patrick.net

errc says

The correct question is "Why don't we allow a Free Market Capitalist solution to solve a problem, for once. Like allowing Student Loan Debt to be subject to retirement in bankruptcy courts?"

Yep. We have a special regulation that makes student debt non-dischargeable. We should also make it tougher to get a loan if the costs exceed a certain average tuition amount.

So anybody could a few thousand bucks no problem to go to Community College, but to borrow $100k for 4 years at NYU, or Laureate University, you'd have to show Sky High SAT scores to qualify.

Also the GI Bill should not be allowed to be used to access loans only for schools that have been operating for at least 30 years.

Dan8267 says

Capitalism works only for luxuries, not necessities or infrastructure. Education is infrastructure.

I missed that class in economics theory. Where between Adam Smith and Paul Krugman did they explain this?
Free markets applies for classic goods. Differentiated monoploistic goods may apply as well. Public
goods only partially (if part of it is paid for the user). Why isn't education a classic good?

thunderlips11 is deplorable says

. We have a special regulation that makes student debt non-dischargeable

That would be against the free market, because you are not allowed to choose your level of risk. Same for npn-recourse/recourse loans. Different states/countries chose one oor the other, but at the end it should be a decision of the consumer what collateral does he use. The house itself? The house of your parents? Personal wages up to a limit?

What is missing for a real free market is good information. If Joe has a SAT X , has family liabilities Y, and goes to college Z, how much money is he likely to be getting after he graduates? And what about risk? Can he insure the loan in case the job market goes down or in case he has to leave school because his parents get ill?

Buying a smartphone becomes usually a more sophisticated economic decission

Ironman says

Or, make the loan amount a percentage of what the salary of the degree attempted pays. You want a loan to get a degree in middle eastern basketweaving, a job that pays $10K a year, it should be lower. You want to be a physician that makes $100K+ a year, and you have a SAT that supports it, the loan can be larger.

A man with a plan just like dan. Just about as practical too.

ja says

Dan8267 says

Capitalism works only for luxuries, not necessities or infrastructure. Education is infrastructure.

I missed that class in economics theory. Where between Adam Smith and Paul Krugman did they explain this?

Not to worry. Dan missed all his econ classes, so he started to make things up.

georgeliberte says

You might ask: What do these administrators do?

Spend lots of money. Outrageous administration costs are a big part of the problem. But the whole system is a problem. Colleges in the US are a huge self serving, self perpetuating industry selling a product. Part of selling is marketing. A big part of marketing college degrees is school reputation. So colleges are always on the lookout for marketing advantages. This means spending lots of money. Physical campus, sports programs, superstar professors, superstar research departments, palatial living facilities, the list goes on. Colleges like to cry that government funding has been cut so they have to raise prices. Simply not true. State spending per student inflation adjusted is much higher today than the 60's or 70's when inflation adjusted tuition’s were much lower.

The whole thing is a gigantic brain washing exercise. Why parents and students go along like lemmings by the millions every year is a mystery to me. There are so many ways to beat the system. Community college, clep, college courses during high school, going overseas, etc., etc. etc..

My son and I are looking at University of St Petersburg (the alma matar of Vladimir Lenin and Vladimir Putin, not the one in florida) right now at around 6k a year. Total 6k a year, not 6k a year tuition. There are even scholarships for foreign students available that I'm looking at to lower the costs further. He wants to work in international business. Being fluent enough in russian to get his degree at a russian university and having lived 4 years in russia will be hard to top on a resume. It will certainly beat the shit out of having a degree in russian studies at our local state university costing 8 times as much.

Ironman says

bob2356 says

A man with a plan

Yep, just as good as the one you proposed...

Oh wait, you didn't propose any.... you just stopped by for your daily "Cranky Spew and Run".

I've proposed quite workable plans many times on many threads covering a range of subjects. Your advanced syphilitic dementia makes any post anyone makes a spew and run since you can't retain anything. For example, I have posted dozens of virulently anti hillary comments. Yet you think somehow I'm a hillary supporter. The best I can figure is it's because anyone who can put together a coherent sentence must be a hillary and/or bernie supporter in your mind since they obviously can't be part of your far right wing stupidity fest.

bob2356 says

My son and I are looking at University of St Petersburg (the alma matar of Vladimir Lenin and Vladimir Putin, not the one in florida) right now at around 6k a year. Total 6k a year, not 6k a year tuition. There are even scholarships for foreign students available that I'm looking at to lower the costs further.

Most public universities in Germany accept foreign students for nearly FREE (ca. 200 euro/semester administration fee). They even have financial help for non-EU citizens under certain conditions - see http://www.bafög.de/de/-8-staatsangehoerigkeit-224.php.

Having been to Moscow and St Petersburg many times, I would not advise anyone to live there if they can avoid that. Also, I am not sure how much a degree from Russia would help in international business as there are plenty Russians who graduate from US and Europe schools. They will have much better feel for business culture in Russia compared with an American who has lived in Russia for 4 yrs. Besides, Russians will have better connections with businesses in Russia. Most of Russian elite kids study in West - they will be the ones hired for meaningful positions. Companies, like it or not, will hire a graduate from a better known school over a similar quality/experience student from a school they do not know. Out of Russian schools, only Moscow State is well-known internationally.

drBu says

Most public universities in Germany accept foreign students for nearly FREE (ca. 200 euro/semester administration fee). They even have financial help for non-EU citizens under certain conditions - see http://www.bafög.de/de/-8-staatsangehoerigkeit-224.php.

I'm well aware of that, which is why we are applying for a congress-bundestag german year abroad scholarship as well as a NSLI-Y russian year abroad scholarship.

drBu says

Also, I am not sure how much a degree from Russia would help in international business as there are plenty Russians who graduate from US and Europe schools. They will have much better feel for business culture in Russia compared with an American who has lived in Russia for 4 yrs. Besides, Russians will have better connections with businesses in Russia. Most of Russian elite kids study in West - they will be the ones hired for meaningful positions. Companies, like it or not, will hire a graduate from a better known school over a similar quality/experience student from a school they do not know.

Despite your glib dismissal, a business degree from Russia would have real value for someone who wants to work for a company doing business with russia. Russia is the 10th largest export economy in the world. The numbers for US, imports at 27 billion and exports at 11 billion, aren't very big, but the rest of the world does a lot of business with russia to the tune of 450b exports, 300b imports.

You contradict yourself. What fresh college graduate has a feel for business culture or connections with business at all? Give me a break, the average college graduate starting out is lucky to find the bathroom and break room. Plenty of russians who graduate us schools? Out of 800,000 F1 student visas in 2015 less than 5000 were to russians. Any that want to stay and work in the US will have to get a green card, not that easy to do.

Sorry to disagree, but I've travelled and lived in europe, austrolasia, and the middle east. A US applicant would have a big hiring advantage over a Russian applicant, even a Russian applicant with a western degree, in places I've been. A US applicant with overseas experience, a very rare creature, would have even more so. Once you are out of the states only the ivy league schools and MIT really carry any name recognition for US schools. I checked harvard, there are 6 russian students there. http://www.hio.harvard.edu/statistics I'm sure the other ivies and MIT aren't any different.

St Petersburg State University is certainly well-known internationally. Several of the schools like linguistics and engineering - mineral & mining are in the top 100 world wide. Others like history & archaeology, mathematics, modern languages and physics & astronomy are in the top 200. http://www.topuniversities.com/node/9068/ranking-details/university-subject-rankings/university-rankings Well known except being known in America, where I doubt 1 person in 1000 could name any university in russia, even Moscow State (actually Lomonosov Moscow State University).

ja says

I missed that class in economics theory.

If you think that economics class explains everything in the subject, you're in for a great disappointment.

A good student questions, not follows.

Dan8267 says

If you think that economics class explains everything in the subject, you're in for a great disappointment.

A good student questions, not follows.

Rigth. I also don't think the theory of gravity explains everything. But I don't look up when I drop something

ja says

But I don't look up when I drop something

Which is why you can't find the helium balloon you dropped.

Dan8267 says

Which is why you can't find the helium balloon you dropped.

And why we had to come up with Arquimedian models, empircally verifiable.

I'm still waiting for a mention of any academic model of your statements. Or we don't need any?

bob2356 says

Despite your glib dismissal, a business degree from Russia would have real value for someone who wants to work for a company doing business with russia. Russia is the 10th largest export economy in the world. The numbers for US, imports at 27 billion and exports at 11 billion, aren't very big, but the rest of the world does a lot of business with russia to the tune of 450b exports, 300b imports.

I wish your son the best.
Russian exports are almost entirely natural resources and military hardware. Hardly any consumer items. Germany, on the other hand is a manufacturing superpower. From cars to washing machines, nothing but the best.

ja says

I'm still waiting for a mention of any academic model of your statements. Or we don't need any?

Go for it Dan. We need a laugh.

Strategist says

I wish your son the best.

Russian exports are almost entirely natural resources and military hardware. Hardly any consumer items. Germany, on the other hand is a manufacturing superpower. From cars to washing machines, nothing but the best.

Quite true. On the other hand, people have made a hell of a lot more money in oil and guns than in washing machines.

I don't know why but he has been fascinated by Russia and Russian history for years. Probably the only kid in the entire US to read War and Peace plus Anna Karenina before starting high school. Russian is the 8th most spoken language and he already speaks Spanish. I think its a good plan that I certainly support. Especially the part about 6k a year for college meaning starting a career with zero college debt to pay, Trilingual, education in 3 countries, long term living in 3 countries, multiple citizenships. Makes for a pretty eye catching resume for a new college grad, especially since he plans for some summer internships in other countries in eastern europe.

I'm impressed he worked this out all on his own. The school guidance counsellor is sitting around clueless scratching her head going "huh" "what".

Because the stupid parents & students go into debt to continue allowing cost to rise.
Doesn't seem complicated to me.

bob2356 says

Despite your glib dismissal, a business degree from Russia would have real value for someone who wants to work for a company doing business with russia. Russia is the 10th largest export economy in the world. The numbers for US, imports at 27 billion and exports at 11 billion, aren't very big, but the rest of the world does a lot of business with russia to the tune of 450b exports, 300b imports.

You contradict yourself. What fresh college graduate has a feel for business culture or connections with business at all? Give me a break, the average college graduate starting out is lucky to find the bathroom and break room. Plenty of russians who graduate us schools? Out of 800,000 F1 student visas in 2015 less than 5000 were to russians. Any that want to stay and work in the US will have to get a green card, not that easy to do.

I most certainly wish your son success in achieving his goals. It is impressive if he has learned Russian. I am wondering however how much you and your son have traveled in Russia - have you visited student dorms in Russian schools or Russian schools themselves? May be U of St Petersburg is different - I have not been at that school, but a typical Westerner will not be very happy with the life in Russian dorms, and renting will make cost substantially higher.

Also, I disagree with business connection issue. As I said, many (most) Russians who study abroad (and not necessarily have Russian citizenship - many have obtained US or W European papers) are children of well-connected individuals in Russia, which makes doing business in/with Russia much easier. It is not necessarily business experience, but connections and knowledge of local culture that will benefit them. It would be beneficial to see how well foreign graduates of St Petersburg University have fared in getting jobs of their choice.

Many people in West have a romantic view of Russia that they get from Soviet times or famous Russian literature of the past. It is very different there now. Education actually has become much worse than during Soviet times which is when I graduated over there. Graduates of Higher Chemical College of RAS (which is the top school in Russia for chemistry) have told me that "it is not what it used to be even in 90's". Admittedly, this is not business education.

https://icpc.baylor.edu/worldfinals/results

ja says

I'm still waiting for a mention of any academic model of your statements. Or we don't need any?

Appeal to authority means nothing. Economics should be a science, but it isn't treated as such by academia. The singular statement -- I have no idea why you are using the plural -- that you objected to is "Capitalism works only for luxuries, not necessities or infrastructure. Education is infrastructure.", and I base that statement on empirical evidence.

Evidence, not appeal to authority, is what matters. Capitalism has empirically failed for all infrastructure and necessities that it has been tried on. I don't need an academic authority to tell me the sun rose yesterday. I directly observed that.

Here are some of the empirical failures of capitalism for infrastructure and necessities.

1. Agriculture

Agriculture has been heavily subsidized by the federal government for over a century because left to capitalism, agriculture failures and food shortages are common.

http://www.encyclopedia.com/topic/agricultural_subsidies.aspx

Proponents of agriculture subsidies point to several reasons why they are necessary. They claim that the country's food supply is too critical to the nation's well-being to be governed by uncontrolled market forces. They also contend that in order to keep a steady food supply, farmers' incomes must be somewhat stable, or many farms would go out of business during difficult economic times. These premises are not accepted by all lawmakers and are the subject of continual debate. Critics argue that the subsidies are exceedingly expensive and do not achieve the desired market stability.

The U.S. government first initiated efforts to control the agriculture economy during the Great Depression of the late 1920s and early 1930s. During this period, farm prices collapsed, and farmers became increasingly desperate in attempts to salvage their livelihood, sometimes staging violent protests.

One can also show that although farm subsidies are necessary to protect the food supply in a capitalist economy, capitalism still creates problems under the system with subsidies.

2. Fire Fighting Services

http://usnews.nbcnews.com/_news/2011/12/07/9272989-firefighters-let-home-burn-over-75-fee-again

Firefighters stood by and watched a Tennessee house burn to the ground earlier this week because the homeowners didn't pay the annual subscription fee for fire service.

It's the second time in two years firefighters in the area have watched a house burn because of unpaid fees. Last year, Gene Cranick of Obion County and his family lost all of their possessions in a house fire, along with three dogs and a cat, because the fire fee wasn't paid.

That's right. They let four pets die horribly over a $75 fee. That's capitalism for you.

3. Privatized Prisons

http://www.npr.org/sections/thetwo-way/2016/08/18/490498158/justice-department-will-phase-out-its-use-of-private-prisons

U.S. Justice Department officials plan to phase out their use of private prisons to house federal inmates, reasoning that the contract facilities offer few benefits for public safety or taxpayers.

In making the decision, Deputy Attorney General Sally Yates cited new findings by the Justice Department's inspector general, who concluded earlier this month that a pool of 14 privately contracted prisons reported more incidents of inmate contraband, higher rates of assaults and more uses of force than facilities run by the Federal Bureau of Prisons.

"They simply do not provide the same level of correctional services, programs and resources; they do not save substantially on costs; and ... they do not maintain the same level of safety and security," Yates wrote in a memo Thursday.

Not to mention that private prisons created tragedies of justice and undermined our court system.

http://www.forbes.com/sites/walterpavlo/2011/08/12/pennsylvania-judge-gets-life-sentence-for-prison-kickback-scheme/#11032d6a69a3

Pennsylvania Judge Gets 'Life Sentence' For Prison Kickback Scheme

Former Luzerne County (Pennsylvania) Judge Mark Ciavarella has been spending his time doing odd jobs for a car towing service while awaiting sentencing since being found guilty on felony corruption charges. His car towing days are over, and the 61-year-old judge is heading to federal prison for 28 years — this could amount to a life sentence.

His sentence brings to closure a dark time in the history of the city of Wilkes-Barre, PA, which is in Luzerne County. He was found guilty in February of racketeering for taking a $1 million kickback from the builder of for-profit prisons for juveniles. Ciavarella who left the bench over two years ago after he and another judge, Michael Conahan, were accused of sentencing youngsters to prisons they had a hand in building. Prosecutors alleged that Conahan, who pleaded guilty last year and is awaiting sentencing, and Ciavarella received kick-backs from the private company that built and maintained the new youth detention facility that replaced the older county-run center.

4. Internet Access

America has substandard Internet access despite having invented the damn thing.

http://www.dailydot.com/layer8/us-broadband-speed-cost-infographic/

Here's how terrible U.S. broadband service really is

The U.S. is ranked 30th in the world in broadband speeds, behind the likes of Iceland, Romania, Bulgaria, France, Russia, and the U.K. To put that ranking in perspective, the U.S. Mens Soccer Team—a sport that 99.1 percent of Americans quit before their 10 birthday—is ranked 13th in the world, and we definitely didn’t invent soccer.

We also pay more for much less, shelling out an average of $55 a month for broadband service, while countries with faster connections like France, Russia and the U.K. all come in at under $45 a month. Even the citizens of Hong Kong—which averages the fastest Internet speeds in the world—pay over 40 percent less than American customers, with an average cost of $31 a month for broadband service.

The breakdown of the cost per megabit for broadband continues the disheartening trend for Americans. At $3.50 per megabit, we are lagging behind countries like Russia ($0.98) and Ukraine ($0.90). This infographic shows how far—in every aspect of the Internet—we have fallen behind.

When it comes to the Internet, the U.S. isn’t leading by any means, and it’s only getting worse. Companies like Comcast, who control vast swaths of America’s Internet access—a number that could grow to 120 million Americans if the merger with Time Warner Cable goes through—has no incentive to bring America back to the forefront of Internet connectivity.

That's right, under capitalism companies have no incentive to do a good job on infrastructure because demand is inelastic. Comcast gets paid the same whether they give good service or shitty service because infrastructure, by its very nature, can't have lots of competitors and suppliers that fail.

Despite this corporations block effective use of WiFi by municipalities because of capitalism. The last thing private owners of a public resource want is for the public to have a cheaper, more effective public option.

http://www.ibtimes.com/why-att-trying-block-small-kansas-town-building-better-isp-1736630

Why Is AT&T Trying To Block A Small Kansas Town From Building A Better ISP?

Chanute, a small Kansas town of 9,000, is pulling a high-tech move straight out of Google's playbook and installing its own fiber optic network so that residents might enjoy faster broadband speeds. This is much to the chagrin of AT&T, which provides its own Internet service to the town, albeit at slower speeds for a higher cost. If Chanute can demonstrate that a town committed to quality Internet service can take care of its own needs, why aren't we seeing more municipal broadband efforts around the country?

This Kansas town has a history of self-reliance -- it also provides its own utilities, ranging from water to sewage to electricity, and is the third-largest electricity producer in Kansas. Now it would like to step up its Internet game, as the town has already been an Internet service provider since 2005 for area hospitals, banks and manufacturers.

"AT&T said they're not going to invest another dime in our community since it's too small. But a number of our residents live out in the country where AT&T's DSL service won't reach -- it only serves homes within 18,000 feet of the telephone central office," Willis said. "These people either go without Internet or rely on a satellite connection, which is far more expensive."

So a corporation doesn't want to even bother providing Internet access to a town because they are worth the trouble, but they go to great lengths to prevent that town from implementing its own solution. Yeah, capitalism really does ensure that resources are allocated efficient and it promotes free markets. (I'm being sarcastic here.)

5. Private mercenaries

Committing crimes against humanity from genocide to gang rape.

http://listverse.com/2014/01/07/11-frightening-facts-about-private-military-companies/

In 2007, Jamie Leigh Jones, an employee of private military contractor Halliburton/KBR, claimed she was gang-raped by several of her co-workers. This traumatic experience was just the beginning of her struggles with the private military company. Her employer then decided to cover up the incident by locking her in a shipping container with no food or water for 24 hours. This was followed with a warning: They’d immediately fire her if she left Iraq to seek medical treatment.

Unsurprisingly, Jones sued. However, the court proceedings proved problematic. KBR’s employee contract stipulated that Jones’s claims be heard without jury, judge, public record, or transcripts, which made it extremely difficult to prove whether or not anything had happened.

I could go on and on, but I think I've made my point.

Empirical evidence matters. Appeal to authority does not.

If the entire field of Astronomy failed to detect a kilometer long asteroid that swung right across LEO, everybody would say "What is wrong with the fundamental underpinnings of Astrophysics that such a thing went totally undetected, even though it should have been seen by dozens of telescopes, radio or visual or otherwise?"

In Economics, we have the failure to detect an unbelievably vast global financial disaster - complete and utter surprise - and suggestions that the fundamental underpinnings of econometrics are flaws are met with scoffing and eye rolling.

Where is the data on job placement within the fields that each university is turning out graduates for?

drBu says

I am wondering however how much you and your son have traveled in Russia - have you visited student dorms in Russian schools or Russian schools themselves?

That's why he is spending next summer in a language course in St Petersburg and I'm going to check it out also. If it really is intolerable or disillusioning then he has 2 years to check out other choices.

drBu says

Also, I disagree with business connection issue. As I said, many (most) Russians who study abroad (and not necessarily have Russian citizenship - many have obtained US or W European papers) are children of well-connected individuals in Russia, which makes doing business in/with Russia much easier. It is not necessarily business experience, but connections and knowledge of local culture that will benefit them.

Sorry but I refuse to believe there are enough native Russians who have studied abroad to fill all the business positions around the world for companies doing business with Russia. So tell me, how many children of well-connected individuals actually go to study in the west every year? Around 5000 a year get visa's to study in the US. How many in Europe? What schools do they go to?

How can children of well-connected individuals in Russia not be Russian citizens, that makes zero sense. What papers? Green cards? They still need a Russian citizenship, they can't go stateless. Western citizenship takes 6-8 years on average. Are you saying children of well-connected individuals in Russia have been overseas 6-8 years getting citizenship to go to college? That makes even less sense.

thunderlips11 is deplorable says

If the entire field of Astronomy failed to detect a kilometer long asteroid that swung right across LEO

So true.

thunderlips11 is deplorable says

In Economics, we have the failure to detect an unbelievably vast global financial disaster - complete and utter surprise - and suggestions that the fundamental underpinnings of econometrics are flaws are met with scoffing and eye rolling.

Yep, most of what academia teaches as economics is bullshit religious dogma that is not subject to the scientific method. That's the first problem.

The second problem is that lazy people are willing to say, well that's what they teach so who are you to question it.

Real science stands up to questioning regardless of the source. You don't have to have an accredited degree to point out a flaw in a theory, especially a flaw in which the theory makes a prediction that is directly contradicted by observation.

If observation contradicts your theory, then your theory is wrong. The universe isn't.

Ultimately reality is the real test of all ideas.

Dan8267 says

Here are some of the empirical failures of capitalism for infrastructure and necessities.

Forgot to mention the two big ones: education and health care.

I was reminded when reading How the Sugar Industry Shifted Blame to Fat which shows yet another failure in capitalism that has caused tens of millions of American deaths.

bob2356 says

I checked harvard, there are 6 russian students there.

Check again. This number is not correct. It should be obvious to anybody who has been anywhere near an Ivy League university.

Another great "success" of capitalism, the airline industry.

Airlines charge fees to sit with your family

So it is the airline industry has concocted a relatively new fee: Charging you extra to sit with your loved ones.

You think it's common courtesy for an airline to let you sit next to those with whom you're actually flying?

Don't be silly.

Once airlines realized you like sitting next to the people who are named on your reservation, guess what they thought?

Yes, additional revenue opportunities.

So, as the Wall Street Journal reports, some airlines are now charging a so-called "family fee."

Want to sit next to, oh, your children? But of course. We'd love to help. Give us more money.

Joke's on them. I'd pay extra to not sit near my kids.

It would be worth paying extra to make sure your kids aren't seated next to CIC. The man has a history.

thunderlips11 is deplorable says

GI Bill should not be allowed to be used to access loans only for schools that have been operating for at least 30 years.

why are you now suddenly 'deplorable'?

FP says

bob2356 says

I checked harvard, there are 6 russian students there.

Check again. This number is not correct. It should be obvious to anybody who has been anywhere near an Ivy League university.

The HIO office page does say it doesn't represent "official Harvard enrolment". But luckily we do have the official Harvard page from the prevost office. http://worldwide.harvard.edu/international-students-country-and-school-2013-14-0 That number is 34 for 2013/14. Not so luckily the number includes all 15 of schools at Harvard including all the the graduate schools (like medical, dentist business, law, etc.). It also says it double counts anyone enrolled in more than one school. So it's true we don't know the exact number of Russian students actually in Harvard college undergrad itself. But it probably very safe to say it is less than 34. That would be out of 21,000.

Where would you suggest I check since you feel that Harvard doesn't have the correct information about their own enrolments? I would think Harvard would actually know how many Russian students they have enrolled, but somehow you disagree. What exactly do you think would be a more accurate source than Harvard's HIO statistics web page or the Harvard prevost office? Where did you check that represents a more reliable source of information on Harvard enrolments than Harvard itself and why didn't you post the link to it?

I am all a quiver eagerly awaiting your information enlightening us how many there really are.

MMR says

hunderlips11 is deplorable says

GI Bill should not be allowed to be used to access loans only for schools that have been operating for at least 30 years.

why are you now suddenly 'deplorable'?

Because he's voting for trump. Hillary says so

drBu says

Many people in West have a romantic view of Russia that they get from Soviet times

What Soviet times? I read Russia times occasionally. Is that what you are talking about? It's not at all romanticizing, it's pretty gritty actually.

bob2356 says

I am all a quiver eagerly awaiting your information enlightening us how many there really are.

I pointed out that the number that you stated - 6, is incorrect. The additional info that you came up with only corroborates my claim. Discussion over.

P.S. In my class in grad school, physics dept. ivy league university, there were 3 russian students. One became a prof at a top US university, two went to work for McKinsey - one in NYC, one in Moscow.