patrick.net

It being passed before it was read.

It was all down hill from there, and a redundancy of a gripe.

All very large program type bills are passed before they are fully read.

Ask yourself this (not that you are the type of person who could suspend their opinion):

If Obamacare turned out to be way less bad than you thought, and even quite good in many ways, would that make you happy or unhappy ?

Of course you are a special case. Like many right wingers, you're willing to swear on a stack of bibles that Obamacare is terrible on every level. You have asserted this so often and to so many, that of course it's success would (or maybe will) make you very unhappy.

Because that would mean you were VERY VERY wrong.

I don't need no stack of bibles.

CaptainShuddup says

I don't need no stack of bibles.

I know. You aren't actually swearing it's bad.

You're just asserting what is you're extremely strong hope that it turns out to be bad.

Like right wingers before you, who thought that social security, and medicare were a mistake, oyu are very likely to be proven worng.

In a way, I hope that you are at right in a way. My hope is still that we figure out a way to get to single payer (ie medicare for all - which would still have supplemental policies).

marcus says

I know. You aren't actually swearing it's bad.

NO! I can testify at the Church of Fuck this shit.
And get an "Amen" from every damn body.

I'd say that's pretty accurate. Believing everything Fox News says IS like a religion for right-wingers.

marcus says

Like right wingers before you, who thought that social security, and medicare
were a mistake, oyu are very likely to be proven worng.

Uh dude - aren't both Medicare and Social Security terribly managed and funded programs that are esssentially Ponzi Schemes?

Aren't Ponzi Schemes considered "mistakes"?

IRT - what are we scared of for Obamacare? I think most of us are scared of Obamacare just becoming a much larger version of Medicare that has more annual fraud and waste than the top 20 insurance company's profits combined.

http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-18560_162-5414390.html

marcus says

if Republicans are so confident Obamacare will end badly, why not just shut up about it?

Well the building is on fire, and if you think it'll end badly why don't you shut up and stop calling the fire department... maybe they are calling because like most Americans we don't want to crash and burn when Obamacare crashes and burns the way the housing bubble did just a few years earlier...

Obamacare is good for you, but not for Obama or anyone in Congress: http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424127887324635904578644202946287548.html?mod=WSJ_article_comments#articleTabs%3Darticle

marcus says

Like right wingers before you, who thought that social security, and medicare were a mistake, oyu are very likely to be proven worng.

Well you know Democrats wanted to keep slavery going, Republicans repealed it actually... but you can cherry pick all you want I suppose if you think it makes your argument look better on paper (lipstick on a pig)...

FortWayne says

Well the building is on fire, and if you think it'll end badly why don't you
shut up and stop calling the fire department... maybe they are calling because
like most Americans we don't want to crash and burn when Obamacare crashes and
burns the way the housing bubble did just a few years earlier...

EXACTLY.

And if we did just shut up and sat on the sidelines watching it fail, they would accuse us of being unpatriotic and not caring for the country.

Instead we tried to send a democratic message to our politicians in organizing and creating a historic wave election in 2010 that put the brakes on Obama's unchecked agenda. And for getting involved in politics, we are called "racist teabaggers" and targeted by venal liberal hacks in the IRS and the Media.

marcus says

But here’s my question: if Republicans are so confident Obamacare will end badly, why not just shut up about it? It’s not like they have the votes to repeal the law

Because this is what politicians do. Just like Dems won't shut up about gun control even though they have no votes to pass it.

As I've said before, the (Obamacare refund) check is in the mail (just in time for the 2014 election).

Is that before of after the premium increase notice?

FortWayne says

Obamacare is good for you, but not for Obama or anyone in Congress: http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424127887324635904578644202946287548.html?mod=WSJ_article_comments#articleTabs%3Darticle

Typical right-wing bullshit. Congress is not trying to "exempt" itself from the law. What happened was, Senator Grassley proposed an amendment to ACA that would require Congress to get their insurance from the exchanges. He did it as a political stunt, trying to embarrass the democrats. But the democrats went ahead and put it in the law. The original Grassley amendment EXPLICITLY stated that the contributions Congress already gets would go to pay for their insurance from the exhanges. But the way the law was written, there now appears to be some ambiguity about how the contributions would be paid. They aren't trying to get out of Obamacare, they just want to fix the ambiguity, so that they don't suddenly go from getting an employer contribution to having to pay the entire cost out of their own pocket.

This meme started by the right that it's "good enough for us but not good enough for them" is nonsense. If your employer already pays for part of your insurance, ACA does not take that away. Completely taking away their insurance is not the "same thing" that will happen to us. We are not having our insurance taken away. I'm no big fan of Congress, but certainly they are entitled to have their employer contribute to their insurance, just like any other full-time worker, aren't they?

Do a little reading and this will become clear:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/wonkblog/wp/2013/04/25/no-congress-isnt-trying-to-exempt-itself-from-obamacare/

http://thinkprogress.org/health/2013/04/25/1923061/how-the-media-invented-the-latest-obamacare-controversy/

Or you can just sit in front of Fox News and drool like you usually do. Your choice.

marcus says

But here’s my question: if Republicans are so confident Obamacare will end badly, why not just shut up about it?

Because repealing Obamacare is Republicans' only policy position that has majority support. Everything else in their platform alienates most people. It's like a realtor trying to sell an overpriced teardown in a bad neighborhood, having to find something appealing to say about it, "Hey there's plenty of on-street parking free." The answer to every question is, "Just think about all that free parking."

Homeboy says

so that they don't suddenly go from getting an employer contribution to having
to pay the entire cost out of their own pocket

lmao ... yep, he wrote it. Outstanding!

Homeboy says

Completely taking away their insurance is not the "same thing" that will happen
to us. We are not having our insurance taken away. I'm no big fan of Congress,
but certainly they are entitled to have their employer contribute to their
insurance, just like any other full-time worker, aren't they

lmao .... this is better than Fox

Bap33 says

lmao ... yep, he wrote it. Outstanding!

No, that's not what Grassley wrote. Read the article.

It's sad that the right-tards can't even come up with anything real to criticize Obamacare, so they just make shit up.

Even the most ardent cheerleader or fanboi of Obama should understand at least why the Republicans are gonna rally against obamacare.

1. The appearance of fighting against bigger government is part of their platform
2. The facts back them up, that businesses have created a nation of part time workers in large part, due to fears of how Obamacare will affect them
3. And most importantly, the the majority of the nation does not support it

It's not complicated, as to why they will fight against it. If you sit there scratching your head trying to figure out why they fight, whether you agree with them or not, you're a complete dolt.

lakermania says

The facts back them up, that businesses have created a nation of part time workers in large part, due to fears of how Obamacare will affect them

Good thing the businesses did that out of fear rather than facts.

lakermania says

2. The facts back them up, that businesses have created a nation of part time workers in large part, due to fears of how Obamacare will affect them

Let me get this straight. Companies who previously would have hired full time employees, with health care, now hire them part time to avoid covering them for health insurance, and this just started a few years ago, and it's all because of Obamacare.

Because before Obamacare kicked in, providing health care for employees was so much less expensive and far more predictable and stable.

lakermania says

Even the most ardent cheerleader or fanboi of Obama should understand at least why the Republicans are gonna rally against obamacare.

What the fuck is a "fanboi"? Are you trying to say fanboy?

Everyone understands why the repubs are rallying against Obamacare. It's quite simple. If they don't succeed in killing it, and it actually turns out to be beneficial, then they will completely lock in the moniker of "the party of 'no'". They will lose all credibility as a political party, and simply be known as obstructionists. Their name will be mud, just like Strom Thurmond. Guaranteed they will lose the next election. There's a lot riding on this, and the repubs are scared shitless that Obamacare might actually work.

lakermania says

1. The appearance of fighting against bigger government is part of their platform

I understand that you hate the government, but the private insurance system just simply WASN'T WORKING. People who needed healthcare were denied insurance, and for those who could get it, the prices were rising out of control. They HAD their chance for a system without government involvement, and it FAILED. What don't you understand about that?

I find it interesting that half the people who criticize ACA claim it's too much government involvement, while the other half claim it's NOT ENOUGH government involvement. Hmmm...can't really be both, can it?

lakermania says

2. The facts back them up, that businesses have created a nation of part time workers in large part, due to fears of how Obamacare will affect them

That's outright false. The percentage of part-time workers increased BEFORE Obamacare mandated employer coverage, and actually went DOWN when the mandate was slated to start. The data just don't back up your premise, no matter how badly you wish to believe it. Facts don't lie, only Fox News does.

lakermania says

3. And most importantly, the the majority of the nation does not support it

All "polling" on the subject merely breaks down along partisan lines. Democrats are in favor of it, and Republicans are against it. That's not surprising, since Republicans, Fox News and the rest of the right-wing media have run a massive smear campaign of misinformation and propaganda against it. Just today, Rand Paul was on The Daily Show claiming that insurance will cost $15,000 for a person making $30,000 a year. That is just complete bullshit, and John Oliver failed to call him out on it. A person making $30K would only be responsible for paying $2,512 per year. Where the fuck is he getting $15K; that's just ridiculous - a blatant lie. No wonder the public is confused.

FortWayne says

Well you know Democrats wanted to keep slavery going, Republicans repealed it

Yes, but those democrats would be republicans now. Southern democrats became republicans back between 1965 and 1980. or so. This is a well known fact.

But yes, you are correct.

When you consider that Obama is to the right of Reagan, I don't think going back to the civil war tells us much about who the political parties are now. At least I was using examples from the past century.

marcus says

Yes, but those democrats would be republicans now. Southern democrats became
republicans back between 1965 and 1980. or so. This is a well known fact.

I wonder if Democrats will be saying the same thing about 50 years from now when they finally embrace science and give up their primitive caveman beliefs in killing their unborn children?

curious2 says

Because repealing Obamacare is Republicans' only policy position that has
majority support. Everything else in their platform alienates most people.

Really - all of these Republican/Conservative policies alienate people?

- Pension reform?
- Education reform? (Getting unions out of education and providing our kids school choice)
- Lower taxes?
- Smaller welfare state?
- Immigration enforcement - border security first before amnesty?
- Domestic energy production?
- Mild restrictions on abortion (i.e. 20 weeks to match most of the civilized world)?

Dude - it's the other way around as the 2012 election made clear. The Democrats have NOTHING but emotional girly issues to get the sheep riled up and out to the polls. That is why they had to run on the "war on women" and make Republicans look like racists - while using uber smart techies to go through voter rolls so the Democrats could target and drag every low information voter to the polls on election day.

I give Democrats props, they have a well oiled campaign machine and know how to message. But they sure as hell don't know how to govern or even pass legislation as the last 5 years have made painfully clear.

Can't tell you how many conversations I have had with my liberal friends and family where we go down issue by issue and we find common ground or more support for Conservative positions on the majority of issues. But in the end, most of my Lib friends will bring up some comment from some obscure Republican back bencher saying something stupid about abortion or rape (which has been played 24/7 on the news and Comedy Central) and they use that as an excuse to keep voting against the majority of their interests just to stay with the "cool" tribe of dopey libs.

Marcus' article presupposes that most Americans treat our laughable two-party political system as some sort of game, where points are scored against the opposing sides. This may be true for some political people, but the vast majority of citizens just want things to work and work right. Republican politicians might be more interested in scoring points, but republican voters mostly just want things to work correctly.
Obviously ideological differences in how a proper government is run separate the parties, but for the economy, and all decisions that truly matter to our freedoms and even the future existence of the USA, there is only one party.

You know the right wing is down to their last bullets when the only reason they have to live is to try to take down Obamacare. A plan originally constructed and proposed by the top conservative think tank, the Heritage Foundation a few years ago.

saroya says

You know the right wing is down to their last bullets when the only reason
they have to live is to try to take down Obamacare. A plan originally
constructed and proposed by the top conservative think tank, the Heritage
Foundation a few years ago.

Wow - one Conservative think tank in DC advocated for portions of Obamacare almost 2 decades ago! The Republican Party has spoken!

The Wall Street Journal supports liberal immigration reform and amnesty - so Republicans must be hypocrites for going against amnesty too!

Unlike the group-think Democrat party, there are actually some different factions within the Republican party big tent ranging from Compassionate Conservatism, Libertarianism, Neoconservatism, isolationism etc....

In case you have missed it, some things have changed in the intervening years and we have bigger priorities now then expanding our inefficient and corrupt government into our healthcare.

When facts on the ground change (i.e. our government is broke) don't you change your mind on previous policies pushed by our politicians?

What should scare Democrats the most is that not every one that opposes them are Republicans

What should scare Republicans the most is that not every one that opposes them are Democrats

Both parties excuse their short comings by reference to the other party.

socal2 says

Unlike the group-think Democrat party, there are actually some different factions within the Republican party big tent ranging from Compassionate Conservatism

But now it's called the "Democrat" party.

The former Democrat party that was actually liberal doesn't exist any more.

FortWayne says

marcus says

Like right wingers before you, who thought that social security, and medicare were a mistake, oyu are very likely to be proven worng.

Well you know Democrats wanted to keep slavery going, Republicans repealed it actually... but you can cherry pick all you want I suppose if you think it makes your argument look better on paper (lipstick on a pig)...

Bwa HA HA HA HA! He didn't say "Republicans"; he said "right wingers". Anyone who isn't an idiot knows that the Democrats USED to be on the right, and the Republicans USED to be on the left. That is no longer the case*. Perhaps an introductory history course would be in order for you.

*Actually, they're both on the right now - the Democrats just slightly less so.

socal2 says

Really - all of these Republican/Conservative policies alienate people?
***
- Mild restrictions on abortion (i.e. 20 weeks to match most of the civilized world)?

Read the 2012 Republican platform: they campaigned on amending the Constitution of the United States to ban all abortions, even rape/incest. As with the other examples on your list, you can present your personal view of what you believe the Republican party should propose, but unfortunately that party does not agree with you. Your presentation sounds like you've been listening to practitioners of the Jindal approach: tone down the rhetoric without changing the policies. It doesn't work in an Internet world, where people can read the actual policies. Republicans' best chance was Ron Paul, but they booed him because he insisted they had to be honest with themselves and they prefer faith-based government where they all shout the same prayers over and over and wait for their Almighty to deliver them an election.

curious2 says

Read the 2012 Republican platform: they campaigned on banning abortion in all
cases, even rape/incest. You can present your personal view of what the
Republican part should propose, but unfortunately the party does not agree with
you.

Uh huh - and where has the Republican party ever tried to implement a total ban? The Republicans won sweeping gains in many State legislatures and Governor seats in 2010 and the most we have seen are the mild restrictions like we saw in Texas recently banning abortions after 20 weeks.

Republicans learned a long time ago that it is best to make incremental restrictions to this primitive caveman practice. Even women support limiting abortion to 20 weeks as we all get more educated about fetal biology.
http://www.nationaljournal.com/congressional-connection/coverage/americans-narrowly-support-20-week-abortion-ban-20130626

After the horors of the Gosnell clinic in Philly where that abortionist was letting women die through terrible filthy clinics and killing born alive babies - one would think Democrats and their "war on women" meme would want some basic regulations to make these facilities safer.

But nooooo - Democrats are absolute purists with abortion. They tried to make a national hero out of the Texas woman trying to filibuster this common sense reform. There is absolutely no nuance or shade of gray with Democrats when it comes to abortion. They have to keep themselves scientifically ignorant unless they are forced to faced the evil practice they worship above all else.

I honestly think our ancestors will look back at abortion supporters as the equivalent of slave holders and advocates of Eugenics.

socal2 says

I wonder if Democrats will be saying the same thing about 50 years from now when they finally embrace science and give up their primitive caveman beliefs in killing their unborn children?

Right...how can you claim to have beliefs based on science when you are overwhelmed by language and logic ?

Somehow in your world, if one believes that we should not outlaw abortion, and that we should allow that option, that this is equivalent to actually believing in killing unborn children.

I don't know of, and have never met or heard of a person who is pro choice who thinks abortion is good, or who is against minimizing abortions. I'm pro choice, but I am extremely opposed to people thinking of abortion almost as a form of birth control.

I find it interesting that those who would say that a woman who on many levels is not fit to be a parent, should be forced by law to have her child if pregnant, are the same people who are extremely opposed to the state providing sufficient support for the children of extremly impoverished or otherwise unprepared or disabled mothers (e.g. drug addict mothers).

socal2 says

where has the Republican party ever tried to implement a total ban?

You seem to be saying their slogan should be, "Vote for us, once elected we forget about our platform and we never keep our campaign promises." That might at least be honest, but there's already another party in that racket, with less hatred and war, and most people prefer that.

What should scare Republicans about Obamacare is, they have nothing else to campaign on besides insulting most voters. They can't seem to let go of their hatred and campaign on policies that most voters agree with. And no, your family at dinner are not a representative sample; merely because they don't correct your selective revision of the Republican platform, and they refrain from stabbing you with a fork, doesn't mean your party can win. The Republican party owes a lot of apologies, but that would be step 9 of a 12-step program, and they can't even admit they have a problem.

socal2 says

here is absolutely no nuance or shade of gray with Democrats when it comes to abortion. They have to keep themselves scientifically ignorant unless they are forced to faced the evil practice they worship above all else.

This is bullshit.

The purpose of this type of propaganda is simply to try to gain more power for republicans, so that they can do the bidding of the plutocrats and corporations.

The truth is that a very significant percentage of moderate republicans are pro choice. (not to be confused with dishonest propaganda that conflates being pro choice with being "pro-abortion")

Sadly there are plenty fundamentalist types who buy this propaganda.

humanity says

moderate republicans

I know, I know, this is almost an oxymoron at this point. But they do still exist, even if in denial about how far to the right their party and its leadership has drifted.

humanity says

I know, I know, this is almost an oxymoron at this point. But they do still
exist, even if in denial about how far to the right their party and its
leadership has drifted.

Yet - we manage to nominate the most moderate Republicans to run for President year after year. Funny how reality fits with your fevered imagination.

- Ford?
- Reagan? (Homeboy is calling him a left winger now!)
- Bush I?
- Dole?
- Bush II (Compassionate Conservative big domestic spender pushed for amnesty)
- McCain? (Used to be the Democrat's favorite Republican)
- Romney? (Romneycare)

Need I go on?

The Democrats are sensing their big opportunity slipping out of their hands as everything continues to implode around them with no end in sight.

They know they will probably lose more seats in next year's midterm elections, so they have to craft a new meme about today's Republicans being "super extreme" to continue to scare the ladies in voting for big D.

Democrats have nothing to run on but fear. "If Republicans win, they are going to steal your ladyparts and ship minorities off to plantations!"

socal2 says

Need I go on?

No, but you probably will anyway. We've had this exchange before, after Republicans lost the 2012 election. You haven't learned anything, you merely repeat your insulting rhetoric. The problem that Republicans have is substantive, not stylistic, but you refuse to see it, you prefer to dismiss whatever issues you don't care about as "girly," it's a waste of time trying to discuss anything with you.

Maybe if Obamacare succeeds somehow, which I doubt but the future is always uncertain, then Republicans might recognize they have a problem and re-tool. That prospect would really scare the fundamentalists and morons among them - ahem without naming names ahem - because they're incapable of thinking let alone re-thinking anything.