patrick.net

Welfare is something that the right wing overlords want, very much, because all they care about is short term increases in their wealth. Welfare is actually backdoor welfare to corporations. It allows them to pay employees less than the cost of living, insisting often on part timers (this was just as big before Obamacare as after, as Mish proved the other day).

It also allows those same poor people and others who are unemployed to consume - contributing significantly to GDP and corporate profits.

Cheaper employees

Higher profits

That's what the corporations get in return for the taxes that come in large part from individual income taxes for welfare and food stamps.

It's really welfare for the corporations.

I guess if you spend it on prisons, then it goes even more directly to certain corporations (the prison industrial complex). The food is still purchased to0.

Neither of these are particularly good channels for our tax dollars.

edvard2 says

for me its actually cheaper.

Lucky you. IMMV. On balance, the legislation increases total medical spending (which is the point), but shifts it around so much that it's difficult for people to keep track.

edvard2 is still confused.

If more Conservatives get married than Democrats, logic would suggest that they would also have a higher divorce rate. Not a tricky concept.

Besides, since Republicans are wealthier than Democrats and Independents and have a more robust family and social support structure outside of government welfare, I really don't care about divorce rate as long as the people getting divorced aren't hurting children or being a drag on society.

http://www.gallup.com/poll/157010/republicans-greater-access-basic-necessities.aspx

You really think it is preferable to not get married and still have kids? I think it is far far better that there is a divorce so at least the State can force the father or mother to pay child support.

GRACE123 says

Why has this turned into a fight between Republicans and Democrats?

The reason it turned into a fight was because neither side cooperated with one another over it. A MUCH better law could have easily been drafted. But instead since neither side would even talk to each other, we got the law we have.

As far as costs, well my parents too pay about $700-$800 a month and that's with my mom's plan through the public school system. Of course this isn't right nor does it make sense. We pay more for insurance than any other first world country. We have some of the lowest standards of health insurance. Its totally ridiculous.

Is the Obamacare plan good? No, and not by a long shot. But the important part is that "something" was passed and with that will hopefully come changes and improvements to it so that it will become both more affordable and effective so long as the GOP doesn't try to stop it.

socal2 says

edvard2 is still confused.

If more Conservatives get married than Democrats, logic would suggest that they would also have a higher divorce rate. Not a tricky concept.

I'm not confused at all. You lost the argument a long time ago and are being a sore loser. Its over.

edvard2 says

Is the Obamacare plan good? No, and not by a long shot. But the important part is that "something" was passed and with that will hopefully come changes and improvements to it so that it will become both more affordable and effective so long as the GOP doesn't try to stop it.

You lost me with the third sentence. If a house is on fire, and you pour gasoline on it, you've done something, but I don't see it as helpful. If other people try to stop you from pouring gasoline on it, you can get mad at them for not helping, but that isn't an excuse for making things worse. What was passed was legislation to increase spending, which is what the two major parties agree on, even though one of them uses words like "affordable" to fool you.

socal2 says

If more Conservatives get married than Democrats, logic would suggest that they would also have a higher divorce rate. Not a tricky concept.

Apparently it might be.

A divorce rate is a percentage of marriages that end in divorce. Comparing the divorce rates for groups is not affected by the size of the groups, unless one group is so small (say double digit small) that the rate isn't even predictive or meaningful.

All's I know is that there used to be PLENTY of fiscal conservative Democrats. Now there are none. Don't give me the bullshit answer on the blue-dog democrats. Those reps, the small # of them, are a rounding error.

Today, if you even question the unsustainable outrageous social/welfare spending, you are instantly labelled a racist. Listening to satellite radio in my new (to me) car, I heard some idiot comedian ranting/projecting that those who oppose obamacare, are angry racists, imitating them by yelling the 'n' word constantly. No, we aren't angry because we are racists. We're angry because, in Max Baucus' own words, is that obamacare is an idiotic, fuckin' trainwreck.

Do those that still champion Obamacare not read the economic reports from the CBO, and other reputable sources. Tons of full-time workers being forced into part-time work. Shit, just read the latest on the UPS workers. I still haven't heard a legit answer as to why if obamacare is so great, why all the waivers? Waivers for industrial groups, unions (now turning on obama), congressmen and staff. Hell, even entire fuckin' states like Maine.

Are you liberals still backing this lame horse that hasn't even gotten out of the gate? I'm no racist. I'm a realist.

socal2 says

Why do you suppose illegitimacy rates have skyrocketed despite abortion, birth
control and sex-ed being more available now than at any time in human history??

an inconvieniant truth

Truly we should EXCORIATE all men who father bastards. Let's start by removing George Washington, Thomas Jefferson, and Benjamin Franklin from all public discourse. They after all set a very bad example in this regard.

AverageBear says

All's I know is that there used to be PLENTY of fiscal conservative Democrats. Now there are none.

This is bullshit.

All I know is that ever since Obama came in, all the republicans are supposedly all about fical resonsibility.

But back before everything was broken (yes that's right it's broken now. with the liquidity trap, high unemplyment,..etc....look in to it), but before things were broken, when there was actually the opportunity to be truly fiscally responsible ?

That's when the republicans said: "you know what let's do ? Let's give the social security surplus to the rich in the form of tax cuts (because you know,....it's our money), and then a little later,...let's have these wars be off the books so that we can continue to have those tax cuts without admitting that we can't afford them. And so on.

Obama put the wars back on the books (fiscally irresponsible asshole that he is).

And you want to talk about fiscal responsibility ?!!!

(suggestion: whatever you do don't take this in. You can't handle the truth).

AverageBear says

Tons of full-time workers being forced into part-time work.

That's a total lie. Even Mish admits it.

http://patrick.net/?p=1228238

Well he doesn't really admit it. HE tried to say that the aggregate data somehow doesn't show what's really going on. But I think it's his back handed way of admitting that your claim is total bullshit. Not that you care about reality or the truth. We all know your type. MAybe you aren't interested or capable of doing analysis or critical thinking on your own. Propaganda is easier and fun too, right ?

AverageBear says

Do those that still champion Obamacare not read the economic reports from the CBO, and other reputable sources. Tons of full-time workers being forced into part-time work. Shit, just read the latest on the UPS workers

O.K., I googled "UPS workers" and "Obamacare", and discovered that they are no longer going to insure some spouses, but ONLY THOSE WHO HAVE INSURANCE AVAILABLE FROM THEIR OWN EMPLOYER. So they aren't losing their insurance, they just aren't getting insurance from 2 different employers at the same time. So what exactly is the problem there? Of course none of the headlines are honest; the headlines just leave out the part about these spouses already having their own insurance available.

I don't see anything at all about UPS cutting anyone's hours. You'll have to explain that one.

Homeboy says

O.K., I googled "UPS workers" and "Obamacare", and discovered that they are no
longer going to insure some spouses, but ONLY THOSE WHO HAVE INSURANCE AVAILABLE
FROM THEIR OWN EMPLOYER. So they aren't losing their insurance, they just aren't
getting insurance from 2 different employers at the same time. So what exactly
is the problem there?

Because our President said at the time he was trying to sell Obamacare:

“First of all, if you’ve got health insurance, you like your doctors, you like your plan, you can keep your doctor, you can keep your plan. Nobody is talking about taking that away from you.”

http://abcnews.go.com/blogs/politics/2009/07/president-obama-continues-questionable-you-can-keep-your-health-care-promise/

socal2 says

“First of all, if you’ve got health insurance, you like your doctors, you like your plan, you can keep your doctor, you can keep your plan. Nobody is talking about taking that away from you.”

Doubling your current premium serves the same purpose as taking away your current insurance plan.

socal2 says

The same liberals who are saying "what harm is it to allow gay people to get married" were saying "what harm is it to have a good single mother raise children with State support".

You're full of shit. Those are OPPOSITE issues. Liberals want gay people to be able to get married, thus forming 2 parent families. It's the conservatives who want them to remain single.

socal2 says

“First of all, if you’ve got health insurance, you like your doctors, you like your plan, you can keep your doctor, you can keep your plan. Nobody is talking about taking that away from you.”

Obamacare didn't take anybody's plan away. UPS did, and all they said was that spouses don't need TWO insurance plans. So who is losing their insurance? Nobody.

Employers have ALWAYS had discretion to change what coverage they offer their employees. If you took Obama's quote to mean that no employer will ever change anyone's policy, ever again, you are an idiot. Plenty of changes were made to employer healthcare before Obamacare was even talked about. When Obama said "you can keep your plan", he meant you aren't going to be forced onto some socialized government program. OBVIOUSLY he didn't mean every insurance policy will exist in its exact present form for eternity. Duh.

Homeboy says

Liberals want gay people to be able to get married, thus forming 2 parent
families.

no family comes from two male sodomite deviants unless they name their turds.

I think Bap33 started to get a chubby in the locker room in high school. He couldn't handle the cognitive dissonance so he flipped out.

homeboy's mom did her best to keep me on empty ... no worries.

Bap33 says

homeboy's mom did her best to keep me on empty ... no worries.

Well, your head is empty anyway. Anybody who is as scared of gays as you are must be having some conflicting feelings. When your friends said, "Mary Ann or Ginger?", you were thinking "Gilligan", huh?

you are gay bashing now? interesting.

Fap33, don't worry about Gilligan, we know you had your heart set on the Skipper.

What I don't understand is, what does your ridiculous comment about Homefool's mother have to do with Obamacare. You don't even know what her opinion of that legislation might be.

Perhaps what scares Republicans about Obamacare is, it's less scary than they are. Given a choice between Obamacare and Bop69's pathetic self-loathing bigotry, people who oppose both settle for the lesser of two evils, and most voters choose Democrats.

Bap33 says

you are gay bashing now? interesting.

Nope, you're the gay basher. I just think there's got to be a reason for your irrational hatred of gay people. You need to come out of the closet; you're not fooling anyone.

marcus says

AverageBear says

All's I know is that there used to be PLENTY of fiscal conservative Democrats. Now there are none.

This is bullshit.

So where are these fiscal democrats? I'd love to look at your list, and see how they voted...

Homeboy says

AverageBear says

Do those that still champion Obamacare not read the economic reports from the CBO, and other reputable sources. Tons of full-time workers being forced into part-time work. Shit, just read the latest on the UPS workers

O.K., I googled "UPS workers" and "Obamacare", and discovered that they are no longer going to insure some spouses, but ONLY THOSE WHO HAVE INSURANCE AVAILABLE FROM THEIR OWN EMPLOYER. So they aren't losing their insurance, they just aren't getting insurance from 2 different employers at the same time. So what exactly is the problem there? Of course none of the headlines are honest; the headlines just leave out the part about these spouses already having their own insurance available.

I don't see anything at all about UPS cutting anyone's hours. You'll have to explain that one.

Homeboy, my apologies. I got a couple of news stories mixed up during that day. (FT > PT of UPS workers). The fact that UPS is cancelling the option of extending UPS's heathcare plan to spouses is a direct response to Obamacare. You may not think it's a big deal. Losing an option on how you plan out your family's heathcare coverage is a big deal....

http://news.investors.com/ibd-editorials/082113-668333-obamacare-delivers-bad-news-to-ups-workers.htm

..."Rising medical costs, "combined with the costs associated with the Affordable Care Act, have made it increasingly difficult to continue providing the same level of health care benefits to our employees at an affordable cost," UPS told its employees in a memo.
As Kaiser Health News reports, many of these spouses will end up on worse health plans.
This is just the beginning. While almost no large companies excluded spouses from coverage three years ago, 6% did last year, according to Mercer. And many others are making such coverage exorbitantly costly in the hope that spouses will drop it on their own.

The shift is already happening folks....

AverageBear says

So where are these fiscal democrats?

Obama is fiscally conservative. He put the wars on the books. That's right, wars that had hidden costs before he got there, he got these in to the budget.

He has presided over lower increases in spending than any president in recent decades.

Sure there are plenty of right wingers who are financially and logically illiterate who will try to blame deficit increases on Obama and who will spend the rest of their lives denying that the real cause of the recent record breaking deficits was reduced tax revenues due to the depression relative to federal spending levels that were established before Obama got in to office.

AverageBear says

The fact that UPS is cancelling the option of extending UPS's heathcare plan to spouses is a direct response to Obamacare.

Bullshit. Their profits were already way down.

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424127887324783204578623522570875096.html

Obamacare is just the scapegoat, as usual.

AverageBear says

You may not think it's a big deal. Losing an option on how you plan out your family's heathcare coverage is a big deal....

Not as big a deal as millions of people not being able to get health insurance AT ALL, which was the case before Obamacare. UPS decided to cut benefits; Obamacare did not. They are full of shit to blame it on Obamacare.

The fact is 60% of the population will get Obamacare for free. Now, get back to work loser.

"fact is 60% of the population will get Obamacare for free. Now, get back to work loser."

this is true. My family is from Massachusetts. (Romenycare) My deadbeat sister, her husband and brother pay nothing for superb healthcare. Never, ever see a bill. My girlfriend, who makes 35,000 a year (also 55) pays $550 pr month and a % of her medical bills when she goes to a doctor. I suppose someone has to pay to pay for it. Unfortunately, the working middle class will carry the burden.

GRACE123 says

Unfortunately, the working middle class will carry the burden

How do you think it works now ?

The only differences are: now (or before Obamacare) we all pay indirectly for overpriced ER treatment that should have been addressed sooner and for far less. When more people are covered, a lot expensive outcomes can be avoided by preventative care and by catching things sooner and treating them sooner. Take diabetes for example. It's far more expensive if you defer treatment until various surgeries and major critical care problems are occurring.

Marcus regurgging the preventative care meme

Imagine that

You know what a much simpler solution to diabetes would be? Maybe if the usfedgov came out and apologized for suggesting the populace eat 12 servings of breads, grains, and cereals every day while avoiding animal fats and proteins. Seeing as how that is the root cause for diabetes, along with a littany of other expensive health problems western dieters suffer from

Just be honest and share the science behind nutrition. Inform people of all the health issues that arise from being a good little statist psycophant that does what they're told unquestioningly, and eats the anti_evolutionary diet recco'd in the food pyramid.

The majority of these so called health care issues would just go away,,,,,

New Rules!!!!!

Liberals have to stop hiding behind pseudo science to hijack the health narrative for political and monetary gain. In fact, they aren't allowed to even mention Science or talk about health, until they acknowledge that the biggest factor in determining people's overall health and how well they will age, is determined by "Genes".
Of course what you eat or don't eat does have a lot to do with it, but some folks have a good metabolism and some folks do not.

You guys should check shows by Michael Mosley on PBS.

Every single outcome with this seemingly healthy guy suggests that his genes are not cut out to be as fit or healthy as this ideal Left notion of how healthy one can be through diet and exercise.
He also shows it's not what you eat, it's how and when you eat, in relationship to how well your body can metabolize what you ate.

In order for there to be any scientific merit to trying to legislate ones health, first every type of person would have to be identified to how well one responds to exercise, long lengthy work outs, vs short sharp bursts of exorcize that he found in some cases, people benefit more from than a rigid alternate daily work out with a fitness trainer.

GRACE123 says

Unfortunately, the working middle class will carry the burden.

Bullshit. That's the lie the republicans are telling you. If you're middle class, you get a tax credit. A family of 4 has to make $95,000 to not be eligible for the tax credit. That income would put you in the top 23% in the US. That is not middle class by any reasonable definition.

I am curious Homeboy, what is your current situation regarding Health Insurance? You have a very strong opinion, you must be experiencing something different than I am. I can only speak about how my family is being affected. We all come from different circumstances. I think we can agree that the current situation is stressful for many of us. I guess if your healthy you should be thankful.

the game being played is to make sure the payment system is gaurgenteed for those providing the goods and services. That is what is wrong with the entire welfare ideal. What needs to happen is to not promise payment by wealth-tranfer that makes consumers out of non-earners. Instead, allow the providers to "write off" goods and services that they provide to those who refuse to pay. But, also allow the providers to provide reduced value goods and services for the non-paying crowd. Then out-law med insurance in all forms and the providers will be forced to offer goods and services at a competitive price. Do not allow usery to be charged on any med debt. No more pulled-from-thin-air sky high prices based on made up bull crap. And no more gov intervention needed. Docs and Pharm have it made once the promise to pay is on full auto-pilot, removed from whatever small market forces are still in place. This is all a sham, and a shame. No place to hide from the cancer of liberalism.

GRACE123 says

Now we will be forced to buy at these rates even if we decided to take our chances without it

People who take their chances without it are part of the problem, n'est-ce pas? They're like housegamblers playing with other people's money. When it comes time to need it, it's up to the rest of us to pay for the care they'll almost certainly need.

There are accidents, undiagnosed conditions, pregnancies, and so on.

If private insurance is to exist, those non-payers need to pay. That used to be the conservative position.

In any case, I don't suspect you'd be in favor of single-payer, Socialized medicine, Medicare-for-all, or any other system, or are you?

What is the average conservative's answer for our healthcare problem nowadays?

CL that's just being dishonest. How are people that aren't paying AND not using, part of the problem?

Some of us go to great lengths to make sure we don't need to use all those frivolous services

GRACE123 says

I am curious Homeboy, what is your current situation regarding Health Insurance?

I am a member of the middle class (not a rich person who wrongly believes he is in the middle class). I currently have health insurance through my union, but they have raised the threshold of employer contributions so high that I will not qualify for it next year. Obamacare is not the cause - they began doubling and tripling the required employer contributions before Obamacare even started. A previous time that I didn't qualify, I went on COBRA, which cost nearly $500/month for a single person. Also, COBRA is not a permanent healthcare solution. The other year that I didn't qualify, I was able to find a high-deductible plan that I barely qualified for due to my "pre-existing conditions", which is basically ANYTHING. I do not want to live like that; not knowing if I will have healthcare from one year to the next, and with insurers being able to take it away from me whenever they feel like it.

So now tell us what is YOUR situation? Let me guess: You make a six-figure income, and you are mad because some people in the middle class are going to get subsidies and you aren't?