patrick.net

Dan8267 says

At least science is on the right track

Science has usually been on the right track. For example 110 years ago when Newtonian mechanics was the cutting edge of physics, it was on the right track. Nobody thinks we are done yet with physics, and everyone knows we are really far from understanding the human mind. So I'll stick for now with logic.

In the Atlantic article I linked (which does give some credence to Harris' view as a counterpoint to the thesis of the article), they cite experiments and surveys that show people behave differently when they believe they have free will than when they don't. I think those experiments should be followed up,, to verify the results. If this is true, is it not an indirect proof that free will exists ? Sam Harris would say that in those cases it's becasue those people become fatalists which is the wrong way to view not having free will. So ? It's still true that when they believed they didn't have free will, they were likely to behave differently.

Dan8267 says

nor does morality imply free will.

I agree, not in the absolute sense. But possibly in a relative sense to some degree ?

marcus says

. Nobody thinks we are done yet with physics, and everyone knows we are really far from understanding the human mind.

Which is what makes it a straw man. The scientific method just works. It's a self-correcting, accurate, and verifiable method for understanding the universe. No other methodology comes close to the performance of the scientific method. And it's not mutually exclusive with math and logic. Science uses math and logic to their fullest extent.

marcus says

they cite experiments and surveys that show people behave differently when they believe they have free will than when they don't.

Whether or not people believe in free will does not affect whether or not free real is real.

marcus says

Sam Harris would say that in those cases it's becasue those people become fatalists which is the wrong way to view not having free will. So ? It's still true that when they believed they didn't have free will, they were likely to behave differently.

The solution to not dealing with reality the right way isn't self-delusion but rather changing the way you deal with that reality. For example, drinking yourself into a stupor isn't the correct way to avoid the fact that you lost your job. The healthy thing to do is acknowledge your loss and find a new job. Self delusion is never the answer. If you cannot be honest with yourself, you aren't making the best decisions.

marcus says

I agree, not in the absolute sense. But possibly in a relative sense to some degree ?

I don't know what you mean.

Dan8267 says

I don't know what you mean.

It has more to do with believing in free will than having it. Believing in it seems to lead to taking more responsibility for your actions. That is according to experiments and surveys.

Dan8267 says

Whether or not people believe in free will does not affect whether or not free real is real.

But if the belief leads to different results, what does it tell you ?

You argue that delusion is wrong (let's suppose for a moment that I accept your truth (which I don't ).

What if both of these are true ?

1) We have no free will

2) Believing we have free will makes us a better person.

Without telling me why you don't want to believe #2, please, supposing both are true, how can you justify advocating that people believe we have no free will ?

I'm predicting that you will not answer the question, but rather claim that somehow both of these can not be true.

Besides, even Harris would probably admit that he can not prove there is no free will. He just believes it very deeply. I find this type of argument ironic coming from a hardcore atheist. He says his meditations make it especially clear to him. Can you see why I find that amusing ? We don't actually know we have no free will any more than we know with certainty that our experience of reality and of our self can totally be explained using our current understandings of our physical reality (and our brains). For all we know, there may be huge breakthroughs in science that will be required before we fully understand the role that consciousness plays in our experience and not to mention understanding in detail how physically our experience of mind/consciousness occurs.

marcus says

It has more to do with believing in free will than having it. Believing in it seems to lead to taking more responsibility for your actions.

1. It is also the case that belief in free will causes people to commit horrible acts on others who they believe "deserve it".
2. Encouraging a lie because you believe it will make people better is not only unethical and disrespectful to those people, but ultimately self-destructive. Foundations of lies can be corrupted, and when the lie is inevitably exposed, ticked off people will do the opposite of what you want anyway. It's better to promote moral and responsible behavior with the truth.
3. The truth is that the lack of free will does not absolve anyone of their legal, ethical, or moral responsibilities. Understanding this is more beneficial than any lie every could be.

marcus says

But if the belief leads to different results, what does it tell you ?

That people can be manipulated. However, that does not mean it is right to deceive people even if you have good intentions.

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marcus says

1) We have no free will

2) Believing we have free will makes us a better person.

Although studies may show that under some conditions #2 makes some people behave better, we can see empirical proof that it causes other people to behave much, much worse. It's quite questionable if the short-term net gain is positive. It's almost certain that the long-term net gain is negative.

It ultimately comes down to this. Do you believe that good or evil works better? Which results in a better quality of life? I believe good does. Evil is short-sighted and self-defeating. It often offers short-term gains in excess of good, which is why it is tempting. But it is evil precisely because in the long-run it is bad.

I would say that you should renounce the lie even if it's useful in the short term because practical reasons make it counter-productive in the long run. And even if a lie was net beneficial in the long run, you should still renounce it because it is morally wrong and unethical to promote the lie. Sure, there are some lies that should be told. If you are hiding a Jew and the Nazis ask you if any Jews are around, you should lie. However, there is no good lie that requires deceiving all of society for lifetimes or millennials. If there were the case, then evil would be superior to good, and dishonesty superior to honesty. I do not accept such a proposition. There is no evidence in the universe to support the assertion that evil outperforms good in the long run, and there is plenty of evidence that good ultimately provides better returns.

Well, give me the exact answer I expected. You did answer it though.

It changes in an important way, when you realize that we really don't know whether we have free will or not.

marcus says

I'm predicting that you will not answer the question, but rather claim that somehow both of these can not be true.

Well, your prediction was completely wrong, as usual. And I didn't read the above sentence before writing my responses above. I often take posts in piecemeal so as to address each point.

Tell me Marcus, are you ever going to admit that you don't have a grasp on what goes on in the internals of my mind? It's not that my reasoning is hard to follow or unpredictable, but you simply cannot predict behavior that doesn't fit your preconceived notions. You are completely lousy at predicting my behavior.

Dan8267 says

It's almost certain that the long-term net gain is negative.

I don't agree. Not even close.

Plus, if everyone is agreeing that bad behavior is punished, then it is sometimes going to prevent the psychopath from killing, out of self preservation. In the same way that North Korea is prevented from nuking anyone, regardless of how crazy their leader is.

Again,

marcus says

It changes in an important way, when you realize that we really don't know whether we have free will or not.

I get it that you and Sam Harris want it to be an axiom.

marcus says

We don't actually know we have no free will

There is no reason to accept this statement. People are capable of knowing things, and knowing that they know them. If this weren't the case, no one would ever get surgery or take a plane ride. We literally bet our lives on our knowledge.

marcus says

any more than we know with certainty that our experience of reality and of our self can totally be explained using our current understandings of our physical reality (and our brains).

No one has made such a claim. However, one does not have to know everything about the universe to know that we don't have free will. It is impossible given the laws of nature we do know, just like creating a perpetual motion machine is known to be impossible. You may not like that answer, but it's the truth. Hell, I may not like the answer either. It's not like I'm rooting for one side. The difference is that I am compelled to believe the truth based on evidence and reasoning rather than based on what I want to be true.

By the way, why do I always have to be the Scully to all you Mulders? It's time you applied some healthy skepticism to things.

marcus says

I'm predicting that you will not answer the question, but rather claim that somehow both of these can not be true.

marcus says

Well, give me the exact answer I expected. You did answer it though.

How can you expect me to not answer a question while also expecting me to give a specific answer? You're ability to believe two contradicting things simultaneously is one of the fundamental problems with your thinking processes.

Dan8267 says

People are capable of knowing things, and knowing that they know them.

Of course. But the free will question is still widely debated, and is not knowable unless you make several assumptions about the world being deterministic in a totally understood way. .

Good essay about what sometimescounts as knowing things today.
http://www.sltrib.com/opinion/4875283-155/george-f-will-an-excess-of

marcus says

Plus, if everyone is agreeing that bad behavior is punished, then it is sometimes going to prevent the psychopath from killing, out of self preservation.

No one has ever made the claim that the lack of free will means there should be a lack of legal accountability. In fact, all those who have stated that free will does not exist have also stated that we should still lock of prisoners for both public safety from repeat behavior and as deterrents for the criminal and others. The one difference in our legal system between accepting the false notion of free will and rejecting it, is that as long as free will is accepted it will continue to be used as a justification for inflicting pointless and needless suffering on people that has nothing to do with protecting the public or deterring crimes. There are countless examples of people being beaten, abused, tortured, killed, humiliated, or otherwise made to suffer because "they deserve it". At the heart of all this pseudo-morality is the false belief in free will.

Dan8267 says

At the heart of all this pseudo-morality is the false belief in free will.

There are plenty of good Christians (for example) who believe in free will and are opposed to the kind of abuse, and inflicted suffering you describe. Not saying that religion is never used in this way. Many fundamentalists do. But consider the pope for example or the dali Lama, or countless religous leaders who do not advocate cruelty but who do of course believe in free will

marcus says

But the free will question is still widely debated

Climate change is still widely debated precisely because one side refuses to acknowledge the truth and, in fact, does not care about the truth. If one side wants a falsehood to be accepted by society, as you suggest for free will, then that side will never acknowledge the truth. They may have religious, political, or financial reasons for advocating a falsehood, but they will not ever change. You cannot convince a man of a truth that threatens his livelihood.

Religion's power is largely based on the free will lie. Religious leaders are not going to admit it's all a lie.

marcus says

and is not knowable unless you make several assumptions about the world being the way you want it to be.

The only "assumptions" I make is that there are laws of nature. That's a pretty safe assumption considering we built all of modern society, not only on that assumption, but on a specific set of accepted laws of nature. You could not write in this forum if those laws were wrong.

marcus says

There are plenty of good Christians (for example) who believe in free will and are opposed to the kind of abuse, and inflicted suffering you describe.

Irrelevant. This does not contradict the fact that many people commit abuse because of the false belief in free will. Furthermore, those Christians would not suddenly become sadists if they stopped believing in free will. Is the belief in free will the only reason you don't rape your own children to death? I think not. So the belief in free will is not a net gain.

Dan8267 says

The only "assumptions" I make is that there are laws of nature.

Now we're getting somewhere. Yes. But you assume that you know way more of these laws than you (or anyone does). We have no idea how the laws of nature work that allow us to feel that we experience a conscious (decision making) self and that allow us to intelligently get closer to fully understanding these laws and ourselves.

marcus says

We have no idea how the laws of nature work that allow us to feel that we experience a conscious (decision making) self

Consciousness does not imply free will, and free will does not imply consciousness. We do not have to know anything about consciousness in order to rule out the possibility that will is free. Just think about what "free will" or "will that is free" actually means. Free from what? Free from being determined by the laws of nature. That's what free will means. Nothing caused in the universe is caused by anything but the laws of nature, by definition. Ergo, free will cannot exist. It's existence would be, by definition, a violation of the laws of nature, whatever those laws are. We don't have to know any of the laws of nature to know that free will does not exist because it would have to violate whatever natural laws did exist.

This is indisputable deductive reasoning. It flows directly from the definition. A priori logic is all that is required.

Dan8267 says

This does not contradict the fact that many people commit abuse because of the false belief in free will. Furthermore, those Christians would not suddenly become sadists if they stopped believing in free will. Is the belief in free will the only reason you don't rape your own children to death? I think not. So the belief in free will is not a net gain.

Do you think this is a good argument ? I only stated the obvious fact that you can not generalize that people that believe in free will are cruel. I don't see a compelling argument or even a slightly reasonable argument that belief in free will is a net negative. You have one example of how it can SOMETIMES can be negative.

Also, on a somewhat unrelated note, there are theories out there that sometimes being vindictive towards those that do us harm is actually part of our genetic programming. This was discussed on an NPR program yesterday. This would presumably be independent of belief in free will.

Dan8267 says

Consciousness does not imply free will, and free will does not imply consciousness

Correct. But consciousness is a part of the laws of nature that you assume can be parameterized to make us such a deterministic machine. We don't know that when we reflect on a decision and bring all the rational thought, emotion, ego, and various other factors into consideration, that this conscious and self conscious process happens as you see it as strictly a function of all physical, historical, and environmental inputs. Possibly there are laws that even involve factors outside of the 3 dimensional reality we usually confine our analysis to, that we do not understand at all. We just don't know what we don't know. Clearly of the many things we don't know, some of these pertain to consciousness.

I'll admit that not having your definition of free will seems likely. But I still know that we don't know.

marcus says

Do you think this is a good argument ?

I think it thoroughly disproves your implication that the false belief in free will does not have a downside.

marcus says

I only stated the obvious fact that you can not generalize that people that believe in free will are cruel.

It is obvious that I did not say anything that remotely implies that all or even most people who believe in free will are cruel. This is a straw man argument.

What I said was that free will causes many people to do cruel things because they believe their victims deserve it. This is empirically true. I could spend the next four hours listing example after example. Do you really want to try to refute this?

marcus says

You have one example of how it can SOMETIMES can be negative.

It's not a rare example. Every second of every day millions of people around the world are victimized by this negative. That's not trivial.

Right now, as we are having this conversation, countless people are being raped by prison guards because "they deserve it". And yes, I mean rape.

marcus says

Also, on a somewhat unrelated note, there are theories out there that sometimes being vindictive towards those that do us harm is actually part of our genetic programming.

Of course it is. It was a strategy that worked in the Stone Age, when you could benefit your genetic code by killing off rivals, sexual or otherwise. It doesn't work in the modern age. The entire problem with conservatives is that they still use a Stone Age mindset. Don't be like them.

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marcus says

This would presumably be independent of belief in free will.

Of course it is, but this is irrelevant. The rationalize argument that bad people deserve to suffer is the problem I mentioned so many times, and that is related to the false belief in free will.

marcus says

Possibly there are laws that even involve factors outside of the 3 dimensional reality we usually confine our analysis to, that we do not understand at all.

Whether we know any, nonetheless all, of the laws of nature are irrelevant. We still know that free will would require a violation of the laws of nature, by definition, and therefore cannot exist.

Dan8267 says

It's not a rare example. Every second of every day millions of people around the world are victimized by this negative. That's not trivial.

The flaw in this argument is that you assume that somehow cruel vindictive assholes become enlightened kind and compassionate once they understand we have no free will. That's absurd. We have plenty of available knowledge that have nothing to do with whether you believe in free will, that could just as easily help these assholes become more compassionate, kinder, more understanding, and less hateful and violent.

You don't have to believe there is zero free will in order to to understand that many circumstances outside of ones control lead them to be who they are. The issue here is compassion, which is also independent of free will, but apparently dependent (to some degree) on whether we believe we have free will.

Dan8267 says

Of course Joe is going to save the toddler because his morality demands it. That morality came from evolution and is implemented in his brain by atoms that mindlessly follow QED. It is predestined that Joe would save the toddler. Joe would always have saved the toddler.

Free will does not imply morality, nor does morality imply free will.

Harris himself in one podcast says "morality is the question of what to do next". If you cannot make a choice, if everything will happen regardless of what you want, then this question doesn't arise because you won't choose what to do next: You're just an automaton reacting to stimuli. Nothing you do is a moral choice. It's all a chain of cause-effects. You can never change anything, nor be blamed for anything because you have not changed anything.

This defeats utterly the very definition of moral.

Heraclitusstudent says

But the question is: did it matter what Joe wanted? Did it matter what he thought he should do?

And the answer is a resounding YES. It changed the outcome.

Does it matter that choices are done in a deterministic fashion?

The answer is: for all practical purposes, absolutely NOT.

That's all there is to this question.

You are not answering these points: Does it matter what we want? What we think we should do?
Why would it matter to us the manner in which we make choices? Deterministic or not.

Dan8267 says

It ultimately comes down to this. Do you believe that good or evil works better? Which results in a better quality of life? I believe good does.

Does it matter what you believe? I thought it's all a chain of cause and effects, neurons firing and we cannot deviate from a pre-ordained path.
In that case explain why your belief in good matters.

marcus says

The flaw in this argument is that you assume that somehow cruel vindictive assholes become enlightened kind and compassionate once they understand we have no free will. That's absurd.

I don't assume they will become lovey-dovey, but the evidence presented in the videos above does show that the excuse that people have free will makes it easier for people to be vindictive against real or imagined slights. It certainly affects the sentences passed by judges in the U.S. One only has to look at the distinction between people of sound mind vs less than sound mind to see that.

marcus says

zero free will

Free will can't be throttled. Even a tiny bit of it would wholesale violate the laws of nature.

Heraclitusstudent says

Dan8267 says

It ultimately comes down to this. Do you believe that good or evil works better? Which results in a better quality of life? I believe good does.

Does it matter what you believe? I thought it's all a chain of cause and effects, neurons firing and we cannot deviate from a pre-ordained path.

In that case explain why your belief in good matters.

There are no contradictions in my statements.

A person acts on his beliefs. That doesn't imply free will. Of course it matters what a person believes regardless of whether or not that belief and the resulting actions are preordained. Beliefs influence will, but will is not free.

Dan8267 says

A person acts on his beliefs. That doesn't imply free will. Of course it matters what a person believes regardless of whether or not that belief and the resulting actions are preordained. Beliefs influence will, but will is not free.

So let me get this straight, a person's beliefs, influence his/her choices and dictates what this person does, even if all this is purely deterministic?

Now... that sure sounds like what I have been arguing this entire thread...

And of course this person beliefs and will are the results of:
- the wiring of the brain resulting from genes and personal history
- the knowledge, and education of this person
- his/her personal history and experience
- the preferences of this person,
- and moral education of this person
...
i.e. all the things we would identify with. All the things that define who we are as a person.

When we say WE make choices, WE have agency, WE do whatever we want, this is exactly what we mean.

The fact that all this happens in a deterministic way is a second order proposition which is not only profoundly irrelevant to the experience we have making these choices. In fact this second order statement changes ABSOLUTELY NOTHING about what is practically and functionally happening here.

If you think the person cannot do certain things because his/her will is not free, then, by all means, tell us what things this person cannot do because of the absence of "free" will.

Heraclitusstudent says

So let me get this straight, a person's beliefs, influence his/her choices and dictates what this person does, even if all this is purely deterministic?

Of course, and that's because the person's beliefs are also deterministic.

Heraclitusstudent says

Now... that sure sounds like what I have been arguing this entire thread...

That may have been what you meant. It's not what you said. Language matters.

There are no "special layers" in nature that are superior to others and that implement things that lower layer's don't. Psychology, biology, and chemistry are just abstractions of physics. Those "layers" are artificial constructs for the convenience of human understanding. In reality, it's all a particle soup. Everything that happens in psychology happens because of particles undergoing four interactions: the strong nuclear force, the weak nuclear force, the electromagnetic force, and gravity. Everything you think, feel, or do is a direct result of these and only these four interactions.

Heraclitusstudent says

WE make choices

No shit, but the will behind those choices is not free.

Heraclitusstudent says

WE have agency

No shit, but that does not mean our will is free.

Heraclitusstudent says

WE do whatever we want

No shit, but what we want is determined by preconditions. Our desires are also preordained. There is no freedom to deviate from what the laws of nature ultimately cause you to want.

Nothing you said above in any way contradicts the cold, hard fact that will is not the least bit free.

Heraclitusstudent says

If you think the person cannot do certain things because his/her will is not free, then, by all means, tell us what things this person cannot do because of the absence of "free" will.

The lack of free will does not mean you "cannot do things". It means whatever you do is what you had to do given the arrangement of the particle soup that is our universe.

You have will. That will is not free from causality. The laws of nature, four interactions of particles, determines what you will do. You cannot deviate from what you would have done. That means, by definition of free will, you do not have free will. Free will violates natural laws by definition of free will. Free will is precisely making decisions that deviate from what those atoms in your body are suppose to do according to the laws of nature. You cannot get around this conundrum because it is absolute deductive logic. You would have an easier time proving that the square root of two is a rational number.

Dan8267 says

That may have been what you meant. It's not what you said. Language matters.

There aren't that many ways to understand that "we are making choices in a deterministic fashion" and "these choices influence the path of physical events".
Of course, assuming you are not dense as a rock or deliberately using the worse possible interpretation of what I'm saying.

Dan8267 says

There are no "special layers" in nature that are superior to others and that implement things that lower layer's don't. Psychology, biology, and chemistry are just abstractions of physics. Those "layers" are artificial constructs for the convenience of human understanding. In reality, it's all a particle soup.

This is what a layer is: an abstraction of the layers below it. And when I say "We make a choice" (which you now agree on) it's not something that is apparent if you look at the particle soup. It is something that is apparent only because we look at higher layer. And this is in fact the layer we consciously experience.

So layers matter.

Dan8267 says

Our desires are also preordained.

This kind of sentence is meaningless because events in our lives such as "there is a toddler drowning in a shallow pool on the side of the road on your way to work" are basically, if not random, then random enough that calling them "preordained" doesn't reflect practical reality. And same is true for our decisions. The re-entrant nature of our decision making, means chaos, which means anything could come out of it based on minor and apriori irrelevant variations in our state of mind: "preordained" doesn't reflect practical reality.

Dan8267 says

The lack of free will does not mean you "cannot do things". It means whatever you do is what you had to do given the arrangement of the particle soup that is our universe.

You have will. That will is not free from causality. The laws of nature, four interactions of particles, determines what you will do. You cannot deviate from what you would have done. That means, by definition of free will, you do not have free will. Free will violates natural laws by definition of free will.

Ok so I can do whatever "the deterministic apparatus (brain) I identify with" wants.

The question is: assuming I had freewill based on your definition, i.e. violating the laws of physics, how would my experience be any different than the experience I do have?

And if there aren't any practical difference for us then why is the distinction between "deterministic" and "non-deterministic" so important in your definition of freewill?

Heraclitusstudent says

Of course, assuming you are not dense as a rock or deliberately using the worse possible interpretation of what I'm saying.

Actually, I go through great lengths to interpret what you say as accurately as possible. It serves no purpose to me to use a straw man argument. Convincing people means nothing if they are convinced for the wrong reasons. I believe in truth. That is all that matters to me in these conversations. And the truth can withstand any challenge, and so it fears nothing. It requires no deception or manipulation to defend itself. You really don't get my worldview, and your personality will probably prevent you from ever doing so. But here's a summary of it, and by the way, you're Wesley in this example.

www.youtube.com/embed/8W0ff2Xns5g

Heraclitusstudent says

"We make a choice" (which you now agree on)

I never said we didn't make choices. I frequently refer to humans as "deterministic sentient decision making engines".

Choice is not free will. Choice isn't even will. And will, although it clearly exists, isn't free. Will is bounded by the physical apparatus that implements it, and that apparatus is not free to deviate from the laws of nature.

Heraclitusstudent says

So layers matter.

Whether or not layers matter for x, y, or z doesn't matter to the question do we have free will. I'm not saying layers are useless. I'm saying adding layers does not introduce a violation of the laws of nature as required by free will. I don't see why this is a difficult concept to grasp.

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Heraclitusstudent says

Dan8267 says

Our desires are also preordained.

This kind of sentence is meaningless because events in our lives such as "there is a toddler drowning in a shallow pool on the side of the road on your way to work" are basically, if not random, then random enough that calling them "preordained" doesn't reflect practical reality.

It is highly questionable whether or not true randomness exists in the universe or could even exist. You have never understood the difference between the Heisenberg Uncertainty Principle and the Copenhagen Interpretation of quantum mechanics. Nor have you ever understood that there are other interpretations such as Pilot Wave theory that are also perfectly consistent with all known quantum behavior.

But even if true randomness exists, it does not imply free will. Will is not random, and the randomness is not freedom. Furthermore to argue that random collapsing of quantum wave functions creates free will would require that a DOS-level computer from 1982 that's in orbit around the Earth has orders of magnitude more free will than human beings because it is orders of magnitude more affected by quantum events like the emissions of cosmic rays. So unless you are going to argue that computer has more free will then you, then using the Copenhagen Interpretation as bullshit room for free will is disingenuous and contradictory. Clearly, not even you believe that 1982 computer has vastly more free will than you do.

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Heraclitusstudent says

assuming I had freewill based on your definition

It's not my definition. It's the definition. More importantly, a word exists solely to reference a concept. What we call that concept is irrelevant. I'm not going to debate you on what words you want to use. I'm here only to debate the underlying concept. If you deviate from the definition that everyone else has been using for thousands of years, then you are not debating the concept presented in this thread. The concept that every single video above discusses, not just the Sam Harris video.

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Heraclitusstudent says

The question is: assuming I had freewill based on your definition, i.e. violating the laws of physics, how would my experience be any different than the experience I do have?

And if there aren't any practical difference for us then why is the distinction between "deterministic" and "non-deterministic" so important in your definition of freewill?

It's not clear what you are trying to ask, but as usual, I'll try to figure it out as best as I can. I think what you are asking is,

How would a person behave differently if he actually had free will. For example, say two atom-by-atom, particle-by-particle, copies of a person and everything else in a closed environment were completely and absolutely identical in every way -- the laws of physics prevent us from making this so, but they don't technically prevent it from happening -- except that one had free will and the other didn't. How would their behavior diverge in ways that two copies without free will would not?

It is impossible to answer that question because the very notion of free requires a violation of causality. If causality is violated, one cannot answer what is the effect of a cause.

What I can say is that, if there were an infinite number of finite universes, i.e. universes with limited mass-energy such as our own, constructed randomly then there would be an infinite number of identical copies of every universe including our own. In the set of identical universes that are identical at some time T0, all universes would be identical at time T1 > T0. That means every decision you made in one of these universes, your copy would have made in all others in that set. You may not like that answer, but it's the truth.

I don't think we live in such a multiverse, but causality would require that free will cannot exist in any of the universes.

Also, the above was covered early in this thread in the following video.

Dan8267 says

www.youtube.com/embed/WDZaUu-st0Y

The bottom line is that since we are physical beings in a physical universe, free will would have to be implemented as a physical mechanism and that physical mechanism would have to violate the laws of physics. This is a contradiction. We don't live in a universe that tolerates contradictions. If we did, all of math and logic would be invalid and our universe would be completely unintelligible. The most beautiful thing about our universe is that it is self-consistent.

Dan8267 says

Whether or not layers matter for x, y, or z doesn't matter to the question do we have free will. I'm not saying layers are useless. I'm saying adding layers does not introduce a violation of the laws of nature as required by free will. I don't see why this is a difficult concept to grasp.

And I perfectly grasp it. Since I never said at any point in the discussion that layers or choice or whatever, actually introduce a violation of the laws of nature, I don't know why you keep harping on this. Yes this is your definition of freewill, which I'm contesting hence this discussion. If you are so stuck on your position that you are unwilling to consider an argument just because it deviates from your preconceived belief then you don't believe in truth and are incapable of a rational discussion.

I'll say it again: layers matter BECAUSE this is only way we can look at concepts like "choice", or "will", or "belief". We don't look at these concepts as a soup of atom. We couldn't understand them as soup of atoms. We experience them as something happening on a layer above the soup of atom. Therefore trying to discuss these as soup of atom is unlikely to produce any meaningful argument.

Dan8267 says

It is impossible to answer that question because the very notion of free requires a violation of causality. If causality is violated, one cannot answer what is the effect of a cause.

This is funny because you said above:

Dan8267 says

it's not what philosophers, priests, popes, and the average person means by free will.

And you insisted heavily that these people know specifically what they mean by freewill, and they mean your definition, not mine.
I.e. They know freewill is not something deterministic.
And obviously many of them: priests, pope, and many people think we have it.

Now, you are telling us that we couldn't even tell if the freewill these people are talking about is there or not?

If this is the case then you have to admit that having freewill by my definition, or having freewill by your definition, has not practical implication and therefore no relevance whatsoever to our experiences as human beings.

Knowing our thought are deterministic, is sort of like knowing life is carbon based. It's something you learn in books and stop thinking about. For all practical purposes, we are free to do whatever we want, and whether you call it freewill or not, it works like freewill.

Heraclitusstudent says

Since I never said at any point in the discussion that layers or choice or whatever, actually introduce a violation of the laws of nature, I don't know why you keep harping on this.

You have attempted to make the case that what you call layers create free will, and since free will violates the laws of nature, your layers would have to. That is why your argument is wrong.

Heraclitusstudent says

Yes this is your definition of freewill, which I'm contesting hence this discussion.

1. It's not my definition. It is what is meant by the term as it has been used throughout history.
2. This thread isn't a debate on how you want to define the term. It is a debate on the concept behind the term regardless of what you want to call it.
3. If you have such a hang up about calling it free will then call it "ass boogers" for all I care. The subject of the thread is still that concept. Humans don't have ass boogers. Neither does anything else in the universe. Happy? (But don't think I'm going to accept you repurposing the term free will so that you can confuse people into thinking the original concept is valid because the concept behind your new definition is. They aren't the same thing.)

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Heraclitusstudent says

Now, you are telling us that we couldn't even tell if the freewill these people are talking about is there or not?

Search all you want for a contradiction in my statements. You won't find one. And this is clearly not a contradiction.

If the square root of two were a rational number, would the square root of three also be a rational number? This question is impossible to answer because it requires violating the consistency of the universe. It is impossible for the square root of two to be a rational number, so one cannot extrapolate what kind of number the cube root would be if the square root were rational. This does not mean we cannot prove the square root of two is NOT a rational number. This also should not be a difficult concept to understand, and it should be clear that what I'm saying here is true.

Heraclitusstudent says

For all practical purposes, we are free to do whatever we want, and whether you call it freewill or not, it works like freewill.

No. Freedom does not work like free will. It's an entirely different and unrelated concept. Freedom can and should exist. Free will cannot. Being able to do what you want has nothing to do with free will. You are conflating two completely irrelevant concepts.