patrick.net

Do "conservatives" support this shooting by Cop?

What about liberals? Do they support the cop here?

What about Independents?
He was disorderly and refused to show a proper ID. As an Independent, I don't know if he should have been shot, but I do know this sovereign guy was an idiot. Until the full investigation is complete the cops get the benefit of the doubt.

Peter P 2015 Jan 2, 3:40am

Derrida: il n'y a pas de hors-texte

3 Blurtman 2015 Jan 2, 3:44am

Order must be maintained at all costs.

4 gsr 2015 Jan 2, 3:46am

Derrida: il n'y a pas de hors-texte

We know one thing fully well. Was he committing a violent crime? The answer is resounding _no_.

Dan8267 2015 Jan 2, 3:49am

Do "conservatives" support this shooting by Cop?

Depends. Is he black?

As a person with common sense, to me it seems ridiculous that a guy was shot simply for not wanting to show ID. Yeah, this guy was a crackpot, but if police cannot subdue an unarmed crackpot without shooting him, they shouldn't be police. I could subdue an unarmed crackpot without shooting him.

I also don't buy the bullshit "disorderly conduct" charge. That's a phrase that really means "do everything I say like a slave or you're under arrest" and it should not be legal.

Without video evidence -- oh, no, CIC going to bitch and moan about YouTube -- it's impossible to determine if there was any legitimate reason to arrest this man. Not submitting to an ID check is not a valid reason for arrest. What law demands we carry ID at all times?

But certainly shooting the man was wrong, no matter how crazy he was. And provoking a crazy guy by deliberately pushing his buttons makes it even worse.

Also wrong is that the people at the animal shelter prevented the person from leaving without identifying himself. What right do they have to detain him? He was doing a good deed. And if the animal shelter didn't want to accept the stray then it doesn't have to, but it cannot force the man to accept the stray or to pay for it's expenses, which is the only possible they could have to want his ID. And they had to physically stop this guy from leaving for the 10+ minutes it would take cops to get to the scene. What right did they have to do that?

Christ, this whole story is going to make people turn the other way when seeing stray cats and dogs.

6 gsr 2015 Jan 2, 3:56am

gsr says

Do "conservatives" support this shooting by Cop?

Depends. Is he black?

No.

7 control point 2015 Jan 2, 3:59am

Also wrong is that the people at the animal shelter prevented the person from leaving without identifying himself. What right do they have to detain him?

Exactly. There should be murder charges for the police and kidnapping charges for the animal shelter employees.

Police should be held to a higher standard. Killing an unarmed suspect in the attempt to detain and NOT being charged should be the exception, not the rule.

"He went for my gun" is becoming the "He's coming right for us" from South Park 10+ years ago.

Dan8267 2015 Jan 2, 4:30am

control point says

"He went for my gun" is becoming the "He's coming right for us" from South Park 10+ years ago.

Very true. When a cop deliberately shot a 7-year-old girl who was sleeping, he and his colleagues then tried to frame her grandmother for the crime. If they were successful, the grandmother would have spent the rest of her life in prison. The cops who committed perjury got no punishment. The cop who committed both murder and perjury got no punishment.

Peter P 2015 Jan 2, 5:00am

Also wrong is that the people at the animal shelter prevented the person from leaving without identifying himself. What right do they have to detain him?

It is a matter of framing. They said he could not drop off the animal and leave without producing an identification. He was not being prevented from leaving per se. Context is everything.

Similarly, the restaurant is not detaining you simply because you cannot leave after a meal without paying.

Language is highly fallible.

Y 2015 Jan 2, 5:08am

it always comes down to "they struggled with the cop".
quit struggling and you won't get shot, dumbass.

marcus 2015 Jan 2, 5:22am

What about liberals? Do they support the cop here?

No.

THe guy seemed to have major issues, but if he was getting too physical in the way that he resisted, a competent cop needs to know how to deal with this without shooting the guy. If the cop can't handle it, he needs to call back up, or even let him go and arrest him later when he has sufficient back up. How difficult is that? The problem seems to be a lack of good training.

Whenever an unarmed guy is shot by a cop it's because a mistake is made or possibly there are some very very unusual circumstances. This doesn't seem even close to warranting it.

Dan8267 2015 Jan 2, 5:54am

It is a matter of framing. They said he could not drop off the animal and leave without producing an identification. He was not being prevented from leaving per se. Context is everything.

Similarly, the restaurant is not detaining you simply because you cannot leave after a meal without paying.

The article does not support the statement "They said he could not drop off the animal and leave without producing an identification.". It says

Investigators said 30-year-old Robert Earl Lawrence became disorderly as he attempted to turn over a stray animal about 12:30 p.m. to the Dothan City Animal Shelter when an employee told him he could not leave without showing identification.

Granted, the article like many is poorly written and lacks details. However, I can't jump to the conclusion that the victim was trying to leave the animal at the shelter and then leave himself. He could just as easily been trying to leave with or without the animal. You can't tell from the article.

Nonetheless, it's irrelevant. Your analogy to leaving a restaurant without paying the bill is flawed. Dine and dash is theft of both goods and services and is therefore clearly a crime. Leaving an animal at a shelter is not theft. Even if the shelter does not want to take the stray, it can easily let the stray go. There are no goods or services received by the victim in this case. So he stole nothing.

If anything, the victim was providing a free service to the shelter by doing the work of catching the stray and transporting it to the shelter. This is work that otherwise the shelter would have to pay for.

So, although I agree that a citizen has the legal authority to apprehend and detain a dine-and-dasher, I do not see how the justification for that scenario applies to this case.

Dan8267 2015 Jan 2, 5:57am

Call it Crazy says

Another perfect example, if you put your hands on a police officer, or resist arrest, anything that happens to you after that is on you.

Another perfect example of the police arresting a person without just legal cause. Since when is "being emotional" grounds for an arrest? If it were, you'd have to arrest every teenage girl that ever existed.

Police: Drop the Haagen Dazs and the tissues and put your hands up or you will be shot!

I guess that's what you get for watching An Affair to Remember.

Peter P 2015 Jan 2, 5:59am

http://www.wtvy.com/home/headlines/Dothan-Animal-Shelter-Shooting-287135311.html

The article does not support the statement "They said he could not drop off the animal and leave without producing an identification.".

Here is another article:

Peter P 2015 Jan 2, 6:01am

Your analogy to leaving a restaurant without paying the bill is flawed.

I know. But It was merely used to illustrate the fallacy of language because everything is context-sensitive.

Dan8267 2015 Jan 2, 6:19am

http://crimeblog.dallasnews.com/2014/12/dallas-officer-credited-with-disarming-suspect-who-allegedly-tried-to-shoot-him-liquor-store-clerks.html/

Here is another article:

Quite a few more details.

A physical altercation ensued, to which Lawrence was shot in the abdomen.

Authorities report the shooting victim is a white male who was trying to turn his dog over to the animal shelter.

Police were preparing to arrest the man on a disorderly conduct charge when the argument escalated.

Now leaving one's own dog at a shelter to give it up is different from finding a stray, which is what the original post's article claims. This is a material difference as far as the actions of the shelter. It is reasonable for a shelter to demand payment for taking care of someone's dog and not letting the person leave his dog at the shelter and run away. That's a big difference there.

There's still too few details to justify the arrest. What exactly did the victim do to commit "disorderly conduct". That very charge is suspicious because it's often used as a bullshit excuse to arrest someone you don't like. The arrest might be justified, but that burden should be on the police. They could have simply told the victim to leave with his dog and to not come back to the shelter.

I'm also always suspicious when the police claim someone attacked them or went for their gun. After all, they have frequently been caught in this lie. It's their go-to lie for covering up their own crimes.

However, if the police are not lying, then use of force might be justified depending on exactly what "altercation" occurred. It's still a failure of policing, just not a criminal one, if the victim attacked the police.

Think about it, there are multiple police in body armor versus an unarmed crazy man. If they can't take him down without shooting him or seriously harming him, they shouldn't be cops.

Dan8267 2015 Jan 2, 6:22am

Call it Crazy says

Disorderly conduct is a criminal charge in most jurisdictions in the United States.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Disorderly_conduct

Dan, are you looking to write your own laws now, just like you write your own facts?

Whether or not a law is and whether or not a law should be are two entirely different things. Any law that is vague is a bad law. And any law that is selectively enforced and arbitrarily interpreted is a bad law.

The use of "disorderly conduct" to arrest without cause is a false arrest. Any cop can at any time arrest you for "disorderly conduct" as there is no criteria for it. Merely reflecting sunlight with your body can be "disorderly conduct".

Disorderly conduct is what police arrest you for when they want to arrest you and have no legal justification for it.

18 gsr 2015 Jan 2, 6:23am

marcus says

THe guy seemed to have major issues, but if he was getting too physical in the way that he resisted, a competent cop needs to know how to deal with this without shooting the guy.

Here is a very recent example.
"A Dallas officer says his finger made the difference between life and death for him Tuesday night while he was disarming a gunman."

Peter P 2015 Jan 2, 6:25am

De-escalation is an art few can master.

Dan8267 2015 Jan 2, 6:30am

De-escalation is an art few can master.

Especially when egos get in the way.

21 Robert Sproul 2015 Jan 2, 6:36am

The LEO's on our streets today are steeped in the notion that their orders to "civilians" (legal or not) are to be followed without hesitation or question.
Deescalation is very rare and non compliance by a mundane is intolerable to them.

Comply or die.

Strategist 2015 Jan 2, 7:49am