patrick.net

dublin hillz says

In fact, many people precisely came to america to get away from this primitive bullshit.

most people came to america to make money lawlessly so they can bring money to their tribe back home.

so far the American experiment hasn't worked without borrowing massively on the future.

freak80 says

Ok, so you don't have a problem with aristocracy. But many people do, including myself.

I don't have a problem with inherited wealth per se.

I do have a problem with people selling (or leasing) me the commons they've claimed for themselves.

That's the fundamental injustice, something John Locke nailed a long time ago.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lockean_proviso

mell says

(who determines how much which land is worth, politicians

highest bidder more or less (there's an infinite amount of issues to be hashed out with LVT -- tax abatements for land-intensive but valued uses, security of tenancy for people as they age, etc)

they key thing is that a given plot's economic value is very dependent on its zoning, so how things gets zoned is the true determinant of prices.

Bellingham Bill says

freak80 says

Ok, so you don't have a problem with aristocracy. But many people do, including myself.

I don't have a problem with inherited wealth per se.

I do have a problem with people selling (or leasing) me the commons they've claimed for themselves.

That's the fundamental injustice, something John Locke nailed a long time ago.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lockean_proviso

give me an example of something that wasn't 'commons'

MershedPerturders says

so far the American experiment hasn't worked without borrowing massively on the future.

What a dumbass comment. It has worked better than any other "experiment" in history. Especially before your socialist vermin sunk their claws into the economy about 100yr ago.

indigenous says

It has worked better than any other "experiment" in history.

Hi!

I have over 3 rental properties and I declare the American Experiment a resounding success!

-stupid clueless boomer

freak80 says

Some might say "we the people."

Let's see, "we the people" voted for the lawmakers who pass laws that they do not read, that the bureaucrats do not abide by anyway.

Ok, so you don't have a problem with aristocracy. But many people do, including myself.

Aristocracy is maintained by government granted privileges. The free market place was historically what chipped away Aristocracy. Every parent wants his/her child to have a good start . . . meaning better than average start in life. Therein lies the statistical impossibility: everyone can not be above average! Government official privilege is what builds aristocracy as bureaucrats have children too!

Reality says

Let's see, "we the people" voted for the lawmakers who pass laws that they do not read, that the bureaucrats do not abide by anyway.

"America is the best system every invented! How else could a lazy idiot like me whose primary interest is cheeseburgers and sex accumulate property? Impossible in any other country! God bless our troops for making America safe for illegal aliens and corrupt banking practices."

The "Robber Baron" term was coined in the late 19th century. The per capita income in the US increased from roughly 1% per year to 2% per year in the middle decades of the 19th century, after the "Robber Barons" built the turnpikes, canals and railroads.

The "GNP"/"GDP" during much of FDR years were measuring make-belief jobs and jobs killing people. The planes and bombs burning down Dresden were counted as US/UK GDP/GNP; the AA fire killing US/UK air crewmen were counted as German GDP/GNP. The world's GDP/GNP mushroomed as the citizens roasted in fire.

Reality says

The "Robber Baron" term was coined in the late 19th century. The per capita income in the US increased from roughly 1% per year to 2% per year in the middle decades of the 19th century, after the "Robber Barons" built the turnpikes, canals and railroads.

wth are you talking about?

most of America's infrastructure was built by FDR through civil labor programs.

MershedPerturders says

wth are you talking about?

most of America's infrastructure was built by FDR through civil labor programs.

What parallel universe would that be? Railroads were built in the 19th century. The national highway program started under Eisenhower in the 1950's. The Hoover Dam is called Hoover Dam, not FDR Dam, for a reason. Not that any of them couldn't have been built less expensively.

indigenous says

You did not listen to a single thing Reality said about how thpse books are cooked, a while back.

http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Special_pleading

Reality says

the "Robber Barons" built the turnpikes, canals and railroads.

The railroads and canals had government help in many cases.

No, I'm not saying government should run everything.

freak80 says

Reality says

the "Robber Barons" built the turnpikes, canals and railroads.

The railroads and canals had government help in many cases.

No, I'm not saying government should run everything.

Indeed many "Robber Barons" were crony capitalists. Some were not. Guess which ones the government officials went after?

were on the cusp of WWIII and these pathetic moral degenerates on here are arguing for 'free markets' so they can make money in real estate. It's disgusting. California deserves to be nuked.

MershedPerturders says

most of America's infrastructure was built by FDR through civil labor programs

didnt do much of nothing until Factories in the late 40s and through out the 50s-60s started peak manufacturing exporting across the globe.

so the answer again is building factories for the long run. Roads otherwise have
no benefit. The other real infrastructure ... transportation industry was all private.

MershedPerturders says

were on the cusp of WWIII and these pathetic moral degenerates on here are arguing for 'free markets' so they can make money in real estate. It's disgusting. California deserves to be nuked.

There is no California.. perhaps it should be better known as
Northern Mexico or New York West.. Look at who is hustling RE in California
these days. Its mostly people from out of state.. east coast.

Real Californians already learned during the 89-91 recession, inflated
home prices do not work in California and have a horrible impact on jobs and economy.

Reality says

The "Robber Baron" term was coined in the late 19th century. The per capita income in the US increased from roughly 1% per year to 2% per year in the middle decades of the 19th century, after the "Robber Barons" built the turnpikes, canals and railroads.

Managed to get out of college without taking a history course somehow? It was required where I went to school.

Toll roads were from the late 1700's through the 1840's. Mostly funded by local citizens, merchants and farmers, with some state's subsiding, almost none turned any real profit. They existed to open up local industry to a wider market. Canals were 1800 to 1830's or so. Private capital wasn't enough to canals to be built so they were mostly private/government combined funding. Railroads were 1830's to 1870's. Lots of government involvement, lots of corruption. Canals and railroads killed the toll roads.

The robber barons of the guilded age were 1870's to early 1900's. They were industrialists and bankers. They used the infrastructure to build great wealth but they most certainly didn't build the infrastructure.

MershedPerturders says

a day of reckoning will soon be upon us.

Who will implement the "reckoning" knowing that "we" can retaliate up to nuclear weapons level?

bob2356 says

Managed to get out of college without taking a history course somehow? It was required where I went to school.

I satisfied the college requirement on American history by getting a 5 a AP test while in high school.

Toll roads were from the late 1700's through the 1840's. Mostly funded by local citizens, merchants and farmers, with some state's subsiding, almost none turned any real profit. They existed to open up local industry to a wider market. Canals were 1800 to 1830's or so. Private capital wasn't enough to canals to be built so they were mostly private/government combined funding. Railroads were 1830's to 1870's. Lots of government involvement, lots of corruption.

No kidding. Robber Barons often involved government cronies. While robbing taxpayers via government subsidy has a very long history, the speed of robbing via government granted privileges really took off in the middle of 19th century, leading to coining the term "Robber Baron."

The robber barons of the guilded age were 1870's to early 1900's. They were industrialists and bankers. They used the infrastructure to build great wealth but they most certainly didn't build the infrastructure.

Many robber barons made their first pot of gold in railroad. Incidentally, Lincoln was a corporate lawyer for one of the largest railroad companies, as was Douglas. What were the chances that the election of 1860 came down to between two railroad lawyers?!

Like I said, "Reality", if you think it's best to have no government, move to Somolia or Haiti. They are fine examples of libertarian paradise.

Reality says

I satisfied the college requirement on American history by getting a 5 a AP test while in high school.

This comment reminds me of history professors' common complaint that the most frustrating part of their job is overcoming all the falsehoods that students are taught in high school, especially about American history. The Texas school boards have had a particularly pernicious influence on American history textbooks. A high school AP test can show an aptitude for history, and 5 is the highest score, but the failure to pursue further study suggests a lack of serious interest.

Regarding the OP topic, there is now a Christian Dominion view to support Republican tax policy, i.e. wealth is a sign of divine favor, and raising taxes would go against divine will. In that view, if you're poor, you need to pray harder. It's the economic equivalent of faith healing, and like the American history textbooks, it is very heavily influenced by Texas.

Curious2 is exactly correct. The Religious Right's view is: if you are poor, it's because God is punishing you for your sin or lack of faith. Magical thinking is fundamental to the religious right. I know, because I grew up in that world.

We have a significant part of the voting public which is literally delusional.

freak80 says

Curious2 is exactly correct. The Religious Right's view is: if you are poor, it's because God is punishing you for your sin or lack of faith. Magical thinking is fundamental to the religious right. I know, because I grew up in that world.

Lol.. you know very little about the Western Tradition and history of self sustain's ones self as well as seeking new opportunities. Call it the Protestant work ethic or Catholic work ethic..

Its no wonder many like my great grandfather moved west ... while yours stayed behind. were they cowards like you today ?

curious2 says

Regarding the OP topic, there is now a Christian Dominion view to support Republican tax policy, i.e. wealth is a sign of divine favor, and raising taxes would go against divine will. In that view, if you're poor, you need to pray harder. It's the economic equivalent of faith healing, and like the American history textbooks, it is most heavily influenced by Texas.

How do you explain JF Kennedy's tax cut from 1960... was he also pushing to increase the poor ?

Reality says

No kidding. Robber Barons often involved government cronies. While robbing taxpayers via government subsidy has a very long history, the speed of robbing via government granted privileges really took off in the middle of 19th century, leading to coining the term "Robber Baron."

Robbing what taxpayers and what government subsidies are you talking about ? .. and what were they in 1800s considering the modern tax system came to be in the 1910s.

MershedPerturders says

There is precisely NO WAY we could be living the lifestyle that we do, the way we do it, without exploiting people. Let's try to do things first off without using illegal aliens, foreign labor, imports from slave states like China.

Very true. Not sure how this will lead to WW3 though...

More likely the American standard of living will continue to fall until we reach equilibrium with the rest of the world. In a globalized economy, everyone makes Bangladesh wages. Except for the few hundred billionaires living in floating cities in the ocean (where they can avoid taxation).

freak80 says

Like I said, "Reality", if you think it's best to have no government, move to Somolia or Haiti. They are fine examples of libertarian paradise.

Somali living standards improved faster during the time when they had no central government than any time when they had one during the last 200+ years.

Haiti is in practice a UN/US colony.

The US was founded on breaking free from the shackles of a big centralized government . . . i.e. the principles of liberty and freedom, which means liberty and freedom from big government.

curious2 says

Reality says

I satisfied the college requirement on American history by getting a 5 a AP test while in high school.

This comment reminds me of history professors' common complaint that the most frustrating part of their job is overcoming all the falsehoods that students are taught in high school, especially about American history. The Texas school boards have had a particularly pernicious influence on American history textbooks. A high school AP test can show an aptitude for history, and 5 is the highest score, but the failure to pursue further study suggests a lack of serious interest.

Two basic errors in your assumptions:

1. You assumed I took no further history courses and did no further study in history in college after satisfying basic college degree requirement. That assumption is thoroughly wrong. I mentioned AP history in high school to show that I had far more than average interest and knowledge in history, from early on. During 4yrs of college, in addition to my course work in classical history, my main past time on weekends was researching late 19th century and first half of 20th century warfare; i.e. industrialized warfare from ironclad age to the dawn of nuclear age. I actually read through the entire sets of official histories in green and blue. You should check it out at a good library to see just how many books that entails. That was before I switched interest to economic history during graduate school years.

2. You are assuming college history professors are disinterested parties in those comments belittling AP American history taught in high school. The professor who taught my AP class actually taught at college at the same time.

thomaswong.1986 says

Lol.. you know very little about the Western Tradition and history of self sustain's ones self as well as seeking new opportunities. Call it the Protestant work ethic or Catholic work ethic..

The Calvinist/Puritan Work Ethic is all about "proving" one is among The Elect (the ones God predestined to Salvation) by being financially successful. Those who are not financially successful are "obviously" among The Reprobate (the ones God predestined to Damnation). It's a great way to hide one's greed and/or contempt for the less fortunate behind a veil of pious religiosity. It's an attitude which is very common on the Religious Right today. I know, because I grew up in that world.

No, it's not a new idea in American culture. It's been with us since the Puritans landed here in 1620. Puritanism infects our whole culture.

freak80 says

More likely the American standard of living will continue to fall until we reach equilibrium with the rest of the world. In a globalized economy, everyone makes Bangladesh wages. Except for the few hundred billionaires living in floating cities in the ocean (where they can avoid taxation).

Bangladeshis make bangladeshi wages largely because of the weight of bureaucratic red tapes crushing the local economy. Give them a couple decades of relative market freedom, their wages would rise just as fast as those of Japanese and Chinese did.

Reality says

Bangladeshis make bangladeshi wages largely because of the weight of bureaucratic red tapes crushing the local economy.

Evidence for that?

freak80 says

Reality says

Bangladeshis make bangladeshi wages largely because of the weight of bureaucratic red tapes crushing the local economy.

Evidence for that?

Chinese and Vietnamese used to make less than Bangladeshis did . . . now they make more thanks to their market reforms/liberalization. Even wages in Bangladesh has been rising due to its slow pace market liberalization.

curious2 says

This comment reminds me of history professors' common complaint that the most frustrating part of their job is overcoming all the falsehoods that students are taught in high school, especially about American history.

Lincoln profited as president by dictating where the RR would go which was through his land. Which isn't too surprising considering that he got 650,000 Americans killed to protect the FED income from tariffs on southern exports. Not to mention that he could not care less about abolition.

Did any of these fun facts make into the recent Hollywood rendition of the Lincoln fairy tale?

Reality says

Many robber barons made their first pot of gold in railroad.

A few made their first pot of gold in railroad. Many more last their ass. Something like 30% of railroads went under in the panic of 1893. The ones that became really wealthy in railroads ( Morgan, Cornelius Vanderbilt, and Jay Gould) bought up and consolidated existing railroads that were already built.

Your comment was that the robber barons BUILT the railroads, canals, and tollways. Tollways and canals were long since built by the time the robber barons came onto the scene. Very few of the robber barons were the people who built the railroads. Are you sure the AP test you took was in history?

You guys forgot Cambodia in your no government rants.

OK, the problem is that our government was founded by, and for the People, so we are different from Europe in that way.

It was a deliberate wording to distinguish ourselves, our government, from monarchies, and aristocracies.

I especially like the Apollo 13? reference as not benefiting any one:

A November 1971 study of NASA released by the Midwest Research Institute of Kansas City, Missouri ("Technological Progress and Commercialization of Communications Satellites." In: "Economic Impact of Stimulated Technological Activity") concluded that "the $25 billion in 1958 dollars spent on civilian space R & D during the 1958-1969 period has returned $52 billion through 1971 -- and will continue to produce pay offs through 1987, at which time the total pay off will have been $181 billion. The discounted rate of return for this investment will have been 33 percent."

A map from NASA's web site illustrating its economic impact on the U.S. states (as of FY2003)
A 1992 article in the British science journal Nature reported:[14]

"The economic benefits of NASA's programs are greater than generally realized. The main beneficiaries (the American public) may not even realize the source of their good fortune. . ."

That's from Wikipedia, but there are many more detailed accounts out there:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Budget_of_NASA

indigenous says

the cost of a privately launched satellite is a fraction of the cost, you are smoking dope.

It wouldn't be possible to launch any satellite, public or private, w/o the massive government investments in NASA and the Apollo program. Basic science research and development is usually too risky and expensive for private companies.

Disclaimer for idiots: I'm not saying the government should run everything.

Some one else compared Intel to Federal government research?

There wouldn't be an Intel without government research.

Reality says

I satisfied the college requirement on American history by getting a 5 a AP test while in high school

You are a mouthpiece for the cr
onies and don't realize it.

My contentions ate based off of axioms of economics . Yours are based off of conjecture.

Which is how I can say that you cannot coherently say all government has value. And to think that is insane