patrick.net

You know what, this conversation has ran its course. No new arguments are being introduced. They are only being repeated.

It's time for anyone listening in on this conversation to casts their vote of which of us have made the more compelling argument and why.

Dan8267 says

You have attempted to make the case that what you call layers create free will, and since free will violates the laws of nature, your layers would have to. That is why your argument is wrong.

I never said anything like this. You need to go back and actually read what I wrote.
A higher layer obviously cannot you violate laws of nature when the layer below doesn't. This is a stupid interpretation.
However you can look at a soup of atom and think no choice is made anywhere: it's just a chain of causes-effects.
Whereas on a layer above that, clearly (deterministic) choices are made. If you don't look at the right level, you can easily completely miss what is happening.

Dan8267 says

No. Freedom does not work like free will. It's an entirely different and unrelated concept.

You can spend your life talking of a concept "ass boogers". If you can't even tell whether this concept is present or not, this is humongous waste of time.
In any case it has 0 practical implication.

On the other hand freewill is something people think they have, whether rightly or wrongly. It's something practical that has an impact on their lives.
So what are they talking about?

By virtue of the fact people think they have it, it can't be something so abstract that you can't tell if it's there.

Heraclitusstudent says

Dan8267 says

You have attempted to make the case that what you call layers create free will, and since free will violates the laws of nature, your layers would have to. That is why your argument is wrong.

I never said anything like this. You need to go back and actually read what I wrote.

Heraclitusstudent says

The key concept here is that of layers. This is what Harris is missing.

Heraclitusstudent says

1 - there are 2 layers: the physical layer which (for the current purpose of describing the brain or a computer) is deterministic and so ON THIS LAYER there is no choice. The 2nd layer is the "conscious" layer at which a choice is made.

2 - What you are saying is the conscious choice layer is fully controlled by the physical layer. Ok but you make it sound like it is the end of it. But in fact the reverse is true as well: by executing a choice, the conscious layer changes the chain of cause-effects on the physical layer.

Heraclitusstudent says

The point: here different layers have different characteristics. The layer you use to look at a problem matters.

Heraclitusstudent says

What you say here is obvious and totally missed the point, which is that some concepts make sense only on certain layers.

[stupid comment limit]

And where in that did I say that the conscious layer is non-deterministic?
Never.

Heraclitusstudent says

This is what a layer is: an abstraction of the layers below it. And when I say "We make a choice" (which you now agree on) it's not something that is apparent if you look at the particle soup. It is something that is apparent only because we look at higher layer. And this is in fact the layer we consciously experience.

Heraclitusstudent says

So layers matter.

Heraclitusstudent says

I'll say it again: layers matter BECAUSE this is only way we can look at concepts like "choice", or "will", or "belief". We don't look at these concepts as a soup of atom. We couldn't understand them as soup of atoms. We experience them as something happening on a layer above the soup of atom. Therefore trying to discuss these as soup of atom is unlikely to produce any meaningful argument.

All this was said in the context that free will is meaningful in and only in your "higher layers". It's not, but if the "higher layers" created free will, they would have to violate the laws of nature. They cannot.

Heraclitusstudent says

And where in that did I say that the conscious layer is non-deterministic?

And where did I say that you said the conscious layer is non-deterministic?

Heraclitusstudent says

Dan8267 says

You have attempted to make the case that what you call layers create free will, and since free will violates the laws of nature, your layers would have to. That is why your argument is wrong.

Heraclitusstudent says

You can spend your life talking of a concept "ass boogers". If you can't even tell whether this concept is present or not, this is humongous waste of time.

Bullshit. I can tell the square root of two cannot be represented as the ratio of two numbers even thous I cannot tell what a universe in which it could be would be like. And that is the point I made. I never said that we cannot tell that free will does not exist. I have proven it does not. I said since free will completely contradicts causality, one could not extrapolate the properties of a universe in which free will exists. This is a point that you have not refuted and cannot refute.

Dan8267 says

You have attempted to make the case that what you call layers create free will, and since free will violates the laws of nature, your layers would have to . That is why your argument is wrong.

here.

Heraclitusstudent says

Dan8267 says

You have attempted to make the case that what you call layers create free will, and since free will violates the laws of nature, your layers would have to . That is why your argument is wrong.

here.

Honey, that statement doesn't imply that I am saying you said consciousness is non-deterministic. God, do I have to talk in terms of see Dick, see Jane?

Dan8267 says

I have proven it does not. I said since free will completely contradicts causality, one could not extrapolate the properties of a universe in which free will exists. This is a point that you have not refuted and cannot refute.

Except of course you said this is the definition of "ass boogers" that priests, pope and other people use, and they think they have it. No in fact they think they experience it, which is a stronger statement because no one can tell you that you are not experiencing what you are in fact experiencing.

If "ass boogers" doesn't exist, then what is it they experience?

Heraclitusstudent says

this is humongous waste of time.

Just like this thread. God's revenge on the atheists--He certainly has a sense of humor.

Dan8267 says

God

When did you become a believer?

Heraclitusstudent says

No in fact they think they experience it, which is a stronger statement because no one can tell you that you are not experiencing what you are in fact experiencing.

I can be certainly correct in stating that a person isn't experiencing what he thinks he's experience. If a person believes the government is using secret microwaves to control people's brains and that tin foil hat protects him, I can be quite confident that the person is not experiencing the government mind-control attempts he thinks he is.

Heraclitusstudent says

If "ass boogers" doesn't exist, then what is it they experience?

A delusion that they inflict upon themselves.

P N Dr Lo R says

When did you become a believer?

I haven't. I can still use expressions of speech.

Dan8267 says

Heraclitusstudent says

Dan8267 says

You have attempted to make the case that what you call layers create free will, and since free will violates the laws of nature, your layers would have to . That is why your argument is wrong.

here.

Honey, that statement doesn't imply that I am saying you said consciousness is non-deterministic. God, do I have to talk in terms of see Dick, see Jane?

Yes this statement implies that I tried to make the case that adding the notion the layers could somehow create freewill passing YOUR definition.
You can't even conceive that I try to make an argument for something different than YOUR definition.

Dan8267 says

Heraclitusstudent says

If "ass boogers" doesn't exist, then what is it they experience?

A delusion that they inflict upon themselves.

So you use their definition, and insist this is the right definition, while claiming they are deluded about what they are talking about.

Nice trick.

Heraclitusstudent says

Yes this statement implies that I tried to make the case that adding the notion the layers could somehow create freewill passing YOUR definition.

No it doesn't. And making that assertion doesn't make it true.

Heraclitusstudent says

So you use their definition, and insist this is the right definition, while claiming they are deluded about what they are talking about.

Dan8267 says

Heraclitusstudent says

We can debate endlessly on which definition is the right one.

The question is meaningless. There is no such thing as a right definition or a wrong definition. It's the meaning of statements that are either true or false.

You should stop repeating yourself. If you want to open a thread discussing the affects of consciousness on decision making, then do so. This thread is about the concept of free will as shown in the video of the original post. You are simply off topic.

Dan8267 says

If you want to open a thread discussing the affects of consciousness on decision making, then do so. This thread is about the concept of free will as shown in the video of the original post. You are simply off topic.

In other words "Anything outside my preconceived beliefs is simply off-topic and I don't want to discuss with you. ". "But I believe in truth. ".

Dan8267 says

You are simply off topic.

Well you're the one who started it, I expect they got bored.

Heraclitusstudent says

Dan8267 says

If you want to open a thread discussing the affects of consciousness on decision making, then do so. This thread is about the concept of free will as shown in the video of the original post. You are simply off topic.

In other words "Anything outside my preconceived beliefs is simply off-topic and I don't want to discuss with you. ". "But I believe in truth. ".

Bullshit. You are not even debating sincerely. The topic of this thread is clear. You are simply trying to play a game of bait and switch and I'm not falling for it. If you have nothing else to add the conversation, then simply stay silent.

Dan8267 says

Anything outside my preconceived beliefs

What he really means is anything, anything to keep it going...