patrick.net

The facts back them up, that businesses have created a nation of part time workers in large part, due to fears of how Obamacare will affect them

Good thing the businesses did that out of fear rather than facts.

22

marcus 2013 Aug 12, 4:30pm

2. The facts back them up, that businesses have created a nation of part time workers in large part, due to fears of how Obamacare will affect them

Let me get this straight. Companies who previously would have hired full time employees, with health care, now hire them part time to avoid covering them for health insurance, and this just started a few years ago, and it's all because of Obamacare.

Because before Obamacare kicked in, providing health care for employees was so much less expensive and far more predictable and stable.

23

Homeboy 2013 Aug 12, 6:03pm

Even the most ardent cheerleader or fanboi of Obama should understand at least why the Republicans are gonna rally against obamacare.

What the fuck is a "fanboi"? Are you trying to say fanboy?

Everyone understands why the repubs are rallying against Obamacare. It's quite simple. If they don't succeed in killing it, and it actually turns out to be beneficial, then they will completely lock in the moniker of "the party of 'no'". They will lose all credibility as a political party, and simply be known as obstructionists. Their name will be mud, just like Strom Thurmond. Guaranteed they will lose the next election. There's a lot riding on this, and the repubs are scared shitless that Obamacare might actually work.

1. The appearance of fighting against bigger government is part of their platform

I understand that you hate the government, but the private insurance system just simply WASN'T WORKING. People who needed healthcare were denied insurance, and for those who could get it, the prices were rising out of control. They HAD their chance for a system without government involvement, and it FAILED. What don't you understand about that?

I find it interesting that half the people who criticize ACA claim it's too much government involvement, while the other half claim it's NOT ENOUGH government involvement. Hmmm...can't really be both, can it?

2. The facts back them up, that businesses have created a nation of part time workers in large part, due to fears of how Obamacare will affect them

That's outright false. The percentage of part-time workers increased BEFORE Obamacare mandated employer coverage, and actually went DOWN when the mandate was slated to start. The data just don't back up your premise, no matter how badly you wish to believe it. Facts don't lie, only Fox News does.

3. And most importantly, the the majority of the nation does not support it

All "polling" on the subject merely breaks down along partisan lines. Democrats are in favor of it, and Republicans are against it. That's not surprising, since Republicans, Fox News and the rest of the right-wing media have run a massive smear campaign of misinformation and propaganda against it. Just today, Rand Paul was on The Daily Show claiming that insurance will cost $15,000 for a person making $30,000 a year. That is just complete bullshit, and John Oliver failed to call him out on it. A person making $30K would only be responsible for paying $2,512 per year. Where the fuck is he getting $15K; that's just ridiculous - a blatant lie. No wonder the public is confused.

24

marcus 2013 Aug 13, 12:09am

FortWayne says

Well you know Democrats wanted to keep slavery going, Republicans repealed it

Yes, but those democrats would be republicans now. Southern democrats became republicans back between 1965 and 1980. or so. This is a well known fact.

But yes, you are correct.

When you consider that Obama is to the right of Reagan, I don't think going back to the civil war tells us much about who the political parties are now. At least I was using examples from the past century.

25 socal2 2013 Aug 13, 2:12am

marcus says

Yes, but those democrats would be republicans now. Southern democrats became
republicans back between 1965 and 1980. or so. This is a well known fact.

I wonder if Democrats will be saying the same thing about 50 years from now when they finally embrace science and give up their primitive caveman beliefs in killing their unborn children?

26 socal2 2013 Aug 13, 2:25am

Because repealing Obamacare is Republicans' only policy position that has
majority support. Everything else in their platform alienates most people.

Really - all of these Republican/Conservative policies alienate people?

- Pension reform?
- Education reform? (Getting unions out of education and providing our kids school choice)
- Lower taxes?
- Smaller welfare state?
- Immigration enforcement - border security first before amnesty?
- Domestic energy production?
- Mild restrictions on abortion (i.e. 20 weeks to match most of the civilized world)?

Dude - it's the other way around as the 2012 election made clear. The Democrats have NOTHING but emotional girly issues to get the sheep riled up and out to the polls. That is why they had to run on the "war on women" and make Republicans look like racists - while using uber smart techies to go through voter rolls so the Democrats could target and drag every low information voter to the polls on election day.

I give Democrats props, they have a well oiled campaign machine and know how to message. But they sure as hell don't know how to govern or even pass legislation as the last 5 years have made painfully clear.

Can't tell you how many conversations I have had with my liberal friends and family where we go down issue by issue and we find common ground or more support for Conservative positions on the majority of issues. But in the end, most of my Lib friends will bring up some comment from some obscure Republican back bencher saying something stupid about abortion or rape (which has been played 24/7 on the news and Comedy Central) and they use that as an excuse to keep voting against the majority of their interests just to stay with the "cool" tribe of dopey libs.

27

Shaman 2013 Aug 13, 2:28am

Marcus' article presupposes that most Americans treat our laughable two-party political system as some sort of game, where points are scored against the opposing sides. This may be true for some political people, but the vast majority of citizens just want things to work and work right. Republican politicians might be more interested in scoring points, but republican voters mostly just want things to work correctly.
Obviously ideological differences in how a proper government is run separate the parties, but for the economy, and all decisions that truly matter to our freedoms and even the future existence of the USA, there is only one party.

28 saroya 2013 Aug 13, 2:34am

You know the right wing is down to their last bullets when the only reason they have to live is to try to take down Obamacare. A plan originally constructed and proposed by the top conservative think tank, the Heritage Foundation a few years ago.

29 socal2 2013 Aug 13, 3:00am

saroya says

You know the right wing is down to their last bullets when the only reason
they have to live is to try to take down Obamacare. A plan originally
constructed and proposed by the top conservative think tank, the Heritage
Foundation a few years ago.

Wow - one Conservative think tank in DC advocated for portions of Obamacare almost 2 decades ago! The Republican Party has spoken!

The Wall Street Journal supports liberal immigration reform and amnesty - so Republicans must be hypocrites for going against amnesty too!

Unlike the group-think Democrat party, there are actually some different factions within the Republican party big tent ranging from Compassionate Conservatism, Libertarianism, Neoconservatism, isolationism etc....

In case you have missed it, some things have changed in the intervening years and we have bigger priorities now then expanding our inefficient and corrupt government into our healthcare.

When facts on the ground change (i.e. our government is broke) don't you change your mind on previous policies pushed by our politicians?

30

smaulgld 2013 Aug 13, 3:05am

What should scare Democrats the most is that not every one that opposes them are Republicans

What should scare Republicans the most is that not every one that opposes them are Democrats

Both parties excuse their short comings by reference to the other party.

31

Homeboy 2013 Aug 13, 5:19am

Unlike the group-think Democrat party, there are actually some different factions within the Republican party big tent ranging from Compassionate Conservatism

But now it's called the "Democrat" party.

The former Democrat party that was actually liberal doesn't exist any more.

32

Homeboy 2013 Aug 13, 5:24am

FortWayne says

marcus says

Like right wingers before you, who thought that social security, and medicare were a mistake, oyu are very likely to be proven worng.

Well you know Democrats wanted to keep slavery going, Republicans repealed it actually... but you can cherry pick all you want I suppose if you think it makes your argument look better on paper (lipstick on a pig)...

Bwa HA HA HA HA! He didn't say "Republicans"; he said "right wingers". Anyone who isn't an idiot knows that the Democrats USED to be on the right, and the Republicans USED to be on the left. That is no longer the case*. Perhaps an introductory history course would be in order for you.

*Actually, they're both on the right now - the Democrats just slightly less so.

33

curious2 2013 Aug 13, 5:35am

Really - all of these Republican/Conservative policies alienate people?
***
- Mild restrictions on abortion (i.e. 20 weeks to match most of the civilized world)?

Read the 2012 Republican platform: they campaigned on amending the Constitution of the United States to ban all abortions, even rape/incest. As with the other examples on your list, you can present your personal view of what you believe the Republican party should propose, but unfortunately that party does not agree with you. Your presentation sounds like you've been listening to practitioners of the Jindal approach: tone down the rhetoric without changing the policies. It doesn't work in an Internet world, where people can read the actual policies. Republicans' best chance was Ron Paul, but they booed him because he insisted they had to be honest with themselves and they prefer faith-based government where they all shout the same prayers over and over and wait for their Almighty to deliver them an election.

34 socal2 2013 Aug 13, 5:48am

Read the 2012 Republican platform: they campaigned on banning abortion in all
cases, even rape/incest. You can present your personal view of what the
Republican part should propose, but unfortunately the party does not agree with
you.

Uh huh - and where has the Republican party ever tried to implement a total ban? The Republicans won sweeping gains in many State legislatures and Governor seats in 2010 and the most we have seen are the mild restrictions like we saw in Texas recently banning abortions after 20 weeks.

Republicans learned a long time ago that it is best to make incremental restrictions to this primitive caveman practice. Even women support limiting abortion to 20 weeks as we all get more educated about fetal biology.
http://www.nationaljournal.com/congressional-connection/coverage/americans-narrowly-support-20-week-abortion-ban-20130626

After the horors of the Gosnell clinic in Philly where that abortionist was letting women die through terrible filthy clinics and killing born alive babies - one would think Democrats and their "war on women" meme would want some basic regulations to make these facilities safer.

But nooooo - Democrats are absolute purists with abortion. They tried to make a national hero out of the Texas woman trying to filibuster this common sense reform. There is absolutely no nuance or shade of gray with Democrats when it comes to abortion. They have to keep themselves scientifically ignorant unless they are forced to faced the evil practice they worship above all else.

I honestly think our ancestors will look back at abortion supporters as the equivalent of slave holders and advocates of Eugenics.

35 humanity 2013 Aug 13, 5:52am

I wonder if Democrats will be saying the same thing about 50 years from now when they finally embrace science and give up their primitive caveman beliefs in killing their unborn children?

Right...how can you claim to have beliefs based on science when you are overwhelmed by language and logic ?

Somehow in your world, if one believes that we should not outlaw abortion, and that we should allow that option, that this is equivalent to actually believing in killing unborn children.

I don't know of, and have never met or heard of a person who is pro choice who thinks abortion is good, or who is against minimizing abortions. I'm pro choice, but I am extremely opposed to people thinking of abortion almost as a form of birth control.

I find it interesting that those who would say that a woman who on many levels is not fit to be a parent, should be forced by law to have her child if pregnant, are the same people who are extremely opposed to the state providing sufficient support for the children of extremly impoverished or otherwise unprepared or disabled mothers (e.g. drug addict mothers).

36

curious2 2013 Aug 13, 5:56am

where has the Republican party ever tried to implement a total ban?

You seem to be saying their slogan should be, "Vote for us, once elected we forget about our platform and we never keep our campaign promises." That might at least be honest, but there's already another party in that racket, with less hatred and war, and most people prefer that.

What should scare Republicans about Obamacare is, they have nothing else to campaign on besides insulting most voters. They can't seem to let go of their hatred and campaign on policies that most voters agree with. And no, your family at dinner are not a representative sample; merely because they don't correct your selective revision of the Republican platform, and they refrain from stabbing you with a fork, doesn't mean your party can win. The Republican party owes a lot of apologies, but that would be step 9 of a 12-step program, and they can't even admit they have a problem.

37 humanity 2013 Aug 13, 6:01am

here is absolutely no nuance or shade of gray with Democrats when it comes to abortion. They have to keep themselves scientifically ignorant unless they are forced to faced the evil practice they worship above all else.

This is bullshit.

The purpose of this type of propaganda is simply to try to gain more power for republicans, so that they can do the bidding of the plutocrats and corporations.

The truth is that a very significant percentage of moderate republicans are pro choice. (not to be confused with dishonest propaganda that conflates being pro choice with being "pro-abortion")

Sadly there are plenty fundamentalist types who buy this propaganda.

38 humanity 2013 Aug 13, 6:06am

humanity says

moderate republicans

I know, I know, this is almost an oxymoron at this point. But they do still exist, even if in denial about how far to the right their party and its leadership has drifted.

39 socal2 2013 Aug 13, 6:21am

humanity says

I know, I know, this is almost an oxymoron at this point. But they do still
exist, even if in denial about how far to the right their party and its
leadership has drifted.

Yet - we manage to nominate the most moderate Republicans to run for President year after year. Funny how reality fits with your fevered imagination.

- Ford?
- Reagan? (Homeboy is calling him a left winger now!)
- Bush I?
- Dole?
- Bush II (Compassionate Conservative big domestic spender pushed for amnesty)
- McCain? (Used to be the Democrat's favorite Republican)
- Romney? (Romneycare)

Need I go on?

The Democrats are sensing their big opportunity slipping out of their hands as everything continues to implode around them with no end in sight.

They know they will probably lose more seats in next year's midterm elections, so they have to craft a new meme about today's Republicans being "super extreme" to continue to scare the ladies in voting for big D.

Democrats have nothing to run on but fear. "If Republicans win, they are going to steal your ladyparts and ship minorities off to plantations!"

40

curious2 2013 Aug 13, 6:26am

Need I go on?

No, but you probably will anyway. We've had this exchange before, after Republicans lost the 2012 election. You haven't learned anything, you merely repeat your insulting rhetoric. The problem that Republicans have is substantive, not stylistic, but you refuse to see it, you prefer to dismiss whatever issues you don't care about as "girly," it's a waste of time trying to discuss anything with you.

Maybe if Obamacare succeeds somehow, which I doubt but the future is always uncertain, then Republicans might recognize they have a problem and re-tool. That prospect would really scare the fundamentalists and morons among them - ahem without naming names ahem - because they're incapable of thinking let alone re-thinking anything.

41 anonymous 2013 Aug 13, 6:29am

I can't speak for republicans, and I'm no afraid of ppaca

I do however, have a healthy fear, of contracting whatever it is that has infected the thoughtless dolts the likes of marcus and homeboy, that has turned them into walking dead state controlled propaganda drones.

42 socal2 2013 Aug 13, 6:56am

The problem that Republicans have is substantive, not stylistic, but you refuse
to see it, you prefer to dismiss whatever issues you don't care about as
"girly," it's a waste of time trying to discuss anything with you.

In this very thread, I listed a number of key national issues where I believe the majority of the US population supports the Republican approach. Look at the list of "important issues" polled by Gallup.
http://www.gallup.com/poll/1675/most-important-problem.aspx

The Democrat girly wedge issues of guns, gays, race and abortion are pretty far down the list. Yet, what has Obama and the Democrats spent most of the last 5 years on?

What were the main themes Obama and the Democrats campaigned on in 2012? Life of Julia? Romney's Dog? Binders full of women? 47%

Of course the Democrats win on style. They have a balkanized constituency of various "victim groups" and they have everyone in the Media, Hollywood and Academia on their side pushing these wedge issues so they don't have to confront the more important issues that faces the MAJORITY of this country.

43

curious2 2013 Aug 13, 7:04am

socal2, you're boring me to sleep, wake me when Republicans have better substantive policies for "the MAJORITY" (hint: more tax cuts for the 1% won't work, you can't balance the budget simply by cutting taxes), and when they're ready to apologize for insulting so many people that what you call "victim groups" add up to a majority.

errc says

whatever it is that has infected the thoughtless dolts the likes of marcus and homeboy, that has turned them into walking dead state controlled propaganda drones.

In the case of homefool, it's his addiction to SSRIs that he insists are "not habit forming," parroting the TV ad claims that stopped after overwhelming evidence proved physical dependence. That probably scares Republicans about Obamacare too: there's too much money in making more people dependent on toxic pills that they can't even afford, and votes in it too because once they're hooked they have to vote for more subsidies. In the case of marcus, it's early religious programming and an emotional temperament that elevates feeling above reason, the latter being particularly ironic in someone who claims to be a math teacher.

44 socal2 2013 Aug 13, 7:09am

socal2, you're boring me to sleep, wake me when Republicans have better
substantive policies for "the MAJORITY" (and no, more tax cuts for the 1% don't
work, you can't balance a budget simply by cutting taxes),

As I pointed out earlier. The MAJORITY of the country agree with Republicans on these issues.

Obama and the Democrats are against the MAJORITY of Americans on these issues. So they have to run on divisive cultural/social issues instead of dealing with the hard and important stuff that affects everybody.

- Pension reform?
- Education reform? (Getting unions out of education and providing our kids school choice)
- Lower taxes?
- Smaller welfare state?
- Immigration enforcement - border security first before amnesty?
- Domestic energy production?
- Mild restrictions on abortion (i.e. 20 weeks to match most of the civilized world)?

45

curious2 2013 Aug 13, 7:12am

Mild restrictions on abortion (i.e. 20 weeks to match most of the civilized world)?

You're becoming even more of a drone than the opposite partisans you claim to disagree with. I linked above to the Republicans' actual platform, you reply by copying and pasting your selective revision. The same with the other issues, btw. Your family and friends might let you get away with that if they want to agree with you (or at least keep the peace at dinner), but it doesn't work elsewhere, especially online where people can see the actual platform for themselves. You're committed to "your team" and you want to believe they share your views, but they don't, and most people can see through it, pity you can't. Without Obamacare, the Republicans have nothing to campaign on, and that should scare them into actually changing their other positions, but they don't want to accept that fact, and you're enabling their denial, which isn't helping your team actually.

46 socal2 2013 Aug 13, 7:28am

As if posting the party planks trumps actual legislation? In terms of my partial list, look at all of the ACTIONS Republicans are taking to try and support the will of the majority of the people.

- Which party actually reformed pensions? Remember Walker in Wisconsin? Remember Christie in New Jersey?
- Which party is trying to reform education and get unions out? Again, remember Wisconsin? How about Mitch Daniels in Indiana? How many Republican Governors are supporting vouchers and minimum standards?
- Which party wants lower taxes? No brainer
- Which party wants smaller government and welfare state? Seen any of the House budgets?
- Which party is fighting for border security before amnesty? What is the House doing right now?
- Which party favors domestic energy? Who is blocking Keystone and drilling on Federal lands?
- Which party is imposing mild reforms to abortion on demand? See Texas.

Call me crazy, but I think actual Republican legislation seems to be a better gauge of Republican policies instead of proposed policy planks or whatever war on "insert victim group here" cooked up by MSNBC or OFA.

47

curious2 2013 Aug 13, 7:35am

Call me crazy....

I was refraining, but since you insist, it's true. If the Republicans are not committed to the planks of their losing platform, then let them apologize, change their platform and try again. They should be asking forgiveness, but instead you're saying something like: "when we campaign, it's only the liquor talking, or the religious fanaticism, don't pay any attention to what we say." That doesn't work. If you want forgiveness for insulting people, you have to apologize and stop doing the thing that you apologized for, you can't continue without apology and expect people simply to ignore it and vote for you anyway.

What is the House doing right now?

Probably voting to repeal Obamacare, which can't be repealed in this Congress because the Republicans lost the 2012 election by campaigning on the platform that you disingenuously revise and then unconvincingly de-emphasize. Earlier in the year, they were borrowing and spending millions of dollars in a futile effort to stop gay couples from getting married, which is yet another issue where Republicans are not even trying to help "the MAJORITY", in fact a majority support marriage equality. The Republicans have become less like a serious national political party and more like a tent full of faith-healers trying to stage a revival. The only reason they even control the House is because of gerrymandering, most voters chose Democrats in 2012.

48 socal2 2013 Aug 13, 8:05am

Earlier in the year, they were borrowing and spending millions of dollars in a
futile effort to stop gay couples from getting married, which is yet another
issue where Republicans are not even trying to help "the MAJORITY," in fact a
majority support marriage equality.

See - there is another one of those "important issues" that ranks about dead last in the Gallup polls as priorities. That's all you got......girly social wedge issues.

No one cares about Gay Marriage except a vocal segment of our pop culture in Hollywood. Obama and Hillary were against Gay Marriage just a few years ago. That is how quick our cultural norms can change when Hollywood relentellessly pushes their agenda down our throats.

You cite polls favoring gay marriage, but in virtually every State where it is put up to an actual vote (even California) it goes down in flames. So they have to resort to the courts to get around the will of the people.

IRT - Republican plank. Just read your link. Where does it say that they would ban all abortions even in cases of incest and rape? You are just making it up.

Just amazes me how people like you who presumably don't want any restrictions on abortions on demand including late term abortions really think you have science or history on your side. The Democrats hold the most extreme views on this issue and can't even begin to discuss the details of what they are advocating - so they have to hide their positions behind fluffy sounding euphemisms like "pro-choice" or "women's health".

All style - no substance.

49

curious2 2013 Aug 13, 8:09am

there is another one of those "important issues" that ranks about dead last in the Gallup polls as priorities.

So why did the Republican House borrow and spend millions of dollars waging a futile court battle to oppose "the will of the people"?

You cite polls favoring gay marriage, but in virtually every State where it is put up to an actual vote (even California) it goes down in flames.

In all four states where the issue appeared on the November ballot, voters supported it or at least didn't oppose it. California elected Democrats, who campaigned in favor as well; even California's most recent Republican gubernatorial nominee, who campaigned against it and lost, now supports it. If the issue isn't important, why don't Republicans apologize, adopt the will of the people, and move on?

50 socal2 2013 Aug 13, 8:25am

My bad - a couple very liberal states finally voted for gay marriage in 2012. Yet the majority of States in our country have voted against it or ammended their state constitutions to prevent liberal judges from legalizing it. And you wonder why Republicans would stand with the majority of the people on this issue?

Republicans have been consistently against the caveman practice of abortion even when it was much more popular in the past when people were more ignorant of science and biology.

With polls showing increased pro-life sentitment with the younger generation, do you really think the Republican's incremental effort to restrict abortion has been futile?

51

curious2 2013 Aug 13, 8:27am