patrick.net

"What would we lose if immigrants could no longer come to America? " why even propose such a silly question?

They should remove the cult of diversity bias against Asian students entering college if they want to help our young scientists. The proposed voucher system so a student can transfer to a better school and supporting homeschooling would also help.

Our education system is a wreck.

At my kids Elementary School they only have about 6-8 of the parents in the sciences. They have a science night, but I get badgered for trying to tell them the importance of Science by the liberal arts bunch whose parents socialize and attend Clinton Rallys and Academy awards viewing.

These unintelligent, and timewasting liberals dont like critical thinking, or sciences, or anyone that does, and they tell you how important the arts are.

Dumbocrats.

tovarichpeter says

83% of U.S. top science students are children of immigrants

They are stealing our technology! Wake up!

This is based on ONE contest held by a Corporate Think Tank - The National Foundation for Science Policy - with only 40 kids in the sample. The next annual event will be sponsored by a Pharma Company.

Here is their LEAD paragraph.

An impressive 83 percent (33 of 40) of the finalists of the 2016 Intel Science Talent Search, the leading science competition for U.S. high school students, were the children of immigrants. Moreover, 75 percent – 30 out of 40 – of the finalists had parents who worked in America on H-1B visas. That compares to 7 children who had both parents born in the United States. The science competition has been called the “Junior Nobel Prize.” These outstanding children of immigrants would never have been in America if their parents had not been allowed into the U.S.

Today, both the Trump administration and some members of Congress would like to impose new restrictions on legal immigration, including on high-skilled immigrants.

You'd don't need to be a Liberal Arts major or pass the New York State Academic Literacy Certification to realize the immediate thunderous great bias being presented here.

It then stridently continues to reach the opinion that H1-Bs are necessary based on 40 kids whose selection criteria is unknown. For example, what if they are all drawn from a few Silicon Valley neighborhood schools? If I held a similar contest in Des Moines, IA or Armonk, NY would I get 83% Foreign Born?

We landed on the moon and 90% of the people working on Apollo were Native-born Americans. Many from the Midwest.

This is just "Americans are dumb and lazy, so let's continue our high level of immigration"

More on the NFSP. Here is the author of the OP Forbes Article and the Executive Director, Stephen Anderson

Formerly of CATO where he was Director of Limitless Immigration propaganda.
https://www.cato.org/people/stuart-anderson

Board Members:
James Ziglar, Investment Banker and revolving door Executive at INS and for the Sec. of the Interior under "W". Massive Open Borders Advocate, multiple positions at a host of Industry Pro-Immigration "think tanks".
http://www.migrationpolicy.org/about/staff/james-w-ziglar
Richard Vedder, Economist who worked at the Independent Institute, which is Market Fundamentalist and was involved in a scandal re: Funding during Microsoft Anti-Trust Case
https://www.nytimes.com/library/tech/99/09/biztech/articles/18soft.html
Jagdish Bhagwati, World Famous Militant Globalist Neoliberal "Economist" who uses aggregate national figures to "prove" Neoliberal Free Trade "helps" everybody - by ignoring that almost all the gains in wealthy countries go to the wealthy, and that the developing poor become richer on the backs of the developed working class.
https://www.crunchbase.com/person/jagdish-bhagwati#/entity

CBOEtrader says

"What would we lose if immigrants could no longer come to America? " why even propose such a silly question?

They should remove the cult of diversity bias against Asian students entering college if they want to help our young scientists. The proposed voucher system so a student can transfer to a better school and supporting homeschooling would also help.

Our education system is a wreck.

The directives and the money from the federal level is all geared towards increasing women and black/hispanics in science. No one gives a shit about asians.

WaPoIsHitler Lipsovitch says

We landed on the moon and 90% of the people working on Apollo were Native-born Americans. Many from the Midwest.

This is just "Americans are dumb and lazy, so let's continue our high level of immigration"

In all fairness, if you look at the actual percentage of women, who're in STEM majors (outside of anything premed related), many are of immigrant, Asian or eastern European backgrounds.

For men, however, no such correlation can be made except for one thing. Many native born STEM men, leave the area for b-school or some other more lucrative or viable career path, upon discovering STEM is little more than cheap white collar labor for corporate & academic America..

As for myself, being native born (unless you consider the People's Republic of Cambridge-Stan MA to be another country outside of New England), I'd left STEM for finance, only to re-attempt to re-pursue STEM, as a retirement hobby than as a career.

No native born American male should be in STEM, unless it's a precursor to a career in Patents, Business, or pre-Health Care.

CBOEtrader says

The proposed voucher system so a student can transfer to a better school and supporting homeschooling would also help.

Limousine liberals who vote for welfare to keep coloreds on their side of tracks are the people most opposed to this voucher system.

Still, they like to claim that they care about the disadvantaged of the world more than republicans who are honest(assholish but honest) when they say "got mine, fuck your"

Ironically, the only good thing about Devos is the voucher system if it comes to fruition.

"Among the 40 finalists of the 2016 Intel Science Talent Search"

Seriously, these types of contests are a complete waste of time, esp if you want the Ivy admissions board to stereotype your kid as an Asian or Slavic (plus Persian [for those who don't know that Persians are white Asians]) nerd, who'll never make it in management consulting or financial services with the likes of a Chelsea Clinton or a Tiffany Trump.

Here's a cue for Asian kids ... start a variety show with some streaming content station for your hometown, That's the kind of stuff which will get you into Harvard Business School, not some Intel (formerly Westinghouse) crap.

"95% of winners of the Intel Science Talent Search (STS) traditionally have pursued science as a career, with 70% earning Ph.D.’s or M.D.’s."

Read that last bit ... "M.D.", in other words, the only place where one's exam scores can score a lifelong $200K+ career. The PhD, however, will either be a long term postdoc/adjunct professor, or will leave, for a career in IT, consulting, etc.

Rin says

STEM is little more than cheap white collar labor for corporate & academic America..

Most of the Indians who come here on an h1-b discourage their own children from pursuing STEM; still, when they fail to convince their kids to study medicine or dentistry, they encourage them to do STEM in lieu of business or law

Rin says

Seriously, these types of contests are a complete waste of time, esp if you want the Ivy admissions board to stereotype your kid as an Asian or Slavic (plus Persian [for those who don't know that Persians are white Asians]) nerd, who'll never make it in management consulting or financial services with the likes of a Chelsea Clinton or a Tiffany Trump.

Here's a cue for Asian kids ... start a variety show with some streaming content station for your hometown, That's the kind of stuff which will get you into Harvard Business School, not some Intel (formerly Westinghouse) crap.

"95% of winners of the Intel Science Talent Search (STS) traditionally have pursued science as a career, with 70% earning Ph.D.’s or M.D.’s."

Read that last bit ... "M.D.", in other words, the only place where one's exam scores can score a lifelong $200K+ career. The PhD, however, will either be a long term postdoc/adjunct professor, or will leave, for a career in IT, consulting, etc.

Ding ding ding ding ding

MMR says

Most of the Indians who come here on an h1-b discourage their own children from pursuing STEM; still, when they fail to convince their kids to study medicine or dentistry, they encourage them to do STEM in lieu of business or law

The thing is that even among Indians, along with neighboring countries, usually the STEM is only for the undergraduate degree for the 2nd/3rd generations. Afterwards, many still look at careers in finance, consulting, business, or law.

Those who stay in STEM, opt for managerial career tracks in-house or in peer companies.

MMR says

Ding ding ding ding ding

I'm working with an admission counselor, to get into a top 20 medical school and she told me all about this stuff.

The key is to package oneself as a 'rainmaker'. That's the secret to admissions.

If a school believe that in the future, you'll bring in the big donors and possibly, help launch a new wing or dept, you don't need a 4.0/45 MCAT. And if you have numbers anywhere close, instead of let's say a 5-10% chance of getting into Johns Hopkins, that percentage will shoot up to 75%, provided that you don't come across as psychotic during the interview.

tovarichpeter says

83% of U.S. top science students are children of immigrants

What do you expect when our government and corporations have been waging a War on STEM for the past 40 years through H1B Visas and outsourcing?

The way to get more Americans to enter STEM is to let STEM careers provide for both job security and high pay. Those two things are what determines whether or not people want to enter a field. Just look at manufacturing and agriculture. No America wants those jobs because they offer neither job security nor high pay. It is ridiculous to expect other people to want low paying jobs that have no job security, especially if the jobs are very difficult as STEM jobs are. Would you want to start a career in such a field? No. So why would anyone else?

You can bet that by the third generation, grandchildren of immigrants, STEM will no longer hold any appeal.

So it's basically a disinformation (this is what "fake news" used to be called in the olden times).

The 17% weren't brainwashed by their stupid Democratic & Republican parents.

Straw Man says

So it's basically a disinformation (this is what "fake news" used to be called in the olden times).

LIES is probably a better word.

My best students in AP Physics are always children of 1st generation immigrants which includes Europeans. Consequently, I've watched them get slighted non-stop by admissions when they clearly outperform 99% of the people admitted to Ivy League universities.

The same things happens in education. There is a true actual shortage of Physics teachers. They keep saying, we need to push more people into this field to fill that gap. Never say a god damned thing about pay. They expect someone to teach Physics and be paid the same amount as your English teacher. Therefore, the gap persists.

theoakman says

Consequently, I've watched them get slighted non-stop by admissions when they clearly outperform 99% of the people admitted to Ivy League universities.

The Ivies need to admit ppl like John Kerry and Al Gore, lazy bozos from well connected political families.

Remember, after Harvard undergrad, Gore had flunked out of Vanderbilt Law. I repeat ... F's on his finals, not D's. The dean tried to broker a deal with Senator Gore Senior, lazy Al's dad, for junior to submit a term paper so that the university could pass him, despite his abject failure as a law student. Al junior, being the lazy schmuck that he was, didn't even do that and is forever, a law school flunk out, who'd become Vice President of the United States.

WaPoIsHitler Lipsovitch says

held a similar contest in Des Moines, IA or Armonk, NY would I get 83% Foreign Born?

Armonk is headquarters for IBM

People in armonk are largely Jewish with wealth I. Line with Scarsdale

Rin says

The Ivies need to admit ppl like John Kerry and Al Gore, lazy bozos from well connected political families.

Correct. Also known as 'development admits'

Rin says

Al junior, being the lazy schmuck that he was, didn't even do that and is forever, a law school flunk out, who'd become Vice President of the United State

Lends credence to the myth of meritocracy

Dan8267 says

can bet that by the third generation, grandchildren of immigrants, STEM will no longer hold any appeal.

I generally am inclined to agree, but anecdotally, I am seeing lot of third generation Indian Americans in my family pursuing engineering if they are not interested in medicine

I am inclined to think these kids and their parents are kind of stupid

APOCALYPSEFUCK_is_ADORABLE says

How the fuck does someone flunk law school?

Did he show up?

Sloth and gluttony; I have a cousin who quit seton hall law school because she was being badgered by her parents to get married...once she found a keeper, she quit

Nice girl overall, but sloth and gluttony, coupled with a healthy dose of vapidity and entitlement reminiscent of a Jewish American princess (jap)

theoakman says

They expect someone to teach Physics and be paid the same amount as your English teacher. Therefore, the gap persists.

Ridiculous .... but true....obv physics is hard work

theoakman says

There is a true actual shortage of Physics teachers

I have a phd family friend who teaches physics ad a prestigious private school in Albuquerque

If he has a more dynamic personality I would tell him to do quant work for the money

theoakman says

Consequently, I've watched them get slighted non-stop by admissions when they clearly outperform 99% of the people admitted to Ivy League universities.

The problem is lot of these guys look exactly the same on paper . Also they tend to write personal statements about the topic of growing up in two different cultures and the pressure that no one else can actually relate to....I'm sure admission committees get annoyed to read that drivel over and over again.

Getting into Ivy League, requires some imagination...rin idea about streaming broadcast is the type of ingenuity that will separate from other Asian or Eastern European kid.

Top state schools like University of California for example have slightly different criteria and missions; even UC has gotten away from original mission in the name of stuffing coffers

My family immigrated from Norway. The mid-1800's I believe.

CBOEtrader says

What would we lose if immigrants could no longer come to America? " why even propose such a silly question?

The issue is ILLEGAL immigration....other than Iran, didn't see trump making big deal about countries like china and India, where the parents 'science superstars' actually come from

Helps to have parents who are scientists to help you complete projects or do them outright as well as access to labs to do projects/experiments

Rin says

a school believe that in the future, you'll bring in the big donors and possibly, help launch a new wing or dept, you don't need a 4.0/45 MCAT.

Fair enough, but you need to convince people that you've got such deep pockets. Seems like you have that part covered

I have cousins getting close to applying to college and they are getting advice that is about 179.9 degrees opposite

Fwiw if it was me, I'd be a lot closer to your admissions advisor with regard to advice doled out

MMR says

I have cousins getting close to applying to college and they are getting advice that is about 179.9 degrees opposite

Your cousins shouldn't even bother with the Ivy admissions game.

By virtue of checking that "Asian-American" box, they'll immediately be facing discrimination, never mind having to deal with the future Gores, Kerrys, Kennedys, and Trumps, as well as the offsprings of movie producers, faculty members, Olympic athletes, & any other "special" individuals. Your cousins will seldom be able to out perform any one of Angelina Jolie's kids, esp when the latter are Hollywood royalty.

If anything, your relatives should be doing the Univ of London distance program, using a few part-time US college courses to transfer in, to avoid getting slammed by the notion that "US high schools don't compute" in Britain.

Then, prepare judiciously to get first class honours, and then, they'll have a solid shot of getting into many stateside Ivy grad schools, along with British programs at London or Oxbridge.

MMR says

I have cousins getting close to applying to college

www.youtube.com/embed/5PXFKsGcRkY

MMR says

APOCALYPSEFUCK_is_ADORABLE says

How the fuck does someone flunk law school?

Did he show up?

Sloth and gluttony; I have a cousin who quit seton hall law school because she was being badgered by her parents to get married...once she found a keeper, she quit

Nice girl overall, but sloth and gluttony, coupled with a healthy dose of vapidity and entitlement reminiscent of a Jewish American princess (jap)

Believe it or not but law school is actually suppose to be hard.

It's not a place for a bozo like Gore, whose idea of doing work is shooting pool and smoking a joint.

Thus, the Gentleman's C doesn't really exist in law but Gore, being the snot that he was, couldn't even muster the Gentleman's D.

tovarichpeter says

83% of U.S. top science students are children of immigrants

Mostly Chinese, Indian, and Jews.

People from Iraq, Somalia, Sudan, Syria, Libya and Yemen, not so much.

Iran is an exception. Tons of stem people from Iran.

Dan8267 says

War on STEM for the past 40 years through H1B Visas and outsourcing?

I noticed a chance in early to mid 90s...prior to Y2k, not so much in 70s to 80s

Rin says

Your cousins shouldn't even bother with the Ivy admissions game.

By virtue of checking that "Asian-American" box, they'll immediately be facing discrimination, never mind having to deal with the future Gores, Kerrys, Kennedys, and Trumps, as well as the offsprings of movie producers, faculty members, Olympic athletes, & any other "special" individuals. Your cousins will seldom be able to out perform any one of Angelina Jolie's kids, esp when the latter are Hollywood royalty.

If anything, your relatives should be doing the Univ of London distance program, using a few part-time US college courses to transfer in, to avoid getting slammed by the notion that "US high schools don't compute" in Britain.

Then, prepare judiciously to get first class honours, and then, they'll have a solid shot of getting into many stateside Ivy grad schools, along with British programs at London or Oxbridge.

MMR, during these discussions with your younger relatives, please tell 'em about Al "the inventor of the internet" Gore and John "the intellectual" Kerry, and the fact that they got around in life due to the rich WASP families from which they were born into.

Realize, George W. Bush isn't the only Fortunate Son moron on the block.

Ironman says

hope they're going to community college the first two years, otherwise someone is throwing a lot of money away.

Lot of them are quite well off and many are skinflints

But they will all pay big bucks for brand name schools

In my family, community college is scoffed at, as is the idea of a high school graduation party or congratulating your kid for finishing high school...although people are slowly lightening up on latter

theoakman says

They expect someone to teach Physics and be paid the same amount as your English teacher. Therefore, the gap persists.

THIS. Any moron can teach English or Basic Algebra or Social Studies.

Few can teach Chemistry and Physics, and pay ought to reflect that.

But you bet the Union doesn't want that: A) Pay by Seniority and B) Gender Inequality since most women avoid Chemistry and Physics like the plague, esp. after HS.

WaPoIsHitler Lipsovitch says

But you bet the Union doesn't want that

Another good reasons to make public sector unions illegal.

rando says

WaPoIsHitler Lipsovitch says

But you bet the Union doesn't want that

Another good reasons to make public sector unions illegal.

Just homeschool the kids. With all the streaming content available these days, between Coursera, EdX, youtube, etc, there's no more need for ordinary K-12, unless your kid is NCAA bound with a lot of athletic talent.

MMR says

Dan8267 says

can bet that by the third generation, grandchildren of immigrants, STEM will no longer hold any appeal.

I generally am inclined to agree, but anecdotally, I am seeing lot of third generation Indian Americans in my family pursuing engineering if they are not interested in medicine

I think that's the exception to the rule. I read years ago, but can't find the material now, that the children of immigrants do better than native-born Americans in school, but that advantage doesn't propagate to the grandchildren of immigrants. The reasoning behind it was that immigrants pressure their children to perform better than their peers out of necessity, but the native born children of immigrants do not pressure their own children the same way.

MMR says

The issue is ILLEGAL immigration

Trump's orders do target Islamic immigration, legal or illegal. However, the real immigration issue is about how much immigration and what standards should we have, not how to make people follow legal procedures for immigration.