patrick.net

edvard2 says

The tax situation also isn't exactly their doing either since the GOP has had this Reaganomics thing going on for some time.

You don't think they lobbied for the code to benefit themselves? Why are the GOP the handmaidens for the rich unless the rich have believed their Atlas Shrugged rhetoric and bought the lawmakers accordingly?

CL says

You don't think they lobbied for the code to benefit themselves?

Probably to a degree. But Reaganomics was mostly about Reagan's successful ploy to convince conservatives that "poor people are lazy" and hence undeserving of anything, and that all of those "hard-working" wealthy people deserved to pay less in taxes... jest because. Reaganomics was perhaps the single most significant factor at getting conservative Americans, whom before had actually embraced unions, fair taxation and job security to suddenly vote against their own self-interests by accepting the shit-end of the stick.

edvard2 says

CL says

You don't think they lobbied for the code to benefit themselves?

Probably to a degree. But Reaganomics was mostly about Reagan's successful ploy to convince conservatives that "poor people are lazy" and hence undeserving of anything, and that all of those "hard-working" wealthy people deserved to pay less in taxes... jest because. Reaganomics was perhaps the single most significant factor at getting conservative Americans, whom before had actually embraced unions, fair taxation and job security to suddenly vote against their own self-interests by accepting the shit-end of the stick.

The Gipper!

edvard2 says

This is going to sound like a worn-out record, but the upper earning populace is not being taxed properly

I would even disagree about that.

Low taxes across the board are helping the 1%, since they live on parasitical rents, and rents are relative to disposable income of their hosts.

All taxes come out of rents! The 1% pocketed everyone's 2001 tax cuts eventually!

Nobody gets this.

Germany has higher taxes across the board and that's partially why their housing cost burdens aren't off the hook like ours.

But yeah, when the top 5% earn 33% of the income, things are going to be unstable.

Unlike what the conservatives believe, this income flow isn't coming from magic machines in Galt's Gulch, it's being ripped out of the middle quintiles who face a daily gauntlet of rent-seeking that looks so much like end-game Monopoly.

$2000/mo+ rents for houses built before they were born. 15%+ credit card interest when 5 year rates are 1%. $30,000 average student loan burden now. $8000 per capita health care costs. $80 to fill up the car.

ka-ching ka-ching ka-ching.

Own or be owned.

smaulgld says

Technically the US is insolvent because we can only avoid default by borrowing more money!

wtf is this?

http://research.stlouisfed.org/fred2/series/CP

chopped liver?

smaulgld says

Technically the US is insolvent because we can only avoid default by
borrowing more money!

Do you feel the same way about finances when you bought a house or used a credit card in the past?

upisdown says

smaulgld says

Technically the US is insolvent because we can only avoid default by

borrowing more money!

Do you feel the same way about finances when you bought a house or used a credit card in the past?

Ronald Reagan showed us that deficits don't matter.

upisdown says

smaulgld says

Technically the US is insolvent because we can only avoid default by

borrowing more money!

Do you feel the same way about finances when you bought a house or used a credit card in the past?

One should not borrow money to pay the mortgage -if you have to do that you are insolvement and one can not use an extension of a credit card's credit line to pay the credit card monthly payment- the credit card company won't even allow it.

smaulgld says

upisdown
says

smaulgld
says

Technically the US is insolvent because we can only avoid default by

borrowing more money!

Do you feel the same way about finances when you bought a house or used a
credit card in the past?

One should not borrow money to pay the mortgage -if you have to do that you
are insolvement and one can not use an extension of a credit card's credit line
to pay the credit card monthly payment- the credit card company won't even allow
it.

I should have been more specific. You rail about the government debt being equal to 100% of the GDP and it can't ever be paid.

But, if you bought a house with a mortgage amount at 3x's your annual income, 100% of your income for the year wouldn't pay off the house, so you're insolvent and the end is near, or whatever the end-times routine of the day is.

So a significant part of society is about to suffer your prophetic apocalyptic revelations when they realize that or when reality bites them in the ass, right?

UpiSdown says: So a significant part of society is about to suffer your prophetic apocalyptic revelations when they realize that or when reality bites them in the ass, right?
---------------
Correct and millions of Americans did indeed default precisely because they took out too much credit
Governments are no different and many in history have defaulted. No person or country is immune to the laws of economics

smaulgld says

Correct and millions of Americans did indeed default precisely because they took
out too much credit
Governments are no different and many in history have
defaulted. No person or country is immune to the laws of economics

But a household cannot do the same things as our government can. For example the time constraint for earning income does not apply to the government just as much as the ability to fund ANY spending doesn't apply to households. There's also the credit limit households eventually hit, but the only limit to our government is the total debt limit, which can and usually will be hit and raised.

Why do you continue to assume our government is limited in it's actions as if it were a household?

Why do people think if the government defaults it'll be the end of the world?

France defaulted multiple times in the 19th Century and entered the 20th as the 2nd or 3rd most powerful nation in the world in terms of industry, prestige, population, colonial possessions, and military power.

thunderlips11 says

Why do people think if the government defaults it'll be the end of the world?

France defaulted multiple times in the 19th Century and entered the 20th as the 2nd or 3rd most powerful nation in the world in terms of industry, prestige, population, colonial possessions, and military power.

No reason to default when you can print up another 18 Trillion and be out of debt.

upisdown says

Why do you continue to assume our government is limited in it's actions as if it were a household?

I don't assume our government is limited in its actions as if it were a household. That is the problem, the government has no restraint on its borrowing, printing and spending.

thunderlips11 says

Why do people think if the government defaults it'll be the end of the world?

France defaulted multiple times in the 19th Century and entered the 20th as the 2nd or 3rd most powerful nation in the world in terms of industry, prestige, population, colonial possessions, and military power.

It's not the end of the world- it would just be painful for a long spell. And therein lies the hope that a default would structurally transform the US back to a producing nation

tatupu70 says

How is that clear? What specific policies of Obama's have been fiscally irresponsible?

Giving out Obamaphones and increasing food stamps as part of a stimulus.

Only 5 people signed up for Obamacare in DC? OOF!!!

http://www.politico.com/story/2013/11/obamacare-enrollments-washington-dc-99589.html

These are brave souls. Let's pray they don't encounter identity theft by the obamacare 'navigators'....

.... and speaking of Obamacare navigators...

It’s possible for convicted felons to become Obamacare navigators

wa??

http://michellemalkin.com/2013/11/06/sebelius-totally-re-establishes-americas-confidence-its-possible-for-convicted-felons-to-become-obamacare-navigators/

....."Sebelius said that screening potential navigators for criminal backgrounds is “not part of the federal requirement.” If crooks are smart they’ll first start by creating an account through the website — sometimes the system will just give you somebody else’s confidential information.

Those who Sebelius says have been contracted to take responsibility to ensure navigators are on the up-and-up wouldn’t include organizations like this one, would they? ....This can’t end well."........

Soooo, let me get this straight. Since Obama was elected, he's FORCING everyone to get healthcare under his rules. And now that those rules are being enforced, he and Sebelius can't guarantee that these navigators (that handle the most important data you have) aren't criminals, and that it's "NOT THE FEDERAL GOV'T's RESPONSIBILITY". WTF is that all about?

Obama and sebelius are clowns. This is yet another example of how thoughtless and inept the obama administration is, at handling 1/6th of the economy, and how gov't has intruded on your most personal interest: YOUR OWN HEALTH. Not vetting out the backgrounds of navigators? Pathetic!.... Hey independent voters: Time to eat your shit pie. You voted for this dunce TWICE! (here, let me get you a napkin. you're gonna need it).....

AverageBear says

Not vetting out the backgrounds of navigators?

I know you may find this hard to believe, but people LIE and slip through employment screening all the time. Might be all kinds of people you encounter in your daily life. Shit there's always the odd story about DOCTORS who aren't supposed to be practicing, but are. Unless we build those walls around NYC and dump all felons in there for life, it's gonna happen. They get released, they vanish into society, and some of them want to conceal their past because frankly they have higher aspirations than cleaning toilets the rest of their life.

Deal with it baby bear!

AverageBear says

t’s possible for convicted felons to become Obamacare navigators

Why exactly would convicted felons who have served their time and been released not be able to get a job as a navigator? I would think it would depend on the crime commited whether it mattered or not. Do you seriously believe convicted felons don't work at insurance companies that have exactly the same information?

Get a grip.

bob2356 says

Do you seriously believe convicted felons don't work at insurance companies that have exactly the same information?

Get a grip.

What's your point? Just because ex-cons wind up at insurance agencies, it's OK for them to wind up as one of Obamacare's navigators? That you are OK w/ your gov't not caring about who handles the most intimate data you could ever possess? Is this the best your logic can come up with? If so, God help you.

Vicente says

I know you may find this hard to believe, but people LIE and slip through employment screening all the time. Might be all kinds of people you encounter in your daily life.

Vic, I know what you mean. Our president totally fits your description. HAHAHAAA....

AverageBear says

Vic, I know what you mean. Our president totally fits your description.

Oh you're a BIRTHER, never mind.

AverageBear says

bob2356 says

Do you seriously believe convicted felons don't work at insurance companies that have exactly the same information?

Get a grip.

What's your point? Just because ex-cons wind up at insurance agencies, it's OK for them to wind up as one of Obamacare's navigators? That you are OK w/ your gov't not caring about who handles the most intimate data you could ever possess? Is this the best your logic can come up with? If so, God help you.

Where's your outrage at all the other places ex cons can work that handle personal information? Why does is suddenly only bother you when it's obamacare? You don't think "the most intimate data you could ever possess" can't be obtained in a heartbeat at any time? Get a grip. If it's on a computer somewhere it's not secure already.

Ummm.. Maybe you need it to be explained multiple times, or in simpler terms for you to understand... Obamacare demands that you need health insurance, under their rules and requirements. So stringent, that Obama doesn't give a fuck if your previous plan was good enough. Sooo, they tell that once your plan doesn't qualify, or isn't being renewed, you are forced to use a website that doesnt work. Then if by small miracle you do enroll, your data can fall into the hands of criminals THAT THEY HIRED. They force you into buying something 'in their store', but say they aren't responsible for the people they hire? That is a fuckin' weak excuse. You must have such low standards, or just can't grasp how bad Obamacare was conceived and deployed.... It seems you are OK with how inept Obama's 'solution' is. I am not.....

Vicente says

AverageBear says

Vic, I know what you mean. Our president totally fits your description.

Oh you're a BIRTHER, never mind.

.....Oh, you are projecting again. Never mind..

bob2356 says

Where's your outrage at all the other places ex cons can work that handle personal information? Why does is suddenly only bother you when it's obamacare? You don't think "the most intimate data you could ever possess" can't be obtained in a heartbeat at any time? Get a grip. If it's on a computer somewhere it's not secure already.

The business sector was using convicted felons to process credit card transactions and other "personal" and "risky" information for a long time. I guess that's okay, because they were paying a low wage and passing the savings on to you, the customer!.

If it's only getting insurance to sick or poor, it's too much! Fuck the sick and poor...that's in the bible!

sbh says

AverageBear says

you are projecting again

You need to get some new material.

No. You need to stop projecting. I guess you'll never shake that monkey off your back. One can only hope, eh?

Here's a message from Democrats, to those that voted for Obama.. Something to ponder in Nov '14, if you were unfortunate to lose your insurance between now and then....

....."Okay, we lied about you being able to keep your present coverage, and we lied about you being able to choose your own doctor, and we lied about you being able to see specialists without referrals, and we lied about premiums not going up, and we lied about not imposing taxes, and we lied about the act paying for itself, and we lied about the website being ready, and we lied about instituting mandates, and we lied about the penalties, and we lied about the deadlines, and we lied about...well, just about everything. Now, what are you going to do about it?".......

Pot calling the kettle black?

Republican lies:

"Obamacare is socialized medicine"
"There will be death panels"
"We had the best healthcare system in the world before Obamacare"
"There will be new taxes on the working class"
"A worker who makes $30,000 will have to pay $15,000 for insurance" - Paul Rand
"Obamacare is killing jobs"
"There will be healthcare rationing"
"Obama made himself exempt from his own law"

Speaking of lies, at least two of the "Democrat lies" cited in Average Bear's post are not that at all; they are REPUBLICAN lies.

There is no evidence that the average premium is going up, especially after you take subsidies into account. Some might go up; others might go down, but to say "Premiums are going up" is a lie.

And the assertion that the act doesn't pay for itself is pure bullshit. The CBO estimates it will REDUCE the deficit, not increase it.

sbh says

AverageBear says

You need to stop projecting

No, seriously, you need to be able to formulate some concept beyond this vapid non-response.

No, seriously. You need to be able to stop portraying shit that you imagine I'd say, or imagine how I'd think. That shit is for 8th graders. Really. Making jokes like A-FUCK (which i enjoy) is one thing, but when you lean on your jokes/projections to back an argument, it makes you look like...... a child in the 8th grade.

I'll stop my 'vapid' responses in callling you out on projecting when, well, you stop projecting.

Projecting me as a racist/redneck/welfare-recipient/misogynist/anti-semite? Ah, no. I'm just a fiscal conservative, and more of a social independent.

So keep projecting, and I'll keep calling you out on it.

Some gems you've recently 'projected'. 'Nuf said....

- “Remember how hard it is for you to swallow the fiscal immaturity of your party? You so want to be like Greece and default on your bills!”

- “What also really burns you up is that you can't get much from it. Is it so frustrating that so many Americans just deal with it instead of "getting down and hating someone about it"?”

• Pro-choice voter: "I'm pro-choice."
Pro-life voter #1: "Let's ask your mother if she wishes she had aborted you, asshole."
Pro-life voter #2: "Yeah, asshole."
Pro-choice voter: "Why would you bother? Her opinion doesn't count anyway."
Pro-life voter #2: "Hey, #1, go ahead and ask the bitch anyway, just keep your voice down and don't give her any ideas." (you must have been off your meds for this one....)

- The problem is Fox told me that Obamacare was forcing chicken producers

- You've just described the Tealiban foot soldier. He rises from the ranks of the undereducated white-trash Red state. He sees his cause as "grass-roots" but it's funded by the Koch brothers. He leans hard on welfare and never admits it. He's underpaid and believes it's the darkies' fault. He's living hand-to-mouth and believes it's because the Jews have fixed prices too high. Half his family is on disability because Obama has made insurance for real Americans just too damn expensive.

- Here's how to transform Detroit: move the Mason-Dixon line waaaay up north and hang up a bunch of confederate flags. What you have then is a rural GOP bible-belt success story.

AverageBear says

Then if by small miracle you do enroll, your data can fall into the hands of criminals THAT THEY HIRED. They force you into buying something 'in their store', but say they aren't responsible for the people they hire? That is a fuckin' weak excuse. You must have such low standards, or just can't grasp how bad Obamacare was conceived and deployed.... It seems you are OK with how inept Obama's 'solution' is. I am not.....

I've never been ok with aca, i guess you don't actually read people's posts, That being said your personal information falls into the hands of convicted felons who have finished serving their time every single day. WTF makes aca any different other than you are just looking for any meaningless bs rather than being able to put together reasoned arguments on the true problems.

I go away on a vacation and come back and what's new? Nuttin'. The same righty-wingers trying to wring absolutely anything they can out of " oohhh-oooohhh-oooohhh! Obama LIED!!!!! So basically the same ole' shit before I left.

Its also ironic that the blame is being put on ACA: Its NOT the ACA that's dropping its patients, but rather the INSURANCE companies. Have any of you right-wingers thought about that for just a second and thought "Gee-I guess the system we had totally sucked." Why? Because insurance companies were dropping their patients by the millions well before the passage of ACA, and back then if you got dropped... well too effin' bad because you basically were sort of shit out of luck. So now people who do in fact get dropped from the crappy plans they were on can now re-enroll into a better plan and in the majority of cases, for less.

Lastly, do you want to know why some of these stories about people now paying more versus less are popping up? Why- its because in almost all of these cases its because the people in question happen to have the misfortune of living in one of those red states where the state government out of no reason other than political ones decided to do their best to make the law as ineffective as possible, which in turn means they created a scenario where future patients will have to pay more versus other states- like California- where the enrollment and payment plan costs are lower. How completely stupid is that?

edvard2 says

Its also ironic that the blame is being put on ACA: Its NOT the ACA that's dropping its patients, but rather the INSURANCE companies.

What's ironic is that liberals who defend Obamacare like to point out that "Hey, it's not Obamacare, it's the insurance agencies fault for dropped coverage"... But guess what? What tune do the insurance companies have to dance to? That's right. The laws and regulations that Obamacare is forcing them to adhere to. Don't give me that crap that it's the fault of the insurance companies. They are doing what Obama is telling them to do. Because it's "The Law of the Land"..... And BTW, the rate of people losing their coverage since Obamacare has been enacted FAR EXCEEDS those that lost their insurance before Obamacare was enacted.

....."So now people who do in fact get dropped from the crappy plans they were on can now re-enroll into a better plan and in the majority of cases, for less.".....

Wow. Really? You really think that? Got any links/proof for that whopper?

AverageBear says

What's ironic is that liberals who defend Obamacare like to point out that "Hey, it's not Obamacare, it's the insurance agencies fault for dropped coverage"... But guess what? What tune do the insurance companies have to dance to? That's right. The laws and regulations that Obamacare is forcing them to adhere to. Don't give me that crap that it's the fault of the insurance companies. They are doing what Obama is telling them to do. Because it's "The Law of the Land"..... And BTW, the rate of people losing their coverage since Obamacare has been enacted FAR EXCEEDS those that lost their insurance before Obamacare was enacted.

Nope. Wrong once more. You did not address the fact that millions prior to Obamacare were losing their insurance and basically had zero to no recourse. By that fact alone the costs of healthcare for those affected were astronomical because the only choice they had was to pay for medical care out of pocket-aka- have NO insurance.

Again- back up the train a bit. The people who are getting their plans dropped were mainly on crappy plans to begin with. Yes- new standards were created. Minimum standards. Looking at it from a comparative perspective, this would be akin to a car failing to pass inspection because it lacked seat belts and thus needed to have those installed.

Lastly, the plans affected were actually altered AFTER the implementation of the ACA act, meaning that the plans that got dropped were NOT the SAME plans as existed prior to the rollout. So again- if you're looking for blame, place it where its due.

Oh- and BTW, Obama just now announced that a change has been made and those who had lost their old ( and altered ) plans can keep them for another year yet. So I assume that should make all of you folks bellowing on and on about this super happy... right?

AverageBear says

but fails to realize that Obama made a promise that he'd cut the deficit in half and reduce our taxes when he first got elected.

Taxes for the middle class are lower than they have been in over 60 years. Lower than under Reagan, Bush Sr, and Bush Jr.

There is no lack of access to medical services. There is a desire for some dope smoking liberal pukes to expand welfare.

....."For four years, this debate has been theoretical. Now it’s real. And for Democrats, it’s a disaster.

It begins with the bungled rollout. If Washington can’t even do the Web site — the literal portal to this brave new world — how does it propose to regulate the vast ecosystem of American medicine?

Beyond the competence issue is the arrogance. Five million freely chosen, freely purchased, freely renewed health-care plans are summarily canceled. Why? Because they don’t meet some arbitrary standard set by the experts in Washington.

For all his news conference gyrations about not deliberately deceiving people with his “if you like it” promise, the law Obama so triumphantly gave us allows you to keep your plan only if he likes it. This is life imitating comedy — that old line about a liberal being someone who doesn’t care what you do as long as it’s mandatory."....

Great article out by Krauthammer today...

http://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/charles-krauthammer-why-liberals-are-panicked-about-obamacare/2013/11/14/bd2e9834-4d6f-11e3-be6b-d3d28122e6d4_story.html

edvard2 says

AverageBear says

but fails to realize that Obama made a promise that he'd cut the deficit in half and reduce our taxes when he first got elected.

Taxes for the middle class are lower than they have been in over 60 years. Lower than under Reagan, Bush Sr, and Bush Jr.

Could it because that avg. family is earning less than they were under Reagan, Bush Sr, and W?? Yes, Martha, when you earn less, you pay less taxes....

And speaking of taxes and Obamacare.....

I guess Obama missed his chance on this one…..
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/10/22/payroll-tax-increase-2012_n_2000217.html

Well, Obamacare is a ‘tax’.. So says Chief Justice John Roberts. Remember?.....
http://www.forbes.com/sites/merrillmatthews/2012/06/29/is-obamacare-the-largest-tax-increase-in-u-s-history/

AverageBear says

Could it because that avg. family is earning less than they were under
Reagan, Bush Sr, and W?? Yes, Martha, when you earn less, you pay less
taxes....

No it couldn't. Because that's not true.