patrick.net

chanakya4773 says

than people fighting against torture/death ?

because we dont have torture to speak of.. you want torture..

go talk to the KGB / Stazzi / North Koreans.. they will talk to you about torture.

Of course the terrorists who have sent videos to the world showing how they decapitate their victims, from ear to ear, is certainly torture many on the left dont talk about.

http://www.thesmokinggun.com/documents/crime/torture-al-qaeda-style

MAY 24--In a recent raid on an al-Qaeda safe house in Iraq, U.S. military officials recovered an assortment of crude drawings depicting torture methods like "blowtorch to the skin" and "eye removal."

Along with the images, which you'll find on the following pages, soldiers seized various torture implements, like meat cleavers, whips, and wire cutters. Photos of those items can be seen here.

The images, which were just declassified by the Department of Defense, also include a picture of a ramshackle Baghdad safe house described as an "al-Qaeda torture chamber." It was there, during an April 24 raid, that soldiers found a man suspended from the ceiling by a chain. According to the military, the victim had been abducted from his job and was being beaten daily by his captors.

In a raid earlier this week, Coalition Forces freed five Iraqis who were found in a padlocked room in Karmah. The group, which included a boy, were reportedly beaten with chains, cables, and hoses. Photos showing injuries sustained by those captives can be found here. (12 pages)
Torture, Al-Qaeda Style

Meccos says

So do you honestly think that he didnt engage in any sexual activity????

As I've said many times, Bill Clinton had plenty of sex with plenty of women. That's not illegal and that's quite frankly none of your business. What Clinton did not do was commit perjury. The entire impeachment was a political move by Republicans and had nothing to do with justice. The Republicans were abusing our court systems for political gain, plain and simple.

chanakya4773 says

The Question should be : Why are there more people fighting for equal marriage rights to gay couples than people fighting against torture/death ?

Every citizen should be fighting for both. Yes, the human rights violations are far, far worse, but the civil rights violations are hardly tolerable as well.

thomaswong.1986 says

No not a USA drone attack...your posting lies... that was from Sabra and Shatila some 30 years ago.

A lie is an intentional deception. You are full of shit when you claim that I am lying. I simply don't believe in that strategy as things are clearly verifiable in the Internet age. So, like always, you are talking bullshit.

As for your claim that the particular photograph is not the result of a drone strike, I cannot confirm or deny that claim based on the reverse image search I just did.

However, I got the image from doing a Google Image search on children killed in drone strikes. It was the very first image and the title of the image is "children-killed-drone-strike.jpg". Perhaps the photo name and Google search turned up misinformation, but to claim that I lie is utter bullshit and speaks more of the accuser than it does of me. Clearly, I've had reasonable reason to believe the photo to be of drone strike victims. The page on which the photo appears is titled Children killed by drone strike.

But even if that photo was mislabeled by the site above, and even if that site is completely wrong, for you to argue that children have not been killed by U.S. drone strikes is a bold face lie.

A List Of Children Killed By Drone Strikes In Pakistan and Yemen

Some Afghan kids aren’t bystanders

A recent Marine Times article ran the alarming headline “Some Afghan kids aren’t bystanders” on December 3, reporting on the death of three children in Afghanistan. They were apparently targeted by a U.S. military drone because they appeared to be digging a hole in a road. Three individuals hit were 12, 10 and 8.

U.S. Drone Strikes Have Killed 176 Children in Pakistan Alone

U.S. drones are killing children and terrorizing families abroad. Earlier this year, the Bureau of Investigative Journalism found that 176 children have been murdered in Pakistan alone. And along with drone attacks, an average of 4.8 children are killed per day in Afghanistan where earlier this year, a U.S. sergeant is reported to have killed 9 children.

You want to challenge me on whether or not shitloads of children as young as one-year-old have been killed by U.S. drones? Go ahead. I've got mounds of evidence.

thomaswong.1986 says

go talk to the KGB / Stazzi / North Koreans.. they will talk to you about torture.

Of course the terrorists who have sent videos to the world showing how they decapitate their victims, from ear to ear, is certainly torture many on the left dont talk about.

Ah, the old excuse, "other people do bad things, therefore we should be allowed to do bad things too without being criticized or held accountable".

Yes, I know scumbags in other countries torture. As an American citizen, there's nothing I can do to hold those politicians accountable. However, I sure as hell can hold the politicians in my country accountable for the torture they support by voting their asses out of office. And that is a moral imperative.

By the way, it's pretty hard to fix problems in other countries when those same problems are running rampant in your own. Who was it that said

How can you say to your brother, 'Brother, let me take the speck out of your eye,' when you yourself fail to see the plank in your own eye? You hypocrite, first take the plank out of your eye, and then you will see clearly to remove the speck from your brother's eye.

I'm sure I read that in a book somewhere. Can anyone recall the name of that book? I think it had a black cover.

Dan8267 says

I've got mounds of evidence.

Typical mound of shit more like it.

Dan8267 says

As for your claim that the particular photograph is not the result of a drone strike, I cannot confirm or deny that claim based on the reverse image search I just did.

another bullshit lie. You should check your sources before posting... there is plenty of staged photos coming from Arabs of so called atrocities.. They will shot their own and say we did it.

Dan8267 says

You want to challenge me on whether or not shitloads of children as young as one-year-old have been killed by U.S. drones? Go ahead. I've got mounds of evidence.

How many children died in 9/11 ? Any concern over them... any concern how many
more IN THIS COUNTRY will get killed while douch bags like you look the other way...

I guess DEAD AMERICANS is OK in your Book...

Dan8267 says

As I've said many times, Bill Clinton had plenty of sex with plenty of women. That's not illegal and that's quite frankly none of your business. What Clinton did not do was commit perjury. The entire impeachment was a political move by Republicans and had nothing to do with justice.

in the company's offices
during company hours
with the companys staff

did I miss something or had this been in private industry, Billy Bob would had been packing his stuff and walked out of the building with a security guard...

"HP CEO Mark Hurd Resigns After Sexual-Harassment Probe"

yes ...if it applies to every worker... sure applies to Billy Bob.

http://www.UEmjwR0Rs20

since when is he above the law ?

and yes, it is my business ! I am fucking paying for it! I am the tax payer !

Public trust ... not his strong side.

... yes ... he lied when he actually came out and admitted he did have sex with her.

thomaswong.1986 says

Dan8267 says

I've got mounds of evidence.

Typical mound of shit more like it.

Again, are you challenging the fact that U.S. drone strikes have killed children? Are you challenging the links I posted which list children who died in drone strikes?

I guess any evidence that counters your lies is, by definition, bullshit.

thomaswong.1986 says

another bullshit lie.

I have more than demonstrated the complete lack of dishonesty on my part including walking through the mechanics of how I got the picture. But you know what, you picked on only one of many pictures I posted and you still haven't shown that my point was incorrect. My case that U.S. drone strikes have killed children does not rest on a single photograph as all the links you chose to ignore demonstrate.

thomaswong.1986 says

How many children died in 9/11 ? Any concern over them... any concern how many

more IN THIS COUNTRY will get killed while douch bags like you look the other way...

I guess DEAD AMERICANS is OK in your Book...

What a fucking bullshit Straw Man argument. To suggest that I ever said anything even remotely close to "dead Americans is OK in my book" is the biggest fucking lie you have ever told, and you've told some whoppers.

Furthermore, to suggest that murdering foreign children who had nothing, whatsofuckingever to do with 9/11, many of whom weren't even born in 2001, is okay because 9/11 was wrong is a purely evil philosophy. And quite frankly, anyone who holds such an despicable and grotesque political position should be ridiculed and ostracized by civil society.

Meccos says

Dan8267 says

What Clinton did not do was commit perjury.

Are you serious? He got away with it on a technicality that ruled oral sex was not considered "sex". Also im sure everything stopped at oral sex and sticking cigars up her vagina...nothing else. YUP.

No, Clinton "got away" on the technicality that he didn't commit perjury, which is pretty intrinsic to the charge of perjury. Clinton was asked, "did you have sexual relations with that woman?". As everyone, except dumb ass Republicans trying to entrap a president, "sexual relations" is a euphemism for sexual intercourse not for fellatio. The Republicans should have asked, "did you get a blow job from that woman?". Put simply, the Republicans fucked up at their own game. Clinton's answer was the truth.

Meccos says

Dan8267 says

That's not illegal and that's quite frankly none of your business.

Actually it is illegal. Adultery is illegal and so was lying about it.

Also it becomes everyone's business if you run for political office and decide to cheat and lie about it.

Although there may be adultery laws on the books from the 19th century, such archaic laws would not stand up in court or the Republicans surely would have used them. Furthermore, any such law would be considered Unconstitutional by almost any jury as a violation of the First Amendment. An adultery criminal charge levied against the president would make the Republicans look even more ridiculous than they already did. And it would have backfired on all the Republicans who themselves were committing adultery.

And no, the private sex lives of politicians are not any of your business whatsoever as long as those politicians aren't hypocritically making laws and policies that they themselves are violating, and only Republicans do that.

What you should be upset about is a president lying about another country having weapons of mass destruction or lying about the true reasons for going to war, how much the war is going to cost, and how long it is going to last. You should also be upset about a president lying about water-boarding not being torture or about the government's use of torture on people. You should also be upset about the government lying about who is and who is not a terrorist. Yet, these lies don't seem to upset you.

Meccos says

Dan8267 says

The entire impeachment was a political move by Republicans and had nothing to do with justice. The Republicans were abusing our court systems for political gain, plain and simple.

Sure, it was political. but the democrats never would do such a thing... right?

When they do, I'll be bitching and moaning about them.

Don't fall into the trap of "the other side would do it, so it's ok for us to do it". Only children think like that.

thomaswong.1986 says

and yes, it is my business ! I am fucking paying for it! I am the tax payer !

You literally pay over a billion times as much for wasteful military spending then you paid for Clinton's salary. Get your priorities straight.

Again, if the worst thing you can bitch about Bill Clinton was that he got a blow job in the Oval Office, then you should be damn grateful he was such a great president. The best things I can say about Bush and Obama are far worse than that.

Dan8267 says

Again, are you challenging the fact that U.S. drone strikes have killed children? Are you challenging the links I posted which list children who died in drone strikes?

anyone can post some photo can call it "US Drone Kills Children" including terrorists and their cronies and have no accountability for it are you too stupid to realize that .. or part of the foreign propaganda attack machines..what else is new !

Dan8267 says

Again, if the worst thing you can bitch about Bill Clinton was that he got a blow job in the Oval Office, then you should be damn grateful he was such a great president.

on the job ! with the staff during office hours... Billy Bob wasnt that great of president.. he did nothing .. Clinton inherited the economic fixes from GH Bush that were implemented before he took office.

Just keep on lying Tommy. You're just making your hole deeper.

Dan8267 says

Clinton was asked, "did you have sexual relations with that woman?". As everyone, except dumb ass Republicans trying to entrap a president, "sexual relations" is a euphemism for sexual intercourse not for fellatio. The Republicans should have asked, "did you get a blow job from that woman?". Put simply, the Republicans fucked up at their own game. Clinton's answer was the truth.

He lied and admitted he lied ... see his admission to the public (video above).

Dan8267 says

Just keep on lying Tommy. You're just making your hole deeper.

Your the one pumping Arab propaganda...

I know where my allegiance belongs.

Dan8267 says

What you should be upset about is a president lying about another country having weapons of mass destruction or lying about the true reasons for going to war, how much the war is going to cost, and how long it is going to last.

you sure have a short memory...

as do so many other Liberals... CLINTON ON WMD

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=zp6YmEevHE0#at=18

from the so called Clinton's great presidential term so said ... Dan

Bill Clinton: Clear Evidence of Iraqi WMD Program

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=endscreen&NR=1&v=S0f5u_0ytUs

thomaswong.1986 says

Your the one pumping Arab propaganda...

As I stated, the picture was the very first Google Image search result for "drone strikes kill children", is labeled as such, and appeared on a website about the deaths of children by drones. Furthermore -- and I don't know why I have to repeat this to even an idiot like you -- my case that US drone strikes have killed many children is not dependent on that picture as it is supported by a plethora of evidence, none of which you have the balls to even attempt to refute.

So to accuse me of "pumping Arab propaganda" is an outlandish lie that illustrates just how weak your position is.

thomaswong.1986 says

I know where my allegiance belongs.

Yes, but not to the truth or America. Your allegiance is to the Republican party even when it deliberately sabotages America like it has for the entire Obama administration.

You lie about what Democrats do -- which is stupid because there is more than enough real things to complain about Democrats -- and then you lie about the evils that Republicans do.

But here's your chance to show a little bit of rationality. Name ten terrible things about G.W. Bush's presidency. If you can't do that, then you are a worthless partisan shill.

thomaswong.1986 says

from the so called Clinton's great presidential term so said ... Dan

Bill Clinton: Clear Evidence of Iraqi WMD Program

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=endscreen&NR=1&v=S0f5u_0ytUs

Wow, that video came from 1998, three years before Bush claimed Saddam had WMD and the UN thoroughly disproved that claim repeatedly. I guess that means that Clinton stopped Saddam from getting WMDs without even going to war. You're point is well-made, Clinton was far better than I gave him credit for.

I particularly like the part where Clinton, in his wisdom, said @ 1:45,

But there is no better example, again I say, than the U.N. weapons inspection system itself. Yes, he has tried to thwart it in every conceivable way, but the discipline, determination, year-in-year-out effort of these weapons inspectors is doing the job. And we seek to finish the job.

I also like the part that went

But Saddam Hussein could end this crisis tomorrow simply by letting the weapons inspectors complete their mission. He made a solemn commitment to the international community to do that and to give up his weapons of mass destruction a long time ago now. One way or the other, we are determined to see that he makes good on his own promise.

And, of course, those of us who listen to history rather than trying to rewrite it, will remember that Saddam did not interfere with the U.N. inspectors and that every one of those inspectors said there was no evidence of WMDs in 2001. Oh yeah, and as the Manning Memo shows, Bush planned to invade Iraq regardless of WMDs and, in fact, was pushing for war before the U.N. could say they looked every possible place for WMDs and found none.

Once again, Clinton solves a problem, and Bush created another.

Dan8267 says

But here's your chance to show a little bit of rationality.

you want show... here it is..

you can GO AND BURN IN HELL

along with your Arab terrorist friends and cronies.

Debunking 8 Anti-War Myths About The Conflict In Iraq

http://www.rightwingnews.com/column-2/debunking-8-anti-war-myths-about-the-conflict-in-iraq/

here’s a quote from the 800 pound gorilla of the Democratic Party, Hillary Clinton, that was made on Oct 8, 2002:

“In the four years since the inspectors left, intelligence reports show that Saddam Hussein has worked to rebuild his chemical and biological weapons stock, his missile delivery capability, and his nuclear program. He has also given aid, comfort, and sanctuary to terrorists, including Al Qaeda members, though there is apparently no evidence of his involvement in the terrible events of September 11, 2001. It is clear, however, that if left unchecked, Saddam Hussein will continue to increase his capacity to wage biological and chemical warfare, and will keep trying to develop nuclear weapons. Should he succeed in that endeavor, he could alter the political and security landscape of the Middle East, which as we know all too well affects American security.”

Debunking 8 Anti-War Myths About The Conflict In Iraq

http://www.rightwingnews.com/column-2/debunking-8-anti-war-myths-about-the-conflict-in-iraq/

Saddam Hussein had no ties to terrorism. It’s amazing to me that today in 2005, people are still trotting out that oft-disproven quip. Christopher Hitchens was also apparently surprised when Ron Reagan, Jr. made a similar assertion recently and you may find his response to be most enlightening:

“CH: Do you know nothing about the subject at all? Do you wonder how Mr. Zarqawi got there under the rule of Saddam Hussein? Have you ever heard of Abu Nidal?RR: Well, I’m following the lead of the 9/11 Commission, which…

CH: Have you ever heard of Abu Nidal, the most wanted man in the world, who was sheltered in Baghdad? The man who pushed Leon Klinghoffer off the boat, was sheltered by Saddam Hussein. The man who blew up the World Trade Center in 1993 was sheltered by Saddam Hussein, and you have the nerve to say that terrorism is caused by resisting it? And by deposing governments that endorse it? … At this stage, after what happened in London yesterday?…

RR: Zarqawi is not an envoy of Saddam Hussein, either.

CH: Excuse me. When I went to interview Abu Nidal, then the most wanted terrorist in the world, in Baghdad, he was operating out of an Iraqi government office. He was an arm of the Iraqi State, while being the most wanted man in the world. The same is true of the shelter and safe house offered by the Iraqi government, to the murderers of Leon Klinghoffer, and to Mr. Yassin, who mixed the chemicals for the World Trade Center bombing in 1993. How can you know so little about this, and be occupying a chair at the time that you do?”

Mr. Hitchens is entirely correct. Saddam provided “safe haven” for terrorists with “global reach.” Among them were terrormaster Abu Nidal, Abdul Rahman Yassin, one of the conspirators in the 1993 WTC bombing, “Khala Khadr al-Salahat, the man who reputedly made the bomb for the Libyans that brought down Pan Am Flight 103 over…Scotland,”Abu Abbas, mastermind of the October 1985 Achille Lauro hijacking and murder of Leon Klinghoffer,” & “Abu Musab al-Zarqawi, formerly the director of an al Qaeda training base in Afghanistan” who is now believed to be leading Al-Qaeda’s forces in Iraq.

Without question, Saddam Hussein had extensive ties to terrorism.

thomaswong.1986 says

Dan8267 says

But here's your chance to show a little bit of rationality.

you want show... here it is..

you can GO AND BURN IN HELL

along with your Arab terrorist friends and cronies.

Ah, a perfect demonstration of your maturity level and capacity for rational discourse. I couldn't have made a better argument against your position or against you as a human being than your own post does.

As for me being cronies with Arab terrorists, laugable as that is, it is impossible to rectify that accusation with the statements I made about Arab culture a mere six months ago on this very site, when I compared Western culture to Arabic culture

By the way, there is a correct answer to my question. The correct answer is

Hell NO! Of course we shouldn't respect a cultural or religious belief that girls and women should be murdered for being too westernized, i.e., independent. Some cultures are superior to others. A culture that respects the equality of people regardless of gender is superior to a culture that stones women when the men feel they are getting too independent.

To refresh everyone's memory, I was stating that Western culture is far superior to Arab culture and that we should not respect a culture that practices honour killings. Political correctness has no place when human lives and human rights are on the line.

Of course, I can't exactly be an Arabic terrorist propagandist if I am outspoken against the atrocities in Arabic culture and when I say that our culture is objectively superior. That completely blows away little Tommy boy's theory that I'm in cohouts with the "Arab terrorists" as he calls them. But when does reality every get in the way of thomaswong's writings.

thomaswong.1986 says

Debunking 8 Anti-War Myths About The Conflict In Iraq

Another Straw Man argument. No one is saying Saddam was a good guy. But the fact is that Bush didn't start a war for the sake of rescuing the people of Iraq -- one million of whom Bush killed in this war -- from Saddam. Bush's intentions were evil. He wanted oil. And intentions matter. They matter shitloads when it comes to war.

One cannot serve two masters. One cannot server the cause of freedom and greed. They are mutually exclusive. How the war was executed, how the Iraqi people were treated, how Iraqi exists today can all be traced back to the intentions of G.W. Bush. And guess what... Fucked up intentions leads to a fucked up results. And Iraq today is totally fucked up. It will remain fucked up until we spend a hell of a lot more blood and money under good intentions. And that is the legacy of George W. Bush.

Oh, and if you care so much about Iraq, how much are you willing to spend to rebuild it? $1 trillion? $10 trillion?

Dan8267 says

Our nation lost its moral core the day we said torturing people is OK. I'd much rather live in an America with rampant polygamy than one in which torture is considered acceptable.

I simply cannot understand why consensual sex flares up your morality alert system, but torture, false imprisonment, and drone assassination does not.

I never agreed to torture either. That was the decision made purely by government officials and contractors who were paid to torture. And it was one reason why Bush was and still is despised so much. He was an incompetent right winger.

I think that administration didn't realize that what goes around comes around. The more we torture people, the more they'll hate us. Eventually their children grow up with desire for revenge.

---

Let me share an experience with you Dan, hope you'll find it interesting. Many years ago I had a customer (already passed away), older than I, who migrated here from Israel with his family. Many of his prior generation family members were murdered by Muslim extremists years before, and he grew up with hatred. He hated these people and wanted revenge, and I could see much of his message stuck with his children. Jewish Zionists and Muslims will never get along, there is too much blood between them now.

And my point about that story is that we US got involved into that age old war, into those politics and history of murder and hatred, into that fight between nations that have no reconciliation and now we are suffering because of it. It didn't start with Bush or Obama as you know, but there is sure as hell no easy way out of it now.

FortWayne says

Many of his prior generation family members were murdered by Muslim extremists years before, and he grew up with hatred. He hated these people and wanted revenge, and I could see much of his message stuck with his children.

This is also exactly why drone attacks and invasions cause terrorism and why the Middle East and America are far worse off than before the Iraq war.

FortWayne says

Jewish Zionists and Muslims will never get along, there is too much blood between them now.

On that I disagree. How much blood was spilt between Britain and France during the 100 Year War alone? How horrific were the atrocities committed by white Americans against African slaves and Native Americans? Yet people whose ancestors were mortal enemies can and do co-exist, often as a single society. This has happened countless times throughout history in both the small and large scale.

With every generation, there exists the possibility of not carrying over the hatred and sins of the past, or at least diminishing those hatreds. I do not hold it impossible that descendants of Jews and descendants of Arabs cannot co-exist, even intermarry, given enough time. Secularization would greatly speed up this process. The replacement of religious beliefs with scientific education would bury past conflicts in the past.

Dan8267 says

On that I disagree. How much blood was spilt between Britain and France during the 100 Year War alone? How horrific were the atrocities committed by white Americans against African slaves and Native Americans? Yet people whose ancestors were mortal enemies can and do co-exist, often as a single society. This has happened countless times throughout history in both the small and large scale.

100 year war is almost a 1000 years ago. People don't remember it anymore, too many generations passed. But I'm sure first several generations of and after the war held onto the memories while it was still fresh.

Middle east is still a fresh battle ground, conflicts, injury and sorrow are still felt today. They are still fighting each other. And you'd need several generations of peace to pass for that to no longer be relevant. I bet it won't happen in our lifetime.

Dan8267 says

How horrific were the atrocities committed by white Americans against African slaves and Native Americans?

How about the Asian so called atrocities against the world.. wipped out half of Europe.
... the Black Plaque came along for the ride with the Mongols.

Native Americans gave the world Syphilis.. several untold millions perished for the next 500 years because of that.

And today.. Slavery of several millions found in Africa and South Asia.

But you keep blaming the ills of the world on whites.... laughable.

Dan8267 says

When they do, I'll be bitching and moaning about them.

Oh the left never politicize anything... when was your last post bitching about the left?

Dan8267 says

Don't fall into the trap of "the other side would do it, so it's ok for us to do it". Only children think like that.

Once again you clearly misread my comments. I have been saying ALL along that both the left and right have issues and I have never justified the wrongs of "the right" because of the wrongs of "the left". My point is that all you do is bitch about the right... You are no independent as you claim as your views are CLEARLY biased.

BTW, you should heed your own advice... unless you are a child, then I suppose it is ok by your own accord.
Dan8267 says

I would argue that as the commander in chief, lying about the reasons for going to war, victimizes a whole world.

The day that Bush, Cheney, Rice, and Obama are hung for crimes against humanity is the day you can reopen the Clinton case.

Dan8267 says

No, Clinton "got away" on the technicality that he didn't commit perjury, which is pretty intrinsic to the charge of perjury.

The fact that the definition of "sexual relations" during that trial did not include oral sex is a technicality and something that most people would disagree with. Hence there is nothing intrinsic about the fact that he didnt commit perjury, but rather only a technicality. If your wife had oral sex with another man and she told you she didnt have "sexual relations" with another person, would you accept that? I doubt it. Everyone understands the nature of the question.... but as I said, he got away with a technicality.

Dan8267 says

The Republicans should have asked, "did you get a blow job from that woman?".

exactly, a technicality. Thanks for proving my point.

Dan8267 says

Although there may be adultery laws on the books

No, there IS a law on adultery and contrary to your belief, it is illegal. THis was my ONLY point. Whether the law is or should be enforced is which another issue to which I have no opinions on.

Dan8267 says

the private sex lives of politicians are not any of your business whatsoever

It is my business if he is lying about under oath... this is the price you pay when you choose to service in public office.

Dan8267 says

What you should be upset about is a president lying about another country having weapons of mass destruction or lying about the true reasons for going to war, how much the war is going to cost, and how long it is going to last. You should also be upset about a president lying about water-boarding not being torture or about the government's use of torture on people. You should also be upset about the government lying about who is and who is not a terrorist. Yet, these lies don't seem to upset you.

Either you are a liar or you do not read correctly...

Like I said, I have and always have been against the wars in the middle east.

Meccos says

I agree... I have been against the wars in the middle east from the very beginning. However do you agree that Bill Clinton committing perjury also should have not gone unpunished? Does one wrong make another wrong ok? This often seems to be your argument...

I am also against the patriot act, against torture, against all the lying done by all public officials regarding terrorism and the wars.

Again my point is that you only seem to see things from one side...

thomaswong.1986 says

How about the Asian so called atrocities against the world.. wipped out half of Europe.

WTF does that have to do with this thread? Are you saying that it's ok for our country to commit atrocities because other countries in history have? What a despicable excuse for a human being you are.

thomaswong.1986 says

But you keep blaming the ills of the world on whites.... laughable.

No, not whites, just racist hypocritical assholes like you.

I'm quite proud of most of Western culture, just not the xenophobic, racist, pro-torture, hypocritical parts that you embody.

Meccos says

Oh the left never politicize anything... when was your last post bitching about the left?

Today

And before that, today in this very same thread

And before that, earlier today

And before that, still earlier today on this very same thread

And before that, shit, still on today and I can only post five links per post.

Meccos says

If your wife had oral sex with another man and she told you she didnt have "sexual relations" with another person, would you accept that?

If my "wife" even romantically kissed another man, I'd have a problem with that even though it's not "having sexual relations". Now, if my wife performed oral sex on another woman, I'd have no problem with that.

Meccos says

exactly, a technicality. Thanks for proving my point.

Hardly, specifics matter when you throw accusations of perjury at someone.

Meccos says

It is my business if he is lying about under oath... this is the price you pay when you choose to service in public office.

Which he didn't. And wouldn't you be upset if the president lied to you and the entire nation even without being under oath?

Are you seriously saying that if you were given the power, you'd have Bill Clinton thrown in jail for lying but you would not throw George W. Bush in jail for lying about the reasons he went to war and Iraq having WMDs? If so, I really can't respect your opinion. Even if Clinton had lied -- which he didn't -- his lie wouldn't have cost over a million lives of men, women, and children and tens of trillions of dollars. Not only are Bush's lies not in the same ballpark, they are not even the same sport.

There are rational reasons to despise a president, and there is simply irrational hatred of someone. I suspect that had the entire case against Clinton been thrown out before Clinton's testimony, you would still hate Clinton. I suspect that if Clinton was a virgin and never looked at a woman, you'd still hate Clinton.

So, come on. Let's be honest. What is the real reason you hate Clinton. Not the bullshit you tell other people. What is the true reason that you despise Clinton with the white hot hatred of a thousand suns? Is it because he was a successful and popular democratic and his legacy still makes republicans look bad?

Meccos says

Either you are a liar or you do not read correctly...

Like I said, I have and always have been against the wars in the middle east.

You seem to be far more vocal on Bill Clinton's penis than any of the atrocities I've mentioned or the wars in the Middle East.

Meccos says

I am also against the patriot act, against torture, against all the lying done by all public officials regarding terrorism and the wars.

Again my point is that you only seem to see things from one side...

Yet somehow, I'm always the only one criticizing both the Bush and the Obama administrations about these things. How is that one sided?

Oh, maybe I'm just on the blame America side, but wait, then why do I blame Middle Eastern culture for things like honor killings. Damn, don't fit into that box either. Why, try again.

Dan8267 says

you'd have Bill Clinton thrown in jail for lying but you would not throw George W. Bush in jail for lying about the reasons he went to war and Iraq having WMDs?

How many times do I have to tell you that I did not agree with wars in the middle east? Do I have to chisel this fact through your thick skull? THis isnt about Bush. He was also a liar... just like clinton was.

Dan8267 says

Even if Clinton had lied -- which he didn't

He did lie. He publicly admitted it and in fact apologized for it.

Dan8267 says

Not only are Bush's lies not in the same ballpark, they are not even the same sport.

I absolutely agree with you... why do you comment on this as if I disagreed? BUSH BAD BAD BAD... Clinton also BAD... does that make sense to you now? Do you understand now?

Dan8267 says

I suspect that had the entire case against Clinton been thrown out before Clinton's testimony, you would still hate Clinton

Dan8267 says

So, come on. Let's be honest. What is the real reason you hate Clinton. Not the bullshit you tell other people. What is the true reason that you despise Clinton with the white hot hatred of a thousand suns?

Before you try to turn this into a conversation about why I hate clinton, be it known that this is more about how you vehemently defend clinton, knowing full well that he was dishonest during his sex scandal trial.

I dislike Bush for MANY reasons.. I dislike Clinton for many reasons also, one being that he LIED... i didnt like his stance on glass steagal. I also didnt like that signed DOMA into law. With the conversation you are having with thomaswong, im sure you would at least agree with that right?

Dan8267 says

Is it because he was a successful and popular democratic and his legacy still makes republicans look bad?

I suppose I might think that way if I was a repub and I hated democrats. Unfortunately I hate both... and I criticize both repubs and democrats when they do stupid things. You on the other hand seem like to lean heavily to the left and typically bash the right, with few exceptions.

Dan8267 says

You seem to be far more vocal on Bill Clinton's penis than any of the atrocities I've mentioned or the wars in the Middle East.

Only because you so vehemently defend him even when it is clear that he was dishonest...

Dan8267 says

Yet somehow, I'm always the only one criticizing both the Bush and the Obama administrations about these things. How is that one sided?

Dan can you honestly tell everyone here that your posts are not biased towards one side?

Meccos says

How many times do I have to tell you that I did not agree with wars in the middle east? Do I have to chisel this fact through your thick skull? THis isnt about Bush. He was also a liar... just like clinton was.

Every politician is a liar. But Clinton is not guilty of perjury simply because he did not volunteer information to the Republicans that was irrelevant to the trial and whose sole purpose was to create a sex scandal to distract voters from the real issues.

If you're going to judge a politician based on his lies, count the dead bodies that result from the lies. Is there any better measurement of the importance of the lie?

Meccos says

Before you try to turn this into a conversation about why I hate clinton, be it known that this is more about how you vehemently defend clinton, knowing full well that he was dishonest during his sex scandal trial.

"Sex scandal trial" -- exactly. And that's why I don't care if Bill Clinton didn't run up and down shouting that he got his cock sucked. It wasn't relevant to the charges of sexual harassment any more than the consensual sexual activities of a rape victim with other men are relevant in a rape trial. Either you understand that or you don't.

I have no doubt that every president that ever was elected was dishonest every single day of his term. And, for someone who has been accused of having way to high of moral and ethical standards for politicians, I really don't care about every single lie a politician tells. I only care about the ones that materially affect people's lives.

Lies that result in a million dead innocents and cost the country trillions of dollars bug me. Lies about the private sex lives of politicians, as long as those politicians are hypocritically passing legislation against activities they are doing themselves, don't bother me.

Tell me how you or anyone else was negatively affected by Bill Clinton not saying "I did have sexual relations with Monica Lewinski, she gave me a blow job and I jizzed all over her dress."? How exactly would your life or anyone else's life -- parasites writing books and tabloid excluded -- would be better if Clinton had said that? That's what I don't get.

And by the way, I'm not defending Clinton insomuch as I'm attacking the ridiculousness of the burn-Clinton-for-lying.

But hey maybe I'm wrong. Perhaps you can explain it better by answering the following questions.

1. What punishment should Clinton get for his answers about Lewinski?
2. What punishment should Bush get for his lies about Iraq having WMDs?
3. What punishment should Bush get for starting the Iraq war?
4. What punishment should Bush and Obama each get for using torture?
5. What punishment should Bush and Obama each get for illegal wiretapping?
6. Is there anything else that Clinton should be punished for?

And please go into the details of why each person should get the punishment you prescribe. And to be fair, I'll go first.

1. None because no the entire situation was a contrived scandal, Clinton didn't commit perjury (technicality matters in legal technical charges), no injustice was done, there was no victim, and the courts should not be used for selfish political purposes.

2. Tar'ed and feathered in public. That's exactly what the historical punishment for this kind of crime would be.

3. The death penalty because starting an unjust war that causes a million deaths is mass murder.

4. They should be forced to watch their children and spouses being tortured to death in the exact same manner their victims were tortured to death. Then they should experience it first hand. Turnabout is fair play.

5. All their property should be confiscated to pay society back and they should be given a 10-year consecutive sentence for each of the 300 million counts of wiretapping. Unfortunately, this sentence would be impossible to carry out and is rather mutually exclusive with number four. Nonetheless, this is how most people would be treated by the courts for mass wiretapping.

6. I have quite a few problems with the Clinton administration, but none that would constitute Clinton committing a crime.

Your turn.

@dan,

speaking of Clinton,... you started this post about gay marriages and how repubs only change their mind when it affects them personally. Do tell us how you feel about Clinton actually being the president that signed DOMA into law... Being how you are sooooo unbiased, I would have expected you to say something about this on this thread by now.

Meccos says

Clinton actually being the president that signed DOMA into law...

has since changed his position on it. The only major party still holding onto it - and spending your tax dollars clinging to it - is the party of John's orange Boehner.