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FortWayne says

Robots can't be persons because they should not matter, as they are artificial creations with no soul.

Artificial vs natural does not matter. If I build a human, atom by atom, is it not a human?

As for the soul, neither you nor I possess a soul as there is no such thing. And if there were such a thing and the Christian afterlife true, then it would be a moral and ethical obligation to kill every baby before it could possibly risk its immortal soul, losing an eternity of bliss and gaining an eternity of damnation. The fact that you do not believe it is a moral duty to kill babies before they can endanger their souls proves that deep down, you do not believe in a soul any more than I do regardless of what you tell yourself when you cannot deal with your own mortality.

Furthermore, we can ask the question of whether or not chimps have souls. If they don't, then what about the common ancestor of humans and chimps? There would have to be a point where a mother has no soul but her child does. And how incredibly cruel would that be? A child who has to spend an eternity bearing the loss of her mother?

The very concept of a soul is fundamentally flaw and the only purpose it serves is to delude people about their own mortality. And that is not a good thing as it causes people to make very bad decisions in life.

Dan8267 says

Artificial vs natural does not matter. If I build a human, atom by atom, is it not a human?

You can't and it's a sort of unrealistic discussion. And yes natural does matter, it matters to me. A vcr will never and should never be as important as a human being. For it has no soul and it is not human.

FortWayne says

You can't and it's a sort of unrealistic discussion.

There is no law of physics that states that a fully functional, living human being couldn't be created atom by atom. Unless there is some law that prevents it, eventually it will be done. But even if it were not practical or "realistic", the mere possibility is enough to illustrate the silliness of the concept of a soul.

Would a cloned human have a soul? Would a sheep cloned from sheep DNA have a soul? Would a creature cloned from both human and sheep DNA have a soul? What percentage of human DNA would you have to use in order for the clone to have a soul, bearing in mind that the majority of sheep and human DNA already overlap?

And, of course, there is absolutely no reason why a fully sentient computer or robot could not be built. In fact, it seems rather implausible that, if humanity doesn't destroy itself, we will not have created a sentient AI within the next thousand years, i.e., less than half the time since Jesus.

And don't forget about chimps, gorillas, and orangutans. We can have conversations with these creatures using American sign language. Are you telling me that these clearly thinking beings don't have souls? They are indisputably sentient beings. What kind of cruel god would cause these sentient beings to cease to exist when they die but allow humans, barely different from chimps, to survive for eternity?

And then there is the problem with the fact that humans are descendant from common ancestors of chimps, gorillas, and all other apes. This means there is no non-arbitrary place where you can start inserting souls into creatures without being cruel to those that just didn't make the cut.

And then there is the problem with extra-terrestrial life, which will run the gamut between mindless bacteria-like creatures to space-faring civilizations. Any attempt to divide these beings into two groups, those with souls and those without, would be entirely meaningless and arbitrary.

The bottom line is that nature is messy, nature is fuzzy, and nature does not organize itself into nice, neat packages that make human classifications of things easy and comfortable for humans. The very concept of the soul was created by human beings fearing their own mortality, but not thinking of or caring about, all the other creatures in the universe. As such, the fictional soul doesn't even stand up to the most rudimentary thoughts about what's actually in the universe.

Let's say I replace each of my neurons, one by one, with an artificial, silicon neuron. I do this by removing a single neuron from my brain and replacing it with an artificial, perhaps even virtual (i.e., software on a chip) neuron and connecting that neuron to the biological neurons that were connected to the neuron being replaced. I do this for each neuron. At the end of the process, I have a completely inorganic brain that is identical to the organic brain that I once possessed. I have the exact same mind, and may very well have been awake and conscious for the procedure.

Do I still have a soul after my brain has been replaced in piecemeal with an artificial one? If not, at exactly what point did I lose my soul and if my new soulless brain decides to commit murder with its body, is that a sin? If I do still have a soul, then what happens if I move my artificial brain to a robotic body? Does it still have a soul then? If not, same dilemma as before. If so, then why wouldn't a being I create by copying my now artificial (possibly virtual) brain not also have a soul? Wouldn't I be, in effect, either creating souls myself or forcing god to create souls?

Can you see now all the problems with the soul mythology? If not, you're still left with the indisputable fact that if the soul did exist, then morality and ethics would demand that we kill all babies in order to save their souls. After all, there is nothing in mortal life that can even remotely compare to an eternity of bliss or an eternity of suffering.

APOCALYPSEFUCK is Shostakovich says

No one will take GOP candidates seriously until their candidates wander around waving automatic weapons shouting that rape is a sacrament.

I thought that was already going on.

Dan's atomic reconstruction scenario sounds like something out of Blade Runner. If the Republicans still exist, I can imagine their platform, banning science and campaigning against replicant marriage. At least in that dystopian future, Republicans could point out that atomically reconstructed or otherwise synthetic replicants aren't "born" and so they would need to be naturalized by legislation in order to qualify for equal protection of the laws under the 14th amendment.

curious2 says

Republicans could point out that atomically reconstructed or otherwise synthetic replicants aren't "born" and so they would need to be naturalized by legislation in order to qualify for equal protection of the laws under the 14th amendment.

In the GOP Blade Runner theocracy, the Bible and Constitution would support having replicants as disposable slave labor. Amendments would be made to support this if needed, and it's unlikely that a GOP Supreme Court would challenge the matter.

Vicente says

replicants as disposable slave labor

Republicans don't need replicants for that, the drug war and life sentences without parole are producing a large supply of prison laborers to undermine union labor.

Vicente says

In the GOP Blade Runner theocracy, the Bible and Constitution would support having replicants as disposable slave labor.

Sad, but true. And this is exactly why the notion of a soul is not simply an academic question. It's not simply a matter of personal, religious beliefs because it materially and gravely affects law.

Already we see that FortWayne's strong opinion that abortion should be illegal from conception is based on the false assumption that humans have souls. That alone is an example of false religious beliefs criminalizing behavior that should not be criminalized. And that alone would be sufficient to rebuke the nonsense of a soul given the importance of the abortion debate.

But that's just the very tip of the iceberg. The fact that we have not outlawed, on the international level, the killing of apes, dolphins, and whales for any purpose is a direct result of this "soul" lie. Sentient beings on our planet right now are being killed in horrifically painful ways because people who believe that a god create humans as special creatures with souls also believe that all other animal life has no intrinsic value and can be morally and ethically slaughtered for mere human convenience.

And if we ever find extraterrestrial life that isn't space-faring, say a Stone Age or Bronze Age culture, you can bet the religious will say those soulless animals can be hunted to extinction and their world stripped for resources.

And when we do create sentient AIs -- and yes, that will happen -- the religious will want them to be slaves.

The fact is that we have reach the technological point where maintaining ethics and morality less evil than Nazi Germany requires that we accept that the soul doesn't exist and that there is a different reason why human life is precious, and that reason is sentience.

curious2 says

Vicente says

disposable slave labor

Republicans don't need replicants for that, the drug war and life sentences without parole are producing a large supply of prison laborers to undermine union labor.

It will be cheaper to maintain or replace a robot than a black man. This is why the army is already trying to replace human troops with robots. You have to feed human troops and each human soldier costs about $20k/yr to maintain. That's just salary. It does not include training and veteran expenses. Robots are way cheaper. That's one reason the military loves drones.

Dan8267 says

There is no law of physics that states that a fully functional, living human being couldn't be created atom by atom. Unless there is some law that prevents it, eventually it will be done. But even if it were not practical or "realistic", the mere possibility is enough to illustrate the silliness of the concept of a soul.

We shouldn't. This is why we have evolution, nature gave us all the tools to evolve. Human meddling into it would be a bad thing in my view because it would be defiled with profit seeking and control.

Dan8267 says

And don't forget about chimps, gorillas, and orangutans. We can have conversations with these creatures using American sign language. Are you telling me that these clearly thinking beings don't have souls? They are indisputably sentient beings. What kind of cruel god would cause these sentient beings to cease to exist when they die but allow humans, barely different from chimps, to survive for eternity?

All living things have a soul, but they are not all human. And our society is created for better existance for all of us, but primarily humans. However, artificial creation such as a vcr or an iphone does not qualify into that. These are mere creations.

FortWayne says

All living things have a soul....

What I find troubling about the Republican position on this issue is, they start with the premise that you have a soul more important than your earthly life, and leap to the conclusion that they must punish you in this life in order to safeguard your soul. Even if you are happy and healthy in your life, and never asked for their help or advice, they must punish you to protect your soul. It's similar to the Inquisition, except re-framed in secular language. If they don't like the person you're married to, they say you're setting a bad example and they must punish you or refuse to recognize you. If you smoke a disfavored type of cigarette, they must punish you for the same reason (pay no attention to the corporate sponsor behind the curtain, i.e. the prison industrial complex). Essentially Republicans contend that (a) you have a soul and (b) they own your soul.

OTOH, the Democrats have responded to this by saying you have a body, which is true, and that they own it and can sell it to their corporate sponsors (Obamacare, Viet Nam draft). In the case of the Viet Nam draft, you had to go there and you might not survive. In the case of Obamacare, they've sold your body to Aetna etc. and you have to pay rent or else they'll penalize you.

So there it is. Republicans want to punish your body to protect your soul, which they claim as their property. Democrats want to tax you to make you pay rent on your body, which they've sold to their corporate sponsors. Neither party seems interested in changing course anytime soon, so the present trend seems set to continue until intervening factors (financial collapse, maybe precipitated by natural disaster or other "unforeseeable" event that we've been warned of for decades) forces both major parties to change course.

Sounds like penises are the real problem.

FortWayne says

See, I grew up with a notion that neither being white or black was cool, race didn't matter. Accomplishing something was cool, you are what you accomplish in life.

We all grew up believing that we believe that.

But when you say things like this:

FortWayne says

Since Obama became president all I see on television is black actors and black celebrities

Then we realize you are seeing race where it does not exist.. On some deep level all of this has you very confused.

The only thing cool about having a black President is that we have gotten to where it is possible. Most people agree that that's cool. But those with a republican bent are far too quick to decide,...."but yeah that doesn't mean he's competant. In fact maybe we are all over reacting to the positive aspect of this. Especially those damn "liberals."

MEanwhile the guy is just a very smart and pragmatic (nearly republican - by 1980 standards) politician with a capital P. And he is presiding over incredibly tough times(great recession or maybe great depression 2) , when the crony capitalism is ingrained and the deep problems are intractable.

And all I hear from the dimbulbs is,... "Darrrrrr.....It's Obama's fault.":

KarlRoveIsScum says

hey moron, life does not begin at conception, it does not!

Truth is we don't know.

KarlRoveIsScum says

YOU Disgusting piece of SHIT!

Forthood is a real nasty piece of work

Why do you have to be that extreme ? I guess it could be argued that I am worse, since my criticisms of the guy are closer to real (less over the top). So I am not one to talk. But do you need to be so absurdly crude and ugly ? It destroys any credibility that you might otherwise have had.

There are only two possibilities. Either you don't want to be credible. Or you are dealing with some significant emotional challenges. I guess a third possibility is that to you this is just some amusing wacky internet character you created.

It makes me want to put you on ignore, and I am someone that agrees with much of your supposed point of view.

marcus says

It makes me want to put you on ignore....

as you ignore already 20 others. It's funny because your own tantrums read like what you complain of about KarlRoveIs...

tatupu70 says

none of those men would be part of today's Republican Party.

because you, an unknown, unnamed poster to a blog says so ..... is it True ?

curious2 says

Republicans don't need replicants for that, the drug war and life sentences without parole are producing a large supply of prison laborers to undermine union labor.

perhaps they are in prison for a reason for the crimes they committed found guilty by a members of the jury. So how do you explain why we have juries who hand out the verdicts.

perhaps a a year in the state penitentiary will change your view on how dangerous to society these inmates are and why they are behind bars.

curious2 says

Essentially Republicans contend that (a) you have a soul and (b) they own your soul.

you mean Republicans contend...

1) you have a soul...
2) the state doesnt own your soul and...
3) you have the right to own a gun to make sure (2) above doesnt happen.

Dan8267 says

The fact that we have not outlawed, on the international level, the killing of apes, dolphins, and whales for any purpose is a direct result of this "soul" lie. Sentient beings on our planet right now are being killed in horrifically painful ways because people who believe that a god create humans as special creatures with souls also believe that all other animal life has no intrinsic value and can be morally and ethically slaughtered for mere human convenience.

That is why we became farmers/ranchers.. who raise cattle far greater in number than nature could provide. fact is we have put intrinsic value on food which will continue to invest and preserve animals for a very long time.

Had a chicken lately... how about some steak or pork.. yep all raised by man and in large quantities ...

You really do Bullshit alot dont you..Dan.. Something you provide in large quantities....

Genesis 9:3 "Every moving thing that lives shall be food for you. And as I gave you the green plants, I give you everything."

Dan8267 says

And if we ever find extraterrestrial life that isn't space-faring, say a Stone Age or Bronze Age culture, you can bet the religious will say those soulless animals can be hunted to extinction and their world stripped for resources.

Right ! just like 16th-century Spanish Dominican friar Bartolome Casas advocated to the Pope who declared human rights for Indians ... 600 years ago.. He was just one of many early proponents of human rights that shaped the modern world. So where were the atheists in all of this ?

If you believe abortion is murder, then you must be willing to have the aborting mother executed for first degree manslaughter. If not, then you are a hypocrit. You can't have it without both. You cannot be dinning at an Ethics Buffet where you get to pick and choose only part of your equation.
Or if you are a Jeffersonian and believe that mothers have more rights than breeding livestock, then that decision is between the mother, her doctor, and her God.

FortWayne says

Yes, because right to life comes before the right to abortion. Life is fundamentally more important.

You have a right to live, angry neighbor next door does not have a right to kill you.

except if you are from iraq, afganistan, pakistan, palestine, siria or any one of more than a hundred countries where "THEY HATE US FOR OUR FREEDOM” let’s not forget all the usa citizens that are gunned down by our obscenely armed cops in our streets because they are guilty of walking while being black, or brown, or transex or whatever.

thomaswong.1986 says

Dan8267 says

The fact that we have not outlawed, on the international level, the killing of apes, dolphins, and whales for any purpose is a direct result of this "soul" lie. Sentient beings on our planet right now are being killed in horrifically painful ways because people who believe that a god create humans as special creatures with souls also believe that all other animal life has no intrinsic value and can be morally and ethically slaughtered for mere human convenience.

You really do Bullshit alot dont you..Dan.. Something you provide in large quantities....

Genesis 9:3 "Every moving thing that lives shall be food for you. And as I gave you the green plants, I give you everything."

Once again, Tommy, your feeble little mind completely misses the point. Yet, in your ignorance, you demonstrate the point quite ironically.

The point was that other ape species, which are clearly sentient beings, are treated as if their lives are worthless because of the soul lie. The lie of the soul has very material, grave, and evil consequences.

FortWayne says

We shouldn't. This is why we have evolution, nature gave us all the tools to evolve. Human meddling into it would be a bad thing in my view because it would be defiled with profit seeking and control.

Whether or not we should create human life from scratch is irrelevant to the thought experiment. The fact that we can, even in principle, is enough to demonstrate the plot holes in the "soul" mythology.

FortWayne says

All living things have a soul

Including maggots? Bacteria? Biological viruses? Computer viruses?

Even if we accept that the premise that all maggots go to heaven, all you've accomplished is pushing the question from "do humans and thus fertilize eggs have souls" to "what constitutes 'living' and why is 'living' valuable"? I certainly do not value the life of an HIV viron.

But it is self-awareness, not biochemical processes, that make humans and other creatures valuable in of themselves. Or as a great philosopher once put it...

http://www.youtube.com/embed/XMdR9iAflKo

Luminous beings are we, not this crude matter.

KarlRoveIsScum says

marcus says

KarlRoveIsScum says

YOU Disgusting piece of SHIT!

Forthood is a real nasty piece of work

Why do you have to be that extreme ? I

It is not me that is extreme, Forthood has the brain damage.

Forthood is a disgusting piece of shit.

KarlRoveIsScum is a racist troll. His opinion has no weight.

FortWayne is not a troll. Just because you disagree with someone doesn't make that person bad, no matter how strong your opinion.

KarlRoveIsScum says

Dan, the true disingenuous tea partier in you is coming through.

Yes, I'm the first atheistic Tea Partier calling for a 90% cutting in warfare, the prosecution of the Bush administration, and raising taxes on the richest 1%. You know, core tea party issues.

This is exactly why KarlRoveIsScum's opinions don't mean jack diddly shit. They come from pure ignorance.

What's really bad is that trolls like Karl disrupt civilized debates like the one that Fort and I were having over whether or not "souls" provide a rational legal basis for outlawing abortion.

Dan8267 says

Yes, I'm the first atheistic Tea Partier calling for a 90% cutting in warfare, the prosecution of the Bush administration, and raising taxes on the richest 1%. You know, core tea party issues.

Actually with the exception of atheism and a split in raising taxes on the 1%, the other 2 points you stated are core tea party issues, or at least were until it got infested by the rusty wing of republicans trying to ride the wave and compromise its goals. There was a time where tea party and occupy where fairly close.

KarlRoveIsScum says

you do not attain a soul at contraception

Well you certainly wouldn't obtain one under this condition!

By the way, people don't have souls, they are souls. In older times, people would speak correctly when they said "he's such a good soul" or "that poor soul".

KarlRoveIsScum says

Dan8267 says

Yes, I'm the first atheistic Tea Partier

I know, your a contradiction

Another way to look at it is that reality contradicts what you write.

KarlRoveIsScum says

Go fuck yourself

Oh, I wish I could. I've been told many times that I am a wonderful and skillful lover.

KarlRoveIsScum says

Needless to say you two fools cannot come to a conclusion.

Like all simple minds, you miss the point. The conclusion is secondary. What really matters is the thought process.

KarlRoveIsScum says

Seriously, shut the fuck up! Idiots.

Feel free to put us on ignore, or leave Patrick.net forever. You have not contributed constructively to any conversation. You will not be missed.

mell says

Actually with the exception of atheism and a split in raising taxes on the 1%, the other 2 points you stated are core tea party issues, or at least were until it got infested by the rusty wing of republicans trying to ride the wave and compromise its goals. There was a time where tea party and occupy where fairly close.

The Tea Party that idiot Karl talks of is the one fabricated by Fox News. They have always been pro-warfare and pro-Bush.

When given the chance to cut warfare spending, which is the vast majority of discretionary spending, the elected Tea Party representatives chose to save warfare spending at all costs. Wanting to eliminate Welfare and Social Security without wanting to cut war spending does not make one a fiscal conservative; it makes one a class warfare participant fighting against the poor.

Dan8267 says

Wanting to eliminate Welfare and Social Security without wanting to cut war spending does not make one a fiscal conservative; it makes one a class warfare participant fighting against the poor.

Nice! I like that I'm writing that one down.

Dan8267 says

mell says

Actually with the exception of atheism and a split in raising taxes on the 1%, the other 2 points you stated are core tea party issues, or at least were until it got infested by the rusty wing of republicans trying to ride the wave and compromise its goals. There was a time where tea party and occupy where fairly close.

The Tea Party that idiot Karl talks of is the one fabricated by Fox News. They have always been pro-warfare and pro-Bush.

When given the chance to cut warfare spending, which is the vast majority of discretionary spending, the elected Tea Party representatives chose to save warfare spending at all costs. Wanting to eliminate Welfare and Social Security without wanting to cut war spending does not make one a fiscal conservative; it makes one a class warfare participant fighting against the poor.

Agreed, they sold out when they got elected. Not uncommon..

mell says

Agreed, they sold out when they got elected. Not uncommon..

Sold out implies that they were planning on cutting warfare spending while running for office. I don't believe that for a second.

mell says

Agreed, they sold out when they got elected. Not uncommon..

I think both parties are not sell outs. They both know who their target "audience" is. They have firms do research to see what riles up their base and all they care about is getting elected and enjoying the trappings of power. if they lose the next cycle-they have health care, pensions and become lobbyists-waitng for the next favorable cycle. Everything they say is targeted to their base, backed by research.

It is a game for them. Even Obama-he lit the birth control fire just in time for the election. Now I don't know if they fell for the trap or the repubs just used it to rile up the bases. But this is just a game. I was reading that even those megachurches hire MBAs to help them target their flock and increase revenue. It is just a carrer path, like us. As we strive to be employable, so do they-they just have the morals of pigs-no insult to pigs .

marcus says

We all grew up believing that we believe that.

But when you say things like this:

But marcus that is because that is all they are showing on the television these days.

Media is ran by media templates, and they constantly sell the "cool". And this race based cool bothers me, because it's on a few specific channels, and because it shouldn't exist that way.

Dan8267 says

Whether or not we should create human life from scratch is irrelevant to the thought experiment. The fact that we can, even in principle, is enough to demonstrate the plot holes in the "soul" mythology.

Every generation has it's limitations or our own barriers. For me, and I do think my generation it is this distinction. I've read somewhere that humans can be created via test tubes in laboratories. That is a different world to me. If it's a human being it should have the right to life. But a mechanical soulless creation such as a VCR should not.

How is that?

Dan8267 says

Including maggots? Bacteria? Biological viruses? Computer viruses?

Even if we accept that the premise that all maggots go to heaven, all you've accomplished is pushing the question from "do humans and thus fertilize eggs have souls" to "what constitutes 'living' and why is 'living' valuable"? I certainly do not value the life of an HIV viron.

Hmm.... I have to think about this one.

Dan8267 says

When given the chance to cut warfare spending, which is the vast majority of discretionary spending, the elected Tea Party representatives chose to save warfare spending at all costs.

As President Obama deploys a missile shield to protect the US from the Korean launch...

guess it was a good idea we had spent the money on it after all.

or how about detecting and responding to the Russian subs 300 miles off the east coast.

November 6th, 2012
03:05 PM ET
Navy detects Russian sub off U.S. East Coast

By Mike Mount

The U.S. Navy detected and tracked a Russian nuclear-powered attack submarine less than 300 miles from the southern U.S. East Coast last month, according to U.S. defense officials.

While the submarine did not enter U.S. territorial waters or follow any U.S. Navy ships, its arrival came while a Navy carrier strike group was training off Florida, according to defense officials who could not speak publicly because of the sensitivity of the issue.

The move by the Russians to put the ship close to the U.S. demonstrates its desire to ramp up deep-water patrolling by its submarine fleet - something the Russian government has said it would do, officials said.

The newer Sierra-2 submarine is thought to be part of the Russian Northern Fleet, and this is the first time this class of sub has been detected this close to the U.S., the officials said.

Dan8267 says

Once again, Tommy, your feeble little mind completely misses the point. Yet, in your ignorance, you demonstrate the point quite ironically.

.

you forgot to copy my point.. we are infact conserving our food source !

so i repeat...

"That is why we became farmers/ranchers.. who raise cattle far greater in number than nature could provide. fact is we have put intrinsic value on food which will continue to invest and preserve animals for a very long time.

Had a chicken lately... how about some steak or pork.. yep all raised by man and in large quantities .."

Dan8267 says

The point was that other ape species, which are clearly sentient beings, are treated as if their lives are worthless because of the soul lie. The lie of the soul has very material, grave, and evil consequences.

no we dont treat their lives as worthless.. go to a zoo..fact is provide that they have a very comfortable life.. hardly evil.

FortWayne says

For me, and I do think my generation it is this distinction. I've read somewhere that humans can be created via test tubes in laboratories. That is a different world to me. If it's a human being it should have the right to life. But a mechanical soulless creation such as a VCR should not.

How is that?

Commercial media hype various stories, and around 30 years ago it was hand-wringing over "test tube babies," many of whom have since grown up to become healthy adults. They were conceived in laboratories, then implanted as embryos, and born in the usual way, at which point they became "born" within the meaning of the 14th Amendment and thus citizens entitled to the equal protection of the laws. At some point, one can imagine a Brave New World scenario, which might perhaps require legislation to naturalize citizens who were not born in the usual sense, although Shakespeare already anticipated that in Macbeth, where Macduff was not "of woman born" but rather was "untimely ripped" from his mother's womb, i.e. delivered by Caesarean section. Returning to the OP, Republicans have become mired in religious fundamentalism, which alas tends to devolve into stopping up their ears and saying "make it stop," or even revert to the Bronze Age. The irony is some of the same people used to say "America, love it or leave it," when in fact the belief in religious fundamentalist theocracy fits better with Muslim countries: vets returning from Afghanistan say it was like fighting in the Bible because people there continue to live that way and want to return to it. The world doesn't stop turning, we can't stop progress, America especially is built for scientific progress, the Constitution expressly authorizes the promotion of "science and the useful arts" and prohibits establishment of religion. It was no coincidence that America was first to the moon, first with a polio vaccine, first even to figure out what we know about earthquakes. The Republican rejection of progress wouldn't work anyway, it would only cause America to be "left behind" (to borrow a phrase from the rapture believers), allowing other countries to surpass ours. Republicans sell fear of anything different (test tube babies, gay marriage, whatever), but most people see Republican policies themselves as the larger threat, with the endless wars and division and deficit spending. (In that latter category, neither major party alone seems able to balance a budget, America hasn't had a balanced budget since Clinton with a Republican Congress.)