patrick.net

Dan8267 says

More evidence that religion rots brains. It's not something without extremely bad consequences, including in America today. No one would be foolish enough to believe in creationism if not for religion.

My example came out of YOUR field of work. You're so closed off to anything but hating God, you can't even see intelligent design when it's smacking you right in the face.

Dan8267 says

However, its followers have committed the greatest atrocities in all of human history and continue to do great harm to America today.

I'm gonna get right in your face and make you justify your BS position. What did believers of Jesus Christ ever do to YOU. Not humanity, not 500 years ago. YOU personally.

curious2 says

the empire lasted more than 1,000 years

That's actually a sad commentary on our own society. We may be farther along the continuum in our 200 plus years than it took Rome 1,000 years to attain--like maybe we're already at Rome's 800th year. I think most Romans would blush at the level of both heterosexual and homosexual promiscuity. What do you think a plague like AIDS would have meant for those so-far-advanced Romans? We have the benefits of modern science and medicine and AIDS is still incurable and subject to eternal permutations as different strains become immune to drugs. It's barely manageable, but at great expense and personal inconvenience. AIDS was first observed in 1981, 36 years ago. A person would have had to be about ten to be fully aware of AIDS and by 15 people were dying all around that same person in their mid-teens. Can you imagine, a person only 46 years old today can't remember a world without AIDS--in just one generation! Yet not one militant gay person in the 70's could have been convinced that what they were doing had the capacity to kill them, but in a few years they would be dying right and left. It was the level of promiscuity that finally gave the fragile virus, probabaly around for over 100 years, the proper environment to replicate and begin killing. The heterosexual promiscuity of the 70's, exemplified in such movies as 1976's Looking for Mr. Goodbar, the true story of a sexually insatiable young woman who gets herself killed, also gave us the plague of genital herpes that is incurable and often leads to anal/oral/penile cancers, Such things 200-300 years into the Roman empire would have killed it off by the 400th year because they would have had no idea what was causing the diseases nor the ability to cure them.

NuttBoxer says

Dan8267 says

However, its followers have committed the greatest atrocities in all of human history and continue to do great harm to America today.

I'm gonna get right in your face and make you justify your BS position. What did believers of Jesus Christ ever do to YOU. Not humanity, not 500 years ago. YOU personally.

Probably nothing, but still not a fair question. What did Muslims personally do to anyone on Patnet? Probably nothing. Not a reason to support the atrocities they practice on others.

Strategist says

We don't live in a Hitler, Stalin, or Mao country. We live in the 21st century America. Get real.

The price of freedom is eternal vigilance. Germany was one of the most enlightened civilizations in the early 20th century. They had a long history of scientific advancement and refined culture. Yet Germany decayed very quickly into Nazism. It is utter foolishness to think that there is something magical about the United States that makes it impervious to tyranny and atrocities. In fact, America's history is full of atrocities from genocide to slavery to apartheid to nuking noncombatant civilians, to lethal medical experiments on unsuspecting civilians to blatant election fraud to torture. The idea that America could not commit crimes against humanity is empirically false. You need to get real about history.

In any case, the moral question still stands even if you do not have the courage to answer it. If you cannot answer it, then your opinion should carry no weight. The same goes for Fort Wayne. So again, do you rape Jaycee to get her father to talk and save American lives?

If you set up a system in which "bad people" get tortured for the greater good of society, the people performing the torture won't have any qualms about torturing, including rape torturing, underaged girls, even toddlers to get what they want. Torturers don't have moral backbones. They don't draw lines. To them the ends always justify the means.

Strategist says

I would torture the dad, not the girl.

Cop-out. Let's say the dad doesn't talk or you don't have custody of him and cannot get custody of him in time. Do you torture the daughter to get him to tell you what you want?

Sounds like the answer is no, in which case you are admitting that torture should not be used unless you are absolutely certain of a person's guilt. This is not how it was applied in Gitmo or Abu Ghraib. You just want to pretend that the people deciding who gets torture never, ever make a wrong call. That's bullshit. Our country has executed at least two individuals who were utterly innocent beyond any doubt even unreasonable doubt. Our country has probably executed hundreds of innocent persons. So pretending that we've never tortured an innocent person is ridiculous.

And quite frankly, anyone who is OK with torturing an innocent person is no better than ISIS.

Dan8267 says

trategist says

We don't live in a Hitler, Stalin, or Mao country. We live in the 21st century America. Get real.

The price of freedom is eternal vigilance.

The only threat to our freedoms in this day and age is Islam. You talk about eternal vigilance, but ignore the threat from Islam.

Dan8267 says

Cop-out. Let's say the dad doesn't talk or you don't have custody of him and cannot get custody of him in time. Do you torture the daughter to get him to tell you what you want?

I would not torture someone i know is innocent. What's the point?
To answer your question directly. I would not torture or rape the daughter. We have to draw the line somewhere.

We can start by banning people from Salafi-Wahabi countries or countries where Salafi-Wahabis control large swaths of territory.

NuttBoxer says

Quite the opposite, people who go off half-cocked without taking the time to fully understand their systems beliefs usually commit heresy, and are therefore heretics.

This is a No True Scottsman argument. The left applies it to whitewash Islamic terrorism. The right applies it to whitewash atrocities and other evil actions committed by Christians.

Achmed the Muslim commits murder in the name of Islam because he believes his god demands the blood of the Jews. Larry the leftist then retroactively disassociates Achmed with Islam stating that Achmed could not be a true Muslim because the Quran explicitly states
1. None of you have faith until you love for your neighbor what you love for yourself.
2. Whoever wishes to be delivered from the fire and to enter Paradise should treat the people as he wishes to be treated.
3. None of you truly believes until he wishes for his brother what he wishes for himself.
4. None of you is a believer if he eats his full while his neighbour hasn’t anything.
5.Do unto all men as you would wish to have done unto you; and reject for others what you would reject for yourselves.
6. Hurt no one so that no one may hurt you.
7. There should be neither harming nor reciprocating harm.

And that's just a few examples.

So, by your criteria, no terrorist can be a Muslim by definition, and therefore no Muslim is a terrorist. 9/11, the Boston Marathon bombing, and ISIS have nothing to do with Islam. Sounds exactly what the wacky left says.

[stupid comment limit]

Similarly, the KKK has nothing to do with Christianity even though it is an organization made entirely of Christians who believe the dirty Jew killed their god and that the Christian god made the white man superior to all other races.

Hell, by your criteria Fort Wayne is not a Christian because he does not follow Jesus's teachings, particularly the parts about
1. Not throwing the first stone.
2. Love your neighbor as yourself.
3. Turn the other cheek.
4. Do good to those who hurt you.

So, Fort Wayne, do you accept NuttBoxer's assessment that you are not a Christian?

WaPoIsHitler Lipsovitch says

We can start by banning people from Salafi-Wahabi countries or countries where Salafi-Wahabis control large swaths of territory.

It would be a good start. Profiling and discriminating at times is necessary for our safety.
I would ban ALL religious Muslims from entering the country, and do everything to deport those already in the country. We don't need crazy people in this country.

NuttBoxer says

Sounds like the religion your really against is the religion of man, not God.

There is no religion of god. There are only the religions of man. That is not an opinion or value judgement. It is a fact.

No moral entity, nonetheless the embodiment of morality, would allow atrocities to be committed in his name.

NuttBoxer says

Dan8267 says

However, its followers have committed the greatest atrocities in all of human history and continue to do great harm to America today.

I'm gonna get right in your face and make you justify your BS position. What did believers of Jesus Christ ever do to YOU. Not humanity, not 500 years ago. YOU personally.

Nothing. The messenger is irrelevant. I've never been raped. I'm still against the legalization of rape. I've never been murdered. I'm still against the legalization of murder. I've never been tortured. I'm still against the legalization of torture.

You see, I have this psychological condition called empathy which allows me to value the lives of others. Either you get that or your don't. If you don't get that, there is nothing I can do to explain my worldview to you.

Strategist says

The only threat to our freedoms in this day and age is Islam

That is a foolish statement. Not only is Islam not the only threat to our freedoms, it is not even one of the major threats to our freedoms. The NSA is far more of a threat to your freedoms than any dumbass terrorist could ever be. Your entire prospective of the sizes of problems is all fucked up.

The U.S. federal government has far more capacity to torture and/or kill you and your family than Achmed over in Afghanistan does. The U.S. government has killed far more of its own citizens than all terrorists combined. The U.S. government does more every single day to restrict your rights and liberties than any rag head ever could.

If America is to ever fall, it will be from within.

Strategist says

I would not torture someone i know is innocent. What's the point?

Maybe you wouldn't, but they guy hired to do the actual torturing most certainly would. The points of torturing an innocent person are
1. You don't know if he or she is innocent, so err on the side of safety and torture away.
2. It can make other people talk.

If you support torturing anyone, then you in effect support torturing innocent persons even if that is not your intention. It is the inescapable consequence of your support of torturing anyone. That is why you should be against all torture. Christ, Strategist, look more than one move ahead. Acknowledge that there are unintended consequences of policies.

Dan8267 says

Would you rape Jaycee

Would you torture her? True, you'll have to know some history.

or her?

No. I would not torture Irma Grese or Ilse Koch. Would you? Would you rape them to get revenge?

I answered your question clearly and honestly. Answer mine clearly and honestly if you are not a coward.

Also, do you think Jesus Christ would approve of torturing either of your two examples or anyone else?

Are you saying that Jesus Christ is wrong and a pussy?

P N Dr Lo R says

heterosexual promiscuity

is the #1 STD vector by far. Most HIV infections occur in African countries including those that prohibit homosexuality entirely. By your "logic", lesbians are God's chosen people, because they are the least likely to become infected.

In America, Pat Robertson and other pseudo-Christians cut research funding, especially for STDs, specifically to maintain the believers' Stockholm Syndrome. PhRMA plays both sides on that field, so research $ goes into daily pills rather than cures. It's a bipartisan "good cop, bad cop": both sides are working for PhRMA, just differently. The Democrats promise to increase spending on the daily pills, while the Republicans cut research that would develop anything better.

The germ theory of disease began in ancient Greece and Rome. Christianity began as a cult of faith healers, and Constantine's imposition of Christianity had the effect of preventing progress on the germ theory of disease. For 1,000 years, Christian physicians resorted to bleeding people, and about the only thing bleeding was actually useful for was head injuries, where the ancient Greeks had learned to relieve pressure on the brain by drilling into the skull; the Christian bleeders might have been misapplying the technique due to not understanding the mechanism.

Among the tragedies of Christianity is the fact that people today are still dying at the same age as people in ancient Rome. We have had hardly any progress in extending healthy human lives, and research gets cut while STEM graduates languish. When your family and friends wither and die at the same age as their ancient Roman predecessors 2,000 years ago, blame religion for the lack of progress. The biggest philanthropists (e.g. Buffett, Gates) are atheist/agnostic, as are more than 90% of the scientists who make progress possible.

Related to this thread, the classic Dan thread Romans are pussies.

And not to put too fine a point on it, but nonviolence was kind of Jesus’ trademark. Kind of his big thing. To not follow that part of it is like joining Greenpeace and hating whales. There’s interpreting, and then there’s just ignoring.

It’s just ignoring if you’re for torture – as are more evangelical Christians than any other religion. You’re supposed to look at that figure of Christ on the cross and think, “how could a man suffer like that and forgive?” Not, “Romans are pussies, he still has his eyes.”

The acceptance, even promotion, of torture by Fort Wayne, Nutterbox, P N Dr Lo R, and other Christians demonstrates that the religion is not an effective advocate of morality.

Dan8267 says

Irma Grese

No, I wouldn't torture her, I'd hang her like she was ultimately disposed of. At her most attractive, she was ugly and 40ish because she was born in 1923 and never got a chance to be cute if she had been young in the 20's. The sad thing about Ilsa is that at least when she was young (born in 1906), she was a flapper and cute with bobbed hair and short skirts. The 40's ruined her and she got to live to be 61, which was a shame She should have been hanged as well. There is no real case for or against capital punishment in the New Testament, it has to be administered on a case by case basis. Our country executed Pvt. Eddie Slovik simply because he deserted under psychological stress, much of it because he was also 40ish and missed the 20's, which I think is a lot thinner cause than Ilsa's. However, he had to be made an example to prevent further desertion. I would have hanged Irma on general principles simply for her ugly hair style and frumpy clothes:

curious2 says

When your family and friends wither and die at the same age as their ancient Roman predecessors 2,000 years ago

it means they're being too sexually promiscuous. By the way, can you remember a world without AIDS?

curious2 says

Most HIV infections occur in African countries

This is explained and explored in Sexual Ecology by Gabriel Rotello for the fact that in Africa many heterosexual men leave their families to go to urban centers for employment, leaving behind wives. When they begin trafficking in prostitution (a la Rin), the exact same environment is created that allows the virus to propigate as that created by the gay culture in America.

Another lie that originated out of the sexual revolution in the early 90's as AIDS was beginning to be a huge political disaster was that well, it will soon break out in the larger population (hope, hope). A book was written in 1997 denying that, to huge outrage from the gay community, but passage of time has indeed proven that AIDS never did and never will break out in the larger population absent promiscuity.

P N Dr Lo R says

curious2 says

When your family and friends wither and die at the same age as their ancient Roman predecessors 2,000 years ago

it means they're being too sexually promiscuous.

No, some of the ancient Romans lived past 90, as few Americans do today. It means there's been too little progress in research since then.

P N Dr Lo R says

By the way, can you remember a world without AIDS?

As you wrote, the virus has been around for a long time, probably longer than a century. It originated in Africa, and spread due to travel. The first known American fatalities occurred in the 1950s. So, unless you're well over 100, you can't remember a world without AIDS.

Perhaps if there had been more research sooner, there might be more people around who could remember the world of more than 100 years ago. That's religion for you: as with the Taliban destroying the Buddhist statues in Afghanistan, and ISIL/Daesh destroying the Roman structures in Palmyra, they want to control history, and replace it with whatever fiction suits them. Curing disease, and enabling people to live long enough that they can actually remember the past and recognize charlatans selling the same garbage in a different language, progress doesn't suit the religious agenda. Charlatans prefer to maintain stagnation that they can control, rather than progress, which they cannot predict and thus cannot control.

curious2 says

So, unless you're well over 100, you can't remember a world without AIDS.

Then, apparently you can't because you know what I mean. It wasn't a death causing plague killing a specific community until 1981, but you know that. It's always someone else's fault rather than the fools who finally brought it into fruition with the proper environment. The term AIDS wasn't even coined until probably 1984 or 1983--it was called the "gay cancer" early on.

P N Dr Lo R says

I'd hang her like she was ultimately disposed of.

So you would violate your own god's commandments and morality. That proves my point that Christianity does not encourage morality.

Killing someone in order to defend others is sometimes necessary. It is never necessary to kill someone who has been captured and imprisoned. And it is never a moral decision to do so.

Morality Score
Atheists 1
Christians 0

Dan8267 says

Strategist says

The only threat to our freedoms in this day and age is Islam

That is a foolish statement. Not only is Islam not the only threat to our freedoms, it is not even one of the major threats to our freedoms. The NSA is far more of a threat to your freedoms than any dumbass terrorist could ever be.

Since when does the NSA execute cartoonists for drawing cartoons?
Since when does the NSA execute people over some blasphemy?
Since when does the NSA throw gays out of tall buildings?
WTF is wrong with you? Are you delusional?

Dan8267 says

That proves my point that Christianity does not encourage morality.

And guess what, I've finally gotten to be ad hominem and that's fine with me.

Strategist says

Since when does the NSA execute cartoonists for drawing cartoons?

I didn't say they did. But the NSA certainly does infringe upon people's rights including by violating wiretapping laws, activating cameras remotely, perving on teenage girls, and reducing the security of our information infrastructure.

All of human history has told one lesson: power corrupts especially if left unchecked. Only a fool would trust the NSA.

P N Dr Lo R says

that's fine with me.

You're still wrong. And you still demonstrate that Christianity does not encourage people to be moral or kind.

Dan8267 says

Strategist says

Since when does the NSA execute cartoonists for drawing cartoons?

I didn't say they did. But the NSA certainly does infringe upon people's rights including by violating wiretapping laws, activating cameras remotely, perving on teenage girls, and reducing the security of our information infrastructure.

Seems mild compared to what Islamists are capable of. Besides, most of those so called violations are necessary to protect us against Islamists. I'm all for it.

Strategist says

Seems mild compared to what Islamists are capable of. Besides, most of those so called violations are necessary to protect us against Islamists. I'm all for it.

As I've said, if America is to fall it will be from within.

Dan8267 says

You're still wrong.

No, Irma was dull and 40ish and got what she deserved. She should have had Hubba Hubba 1944 written on her forehead. They could have played a Frank Sinatra red Columbia, one with the slightly off-center spindle hole that made it even drearier, and that would have bored her to death instead of hanging.

Strategist says

Dan8267 says

So let's say that Jaycee's dad knows "something" that could save a lot of lives, a major terrorist attack, but he won't tell you even under torture. Would you rape Jaycee in front of him to get him to talk? That's the moral question.

My answer is hell no. What's yours?

I would torture the dad, not the girl.

So are you saying you would rape the dad and not the girl?

curious2 says

I'll close with an example. Neil Patrick harris is married, and the couple have two children. If "normalizing" that family looks like demographic suicide to you, then you are suffering from "theory induced blindness," and a backfire effect, so further comments from me would be a waste of time, causing you to dig in rather than open your eyes. I'll end with a photo:

They dress their son better than I dress myself.

Strategist says

We don't live in a Hitler, Stalin, or Mao country. We live in the 21st century America. Get real.

The belief that a Hitler, Stalin, or Mao could not rise in the 21st century is absolutely idiotic, foolish, and dangerous. Do you think that anyone expected a Hitler to rise in Germany back in the 1930s?

Dan8267 says

The belief that a Hitler, Stalin, or Mao could not rise in the 21st century is absolutely idiotic, foolish, and dangerous

These autocratic fantasies you dream up are truly terrifying in scope and ruthlessness!
You are hardly the first to recommend banning all religion from a society. Dictators from Stalin to Pol Pot have tried the same thing with tragic and horrific results. Usually they are atheists like yourself, and this is why atheists are trusted slightly less than child molesters. When there is no basis for morality, an individual may rationalize ANY act as not only permissible but right and mandatory. This has also been proven again and again. Religion may have been responsible for its share of zealots and their crimes, but it's been the one thing that cements people as a civilization and not a motley collection of barbarians each striving for individual pleasure. When nothing matters then nothing matters. I'm truly puzzled as to how you can't understand this basic concept. You seem smart enough in other areas.

@patrick seems like Dan is using the ad hominem thing here to escape an argument that is damaging to his thesis. I really don't see how it's ad hom? Or even an attack on him. It's just observation on the results of his autocratic fantasy.

CBOEtrader says

two children

The little boy is going to throw up when he looks back at that picture when he's 20 even if he were in a straight family.

Waitup says

Strategist says

Dan8267 says

So let's say that Jaycee's dad knows "something" that could save a lot of lives, a major terrorist attack, but he won't tell you even under torture. Would you rape Jaycee in front of him to get him to talk? That's the moral question.

My answer is hell no. What's yours?

I would torture the dad, not the girl.

So are you saying you would rape the dad and not the girl?

Yup. With a hammer.

Dan8267 says

Strategist says

We don't live in a Hitler, Stalin, or Mao country. We live in the 21st century America. Get real.

The belief that a Hitler, Stalin, or Mao could not rise in the 21st century is absolutely idiotic, foolish, and dangerous. Do you think that anyone expected a Hitler to rise in Germany back in the 1930s?

In N Korea, Middle East, Africa, we already have the Hitler types. But in America......no way. No one would vote for them.