patrick.net

It's odd that you want to blame the boomers for something.

Have you an idea how shitty the job market was for many boomers in the 70's and early 80's? I know. I know many entrepreneurs who did it only because after college they couldn't find work.

I agree that house prices being high are not good. Housing that's too expensive is not helpful to anyone.

I know plenty of boomers who after divorce have vacated their houses giving up the equity therein.

Re: your points of housing recovery. Of course you are correct, there wasn't a proper and complete housing price fall which would have made houses more affordable. Higher priced houses are not a recovery either.

But either way, if people are unemployed, what difference does it make? The policies from Washington are discouraging work, increasing regulations and taxes, encouraging illegal foreign workers, so now wages are falling and 92 million people are out of the workforce.

clambo says

It's odd that you want to blame the boomers for something.

I'm not blaming them, I am asking them to stop using terms that don't apply to more than half the population, like "recovery". Plus, I didn't say a thing about the lack of jobs for either generation, and I made note that I was sure the boomers worked hard. You missed my point, because it had nothing to do with jobs, except the point that now we all have to have two incomes to survive. I also made sure to point out this was true of most under 55, not just under 40, in the case of two incomes.

hrhjuliet says

Dear Boomers,

The problem is that the Boomers simply don't care about any other generation. For their entire lives, the world revolved around them. Ultimately, fucking over their children and great-grandchildren is going to bite them back in the ass.

- There won't be enough jobs and thus enough Social Security taxes to pay for the Boomer's retirement.

- The high housing prices will ultimately be adjusted by currency debasement which will outpace Social Security raises. What the Boomers gain in an inflated housing market, they will loose several times over in higher medical costs, pill costs, utility costs, food costs, and everything else.

- The resentment the younger generations have for the Boomers will ensure little and poor end of life care.

- Finally, when they kick the bucket, the higher housing prices will hit them with estate taxes preventing their kids from inheriting the homes they still live in. Their kids will have to rent the houses they live in from the banks that bought the houses from the government. This is the end of the housing bubble. The bank owns all the houses and we are all their tenants for life.

clambo says

Have you an idea how shitty the job market was for many boomers in the 70's and early 80's? I know. I know many entrepreneurs who did it only because after college they couldn't find work.

Yes, my uncle was laid off from his factory job in the eighties. I remember the heartache, what I wrote above is not discounting that, even though statistically our job market is worse, and almost all industry is now out sourced, including my uncle's factory job. I didn't even bring up our job market above? My issue is that for the same paying job as someone from the seventies or eighties we get so much less: no home, no pension, no retirement, no social security and both parents have to work. My uncle lost his job, but not his home. He bought his home with a safe loan for less than twice his income and they paid it off while he worked odd jobs and collected from the Navy. His wife never had to go to work, and they kept their pension, union retirement and social security. Not an uncommon story for the time, but unheard of now.

There are horror stories and tales of hardship from every generation, all I am asking for is some respect and credit to an entire generation who's main function is to just survive long enough to prop up the system. We struggle like heck, and all we get is a big screw you, dry your eyes and suck it up from most boomers. Not all boomers, just most of them. My own father is disgusted by what his generation is leaving ours. Of course, statistically he came before the boomers, so maybe he doesn't count.

hrhjuliet says

statistically he came before the boomers

I have noticed that generations prior to the boomers distinguished sharply between debt and equity, while boomers either fail to distinguish or deliberately obfuscate the distinction. Boomers grew up in a time of rising prosperity and chronic inflation, so debt seems "smart" to them and doesn't carry any stigma. They refer to credit as "spending power" and sometimes even refer to "equity" in a credit card, as in they haven't reached their credit limit yet. That used to be a joke, "I can't be broke - I still have some checks left." Somehow it stopped being a joke. So, it seems perfectly natural to boomers that younger people should borrow as much as possible to buy overpriced assets including especially houses. Boomers grew up with that being public policy, the 30-year federally guaranteed mortgage began after WWII, the same time the boomers were born, so it's their patriotic duty. As Lilly Allen would say, "I am a weapon of massive consumption, it's not my fault it's how I'm programmed to function." I also find myself losing respect for Paul Krugman, who keeps exhorting America to borrow and spend more money; he has no children, and he seems to be saying, "Après moi, le déluge."

hrhjuliet says

could please stop calling exorbitant home prices a "recovery,"

It's not a recovery its a road block to first time home buyers

http://smaulgld.com/the-dark-side-of-rising-home-prices/

Dan8267 says

The problem is that the Boomers simply don't care about any other generation. For their entire lives, the world revolved around them. Ultimately, fucking over their children and great-grandchildren is going to bite them back in the ass.

Quite absurd to generalize about an entire generation

I looked it up, 1938 is considered the Silent Generation. So my father is not a boomer. Too bad, he would have been a shining example of a caring boomer. My father is very out spoken about the loss of our civil liberties and about the poor choices available to generation X. He always enjoyed generation x employees, because on an average, he liked their ingenuity and modest attitude.

It's funny to hear my dad is part of the Silent Generation! He is anything but silent! ;-)

The downside of being a boomer is they didn't treat their bodies well at all. The amount of sugar and fat consumed over their lives means they will only live a short retirement while enjoying their overpriced homes. Patience to the generation following will be of the utmost importance. I see more and more home even now being sold because people have either passed away or can't get up the stairs anymore. I am sure this will be more common in 5-10 years as the boomers age.

curious2 says

They refer to credit as "spending power" and sometimes even refer to "equity" in a credit card, as in they haven't reached their credit limit yet. That used to be a joke, "I can't be broke - I still have some checks left." Somehow it stopped being a joke. So, it seems perfectly natural to boomers that younger people should borrow as much as possible to buy overpriced assets including especially houses. Boomers grew up with that being public policy, the 30-year federally guaranteed mortgage began after WWII, the same time the boomers were born, so it's their patriotic duty. As Lilly Allen would say, "I am a weapon of massive consumption, it's not my fault it's how I'm programmed to function." I also find myself losing respect for Paul Krugman, who keeps exhorting America to borrow and spend more money; he has no children, and he seems to be saying, "Après moi, le déluge."

You are absolutely correct. My dad is definitely not a boomer. He has very conservative (in the old way this word was used) views on borrowing. My dad doesn't owe a thing to anyone - clearly he can't be a boomer! ;-)

smaulgld says

Quite absurd to generalize about an entire generation

A generalization, by definition, does not apply to all members of a set but rather to a majority. Without generalization no book could ever have been written on any subject matter. And that would be quite absurd.

Not to mention hypocritical as the Boomers have had no problems generalizing about
- Prior Generations
"Never trust anyone over 30."
- Gen X
"Lazy slackers"
-Millennials
"Incompetent and unwilling to pay their dues"

We younger generations are free to express our opinion of what the Boomers have done to the world. And ultimately, we will be the ones to write how the Boomers go down in history.

The boomers I know all studied, worked, saved and some have nothing to show for it except mortgages.

It's human nature to protect what you think is yours, so house owners like the concept of house values rising. Smart ones realize it's hard to spend it so they know better.

I feel sorry for people who can't get ahead. Do young people want to get ahead today? I don't know, but judging from what I see here and there, not really.

My boomer friend has kids who 1. chose to study bullshit subjects 2. chose to stay here not leave town to find their careers 3. haven't grown up yet although in their 20's.

I see lots of young people who sport iPhones, cars, tattoos, cable tv etc. which are things I would NEVER have paid for just out of college. No fucking way would I have PAID for TV, or carried something worth $500 around in my hand.

My first car after college was a beat up old Volvo I paid cash for. Did I impress chicks with it? At that age it didn't matter to me.

My other friend over in Texas is a late "boomer" so his kids are still teenagers but are they mowing lawns, painting fences, scraping boat hulls, etc. to make money to spend? No way, "daddy, I need gas money" etc.

I say to my friend "you need your son to be out there busting rocks before you give him a penny. Tell him to ride the fucking bus to visit his friends, etc."

Young people feel entitled today. Well, you voted for Obama now fucking deal with it kids.

Who ever said that a robust job market was something you could count on? Not a boomer, we've never counted on that. We know better, we can remember CARTER. Now you guys get to learn this lesson all over.
I'll make another rude genereralizaton; boys have been pussified in their schooling to the point that they don't like to take responsibility for either their behavior, feelings, or lack of money.
Want money? Go out there and make it. Mexicans stole your entry level job? Complain to the businessowners. Tell your representatives to support American workers.
I have never seen so many young "girlymen" in my life walking around today, it's pathetic.
The world is a jungle, get used to it boys, quit moaning and go kick ass.

RentingForHalfTheCost says

The downside of being a boomer is they didn't treat their bodies well at all. The amount of sugar and fat consumed over their lives means they will only live a short retirement while enjoying their overpriced homes. Patience to the generation following will be of the utmost importance. I see more and more home even now being sold because people have either passed away or can't get up the stairs anymore. I am sure this will be more common in 5-10 years as the boomers age.

Well my MIL is luckily an exception! A total health nut and gym enthusiast. There are of course exceptions to every generalization, but unfortunately, the majority is just what you wrote above.

hrhjuliet says

I looked it up, 1938 is considered the Silent Generation.

Yes, the Silent Generation is far, far better than the Boomers and much more respectable. Even the generation before that, despite some very racist attitudes, was more respectable.

hrhjuliet says

It's funny to hear my dad is part of the Silent Generation! He is anything but silent! ;-)

Gen X is sometimes referred to as the second silent generation. The term "silent" does not mean that the generation doesn't speak; it means that the generation isn't heard.

clambo says

No fucking way would I have PAID for TV, or carried something worth $500 around in my hand.

What young person pays for T.V.? That's like paying for music. Young people don't do that.

Dan8267 says

Not to mention hypocritical as the Boomers have had no problems generalizing about "Never trust anyone over 30. etc"

Individuals made up those slogans, not a generation

clambo says

My boomer friend has kids who 1. chose to study bullshit subjects 2. chose to stay here not leave town to find their careers 3. haven't grown up yet although in their 20's.

I see lots of young people who sport iPhones, cars, tattoos, cable tv etc. which are things I would NEVER have paid for just out of college. No fucking way would I have PAID for TV, or carried something worth $500 around in my hand.

My first car after college was a beat up old Volvo I paid cash for. Did I impress chicks with it? At that age it didn't matter to me.

These are millennials, and their grandparents usually buy these toys for them. Where do you think they get the money? Go around the classroom after Christmas and ask what every senior in High School received, and about 90% say an iPod from their grandparent, sometimes parent.

I paid for my own college while working two jobs and receiving scholarships. I hardly purchase anything outside of groceries and gas. I drive a 97 Corolla, and it impresses no one that I know.

Generation x are not known for being big spenders, and most could care less about name brand cars.

Most of us work two jobs and hardly see our spouse because they also work. I know plenty of people with very serviceable degrees from Stanford who are out of work or working at Starbucks to get by.

Make all the validations you need, it doesn't change a thing.

Here is an example of how higher home prices is supposedly a good thing. Mortgage applications are at a record low BUT BUT loan size is at a record high.

http://www.cnbc.com/id/101604588

nothing to cheer about

smaulgld says

Dan8267 says

The problem is that the Boomers simply don't care about any other generation. For their entire lives, the world revolved around them. Ultimately, fucking over their children and great-grandchildren is going to bite them back in the ass.

Quite absurd to generalize about an entire generation

Generally speaking professional ballet dancers are in good health, intelligent and like art, and the ugly truth is they are usually white, foreign trained and female, there are exceptions, but it does not change the truth about the majority.

It's not absurd, it's terrible, but unfortunately for the majority of boomers what we are saying is true. I know exceptions, but they are rare. We have to acknowledge the truth.

smaulgld says

Dan8267 says

Not to mention hypocritical as the Boomers have had no problems generalizing about "Never trust anyone over 30. etc"

Individuals made up those slogans, not a generation

And multitudes of individual repeated them.

Not every Muslim in the Middle East hates America, but there are a lot chanting "Death to America". So it's not unreasonable to generalize that US-Middle-Eastern relations needs improvement.

For those of us under 40, the deck is stacked against us. There's still opportunity, but we have to be a little wierd in the way we live to take advantage of it.
What's "wierd?" Glad you asked. A recent poster asked if he should keep his $4500/month rent or buy a condo for 1.5 million. I just couldn't get past the first statement. Maybe his income is a bit more than mine, but I would never consider paying so much for rent of an apartment. The way to get ahead in this life is to save capital and then put it to work. The first step requires that you minimize your expenditures. Paying double or more for housing is just a waste IMHO, and keeps you from saving. Buying new cars does the same, with the price, payment, insurance, and high taxes. Having to buy everything new, instead of gently used is also not making good use of your income. Having to throw expensive parties and give elaborate gifts also sets you back.
Everything you spend money on, REGARDLESS of your income, sets you back in the game of capital acquisition.

I recently bought a house, whether or not that was a great decision, but the monthly financials made sense. But I couldn't have done this without having saved a large amount of cash using the same practices I've delineated here.
We drive ten and twelve year old cars that I maintain carefully. We have kids, but try not to spoil them, encouraging learning and artistic craftsmanship over consumerist values. It's not what you have that matters, it's what you can DO! After all, nearly all products decrease in value precipitously, rendering the money used for their purchase lost. Their value, then, lies in their usage between those points of purchase and disposal.

sbh says

I'll make a wild guess and posit that the Boomers who acted responsibly with debt and lifestyle during their time of prosperity did so because they took to heart the hard lessons of their parents' generation. My parents were born in the late 20s, with my father having been born in the year of the crash. If you revere your parents you tend to cherish the foundations of their wisdom and learned experience. Even though we don't want to be them, or live the life they lived in the world they lived in, in our own way and in our own time we recapitulate their strength and virtue as best we can. If we can pull that off we will be a burden to no one, and we will leave the remainder of our wealth to the good of the future.

To the few like you, my hat is off and I give you full credit for being a shinning exception.

Quigley says

Paying double or more for housing is just a waste IMHO, and keeps you from saving. Buying new cars does the same, with the price, payment, insurance, and high taxes. Having to buy everything new, instead of gently used is also not making good use of your income. Having to throw expensive parties and give elaborate gifts also sets you back.

Everything you spend money on, REGARDLESS of your income, sets you back in the game of capital acquisition.

I recently bought a house, whether or not that was a great decision, but the monthly financials made sense. But I couldn't have done this without having saved a large amount of cash using the same practices I've delineated here.

We drive ten and twelve year old cars that I maintain carefully. We have kids, but try not to spoil them, encouraging learning and artistic craftsmanship over consumerist values. It's not what you have that matters, it's what you can DO!

We are kindred spirits for sure. :-)

smaulgld says

It's not a recovery its a road block to first time home buyers

I think it is more than that.

It is very interesting to read the various view points and back and forth on this site.

To me, forgive me, I am not racist, but this is a good way to put it.

We have all become the 'Black People' of the 1960's.

The system is designed and laws are in place where the top .01%, the banks, the wealthy, the oligarch's can freely invest without risk, and if they fail, the debt becomes public debt. Too bad Beeoch is the prevailing attitude.

We are all being financially discriminated against.

Need an example? Please name one property auction site that actually wants to sell property to 'street people' with a loan?

"Investor financing available" is what you will find. They simply have no interest in dealing with any other type of customer.

Or, cash buyers can go to the court house steps.

Sure, we can pay the street price offered with a loan.

sbh says

Be careful voicing support of a liberal on patnet, it will result in numerous automatic insults and dislikes. As an admittedly redneck liberal I fail the purity test.

Did you see how it went the last time I agreed with you? You are right. I've been waiting for Strategist to write something like, "Boomers are cool, do you not like success" or something equally as WTF and off the point.

It's not that you are too liberal, it's that you are too logical for most on this site.

jazz music says

Extremely well paid right wing announcers are everywhere telling us to blame the poor in need, and the sick, the exact opposite of the truth. Anything that could slow wealth accumulation is probable terrorism. Announcers take the tone of some irritable authority figure or owner's voice. They use patriotic nostalgic images. People like to identify with that, that's the side that's winning, that angry voice sounds like the grown up in the room, the side that ought to win.

Join the police force, they still get a dignified retirement where they get to monopolize local legislation and politics.

Maybe this sounds like a crazy old man, but it sure feels like "repent, the end is near" might be a pretty good idea about now.

Apologies in advance for painting such a thoroughly horrible landscape. What ever you do, don't go kill yourself, okay? You can still snuggle a puppy or play music.

Jazz, you always make me smile. :-)
Great post.

jazz music says

Modern day California is losing it's status as the place everyone wants to be.

It continues to become more of a shithole in its own doing. Places like the Bay Area are so anti-development that cost of living is too high and it's super business-unfriendly, although somehow tech has managed to thrive nonetheless. The legislature keeps de-funding schools and universities, which won't help. California isn't spending enough money to maintain existing infrastructure, much less improve it for the future (although hopefully HSR goes through and counters that a bit). Prop 13 has taken away local control of local issues in favor of state control by an incompetent legislature. Public employee pensions are insane. Cost of living keeps getting higher, and taxes are already high excluding property tax, so people's standard of living keeps dropping. This is not the California that people remember.

Giving credit to my healthy MIL, who barely makes it to boomer status, being born in 1943, but makes it just the same. She agreed with every word and reposted on her Facebook with title " Shame on us," so clearly there are exceptions to the rule, plus boomers who care, as proven by my MIL, sbh and jazz.

It's good to feel some boomers truly care and see our plight for what it is. Honestly, it helps just to know some of the boomers are on our side and sympathize.

curious2 says

Boomers grew up with that being public policy, the 30-year federally guaranteed mortgage began after WWII, the same time the boomers were born, so it's their patriotic duty. As Lilly Allen would say, "I am a weapon of massive consumption, it's not my fault it's how I'm programmed to function." I also find myself losing respect for Paul Krugman, who keeps exhorting America to borrow and spend more money; he has no children, and he seems to be saying, "Après moi, le déluge."

Very true, and I love that song. I choreographed to it this year. I'm sure some parents will be shocked, but it's modern ballet, it's okay to shock a little. :-)

hrhjuliet says

The middle-class is dying, and this practice of exorbitant home prices is shoving the middle-class right out the door. The middle-class in America is going to die with the boomers if we don't make changes.

What changes do you propose?

hrhjuliet says

All I am asking is that people take responsibility and simply admit that the housing "recovery" is for the boomers, the mega rich, real estate agents and foriegners. Admit that's what you mean by "recovery" and admit we have it tough. Go ahead keep up your "grab all" living, I am not asking you give up your high standard of living in sacrifice for the next two or three undeserving generations, all I ask, with a heartfelt plea, is that you admit people under forty have it rough, give us some credit, and stop using the term recovery or stabilized.

Isn't that kinda pessimistic?

hrhjuliet says

id you see how it went the last time I agreed with you? You are right. I've been waiting for Strategist to write something like, "Boomers are cool, do you not like success" or something equally as WTF and off the point.

Oh gawd, I need another drink. You are just like my wife.

You did exactly what I said you would do? Why prove me right Strategist? My goodness you poor man, yes, get yourself a drink and your poor wife too.

Sounds like a touching Winston Churchill moment between Strategist and hrhjuliet.

"if you were my husband, I would poison your tea."

"if you were my wife, I would drink it."

Ceffer says

Sounds like a touching Winston Churchill moment between Strategist and hrhjuliet.

"if you were my husband, I would poison your tea."

"if you were my wife, I would drink it."

He he he.
I still love you, hrhjuliet.

Strategist says

Ceffer says

Sounds like a touching Winston Churchill moment between Strategist and hrhjuliet.

"if you were my husband, I would poison your tea."

"if you were my wife, I would drink it."

He he he.

I still love you, hrhjuliet.

Actually, I must concede that I would be very sad to not see your posts. You do make a solid point sometimes.

This is interesting...very much so.

I always felt a bit different, especially so from those just a few years after me.

I'm solidly GenX, my parents and almost all the older people in my family are Silent Generation. I can't think of any that qualify as Baby Boomers.

Growing up, my extended family was close. I knew what my grandparents and great aunts and uncles had been through during the great depression and WWII. I loved history so I listened to them. I also loved baseball and baseball history from a very young age and when I looked at a guy like Ted Williams career stats and saw two periods of several years where he didn't play...my curiousity was aroused even more.

In my studies and research had always hated the 60's and 70's. I couldn't figure out what the heck people were doing. The drug use was just nonsense IMO. What I did see is an older generation that had literally gone through hell. And wound up building a near nirvana. At least on the outside. And before anyone brings up race issues, outside the south and selected areas like east Texas and urban white areas on the "wrong side of the tracks", blacks were seeing unprecedented financial success...at least until the Great Society. I'm sure there was psychological trauma that boiled through at this time. But overall, we had one of the most prosperous forward thinking societies ever. A bit restrictive, but counterculture was doing a real good job addressing that.

But then the damn kids looked the gift horse in the mouth. Couldn't just take life on its own terms...work hard, enjoy your spare time, love and care about your family and your community. And out of all that crap...once the drugs and communes and screwing any willing cunt went away....it turns out that the Boomers were a bunch of greedy fucks who were so selfish that they couldn't even be bothered to properly raise their own kids.

Also FU to the Boomers for spawning horrible movies like Parenthood. Lets all work out our weirdness because I couldn't before I got married and have kids *sticks finger down throat".

Pick up the load GenXers and start having lots of kids. We need the taxes!

Blurtman says

Pick up the load GenXers and start having lots of kids. We need the taxes!

Having kids will only increase the consumption of tax revenues. For 22 years, the kids won't produce anything. And when they finally reach adulthood, they will still consume more than they produce because of the lack of jobs. Just look at the unemployment rate for Millennials.

How about we get the unemployment rate down to zero, and then you can bitch and moan about how we need more workers.

Just remember that every time the Boomers outsourced a job to Chindia, they also gave away the tax revenue that job produced. Same for H1B Visas. A job that would normally pay 100k+/yr and produce 30k/yr in taxes, now pays 40k/yr and produces 5k/yr in taxes due to lower tax rate, foreign tax deduction, etc.

Dan8267 says

Blurtman says

Pick up the load GenXers and start having lots of kids. We need the taxes!

Having kids will only increase the consumption of tax revenues. For 22 years, the kids won't produce anything. And when they finally reach adulthood, they will still consume more than they produce because of the lack of jobs. Just look at the unemployment rate for Millennials.

How about we get the unemployment rate down to zero, and then you can bitch and moan about how we need more workers.

Just remember that every time the Boomers outsourced a job to Chindia, they also gave away the tax revenue that job produced. Same for H1B Visas. A job that would normally pay 100k+/yr and produce 30k/yr in taxes, now pays 40k/yr and produces 5k/yr in taxes due to lower tax rate, foreign tax deduction, etc.

The stock market is booming. What you describe cannot be a problem.