patrick.net

Reality says

Added up altogether, they don't even come to within the same order of magnitude as the vast numbers that Stalinist and Maoist regimes killed in the most recent century in pursuit of "scientific atheism."

As stated in the other thread, Stalin and Maoist were not motivated to kill because of atheism any more than they were motivated by mustaches. However, from the Inquisition to the Crusades to 9/11, such attacks were motivated by religion as are the violations of civil rights like DOMA.

The only point you can make, and one that has never been disputed, is that an state without religion can be tyrannical. But the point I've made, which you have yet to even address, is that religion adds to the tyranny of a state, it never subtracts from it. A state that isn't oppressive must be one free from the influence of religion, plain and simple.

Mick Russom says

, there is the other side, the family and community and grass roots side, and this and its goodness are always ignored.

None of those things are intrinsic to religion though. You can strip away all the lies, the lies about deities and miracles and the false history, and what are you left with? Philosophy. Imperfect philosophy, but that's ok.

Once you removed all the lies from religion and boil it down to philosophy, you can debate the philosophy, improve it, revise it as time changes. You still get all the "goodness", all the sense of community, and everything else that was falsely attributed to the religion without any of the evils of the religion.

The problems with religions, all of them, are

1. They are all based on lies and any power structure or philosophy based on lies will become corrupt.

2. They are unquestionable, and if you do question them you are tortured, killed, imprisoned, or exiled from the community. Philosophy doesn't suffer from this defect.

3. Religion can never change. It's based on dogma, not conversation.

4. Since conversation is out of the question, so is rationality. All mistakes or corruption in a religion are maintained forever.

5. People will violently squash competing religions and non-believers. This is rarely the case with philosophy.

6. The particular Bronzed-Age and Iron-Age religions of today have really bad moral codes written by really immoral, sexist, xenophobic, and barbaric people. Yeah, life really has gotten better over the past 2000 years. Society has actually learned a thing or two.

Dan8267 says

As stated in the other thread, Stalin and Maoist were not motivated to kill because of atheism any more than they were motivated by mustaches. However, from the Inquisition to the Crusades to 9/11, such attacks were motivated by religion as are the violations of civil rights like DOMA.

BS. You obviously are too clueless to realize that the 4th Crusade sacked Constantinople, the richest city in all Christiandom at that time, or that the northern crusades waged wars against already converted Christians. Likewise, the Inquisition was carried out with very strong economic motivations: if you owe your Jewish neighbor money, you may have a financial incentive to denounce him! Just like denouncing clandestine clergy men in revolutionary atheistic France. You are kidding yourself if you think those alcohol-drinking stripper-groping alleged terrorists did 9/11 for religion instead of money or personal megalomania.

Stalin and Mao on the other hand did actually mass murder members of all religions precisely because they did not want any religion to compete against their own "Scientific Atheism." Mustache is irrelevant, Stalin and Mao wanted Atheism because they did not want to their own power be checked by any hocus pocus.

Dan8267 says

But the point I've made, which you have yet to even address, is that religion adds to the tyranny of a state, it never subtracts from it. A state that isn't oppressive must be one free from the influence of religion, plain and simple.

You are confusing State vs. Society. In order to maintain a relatively free Society, the State has to be kept in check. Religious devotions on the part of the population can be a strong alternative source of popular power, just look at what profession was Martin Luther King, Jr. when he and his followers marched against the oppressive segregationist State, or for that matter Bejamin Tutu of South Africa.

That's why State promotion of Atheism is inherently very dangerous. You are one of the products of that promotion in the public school brainwashing system in the recent decades.

Reality says

That's why State promotion of Atheism is inherently very dangerous.

I've never argued for state promotion of atheism. I've argued that the state should be culture-agnostic and that the state and the church should be separated by an impenetrable wall. That would make state promotion of atheism or religion impossible. You are arguing against a Straw Man.

However, as a private citizen, I most certainly have the right to inform people of the evils of religion. There are no evils of atheism. Sure there are evils of tyranny, but atheism is simply the rejection of the supernatural including fictitious gods; it is not a political position.

Reality says

You are one of the products of that promotion in the public school brainwashing system in the recent decades.

Once again, your bigotry is apparent and it causes you to make factually incorrect statements. I have never attended a public school in my life. I am a product of the Catholic parochial school system. Oh shit, I guess that blows apart your theory.

Dan8267 says

The problems with religions, all of them, are

1. They are all based on lies and any power structure or philosophy based on lies will become corrupt.

How is the faith in State any different? What's to keep people stick to contracts since it's neigh impossible for the state to enforce every contract? If you are diagnosed with cancer today with 6 months to live, what's to prevent you from going out raping every women you can find and killing everyone else just for kicks? The most the State can impose on you is death penalty, and that usually takes more than 6 months to go through trial and execution process. That's why almost every religion proposes "After-life" . . .

2. They are unquestionable, and if you do question them you are tortured, killed, imprisoned, or exiled from the community. Philosophy doesn't suffer from this defect.

You are describing the actions of the State, not Religion. Atheistic States have actually tortured, killed, imprisoned and exiled from the community far more people on philosophical and political grounds in the past century than all other countries combined.

OTOH, you are quite free to invent your own religion if you wish and try to sell it on the street. If you want to talk about IRS tax status for your new religion, that's again a problem with the State.

3. Religion can never change. It's based on dogma, not conversation.

You can invent new religion, just like inventing any hypothesis or theory. The dogma part comes in when State funding is involved. In that case, even the allegedly scientific community is full of dogma after State funding is involved.

4. Since conversation is out of the question, so is rationality. All mistakes or corruption in a religion are maintained forever.

After involvement of State funding, the dogma persists until the funding mechanism dies. The soviet union had that experience with their weird brand of genetics. We may well be witnessing the same with AGW.

5. People will violently squash competing religions and non-believers. This is rarely the case with philosophy.

Yet, the French revolutionaries chopping off priestly heads, and the Soviet/Chinese/Cambodian anti-religion mass murders were the bloodiest ever for their respective times.

Dan8267 says

However, as a private citizen, I most certainly have the right to inform people of the evils of religion. There are no evils of atheism. Sure there are evils of tyranny, but atheism is simply the rejection of the supernatural including fictitious gods; it is not a political position.

While a private citizen certainly has the right to freedom of expression, "informing people of the evils of religion" makes about as much sense as "informing people of the evils of sex" and probably comes from the same type of sex-deprived loner life experience. Go get laid.

Dan8267 says

I have never attended a public school in my life. I am a product of the Catholic parochial school system. Oh shit, I guess that blows apart your theory.

Now we know your mental problem, as Dodgerfanjohn suspected.

Reality says

How is the faith in State any different?

Who the hell says I have faith in the state? I believe in transparency, not faith.

Reality says

What's to keep people stick to contracts since it's neigh impossible for the state to enforce every contract? If you are diagnosed with cancer today with 6 months to live, what's to prevent you from going out raping every women you can find and killing everyone else just for kicks?

Empirically, beliefs in false gods have not stopped people from committing atrocities especially if they have nothing to lose. However, belief in false gods have caused people to commit atrocities.

If you are arguing that we should lie to the dumb-ass masses about there being a god in order to exercise control over them, history has proven this to be a losing strategy. And I would argue that it is also an unethical one.

Reality says

Atheistic States have actually tortured, killed, imprisoned and exiled from the community far more people on philosophical and political grounds in the past century than all other countries combined.

Stalin and Mao most certainly did not kill and torture people because they were atheists any more than because they had mustaches. The same cannot be truthfully said about theists.

Reality says

That's why almost every religion proposes "After-life" . . .

It is still a lie and an effective one at controlling the masses anyway.

Reality says

While a private citizen certainly has the right to freedom of expression, "informing people of the evils of religion" makes about as much sense as "informing people of the evils of sex" and probably comes from the same type of sex-deprived loner life experience. Go get laid.

Once again you make an assumption based on your warped image of reality rather than on facts. I have never advocated that sex is evil. In fact, had you actually read any of even my most recent posts, you would have seen me arguing with Fort Wayne that there is nothing inherently immoral or evil about sex. Once again, reality blows away your twisted theory.

Perhaps if you would shut up and listen, you would be wrong less often.

Reality says

Dan8267 says

I have never attended a public school in my life. I am a product of the Catholic parochial school system. Oh shit, I guess that blows apart your theory.

Now we know your mental problem, as Dodgerfanjohn suspected.

You made an incorrect assertion and when you got called on it, instead of admitting your mistake like an honest person would, you instead make the opposite and equally incorrect assertion. This shows a complete lack of emotional maturity. Since you are incapable of conversing at an adult level, this conversation is over. And further posts by you on this thread will be deleted. My tolerance for sexually frustrated trolls has its limits.

http://www.x56O4G8VsiA

Reality says

Apparently you aren't able to tell the difference between state-controlled fake religious institutions vs. genuine religious institutions.

Know of any major US religions that pay taxes? I'd say any that apply for special status, are state-controlled fake religions.

Dan8267 says

I am a product of the Catholic parochial school system.

dan are you one of us pagan babies?

re: catholic religious chummin up to the nazies pictures, they remind me of pictures i saw just recently of the current pope francis hanging out with the argentinian junta monsters back in the ’70’s.

coriacci1 says

dan are you one of us pagan babies?

I have no idea what you mean.

coriacci1 says

re: catholic religious chummin up to the nazies pictures, they remind me of pictures i saw just recently of the current pope francis hanging out with the argentinian junta monsters back in the ’70’s.

The Church collaborated with many monsters throughout history. The Nazis are just one example. However, those pictures were posted to refute the ridiculous rewriting of history that Nazism was an atheistic movement.

Vicente says

Know of any major US religions that pay taxes? I'd say any that apply for special status, are state-controlled fake religions.

Do you know any non-profit corporations or organizations that pay taxes? (P.S. Responding that religions are really for profit is a non-answer, as the same can be said for the majority of non-profits).

Paralithodes says

Do you know any non-profit corporations or organizations that pay taxes? (P.S. Responding that religions are really for profit is a non-answer, as the same can be said for the majority of non-profits).

or partnerships or S-Corp since they are all pass through income and tax entities...

the taxation is based on sound reason.. this all escapes the general public which

dont understand the reasons behind our tax laws..

Working Class Warrior.

Social Justice Warriors irritate me, and aren't really liberal since they're obsessed with censoring, creating 'safe spaces' for certain people while excluding others, and marginalizing free speech, which they mock as "Freeze Peach".

Reality says

That's why almost every religion proposes "After-life" . . .

Yeah, where you can be tortured indefinitely for finite deeds, including not obeying the Sky Daddy. Talk about tyranny.Reality says

You are describing the actions of the State, not Religion. Atheistic States have actually tortured, killed, imprisoned and exiled from the community far more people on philosophical and political grounds in the past century than all other countries combined.

See the Inquisition. And witch-burnings.

Play the man, Master Ridley.

The Church and its Believers were so glad of the auto da fe, they even painted earlier Saints like Dominic participating in them. To say nothing of the "Limpieza" in 20th Century Spain and South America.

Dan8267 says

Reality says

If you believe Nazis were Christians, how do you explain their mass killing of Jews who had converted to Christianity? It was Social Darwinism.

bigotry

The old "Fake Convert/Jewish in Disguise" shit. The purpose of the Inquisition wasn't to kill Jews, but to kill converted Jews and take their property - some for the "informer", the rest for the Church. The auto da fe only had authority over Catholics, and was obsessed with Jewish "Conversos" and the veracity of their conversion.