patrick.net

REpro says

Why don’t place incentive for developers to build affordable housing, where they can enjoy similar profit margin as the luxury ones.

There are incentives. In the Windemere section of San Ramon, there are entire, huge, sprawling complexes with income restrictions. So, in the middle of all of this wealth, there is a section of the walking trail that you will soon need to avoid. Both times I was there I had pitbull encounters (different dogs each time). So, ya the incentive and the ghetto are there. Maybe I have become a complete snob, but I came from Richmond, why would I want to work hard and spend a ton of money on housing to have to avoid walking in certain parts of my own city?

rufita11 says

There are incentives. In the Windemere section of San Ramon, there are
entire, huge, sprawling complexes with income restrictions. So, in the middle of
all of this wealth, there is a section of the walking trail that you will soon
need to avoid. Both times I was there I had pitbull encounters (different dogs
each time). So, ya the incentive and the ghetto are there. Maybe I have become a
complete snob, but I came from Richmond, why would I want to work hard and spend
a ton of money on housing to have to avoid walking in certain parts of my own
city?

Yeah I know a few people in San Ramon who are mad at the "affordable housing." Claim there has been a surge in robberies and are also worried about the school district rankings.

I for one don't understand the concept-I would like to retire in Malibu -but can't. Why should taxpayers subsidize folks who can't afford to live in a certain location.

rufita11 says

here are incentives. In the Windemere section of San Ramon, there are entire, huge, sprawling complexes with income restrictions. So, in the middle of all of this wealth, there is a section of the walking trail that you will soon need to avoid. Both times I was there I had pitbull encounters (different dogs each time). So, ya the incentive and the ghetto are there. Maybe I have become a complete snob, but I came from Richmond, why would I want to work hard and spend a ton of money on housing to have to avoid walking in certain parts of my own city?

From the Muirlands at Windemere website:

The Housing Tax Credit Program allows for the lifestyle you deserve at a price you can afford!

The current income limits are:
1 Person - $39,300
2 People - $44,880
3 People - $50,520
4 People - $56,100
5 People - $60,600

That's right, if you and your spouse make a combined $56K, you and the kids "deserve" to live in San Ramon, and pay $1100 for a 3BR.

mdiablo says

lifestyle you deserve

'Murica, FUCK YEAH

SFace says

y uncle lives in Cupertino and has four kids, and will buy four homes to each of his four kids (mountain view, Sunnyale you name it).

I'm talking of the other 80%.
And in fact I'm talking of those that didn't buy 40 years ago, and that aren't sucking the big tit in some other way.

I meaning basically these tech people who come here for regular work and that are expected to pay all they have to maintain this situation.
These people should leave.

SFace says

A 25 year old makes about 80K but bought a 800K condo in south beach in January. Bank of Mom and Dad obviously fronted 400K or so.

Nice gift to your kids: loading them with a mortgage 5 times their puny salary, and a 'gift' of $400K that could disappear in short order for no particularly good reason.

mdiablo says

the lifestyle you deserve at a price you can afford!

Then, I presume some people “deserve” a $30 cup of coffee from local Starbucks.

md said: That's right, if you and your spouse make a combined $56K, you and the kids "deserve" to live in San Ramon, and pay $1100 for a 3BR.
Well, where would you like the teachers to live?

EBGuy says

md said: That's right, if you and your spouse make a combined $56K, you and the kids "deserve" to live in San Ramon, and pay $1100 for a 3BR.

Well, where would you like the teachers to live?

Teachers make too much to qualify for those rents, even the single ones. Those deals are reserved for the all important barristas. God save us from the $30 latte.

Teachers can live in San Leandro.

bmwman91 says

the Fortress has grown

I dunno.

A self-identified immigrant who claimed to live in Cupertino with the handle "OO" used " fortress" to describe areas are were immune from the price declines during the time that home prices were crashing everywhere else. He explained that those such places were a "fortress" against price declines.

He did not mention about "Cupertino Schools". Though there certainly is an overlap between Standardized Test Scores indices and Fortress real estate, it wasn't his point, which I thought was made with kiasu-kind of (obnoxious) panache. He hasn't posted in years, but I've kept his fortress appellation alive in deference to his bravado, and capitalized it for emphasis.

I suppose that the definition of The Fortress sort of varies by person. My definition is largely based on the cynicism found over on Burbed. It consists of Cupertino, (now) MV, PA and Menlo Park. "The Schools" seems to be the main driving factor, and the drivers largely seem to be those that are unaware that there's no GaoKao system here and people that want to keep up an appearance that they are doing everything to "give their child the absolute best."

The only coworkers of mine that tried to convince me to buy into Cupertino or Palo Alto were from China, India and Russia. It started out being all about the schools, but their core reasoning in the end was all based on future house price appreciation. When I told them that I bought in what is effectively San Jose, they were like, "oh...well...good for you." I found it righteously amusing, but to each their own. I almost think that it is better that that group covets specific areas and self-confines to them. There are still plenty of normal people in the south bay. You just don't notice them all that much because they are busy minding their own business and living life.

It is kind of myth about schools in Fortress area. I can agree that students can be smart and push to the max by ambitious parents. Teachers I don’t think so are any better than anywhere else. School facilities however… OMG… 3-rd world. Mostly looks like complex of mobile homes randomly arranged on ground.
I definitely won’t be anxious to attend them as a child.

Bmwman where did you end up buying ( zip code ) ?

REpro says

It is kind of myth about schools in Fortress area. I can agree that students can be smart and push to the max by ambitious parents. Teachers I don’t think so are any better than anywhere else.

I agree, the Fortress teachers aren't much better. But, the advantage is that a high percentage of the kids come ready to learn, and it's just expected that everyone will study and do well. Whereas in other places, some of the kids will come in below grade level and the teachers will have to spend more time with them.

There's definitely pros and cons to both; a given above-average kid will be more likely to be at the top of the class in the latter school.

And BMWman's plan to send kids to parochial school is good too; from a financial standpoint it's better to buy in a cheaper place and send one kid to parochial school. Maybe even two. With three or more the math may be different.

Plus with that plan you can buy in the cheaper part of an expensive city. Eg Los Gatos with Union schools is cheaper than LG with LG schools. or Saratoga with Moreland or Campbell schools as compared to Cupertino or Saratoga schools.

cloud15 says

Bmwman where did you end up buying ( zip code ) ?

I'm probably not going to get that specific about personal residence information on a forum.

SiO2 says

And BMWman's plan to send kids to parochial school is good too; from a financial standpoint it's better to buy in a cheaper place and send one kid to parochial school. Maybe even two. With three or more the math may be different.

I ran the math a while ago, based on today's tuition and such. It is indeed a better dollar value to buy a cheaper house and send one kid through the parochial system. Two kids and it is almost a wash. Three or more, you would be financially better off in a "good" district, although you had better have health coverage that includes psychotropic meds for your kids.

E-Man and I were talking once, and he had a fair point that buying in Cupertino or some such place is really just a pass-through cost. Live there, put your kids through the system and then you will very likely be able to sell the house to the next aspiring tiger parent and move somewhere cheaper. That's a valid point, as long as you want to put your kids through there. I don't, so it wasn't the most compelling argument to me personally, but it is perfectly valid for many people. It all depends on what your goals as a parent are. If you want your kid to grow up and be a high earning doctor or lawyer, then you need to get them used to and numb to suicide-inducing pressure from the start, and they need to be taught that their peers are their enemies that will consume them if they want to survive law or med school. That seems like child abuse to me.

Child abuse?

You think?

http://www.nytimes.com/uwire/uwire_QPC05312007556740.html

Interesting article

"The consequences of someone getting a 'B' in a class at Stanford really aren't that great in the context of career decisions and career opportunities," he said. "In other cultures they can be significant."

But isn't a B at Stanford the same as a F at most schools? Maybe you should kill yourself.

bmwman91 says

If you want your kid to grow up and be a high earning doctor or lawyer, then you need to get them used to and numb to suicide-inducing pressure from the start, and they need to be taught that their peers are their enemies that will consume them if they want to survive law or med school

Well. I am high earning, and don't believe that my peers are my enemies. Many people on this board are high earning, and don't hold this belief. BMWman, you must be fairly high earning to buy a house in SJ, and I'm sure you don't hold this belief.

The advantage of Fortress schools is that the general expectation is high achievement, and people can respond to high expectations with high achievement. Of course, not every child has the same innate capability, so parents have to consider this. But having low expectations will correlate to low achievement.

SiO2 says

having low expectations will correlate to low achievement.

Depends on what those expectations are for.

Like, ethics or grades?

I can think of more than one way to get good grades.

SiO2 says

Well. I am high earning, and don't believe that my peers are my enemies. Many people on this board are high earning, and don't hold this belief. BMWman, you must be fairly high earning to buy a house in SJ, and I'm sure you don't hold this belief.

The advantage of Fortress schools is that the general expectation is high achievement, and people can respond to high expectations with high achievement. Of course, not every child has the same innate capability, so parents have to consider this. But having low expectations will correlate to low achievement.

I should have been more specific. When I say "high earning" I generally mean pulling a single income of $300k+, more specifically in law or medicine. By any rational standard, engineers and such are high earning in the context of the nation and world. It's just SV silliness that makes an engineering salary seem "small." Hitting mid- to high-six-figures is pretty uncommon for engineers though (GOOG and AAPL are exceptions), and you sort of need to be in an executive seat to pull that money if you are in tech. I have relatives that have been through law and med school over the last decade, and it's dog-eat-dog. Only the top percentage of people in their class get the really good, high paying positions. As more people want to get to those positions, so increases the competition. Parents that want their kids to go that route probably need to train them from an early age. Maybe it didn't used to be that way, but competition is fiercer now than ever.

I certainly don't view my peers as enemies, and very few of them seem to have an attitude like that. We also don't make anywhere near $300k. You are right in that being in an environment where there are high expectations and an academic focus is the norm can be very conducive to learning. Attending a school where kids with good grades get beaten up for being nerds isn't. There's a balance though, between encouraging academic excellence and living life. The "top" school districts seem to have gone full-tilt toward academics such that it IS life for kids and parents have pre-determined what their kids will do in life.

Not full tilt towards learning and growing.

Just full tilt towards high scores. ( Grade grubbing). Call it academics if you want to.

B.A.C.A.H. says

Not full tilt towards learning and growing.

Just full tilt towards high scores. ( Grade grubbing). Call it academics if you want to.

Fair enough. Personally, "academics" is something that is more reserved for post-graduates. Learning to think is what kids are supposed to be doing prior to that. There is plenty of information to be absorbed while doing that. I am not sure if ANY school system in the US is set up for that anymore. Reading about the great mathematicians and thinkers throughout history, one thing that they all seemed to have in common was a lot of free, unstructured time during their youth coupled with parents that knew the importance of scholastic rigor when the time was appropriate. Walks in the forest, hiking, kicking around in hay fields. They weren't being forced to memorize facts to pass scantron exams during every waking moment. Causation isn't correlation, but the human mind seems to need freedom to grow.. I guess that we both know that "growing the mind" isn't what the whole top-schools discussion is about though.

bmwman, in the cubicle warren and similar such places I am most discouraged about the youth in our region.

But when I have my boots on the ground at local public schools it's the opposite.

It sounds like a contradiction but that's because I'm not about to go into such detail on a blog. I am sure many will call me a hypocrite, maybe a liar, etc.

Whatever. Sticks and stones.

I can fill you in if you're ever interested at Sabor Salvadoreno.

Well, it's good to know that there's reason to be positive where it counts (where the kids are). For some reason I thought that you were up in the PNW since you speak highly of it.

I'll take you up on the offer sometime. Isabella's over by 280 & Winchester is also pretty killer if you are into South American food. Not sure if I have tried Salvadorian food before.

SiO2 , To add on to your comment :
You can buy in LOs Gatos with union schools or you can buy in San Jose with union schools, which might be cheaper than buying in LG ( union schools ).

bmwman91 says

E-Man and I were talking once, and he had a fair point that buying in Cupertino or some such place is really just a pass-through cost. Live there, put your kids through the system and then you will very likely be able to sell the house to the next aspiring tiger parent and move somewhere cheaper. That's a valid point, as long as you want to put your kids through there.

Depends. The payment on a $1.5M house in The Fortress with its "great" schools will be 2-3x more than the payment on an otherwise equivalent house in a cheaper area with very good schools. Can you afford a payment of $4-9k/mo for 12 years or is a payment of $2-3k/mo more in line with your household income?

Pass through costs are fine if you can afford to carry them. If not you'll be moving a lot sooner than you think.

New Renter says

bmwman91 says

E-Man and I were talking once, and he had a fair point that buying in Cupertino or some such place is really just a pass-through cost. Live there, put your kids through the system and then you will very likely be able to sell the house to the next aspiring tiger parent and move somewhere cheaper. That's a valid point, as long as you want to put your kids through there.

Depends. The payment on a $1.5M house in The Fortress with its "great" schools will be 2-3x more than the payment on an otherwise equivalent house in a cheaper area with very good schools. Can you afford a payment of $4-9k/mo for 12 years or is a payment of $2-3k/mo more in line with your household income?

Pass through costs are fine if you can afford to carry them. If not you'll be moving a lot sooner than you think.

Yes, whether its a pass-through cost or some other cost, all cost have an effect on the bottom line. Incomes matter.

Also lets be honest, when people buy in an area with "good schools", they are really buying something else.

Guys, paying Fortress prices (and property taxes, God bless them) for those "good" schools is not a poor investment- it's a malinvestment.

A lifelong resident of "Silicon Valley" and three decades tech worker in lotsa organizations all over "The Valley" I could share with you all kinds of stories. (Including one that still shows up on milk cartons from time to time).

But cannot share on the Internet. It's way too real and too personal; not fair to the "victims".

bacah ( serpent ? ) ....please share ?

Bacah sorry for the typo , your old screen name was syrib right ?

Not here. City lights expresso or Sabor Salvadoreno, maybe. But not here.

Yep.

Syrib and everyone what are some of your favorite mom and pop restaurants with authentic taste ?

For example I like

Hunan taste ,
Chez Sivan ( one in Campbell sucks , the one in downtown is good )
La garcias ( Oakland road )
Shalimaar in Fremont ( everywhere else it sucks )
kong Tofu in Cupertino for Korean
More to come once u guys shade

bmwman91 says

Attending a school where kids with good grades get beaten up for being nerds
isn't.

Sounds like my high school.

freak80 says

bmwman91 says

Attending a school where kids with good grades get beaten up for being nerds

isn't.

Sounds like my high school.

Sounds like everyone's high school.

California Uber Alles!

time to lie on, oops I mean 'brush up' your resume!

New Renter says

Sounds like everyone's high school.

Good point. :-)

Having recently vacationed in a "developing country", I would not exactly categorize bay area as "3rd world", but I do agree with the sentiment that the focus to succeed academically is astronomical here, especially amongst "tigers" and jewish ethnicities. However, we also have certain "hoods" where learning is not really emphasized at all. Additionally while housing/rents vary, for the most part I would say that approximately 80-85% of bay area prices don't comport with reality of what prices should be given the quality regardless or owning or renting. But yes, peninsula and SV are absolutely ridiculous in this regard.

bmwman91 says

Developers want very much to develop anywhere and everywhere that they can. The reason that they aren't isn't because of a lack of willingness on their part. It is because they simply can't due to 3rd parties with huge incentives to stop them.

Truer words are rarely spoken on this site. I just bought a house in Mountain View, and signed up for the mailing list for the neighborhood. I see two topics on that list - trying to get rid of used stuff, and forms of NIMBY busybody prattle. OMG, there's a development going up, we have to go complain to the city council.