patrick.net

Strategist says

I believe you. No one sells at a loss.

Tell me what you think on this example:

10 years ago I offered $28,000 for a Sienna Minivan. They did not even counter, and just blew me away.

3 days later, the salesperson calls me back, and tells me the exact same car is being advertised the next day for $25,000. He said if I came in first thing in the morning, he would get the car for me at the advertised price without haggling. I had offered all cash.

I got the car as promised by the salesman. The finance guy seemed pissed and refused to shake my hand. He even asked me if my check was gonna clear?

I should have complained to Toyota, but did not. What is your opinion? Could I have done better?

You did alright. Just ok. You didn't get ripped off but you didn't get the deal of a lifetime either and you actually left some money on the table to be honest.

In a normal deal, they actually discounted by not much. The finance asshole was pissed because he made no commission or any money from you doing business at his dealership. He asked if your check would clear in the hopes that he would make a commission on doing you a finance deal if the check bounced.

Generally the best way to get the killer deal on a new car is find out when a dealer is selling a particular car for less than what they bought from the manufacturer and than negotiate. Even telling them you know they get backend payments from the manufacturer and you will not buy unless they cut down the price further.

The most important next step is to go ahead and WALK AWAY...

This is actually why they called you back with the $3,000 deduction on the price from your original offer. You made the right action...

But than you made a mistake. What you should have done was countered with $20,000-$23,000 the most. I am willing to bet my left testicle, you could have gotten the vehicle for $22,000 the most if you started with $20,000 and weren't afraid on the phone to hang up.

This game is a lot like poker. Both parties must bluff...

Only that the dealers always win on every deal regardless...Even if you get a steal, they still make a profit from backend payments from the manufacturer.

So around $2,000-$3,000, you left on the table.

In all honesty, cars are always a horrible deal - it just depends on the extent.

Let me explain.

With the new car - you are taking all the depreciation. The value will be gone very very rapidly. Easiest way to lose shit loads of money,

With the leased car - you are avoiding the depreciation but are limited to mileage and are penalized for any excess wear or any kind of damage. After 3 years, you blew around $5-$10 grand but end up owning nothing.

With the used car - For $10 grand, you could buy a honda or toyota used private party that will last for another 300,000 miles or 150,000 miles if a $5 grand used car, if you use the car in a sensible manner. The only problem with used cars is you just have to do a lot more research and know how to determine if the car is mechanically sound, its servicing history, accidents, etc. Other than that, used is much much better than both new and leased in my humble opinion.

Also what is a new car?

There is no such fucking thing! The car salesman, mechanics, delivery guys, customer test drivers - all abuse the cars on the lot. They rev it hard, break hard and drive the piss out of the car. No new cars on the lot have 0 mileage meter. They have around 10-300 mileage - small mileage - sure but defiantly abusive mileage on a brand new engine.

The only way to have a truly new car is to have the dealer order it direct from the manufacturer and have their truck deliver you the car at your home.

Robber Baron Elite Scum says

In all honesty, cars are always a horrible deal - it just depends on the extent.

Let me explain.

With the new car - you are taking all the depreciation. The value will be gone very very rapidly. Easiest way to lose shit loads of money,

That very same Toyota Sienna Minivan will be for sale after a couple of months. I already have people who want it.
Perfect condition. Clean cut. Very low mileage. Always maintained. I would use synthetic oil, even though it was not necessary.
I don't expect to get more than $8,000. :(

justme says

I mean, in now way isthe "invoice" price what the dealer ends up actually having piad for the car they sell you, right?

LOL... Of course not. Don't be so naive or gullible.

Strategist says

That very same Toyota Sienna Minivan will be for sale after a couple of months. I already have people who want it.

Perfect condition. Clean cut. Very low mileage. Always maintained. I would use synthetic oil, even though it was not necessary.

I don't expect to get more than $8,000. :(

I would say to keep it. Not worth selling and defiantly not worth trading-in.

After 10 years for low mileage, I'm guessing around 75K miles? It can go another 250K miles as long as it is used sensibly, not abused and oil changes done regularly.

Next-time buy used. I don't suggest leases unless you own a business and can get a tax write-off from it. Even with that said, leases are a horrible deal compared to buying a used car with very low miles and well-kept for $10 grand that can go for another 250K miles easily. Around 15 years of service.

Tell me what fucking lease gives you 15 years of service for $10 grand? Even if they did, once you return the car - they WILL nickel and dime the shit out of you for little scratches and cosmetic damages. You own nothing and may even have to pay at the end from penalties I mentioned.

With a used car that is dead - you can still salvage it and get something even if it's $300 bucks at the end of it's life.

Used cars require hardly any repairs and are reliable as long you bought the right car and knew what to look for. New cars are actually more unreliable and it's where you get the most lemons from actually.

("Trade-ins" by the way are hardly ever compensated by dealers fairly, they basically steal your car by adding the money you think they gave you on what you are buying.)

Think of it this way...

If you bought the car for $25,000.

And the car now has 100,000 miles left.

Why would you accept $8,000? (assuming you can even get that).

If you accept $8,000 - you lost $17,000 dollars.

Instead of spending $17,000 just to drive a car to 100,000 miles...

You could have bought a used-car from the get go at 100,000 miles for $5,000 and drive to 200,000 miles with the car mileage at 300,000.
Repair costs - trust me you don't need worry about as long as you bought a mechanically sound used car and you use it sensibly.

You could have saved $20,000 dollars by spending only $5,000 instead of spending $25,000 and only ending up with $8,000 saved (if that).

Why not spend $5,000 instead of $17,000 all to achieve the same result?

A friend worked for a dealership in Vegas - they asked for your license before they let you take a test drive. Then they refused to give your license back, he used to joke about how before everyone had a cell phone customers would walk to a 7-11 nearby to call the cops to get their license back. He recommended having a photocopy of your license to give them if they ask.

Also- once they have your car to "evaluate" as a trade-in, you might not get it back for hours until you either buy a car, or are so pissed they know you never will. The game is to keep you as long as possible until they wear you down.

Robber Baron Elite Scum Car Sales Fucker? Too long of a title?

I'm willing to overpay for my unique car so I can park it in the garage of the unique overpriced house I bought.

elliemae says

The game is to keep you as long as possible until they wear you down.

In this day and age there is no reason to even set a foot inside a dealership. I once spent 2 weeks negotiating a price on a lightly used truck via e-mail. ;)

I'm making one offer,no haggling, to a dealership or private owner.
Take it or leave it. If I look around I might find another vehicle for sale.
ROFLMAO! DUMBFUCKS!

Used car sales is no match for the astronomical wickedness of a realtor.

FortWayne says

Used car sales is no match for the astronomical wickedness of a realtor.

A used car salesman is just a Realtor with low self esteem.

Hey Robber Scum,
Please let us know when you go through the class on turning back the mileage on cars.
Also, are there any good cars that were NOT owned by the little old lady driving to church on Sundays?
When you are done, write a book. Here is a suggestion for the title.
"How to screw a used car salesman without him knowing it."

DieBankOfAmericaPhukkingDie says

I bought a Subaru for cash

When cannibal anarchy comes, your Subaru will need a new head gasket, like all Subaru's do. Either ditch it for a better built car or learn how to fix that yourself.

FortWayne says

Used car sales is no match for the astronomical wickedness of a realtor.

Would be interesting to read a post about a realtor's new car buying experience and a car salesperson's home buying experience.

Robber Baron Elite Scum says

Think of it this way...

If you bought the car for $25,000.

And the car now has 100,000 miles left.

Why would you accept $8,000? (assuming you can even get that).

If you accept $8,000 - you lost $17,000 dollars.

Instead of spending $17,000 just to drive a car to 100,000 miles...

You could have bought a used-car from the get go at 100,000 miles for $5,000 and drive to 200,000 miles with the car mileage at 300,000.

Repair costs - trust me you don't need worry about as long as you bought a mechanically sound used car and you use it sensibly.

You could have saved $20,000 dollars by spending only $5,000 instead of spending $25,000 and only ending up with $8,000 saved (if that).

Why not spend $5,000 instead of $17,000 all to achieve the same result?

Only real issue I have with this is that given other people's poor taste in cars, it could easily take me 6 months to a year to find an acceptable used car. Most people don't have that kind of time to wait until something they like comes available. It's either that or if you need another car ASAP, just get anything and use that until you can get what you want.

zzyzzx says

When cannibal anarchy comes, your Subaru will need a new head gasket, like all Subaru's do. Either ditch it for a better built car or learn how to fix that yourself.

When cannibal anarchy comes, everyone will need a head gasket. Oh, you meant CYLINDER head gasket?

justme says

In fact, even when the dealer sells a car at a loss - the manufacturer covers their loss but also pays them an additional amount. Sometimes the amount is up to $4,000 dollars.

True... I did this gig when I was a kid. They don't have you running four squares do they haha? They make their cash on the used cars. New cars they have to make sure not too many people don't complain to the manufacturer resulting in getting their franchise pulled - which they use to make them *appear* more trustworthy than the just-a-used car dealership, when in fact they are perhaps worse than the small guy. If they get their franchise pulled they quickly try to franchise some other brand.

This site has been around for a while: https://www.carbuyingtips.com/

Read the new car buying guide, some of it's pretty funny. Edmunds.com has forums where people brag about the prices they pay. I beat the best price in the US on my last car by $500 vs. the forum. $3,500 under invoice and $7000 below MSRP. They certainly got kick backs. It was in August right before a new body style came out (which was uglier) and I got top-of-the-line everything.

Deal with the fleet manager. Do a fax attack. Get the fighting chance package. Take your time from home and then roll in to pick up your vehicle at a steal - beats the online prices too. Unless it's a super hot commodity; then all bets are off.

2 days of training. Just came back after a 12 hour shift today in training and cold calling. Didn't have time until now to post updates.

We have a special one day sale tmrw on Saturday. Did a lot of fucking cold calling for that shit. Found quite a few suckers who want to go.

Anyway...

Here is what I learned more in my training.

1) Do not ever bring numbers to a prospect and than tell them that these are your numbers nor should you ever imply you came up with the numbers. You should tell them your sales manager came up with these numbers. When actually - you went into the back office and just wrote them yourself. The trainer told the training recruits that they should take a black permanent marker and right down the number so it looks like you didn't write. He said to use a different pen so it truly looks like the Sales Manager used it.

2) The recruit trainer said that you MUST make sure the prospect thinks that you are fighting the manager during negotiation, When you actually are not and in fact in the majority of negotiations the sales manager doesn't even have any hand in it. The salesman is just lying that his sales manager came up with these numbers and he needs to get approval from his manager for any reduction or counter offer.

During my cold calls, a seasoned salesman told me to handle call with fake scarcity and to fake that I am talking to manager for extension on the sale.

Everything I tell you about my dealership may not be EXACTLY what they teach in every dealership but it is pretty much in the ball mark.

Also during negotiation, they tell you to not put the price figure of the car on the attention of the prospect. Only the trade-in value and the down payment and monthly payment. Almost forget that part.

Anyway.... I'll update what happens on Saturday Sale.

Updates...

Think selling cars is easy? Think again.

Car salesman have huge pressure on their sales managers. You are supposed to steer the conversation away from price and towards "value"....

But price has everything to do with value. If something is sold for 10 dollar in all other stores but you are able to purchase at 8 dollars in Amazon... Guess who gets the business?

Amazon! And that is largely the reason why Walmart, Target and Amazon seem to do the bulk of retail business today.

"We don't sell on price..." Common advice given by training from dealership.

What a dealership does is pressure people into buying. As a salesman, you have to control the process as they put it. Don't let the customer dictate or tell you what to do. Tell the customer what to do.

Don't ask for their information - trick them into giving it to you - have them give it to you indirectly. You have to be devious.

If a customer is not willing to give you their information, THEY ARE NOT A FUCKING SERIOUS BUYER! They are tire kickers (yes, we do get them) or they not sure or the person in power to make the decision or they are merely just half-way thinking about or unsure yet - they want time....

You have to be hard selling. Urgency selling. NOW!

When Apple comes out with their own cars, I highly doubt they will ever sell the way cars are sold by dealerships today and in the past.

But guess what? I bet they will sell a shit load of them without any hard selling!

Check out Tesla. They sell directly themselves to the customers without any third-parties. Consumers get a much better price and less game-playing nonsense.

All car manufacturers will soon find it is much more efficient and profitable to sell directly rather than through third-party scumbags.

Of course they are laws put in place halting direct selling to consumers in the automobile business and I'm sure the big major car dealerships are hiring lobbyists to try to keep it that way....

But Tesla is still selling cars directly and trying to sell directly where they are prohibited. The FTC has sided with Tesla as well in being allowed to sell direct.

In fact, cars should be sold online. They should just have you verify your identity for any financing online and that's it. No need to walk into any fucking dealership operated by some third-party.

You can test drive the cars by going directly to the manufacturer's stores. Once car buying is completely online, the car dealership business will be toast...

Third-party operated dealerships will be a thing of the past along with the sleazy high-pressure salesman.

Robber Baron Elite Scum says

Updates...

Thanks Robber Scum. Your espionage services are well appreciated here. There must be some way to screw the dealers and give them a taste of their own medicine. Please discover and tell the world.
I endorse you for the Patnet Peace Prize.

You know guys, it might be a great idea to have insiders and customers in various businesses come out and state how to screw unpopular businesses.
Car Dealers
Real Estate Brokers.
Mortgage Loans.
Credit Cards.
Phone companies.
Cable companies.
Internet Service Providers.
Insurance Companies.
Building Contractors.

Strategist says

You know guys, it might be a great idea to have insiders and customers in various businesses come out and state how to screw unpopular businesses.

Car Dealers

...

I'd be delighted if that became patrick.net's contribution to the world. How can I recruit those insiders and promote their posts?

I'd be delighted if that became patrick.net's contribution to the world. How can I recruit those insiders and promote their posts?

Time to brainstorm. There is always a solution, one only has to find it.

We need some more bitches like the one who infiltrated banking inspectors a while back.

http://www.propublica.org/article/ny-fed-fired-examiner-who-took-on-goldman

Now why the fuck can't you use that kind of creativity against the banking industry?

zzyzzx says

Would be interesting to read a post about a realtor's new car buying experience and a car salesperson's home buying experience.

That does bring up an interesting scenario!

How different is selling used vs new cars?

This weenie is trying to sell me a new car.

Salesturd: "How much per month can you afford to spend on a new car?"
Me: "Nothing"
ST: "What?"
Me: "I pay cash in full"

They are almost as bad as Realtor's.

http://www.toyotaofboerne.com/

https://www.youtube.com/embed/nQlmLjBWMIw

:-((((

I'm surprised you didn't mention the back end of the finance deal. Dealerships send your financials to the bank who then offers a rate. Sometimes the finance guy bumps that rate a point or two and presents the altered deal to the customer. If said customer signs, then the finance guy/dealer splits the extra interest with the bank. It's called "holding points" and it's definitely something to watch out for. It can be worth $500-1500 to the dealer and $4000 to you over the life of the loan.

A favorite trick of San Antonio area dealerships is to load up the car with dealer add-ons. Window tint, protective film, aero kits ($$$). All those add to the dealer's bottom line.

Anybody have experience with Carlypso? They offer a car price that falls between attending an auction AF style and having to haggle with a used car salesmen. This was the traditional realm of brokers, but they seem to have added an overlay with more transparency.

zzyzzx says

How different is selling used vs new cars?

At a "new" car dealership you maybe get a better deal on a new car. Relatively speaking - the dealership itself makes more on the used cars. They'll also sell the experience better with the new car. Demonstrating all of the features right before you drive away like folding down back seats etc. This is because the MFG may call you soon after your purchase and ask how the experience was. When dealerships get too many (I heard it didn't take much) bad reviews the MFG pulls their franchise and they are then just a used car dealership or trying to switch to an alternate name.

Update: I worked for around 3 months until I finally was fired today for not pressuring customers into buying cars that were unaffordable for them. I sold a total of 7 cars.

Here is what I learned working at a dealership...

The workplace culture is very twisted. Sales managers are power-hungry assholes and psychopaths. The finance managers are also power-hungry and snakes.

A lot of the salesmen are also snakes although a few of them are genuinely taking the best interests of the customers in mind. The Finance managers and sales managers oftentimes steal the newbie salesman's commission and give them the crumbs.

One salesman was fired because he exposed that the finance manager was undercutting the commission of other salesmen. Managers try to take advantage of newbie salesmen.

2 of my coworkers were convicted felons. One for dealing cocaine and they other for a bank robbery. Apparently, the dealership actually prefers convicted felons as a veteran salesmen there told me since they are more likely to be willing to lie and be dishonest with customers.

The honest good salesmen get abused by both the customers and management. Customers think all the salesmen are scum.

While I agree that the majority are scumbags, a small minority of good honest salesmen are genuinely just trying to make a living but do not want to screw people over at the same time.

Some customers are real assholes. I had this one Indian guy who didn't get his unrealistic price, so he left. Calls me a day later but I was with other customers. I call him back, he gives his offer, I present it to my sales manager, it doesn't get approved and I tell him accordingly.

He than says "Why the hell are you calling me than? Don't call me unless you can get my price!" in a rude tone.

I tell him that I called him to return his phone call as a courtesy after which I just hanged up on the asshole once he get got on a boring rant about how he will buy elsewhere.

A car salesmen job is very stressful. Everyone of the salesmen there are stressed and workaholics. You must work 12 hours a day 6 days a week including weekends if you want to make any money. You will not have a enjoyable life with this kind of career. None of my coworkers had any work-life balance.

The salesman at my dealership were on commission only. So they have a lot of pressure to sell is why they do only commission as the dealership only cares about the bottom line - neither the salesmen nor the customer is important.

We are not allowed to tell a customer that buying the car we are selling to them will financially wreck them and it is not in their best interest to buy it. One salesmen was actually fired a week ago for doing just that.

I will reveal the dealership I worked for. It is called the "New York Auto Giant Group" & also has a name of "Atlantic dealership"

To provide a verifiable example of how fucked up the management there is and how fucked up the company culture is....

Below is a news article about a woman who donated a kidney of hers to her boss at the dealership and was shortly fired because she had to take a few days off after getting her kidney removed to be donated to her boss.

http://www.nydailynews.com/new-york/woman-fired-kidney-donation-sues-ex-employer-article-1.1384677

Cars at the dealership are also abused a lot. The lot attendants and the salesmen drive the piss out of the cars - redlining it regularly that is later sold to their suckers.

One of my sales managers even said "Well I don't think it's right that we give a very big price difference to certian customers who we think are clueless idiots but it is what it is..."

That should tell you enough.

My suggestion for getting a good deal? Be willing to buy a used car and get it from a private seller. Fuck the dealerships, unless you work there, they will not give you a good deal at all.

So what's the bad part?

Robber Baron Elite Scum says

I worked for around 3 months until I finally was fired today for not pressuring customers into buying cars that were unaffordable for them.
***
2 of my coworkers were convicted felons.

Your next job should be selling subsidized medical insurance. It's mandatory so the customer can't say no, and it's always "affordable" because the legislation says so. Be sure to mention your experience working alongside convicted felons, because that will further prepare you for a new career as an Obamneycare Navigator.

curious2 says

Your next job should be selling subsidized medical insurance. It's mandatory so the customer can't say no, and it's always "affordable" because the legislation says so. Be sure to mention your experience working alongside convicted felons, because that will further prepare you for a new career as an Obamneycare Navigator

LOL....

+1

SoftShell says

So what's the bad part?

The long hours, the sleazy tactics you must do and the asshole managers who undercut your commission and lie to you about how much commission you really should be getting. Along with many plentiful asshole "customers".