patrick.net

Are china, russia, venezuela, egypt and those bastards isis really that delusional to believe that we won't see through their charade and mock outrage?

dublin hillz says

Are china, russia, venezuela, egypt and those bastards isis really that delusional to believe that we won't see through their charade and mock outrage?

Judging from some characters on this forum, they are far from delusional. The shit works, Dr. Goebbels was no fool. Look around: Dan is happily gobbling up shit from RT and asking for more, Thunder spreads idiotic propaganda about "Nazis, Nazis everywhere, except Mother Russia" and don't even get me started on Gary "Yoni false flag" Anderson....

Well at least the President of Syria didn't warn the US against force against the protesters.

I don't know, Americans are more likely to be incarcerated than Russians or Chinese or any other industrialized nation (or any other nation, period), both absolutely and relative to population.

That's a fact and not my opinion.

If the US isn't a police state, and all the incarceration is merited, then Americans are simply considerably more criminal than everyone else. Therefore Americans' opinions and recommendations should be regarded with suspicion, coming from a society that produces so many criminals deserving of punishment.

With more freedom, comes more temptations and opportunities to break existing law.

ie...freedom to own guns promotes gun availability through stores and shows, resulting in a potential criminal obtaining a weapon far easier than it would be in a nation where guns are outlawed. Once armed, the potential is much more readily realized.

ie...freedom to travel state to state without papers makes it easier for a potential criminal to act out, when given an unrestricted path to flee far from the scene of the crime.

so in a sense, there are more criminal americans, as a percentage, than most everyone else. such is the price we pay for the freedoms we enjoy.

thunderlips11 says

If the US isn't a police state, and all the incarceration is merited, then Americans are simply considerably more criminal than everyone else.

Freedom for the prison-industrial complex to buy politicians and criminalize minorities' existence.

Freedom to be incarcerated for smoking pot.

Freedom from judicial discretion for judges!

Of course, we're also free to invest in Corrections Corp of Amerikkka too!

SoftShell says

so in a sense, there are more criminal americans, as a percentage, than most everyone else. such is the price we pay for the freedoms we enjoy.

George Orwell wrote a book talking about people like you.

“War is peace.
Freedom is slavery.
Ignorance is strength.”
― George Orwell, 1984

thunderlips11 says

I don't know, Americans are more likely to be incarcerated than Russians or Chinese or any other industrialized nation (or any other nation, period), both absolutely and relative to population.

That's a fact and not my opinion.

If the US isn't a police state, and all the incarceration is merited, then Americans are simply considerably more criminal than everyone else. Therefore Americans' opinions and recommendations should be regarded with suspicion, coming from a society that produces so many criminals deserving of punishment.

We have more incarceration rates compared with China a and Russia, not because we are bad people, but because our justice system is so inefficient. It takes a whole generation and millions of dollars to execute those on death rows, while China can execute them within a weak after arrest. So the data will show they have less people incarcerated. At times both China and Russia would just shoot criminals, terrorists and rioters without incurring incurring a backlash of protests.
Bottom line, one reason why we have high incarceration rates is because we provide excessive justice.
I'm all for the Chinese and Russian system to be incorporated into ours.

thunderlips11 says

I don't know, Americans are more likely to be incarcerated than Russians or
Chinese or any other industrialized nation (or any other nation, period), both
absolutely and relative to population.

I would trust the stats coming from england, australia, canada, western europe, but would not trust russian or chinese stats. They have been known to cook the books to make themselves look good (and make their foes look "bad").

Additionally, it's not simply the incarceration percentage that must be looked at but other factors as well. One of them is the treatment of prisoners. There are actually people in united states who don't mind going to jail all that much as it is an avenue for free shelter, food, medical care and a gym. I watched a few "Lockup" shows on msnbc and the inmates are hanging out in the yard, socializing, exercising, rapping, etc. I doubt you would find these conditions in countries which look at incarceration as "corrective colony." You definitely will not find it at "black dolphin" in russia or in china with their mobile van organ harvesting death machines.

Other factors must be attributed to economic issues. We have the resources that other countries do not thus the willingness to incarcerate people and hold them in prison for a long time. Other countries without these resources will either execute prisoners or don't have certain laws on the books. Additionally many states have variations of "3 strikes and you are out" laws which are basically an expression of popular will to remove criminals from society after committing 3 felonies via 25 to life sentencing.

Looking further behind the scenes we find that the largest group of american prisoners happens to be male high school dropouts. They get socialized early on via hanging out with their buddies to view commiting crime favorably (earning street cred, making money to get the cars, chicks, etc) and view law obiding behavior unfavorably (being a sucka). As they don't graduate from high school and consequently find themselves unemployable due to no marketable skills they further experience strain which does not permit them to change these "definitions" that they learned earlier in their lives by socialization.

dublin hillz says

I would trust the stats coming from england, australia, canada, western europe, but would not trust russian or chinese stats. They have been known to cook the books to make themselves look good (and make their foes look "bad").

It's not hard to count jail space, or even come up with a good guesstimation. If they were cooking the books, why such relatively higher numbers than the rest? Wouldn't they cook them down towards even lower towards the industrialized average?

Israel is dealing with an insurgency and only has an incarceration rate of about 325 - half the USA, with the majority being Palestinians.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/howard-steven-friedman/7-oecd-countries-with-the_b_912680.html

dublin hillz says

Additionally many states have variations of "3 strikes and you are out" laws which are basically an expression of popular will to remove criminals from society after committing 3 felonies via 25 to life sentencing.

Yes, lobbying by LEO Groups and Correction Facility Managers and Owners. You ever notice the primary groups funding anti-marijuana legalization, stricter enforcement, X strikes you're out laws are these interest groups?

Small Towns love prison because not only jobs, political influence, but also --- Census. And most federal aid and grant money is distributed according too....?

The US DID have Rest-of-Industrialized-World until the early 80s...

Nixon's proposed War on Drugs spending placed 2/3rd of the funding for Treatment. Today that would be considered Wishy Washy Liberalism.

The Germans and Scandinavians are certainly sticklers for law and order too - they really wouldn't mind putting people away for crimes - so why don't they? They certainly have the money.

dublin hillz says

Looking further behind the scenes we find that the largest group of american prisoners happens to be male high school dropouts.

This is the school-to-prison pipeline.

We just had a scandal where judges took millions of dollars from private prison operators to incarcerate kids:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kids_for_cash_scandal

...getting incarcerated over things as minor as a 14-year old's first-time offence entering unlocked cars to steal change to buy a slurpee, or making fun of the School Principal on Myspace - I shit you not.

The school-to-prison pipeline has many causes:

* Rustbelt, Inner City, and Poor Rural areas have minimal opportunity.
* US Schools are judged solely by post-HS College Attendance; Technical Training has been gutted in most localities, and middle-class voters don't give a shit because they want Johnny to be an MD or Programmer, not a Diesel Mechanic or Machinist. Even though these jobs pay as well or better in many circumstances.
* Aggressive Outsourcing of Industrial Jobs backed by official US Policy thanks to the US Chamber of Commerce.
* Deployment of School Resource Officers who charge kids with crimes, instead of, like in former eras, being forced to write "I won't spray paint Grafitti" 100 times or Detention.
* Zero Tolerance Policies, where bringing in Advil or a plastic butter knife to school is ***!!!DRUGS!!!*** or a !!!***KNIFE***!!! and will get you charged or at least suspended no matter if you've got migraines, PMS, or just want to spread your own Jiff over your sandwich.
* No politician ever lost a race by being tough on crime.

How about private prison guards searching your kids?
http://www.prwatch.org/news/2012/11/11876/corrections-corporation-america-used-drug-sweeps-public-school-students

dublin hillz says

Totalitarian despots criticize United States over Ferguson

It's like when Al Qaeda said that ISIS was going too far.

dublin hillz says

Are china, russia, venezuela, egypt and those bastards isis really that delusional to believe that we won't see through their charade and mock outrage?

They don't have to be right for us to be wrong. It's not like any of those countries have done anything worse than what America has done. Let's go over America's mission accomplish list...

1. Genocide, check.
2. Slavery, check.
3. Segregation, check.
4. Shooting to death unarmed protestors, check.
5. Lethal medical experiment on unwitting civilians, check.
6. Assassinating own citizens without trial or charges, check.
7. Selective prosecution for the purpose of eliminating political rivals and taking down social reformers, check.
8. Mass incarceration of people for victimless crimes that are selectively prosecuted based on politics, class, and race, check.
9. Turning own citizens into political refugees and political prisoners, check.
10. Poisoning drinking water, food supplies, and air, check.

Don't worry, those countries have nothing on us.

Dan8267 says

6. Assassinating own citizens without trial or charges, check.

7. Selective prosecution for the purpose of eliminating political rivals and taking down social reformers, check.

8. Mass incarceration of people for victimless crimes that are selectively prosecuted based on politics, class, and race, check.

9. Turning own citizens into political refugees and political prisoners, check.

10. Poisoning drinking water, food supplies, and air, check.

The first 5 cannot be changed.
6. We should assassinate known terrorist without trial.
7. No idea what that is.
8. OK, lets legalize drugs and prostitution. They are victimless crimes.
9. Did they break the law?
10. Only Prius drivers need complain.

Strategist says

The first 5 cannot be changed.

That doesn't negate the significance of these events.

Strategist says

We should assassinate known terrorist without trial.

The whole point of a fair, open trial is to know that a person is guilty of a crime before punishing or killing him.

Strategist says

7. No idea what that is.

Police often arrest protestors and social advocates for crimes that are very selectively prosecuted or charges that are pure fabrications like disturbing the peace. This happened often in the 1960s. The FBI stalked MLK, JR for years trying to arrest him for anything in order to silence and discredit him and delay the civil rights movement.

MLK was imprisoned in Birmingham, AL for promoting civil rights. That's the most famous example, but there are thousands of others.

Strategist says

8. OK, lets legalize drugs and prostitution. They are victimless crimes.

Absolutely. Why should the state, even in principle, have the power to outlaw these things? If I cannot regulate who you have sex with or what substances you ingest, then how can I give this power to the state? I cannot give that which I do not possess. But if I and no other citizen has this power, then no one can give this power to the state. Nor the multitudes of people who lack this power can give to the state.

Now then, if the state derives its power from the people and the people have no right to regulate the conditions upon which you have sex with another person, then how can the state have this power even in principle?

The only justification for allowing the state to have such power is "might is right" and that justifies the state killing your entire family without reason or accountability.

It's like the Broken Windows Theory. You don't tolerate even small crimes (by the government) because they lead to bigger crimes. If that applies to the average citizen, then it should also apply to big government.

Strategist says

9. Did they break the law?

According to the Constitution, the highest law in our land, a resounding no.

But let's say they did. Didn't the Jews break the law by being Jewish in Germany during the 1930s? So, did the Jews deserve the Holocaust?

The statement that people deserve to be arrested and imprison for breaking the law is contingent upon the assumption that the laws are just. If they are not, breaking the law is no wrong.

The utter hypocrisy of such a statement is illustrated by our country, which would not even exist if our founding fathers hadn't broken the law by revolting against the legal British government. Everything they did in the American revolution was as illegal then as it would be today if someone tried to overthrow our current government. So, should the founding fathers had been arrested? If so, then our country should not even exist.

America could never have existed, even in principle, without massive law breaking and a multitude of felonies.

Strategist says

10. Only Prius drivers need complain.

What the hell does that have to do with coal power plants, farm run-off, fracking, and a multitude of other forms of theft?