patrick.net

Interview with Indonesian military chief, he defends practice:

"So what's the problem? It's a good thing, so why criticize it?" Gen. Moeldoko was quoted by The Jakarta Globe as telling reporters on Friday.

The Globe says Moeldoko "conceded, though, that there was no direct link between a woman being a virgin and her abilities as a member of the armed forces, but insisted that virginity was a gauge of a woman's morality — one of the three key traits he said a woman must have to serve in the [Indonesia Armed Forces], along with high academic aptitude and physical strength."

The virginity test "is a measure of morality. There's no other way" to determine a person's morality, Moeldoko said.

The General confirmed and defended that the Virginity Tests and was directly responding to the report by Human Rights Watch on the subject.

Also:
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/morning-mix/wp/2015/05/15/indonesia-slammed-for-using-virginity-tests-on-female-recruits/
http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/nov/18/female-indonesian-police-recruits-forced-virginity-test
http://time.com/3883558/indonesia-virginity-tests/
http://www.npr.org/sections/thetwo-way/2015/05/17/407526194/indonesian-military-chief-defends-virginity-tests-for-female-recruits

So who administers the virginity test? Do dirty old imams/wannabe jihadis administer the test to the female army recruits/potential female jihadis?

DieBankOfAmericaPhukkingDie says

Sit on my face, Indonesia!

I thought the virginity test was done by 2 fingers, not by tounge?

This thread is useless without pictures

Forget virginity tests, how about female genital mutilation? Still practiced by a majority in several African countries including Somalia, it involves the cutting out of the clitoris and vaginal lips to leave nothing but a scarred hole. This is typically done with a rusty knife or shard of glass without anesthetic of any sort. Infections are common and are often life threatening. Some women become sterile as a result of the infections. All survivors lose most of the sexual feeling in their vaginas.

Queue feminist liberal nutjob: "but it's their CULTURE! You can't disrespect another person's culture!"
I'd like to see some of these hysterical women trade places with the 14-year-old African girls...

Lose lips sinks ships.

Ironman says

Like this?

A conjecture, by definition, is not a lie. Nor have you shown that the conjecture was wrong. Nor have you shown that the individuals who said the stupid things in the original article are liberals. Nor are you even capable of providing a correct definition of liberal.

justme says

I simply expressed my doubt that the story is correct.

It is always OK to doubt a story and to ask for independent verification. There's not much on the story, but multiple sources do confirm that virginity tests are used in Indonesia for both the military and the national police and no sources deny this. So it is reasonable to accept that this is true.

If there is any credible evidence that shows otherwise, I'd gladly criticize the article as incorrect.

justme says

Yup. I was not attempting some personal attack on Dan. That was Ironman/Call It Crazy/CIC.

Whenever CIC sees anyone questioning something I've posted, even when I'm just reporting not advocating, CIC gets a boner and starts jerking off about the idea of proving me wrong on anything, no matter how petty. People like CIC get no validation in real life, so they must rely on tearing down strangers on the Internet and getting other fools to agree with their lies. It's all about who is write, not what is write to such losers.

thunderlips11 says

The General confirmed and defended that the Virginity Tests and was directly responding to the report by Human Rights Watch on the subject.

Thanks for the research. And unlike trolls like CIC, I'd appreciate the research regardless of what the outcome of it turns out to be.

The NPR reference alone provides adequate proof.

Of course, CIC isn't man enough to admit that his false accusations were wrong. Everyone should remember that every time she writes a post.

Tenpoundbass says

Lose lips sinks ships.

In all seriousness, there are probably some female recruits that resort to only anal in order to pass these tests. Good Catholic girls did the same decades ago.

It doesn't count if it's anal. - CIC at the petting zoo.

Quigley says

Queue feminist liberal nutjob: "but it's their CULTURE! You can't disrespect another person's culture!"

Such pseudo-feminists aren't liberal. I'm against all genital mutilation being forced on children including male circumcision. That should not be the choice of the parents either.

Oh, and we liberals don't believe that culture or religion are beyond criticism. I'll criticize any culture and any religion. That's free speech. And cultures that "honor kill" women are morally inferior to cultures that don't. And a culture that is homophobic is morally inferior to one that is not. Liberal culture is better than conservative culture.

Ironman says

Dan8267 says

A conjecture, by definition, is not a lie

That's not actually a counter-argument. If you had any intelligence, you'd realize that.

By the way, now that it has been proven by many sources that virginity tests are given in Indonesia, are you man enough to apologize for being wrong? 'Nuff said.

Oh, you want further humiliation? OK, happy to oblige.

The statement there may be intelligent extraterrestrial life in our galaxy is not a lie even if it turns out that humans are the only intelligent life in the galaxy.

Please, double down on stupidity. But first,
Dan8267 says

By the way, now that it has been proven by many sources that virginity tests are given in Indonesia, are you man enough to apologize for being wrong? 'Nuff said.

I see you're chicken-shitting out of addressing this. How predictable and sad.

Quigley says

Forget virginity tests, how about female genital mutilation? Still practiced by a majority in several African countries including Somalia, it involves the cutting out of the clitoris and vaginal lips to leave nothing but a scarred hole. This is typically done with a rusty knife or shard of glass without anesthetic of any sort. Infections are common and are often life threatening. Some women become sterile as a result of the infections. All survivors lose most of the sexual feeling in their vaginas.

I'm against any form of genital mutilation, male or female. But I have to ask, with reference to the above: Are those the same "rusty knives" and "shards of glass" that are used to mutilate men, or are they saving the extra rusty "rusty knives" and extra dull "shards of glass" to mutilate their women? (sarcasm alert, you actually believe these tales?) What I am trying to get you to understand is that all the horrific tales of Female GM in the western media are often wildly exaggerated for propaganda purposes, whereas as Male GM, which is very real (in the West AND in Africa), gets hardly any negative mention at all. And when something is wildly exaggerated, you should ask yourself "why?". Most of the time the reason is that factual truth is not bad enough to prove the point of "patriarchical oppression" or some such drivel.

I will include a link below to an article from The Atlantic. The first thing you should note is that circumcision is promoted and performed by the women, or the matriarchy.

http://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2015/04/female-genital-mutilation-cutting-anthropologist/389640/

I repeat: No boy, girl, man or woman should be circumcised without informed consent.

One more time: No boy, girl, man or woman should be circumcised without informed consent.

Ironman says

lets recap what I posted

So you're too much of a pussy and weakling to admit that you were just plain wrong.

Us real men, have no problem admitting we were wrong and then changing our stances when evidence shows us what is right. I'd say that someday you'll grow up, but quite frankly, since you haven't yet, you're beyond hope.

Ironman says

I

Ironman says

want

Ironman says

a Plaid Zebra

Ironman says

to

Ironman says

shit

Ironman says

on

Ironman says

me

Ironman says

What does that tell you?

justme says

You got a boner and started wacking off

Ironman says

Oh, the horror!!!

CIC's Strategy: When you're losing an argument, just keep reposting the same dumb pictures that failed to prove a point the last hundred times you posted them. Repetition is the key to success, both in masturbation and arguments.

Ironman says

Dan's strategy: when he's lost an argument, resort to making up people's quotes

No, that's actually you. You deliberately misquote people all the time. The only two or three times I've taken your quotes out of context and strung them together to say something completely different like above has been to illustrate the utter stupidity of you having just done the same thing with far less creativity. So that once again demonstrates your total hypocrisy.

Ironman says

then start with sexual insults and references to sex with animals.

You seemed to have absolutely no problem making animal sex jokes yourself. Granted, they weren't as funny or creative as the ones I hurled at you, but clearly you're a hypocrite for complaining about this after having tried to make such jokes yourself.

Oh, and I have never lost an argument to you. You declare victory while everybody else is laughing their asses off how stupid you are. That's not winning. That's being delusional.

Patrick: can Ironman/CIC be banned from posting images? There is no information in them. It just clutters the threads.

Dan: Don't feed the troll. With VERY few exceptions, nobody believes what Ironman says about you. Just ignore him. Responding just generates clutter and detracts from the thread.

justme says

Patrick: can Ironman/CIC be banned from posting images? There is no information in them. It just clutters the threads.

why not just ignore him? that also makes you invisible to him when he's logged in.

there is still some improvement to be made to the ignore function i'm sure, but don't quite know what it is.

justme says

With VERY few exceptions, nobody believes what Ironman says about you.

We all know that. The problem is that CIC has been around for years and he's never going away until he's permabanned. The only use he could possibly serve is demonstrating that conservatives are stupid an morally bankrupt. There is a purpose in ridiculing the village idiot: to make sure no one else takes up the mantle.

If only ignoring this fool would make him go away, but he just enjoys his masturbatory victory dances too much. It's the only please he gets in his sad, little life.

However, I do see your point. CIC does derail otherwise interesting and productive conversations.

justme says

Patrick: can Ironman/CIC be banned from posting images? There is no information in them. It just clutters the threads.

why not just ignore him? that also makes you invisible to him when he's logged in.

I'll consider it. The one reason for not ignoring him is that he posts lots of threads that need to be counteracted. If I ignore, how can I un-ignore if needed?

why not just ignore him?

Ignoring a problem does not make it go away. Ignoring the spread of misinformation does not stop it but rather allows the misinformation to grow unchallenged. This is bad for society. Lies and misinformation should be stopped before it goes viral. How many children have died because Jenny McCarthy convinced people that vaccines cause autism?

CIC is a cancer on the Internet's ass.

justme says

If I ignore, how can I un-ignore if needed?

at the bottom of your profile

there is still some improvement to be made to the ignore function i'm sure, but don't quite know what it is.

Patrick, here is an idea, but as always it involves work: "Ignore images" (block images) on a per-user basis? I would select to block images from at least 3 people.

Dan said better what I wanted to say: Ignoring the spread of misinformation does not stop it but rather allows the misinformation to grow unchallenged.

ignoring images would not be too hard.

but i'm still reluctant to ban any user who does not actually physically threaten anyone, or post child porn, etc. simply being an asshole is not enough.

it's a hard problem.

This really comes down to a fundamental problem in Internet forums. Because of anonymity, people are comfortable saying batshit crazy things that they would not say in real life because if they did, everyone would call them an idiot and their reputation, the real one associated with their unchangeable real-world identity, would be ruined. So you don't say in public that you think Osama bin Laden is still alive.

However, without anonymity one cannot honestly discuss any political issue because anything you say on the Internet without anonymity can be held against you, rightfully or wrongly, by any prospective employer or customer.

There may be one solution to this problem. A solution that provides both anonymity and the inability to generate more than one identity. However, even that solution requires trusting the service provider not to cheat even if the algorithms are formally verified as correct.

In any case, anonymity is a double-edge sword. People with sad lives such as CIC will find a way to disrupt conversations if any chance is given to them. Short of implementing a trusted anonymous yet unique user generator, I suppose PatNet could require a SMS capable telephone number for ensuring uniqueness and permabanning trolls. That's not a perfect solution, but it is a reasonable one that would eliminate most trolls. It does require the user base to trust Patrick though.

but i'm still reluctant to ban any user who does not actually physically threaten anyone, or post child porn, etc. simply being an asshole is not enough.

Wait. So if I can get CIC to physically threaten me... On it!

Justme, theres a couple retards here that just don't get it. Dan is one of said retards that CiC trolls the fuck out of

errc says

Dan is one of said retards that CiC trolls the fuck out of

CIC doesn't annoy me. Every time he opens his mouth, it's an opportunity to show just how despicable conservatives are. Sometimes I think he's so stupid that he must be someone's straw man conservative design just to make conservatives sound like idiots. But then I hear a quote from Fox News and I realize, no, he's not a straw man. He's really that dumb. So I'm happy to point out conservative moronic beliefs for what they are.

ignoring images would not be too hard.

Ok, I tried the "ignore" function on Ironman. I find it too drastic. I cannot see his threads nor comments. Perhaps "ignore" could be slightly different, as follows:

If you ignore user X, then each post (or thread) by X will appear as a one-liner which indicates that there is a comment (or thread) by X, but without showing the content (maybe just the title in the case of a thread). There could an ignore on/off right there on each such comment line (ADDENDUM: perhaps hide/unhide is a better name).

That way, one can see, read and be informed by a thread, and selectively view the content posted by low-information posters. By a click of a button one can see whether user X adds anything useful to the thread or not. The ignore-X variable could be global, but the option to un-ignore could be right there inside the thread.

I know, more work, but like Dan I feel that just wholesale ignoring misinformation is not an option.

Also, there is the question of whether "ignore(hide/unhide)" and "block from posting on my threads" should be independent of each other.

Dan8267 says

I suppose PatNet could require a SMS capable telephone number for ensuring uniqueness and permabanning trolls. That's not a perfect solution, but it is a reasonable one that would eliminate most trolls. It does require the user base to trust Patrick though.

Oh, man. Any site that requires my phone number is OUT. I trust Patrick with my phone number, but in general it is a lousy idea.

I didn't say he annoys you. I said he trolls you

Meaning he has no intention of discussion or discourse, rather the opposite. His purpose is to derail any meaningful discussion by dragging people into stupid bickering. And in that sense, he fucking OWNS you. There was a time when i would read your posts with hopes of learning something or potentially engaging in interesting discussion. After seeing the disinteresting battle you choose to fight with the resident troll, I usually just scroll right past your posts so as not to waste my time

CiC 2
Us 0

You allow him to troll me by proxy. Cant think of a better way to devalue yourself, but hey, you're free to make that choice

i agree a phone number is too much. it opens all kinds of unpleasant possibilities for finding the user's real name and even location.

ok, i could have ignore basically "minimize" a user instead of just making them disappear.

my problem to solve is making sure the politically incorrect voice is not suppressed even when it's in the minority, or "disliked".

i'd hate for the site to be just like a feminist meeting in which men are simply shouted down no matter how polite and rational they are in expressing their opinions.

CiC isn't being politically incorrect. He is being intentionally disruptive. The majority of his posts are character assassinations on other posters

I like your site, Patrick. But you look like a real dumb ass allowing the troll to yell fire in the crowded theatre, in the name of free speech. Quit being such a pussy and ban his ass. You did it to shrek for much less

Free speech is a wonderful thing. But personal attacks are not protected speech

i'd hate for the site to be just like a feminist meeting in which men are simply shouted down no matter how polite and rational they are in expressing their opinions.

Lol - it's in more danger of becoming a mirror image of a feminist meeting, but for disaffected men.

For those who haven't tried it, use the ignore function. You can just ignore someone temporarily, or just leave them on ignore. If you ever want to see if you are missing threads, open a different browser or an incognito window in chrome, and you will see all threads.

Dan, I agree with errc to some extent. By engaging CIC, you lessen the value of your posts. People don't need your commentary to figure out that CIC is an idiot. If you want to persuade others away from conservative ideas, you should engage with more intelligent adversaries.

For the life of me, I don't know why more people don't use ignore. @Patrick, my biggest gripe is that I am ignoring CIC, but he can still post in my threads. I'm guessing that he reads the thread while logged out, and uses the email method of posting a comment. Then, I get an email showing his post, b/c I'm watching the thread. Maybe when that logged out comment form posts, the site could check the ignore list before sending out the email?

Ironman says

Dan posting image after image and post after post of references of sex with animals i

Dan has a lot to do, a productive, fulfilling life.

Ironman says

Can you say "Double Standard"?

There is no double standard. When you post rubbish and clutter, which is most of the time, I don't want to see the clutter, but I might in some cases post a factual correction to something you are claiming.

Once in a rare while you actually post something sensible, in which case I don't mind. Heck, I even have occasionally given you a "like" when you had something intelligent to say. I encourage good behavior.

It is not a double standard. It is a reality-based standard. Evidence-based.

ok, i could have ignore basically "minimize" a user instead of just making them disappear.

Right on. Minimize is a good name for hide/unhide. Even hide the icon to save space inside threads. One line is enough for a minimized user.

Ironman says

Answer a question, are Dan's continuous images and Youtube videos he posts of references to animal sex, rubbish or clutter or not?

You both post clutter. But you post the most clutter.

errc says

CiC isn't being politically incorrect. He is being intentionally disruptive.

That's the key point. All arguments no matter how controversial and all thoughts no matter how repulsive are welcome. A troll differs in that the troll seeks to prevent converse and to disrupt conversations and the freedom of speech we are trying to protect. A troll is the equivalent of someone shouting at everybody and banging things on the table to make sure no one else can speak. And that is what CIC is.

Unfortunately, there is no way, even in principle, of guaranteeing uniqueness without giving up, at least temporarily, some identifying information. That identifying information can be converted into non-identifying unique information and the original identifying data forgotten (never written to persistent storage), but all such solutions require a certain level of trust and integrity of the account manager, either a third-party service or the website administrator.

Dan8267 says

Real Misogyny

The real misogyny is that a man impregnated a woman with CIC. That should be considered a crime against humanity.