patrick.net

"Has regulation..."

Of course it has. Nobody with half a brain can argue that the EPA hasn't significantly improved air quality, significantly reduced instances of large chemical spills, cleaned up old waste sites, etc. This is fact.

"Already stated, locals take care of their own problems, big government butts out. Have some belief in yourself, your neighbors, and your town. If you can't trust those people, what makes you think a bunch of suits, who are still just people, but are not from your town, and don't care how the water use to look, or how the air used to smell, will be more effective at combating pollution?"

You're living in a dream world. What deterrents can you, your neighbors, and your town wield to stop ABC chemicals from dumping into your local river that supplies water to the town.

bob2356 says

How can you be libertarian and support class action. Lawsuits go against everything libertarians stand for.

You may be right; however, libertarians are more against big business(which implies big government); outside of class action, what other recourse would a libertarian have?

NuttBoxer says

Already stated, locals take care of their own problems, big government butts out.

Ideally maybe, but lot of people in bumblefuck might not know how to take care of their own problems. Like agricultural runoff, contamination secondary to fracking. If assuming strictly libertarian approach, those resources may not get tapped at all.

MMR says

bob2356 says

How can you be libertarian and support class action. Lawsuits go against everything libertarians stand for.

You may be right

How do you figure?

MMR says

You may be right; however, libertarians are more against big business

In any practical sense In today's America libertarian is big business. Without wealthy big business ultra rich libertarians the libertarian movement would be nothing but a couple web pages that say mises.org. The libertarian movement was a very, very tiny fringe group up until the 70's mostly consisting of a handful of what were considered university crackpots. The ultra rich have since poured untold millions into creating the libertarian movement that now completely controls the government and has a literal army of thoroughly indoctrinated people promoting big business version of libertarianism even though it goes totally against their own interests. Most don't even know what they are saying, just mumbling their newspeak platitudes like acolytes at some cult.

The most ardent self proclaimed libertarians in the country are the koch brothers. David once ran as vice president on the libertarian party ticket. Do you suppose the hundreds of ultra rich that attend the koch brothers event twice a year are there just to grill some steaks and swap pics of the grand kids? Maybe they are planning how to raise the standard of living for the poor and middle class? Probably not. These people have very valuable and limited time yet they manage to keep 2 weeks free a year for this event. They expect a serious financial return on investment for their time spent there. Their only goal is to become more wealthy any way they can.

You can argue ivory tower ideologically pure theory all you want, but the bottom line is the ultra rich and big business are calling the libertarian shots.

joeyjojojunior says

Of course it has. Nobody with half a brain can argue that the EPA hasn't significantly improved air quality, significantly reduced instances of large chemical spills, cleaned up old waste sites, etc. This is fact.

Proof? Here's mine...

NuttBoxer says

joeyjojojunior says

You're living in a dream world. What deterrents can you, your neighbors, and your town wield to stop ABC chemicals from dumping into your local river that supplies water to the town.

Media campaign/bad publicity, lawsuits, physically bar the entrance to their factory, jail them for breaking local pollution laws.

It's sad you believer in a savior who's man, just like you, fallible, just like you, and excessively wasteful while producing poor results, hopefully unlike you.

MMR says

Ideally maybe, but lot of people in bumblefuck might not know how to take care of their own problems. Like agricultural runoff, contamination secondary to fracking. If assuming strictly libertarian approach, those resources may not get tapped at all.

They may not. So goes life. You can't save someone from themselves, ask any psychiatrist.

"Media campaign/bad publicity, lawsuits, physically bar the entrance to their factory, jail them for breaking local pollution laws. It's sad you believer in a savior who's man, just like you, fallible, just like you, and excessively wasteful while producing poor results, hopefully unlike you."

A savior? wtf are you talking about?

You somehow believe that it's impossible for a multi billion dollar corporation to buy off a local politician? How is it any different to have local people trying to regulate things other than them not having the time, people, expertise, or money?

NuttBoxer says

Proof? Here's mine...

Proof you are an idiot? That was a cleanup of abandoned by a mining company toxic waste that had a collapse in the mine while it was being pumped out. OMG there was one whole problem in cleaning up thousands of sites over 40 years. You probably have a worse safety record picking your nose. .

NuttBoxer says

Media campaign/bad publicity, lawsuits, physically bar the entrance to their factory, jail them for breaking local pollution laws.

Yea, that worked out so well for so many years that we had rivers so polluted they were catching fire.

joeyjojojunior says

"Really, so the EPA exists on who's dime? If you can't make the connection between backdoor deals and government agencies, then you'll never understand why the EPA doesn't give a shit about pollution."

OK, educate me. Show me the backdoor deals that connect the EPA to the government funding from completely separate agencies.

Crickets chirping, lots of crickets chirping.

The EPA put a dome on Springfield.

Enough said.

bob2356 says

OK, educate me. Show me the backdoor deals that connect the EPA to the government funding from completely separate agencies.

Not possible to educate someone who knows everything.

There is no backdoor deals necessary, the question is what is the cost of the EPA and what good have they done.

These mines were worked in a different time frame, so then in your mind the EPA comes into save the day in the present as if the mines were the oger. The mines are an anachronism.

Meanwhile the EPA and every other government agency cost ridiculous amounts of money while providing very questionable results.

E.G.:

Its annual budget is fairly modest in Beltway terms, at a little less than $11 billion, but that's not where the vast majority of its costs come from. Complying with EPA regulations costs the U.S. economy $353 billion per year — more than 30 times its budget — according to the best available estimate.

The noble EPA cost the economy 364 billion dollars EVERY year, do they provide 364 billion dollars worth of benefit? I think not, not even close.

What about the department of energy?

What about the subsidization of ethanol at a net cost to the taxpayer as ethanol takes more energy to produce than it gives.

As an added benefit the ogallala aquifer is being irreparable damaged to make ADM and others rich.

Added regulation or modified regulation? That's what's important in Bobby's mind.
A government apologist...

"In 1991, DENR provided its first assessment of acid rain in the United States. It reported that 5% of New England Lakes were acidic, with sulfates being the most common problem. They noted that 2% of the lakes could no longer support Brook Trout, and 6% of the lakes were unsuitable for the survival of many species of minnow.

Meanwhile, in 1989, the U.S. Congress passed a series of amendments to the Clean Air Act. Title IV of these amendments established the Acid Rain Program, a cap and trade system designed to control emissions of sulfur dioxide and nitrogen oxides. Title IV called for a total reduction of about 10 million tons of SO2 emissions from power plants. It was implemented in two phases. Phase I began in 1995, and limited sulfur dioxide emissions from 110 of the largest power plants to a combined total of 8.7 million tons of sulfur dioxide.

During the 1990s, research continued. On March 10, 2005, EPA issued the Clean Air Interstate Rule (CAIR). This rule provides states with a solution to the problem of power plant pollution that drifts from one state to another. CAIR will permanently cap emissions of SO2 and NOx in the eastern United States. When fully implemented, CAIR will reduce SO2 emissions in 28 eastern states and the District of Columbia by over 70% and NOx emissions by over 60% from 2003 levels.[28]

Overall, the program's cap and trade program has been successful in achieving its goals. Since the 1990s, SO2 emissions have dropped 40%, and according to the Pacific Research Institute, acid rain levels have dropped 65% since 1976.[29][30] Conventional regulation was used in the European Union, which saw a decrease of over 70% in SO2 emissions during the same time period.[31]

In 2007, total SO2 emissions were 8.9 million tons, achieving the program's long-term goal ahead of the 2010 statutory deadline.[32]"

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Acid_rain

And for Nutt--

How would a local neighborhood, municipality, or individual stop factories 1000 miles away from polluting the environment and causing acid rain to fall in your area? Boycott? Great--do you boycott every company that has a factory in the Midwest? How do you know which ones are emitting the NOX and SOX?

Jojo

Any relation to Jojo the circus boy?

The answer is the court system. As in class action law suits.

Central to that is private property and making the commons private. This is how you bring back endangered species.

indigenous says

The noble EPA cost the economy 364 billion dollars EVERY year, do they provide 364 billion dollars worth of benefit? I think not, not even close.

Proof other than it's true because I believe it should be true?

Feel free to look up the impact statement for any or all of epa's regulations. It's public record. It's reported to congress. There is a cost benefit analysis for every single regulation that costs more than 100 million. Ronald Reagan made that mandatory. The cost must not exceed the health and environmental benefit.

Mises.org didn't mention that? Shocking I tell you, simply shocking. I can't imagine why that would be skipped.

That makes sense, a report on chickens disappearing from the hen house by the fox.

The element that is missing from your fairy tale is called price discovery it isn't mentioned in any of your reports.

What branch of the government do you benefit from?

indigenous says

This is how you bring back endangered species.

yep, look at all the endangered species coming back in the cuyahoga circa 1969. It's amazing how well species come back in a pool of burning toxins.

indigenous says

That makes sense, a report on chickens disappearing from the hen house by the fox.

I'm not seeing the data you posted. It's true because I believe it should be true.

Another anachronism from Bobby... probably having nothing to do with endangered species

indigenous says

Another anachronism from Bobby... probably having nothing to do with endangered species

It's true because I believe it should be true.

bob2356 says

I'm not seeing the data you posted. It's true because I believe it should be true.

A devout follower of the scientific method, Keynes would be proud.

indigenous says

bob2356 says

I'm not seeing the data you posted. It's true because I believe it should be true.

A devout follower of the scientific method, Keynes would be proud.

I'm overwhelmed by all the support you have provided for your argument. It's so extensive it's just shocking.

It's true because I believe it should be true.

bob2356 says

I'm overwhelmed by all the support you have provided for your argument. It's so extensive it's just shocking.

Back at ya, I'm overwhelmed by all the verbiage you have provided as if that is the truth.

The point is that there is no price discovery for the "benefits" you extol. Clearly you benefit from the government.

"The answer is the court system. As in class action law suits"

Great--so who do I sue? There are probably 10K factories in the Midwest spewing NOX, SOX, CO into the atmosphere causing acid rain somewhere NE of there.

How do I get the data I need to prove that those factories emitted for the last 10 years? I'm sure they didn't test unless they had to and with no EPA, they wouldn't have to.

Lawyers figure it out they always do.

joeyjojojunior says

You somehow believe that it's impossible for a multi billion dollar corporation to buy off a local politician?

You somehow think that statement only applies to local politicians. Again, your savior central government is made up of supermen who are above reproach.joeyjojojunior says

How is it any different to have local people trying to regulate things other than them not having the time, people, expertise, or money?

Again, only people from far far away can know what's best for anytown USA. We all's some bumpkins in these haw parts! We needs fancy gum'ent masser's to tell us sickum from come here! Shucks, if we was to meet in ta town hall we might commence to pluckin chickens 'stead of figur'in out wat ta do 'bout that big compnia tha's making our water smell.

bob2356 says

Proof you are an idiot?

I see you didn't want to include the proof...

bob2356 says

That was a cleanup

So the EPA cleans up by just flushing everything into the nearby river. Isn't that what big corporations do.. wait, but the EPA is supposed to stop...

bob2356 says

OMG there was one whole problem in cleaning up thousands of sites over 40 years.

http://watchdog.org/234655/ga-epa-spill/

Nope, that one just has the best pictures.

bob2356 says

Yea, that worked out so well for so many years that we had rivers so polluted they were catching fire.

No dates, facts, or anything other than your opinion of rivers catching fire being tied to pollution the EPA would've stopped. Well shoot, that's enough evidence for me.

bob2356 says

OK, educate me. Show me the backdoor deals that connect the EPA to the government funding from completely separate agencies.

Crickets chirping, lots of crickets chirping.

Sorry, but this one was too easy, and I wanted to keep you guys on the hook for a while longer since your such big fans of MonsantoPA
http://www.naturalnews.com/042387_EPA_corrupt_officials_money_laundering.html

joeyjojojunior says

How would a local neighborhood, municipality, or individual stop factories 1000 miles away from polluting the environment and causing acid rain to fall in your area? Boycott? Great--do you boycott every company that has a factory in the Midwest? How do you know which ones are emitting the NOX and SOX?

Again, the power to do good rests solely with your Fed saviors, supermen we can never hope to surpass in intellect. Locals are far too stupid to take air samples, or use any of the other fancy tests the EPA has...

bob2356 says

yep, look at all the endangered species coming back in the cuyahoga circa 1969.

"No pictures of the 1969 fire are known to exist, as local media did not arrive on the scene until after the fire was under control."
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cuyahoga_River

Wow, you are the most blatant liar on Patnet, and that's saying something.

joeyjojojunior says

causing acid rain somewhere NE of there.

Really? I grew up in the Midwest well before any of these studies or regulations you mention, not once did acid rain ever get mentioned as a reality.

Whatever happened to Acid Rain? That claim has disappeared. I thought the reason is that it had more to do with ash from natural forest fires and rotting pine needles making mountain lakes and the upper soil more acidic. Esp. back in the day when there was a "Stop all forest fires" mentality.

They used to bang on it all the time when I was a kid in the 80s.

You know what else has almost disappeared from conversation? The Ozone Layer.

"Really? I grew up in the Midwest well before any of these studies or regulations you mention, not once did acid rain ever get mentioned as a reality."

I think you just weren't paying attention.

https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2002/07/020718075630.htm
http://gizmodo.com/after-decades-of-acid-rain-damage-northeastern-forests-1740571183
http://nadp.sws.uiuc.edu/educ/acidrain.aspx

"Whatever happened to Acid Rain? That claim has disappeared"

I just told you. The EPA happened. Title IV and Title V emissions standards on factories emitting SOx, NOx, CO. The reason you don't hear about it anymore is precisely BECAUSE of the EPA and its regulations.

"The Ozone Layer"

Again--thanks to regulations. Two success stories which never happen without regulatory bodies.

joeyjojojunior says

I just told you. The EPA happened. Title IV and Title V emissions standards on factories emitting SOx, NOx, CO. The reason you don't hear about it anymore is precisely BECAUSE of the EPA and its regulations.

Holy shit, you believe everything the government tells you?

https://debunkhouse.wordpress.com/2010/02/23/the-acid-rain-scam/

If you never saw it, don't remember relatives or friends ever having dealt with it, and these are people from the areas where it supposedly happened, then WTF are you talking about!? Does Uncle Sam sneak in through your bedroom window and ass rape you when you fail to meet your propaganda quota?

"Holy shit, you believe everything the government tells you?"

Yes, I believe scientists over some random blog that you posted.

"If you never saw it, don't remember relatives or friends ever having dealt with it, and these are people from the areas where it supposedly happened, then WTF are you talking about!? Does Uncle Sam sneak in through your bedroom window and ass rape you when you fail to meet your propaganda quota?"

wtf. It doesn't exist if I don't see it? Are you kidding me?

But just for you:
https://images.search.yahoo.com/search/images;_ylt=A0LEV0JASppYXlAA8p1XNyoA;_ylu=X3oDMTByMjB0aG5zBGNvbG8DYmYxBHBvcwMxBHZ0aWQDBHNlYwNzYw--?p=acid+rain+damage&fr=yfp-t