patrick.net

Rin says

The Ivies need to admit ppl like John Kerry and Al Gore, lazy bozos from well connected political families.

Correct. Also known as 'development admits'

Rin says

Al junior, being the lazy schmuck that he was, didn't even do that and is forever, a law school flunk out, who'd become Vice President of the United State

Lends credence to the myth of meritocracy

Dan8267 says

can bet that by the third generation, grandchildren of immigrants, STEM will no longer hold any appeal.

I generally am inclined to agree, but anecdotally, I am seeing lot of third generation Indian Americans in my family pursuing engineering if they are not interested in medicine

I am inclined to think these kids and their parents are kind of stupid

APOCALYPSEFUCK_is_ADORABLE says

How the fuck does someone flunk law school?

Did he show up?

Sloth and gluttony; I have a cousin who quit seton hall law school because she was being badgered by her parents to get married...once she found a keeper, she quit

Nice girl overall, but sloth and gluttony, coupled with a healthy dose of vapidity and entitlement reminiscent of a Jewish American princess (jap)

theoakman says

They expect someone to teach Physics and be paid the same amount as your English teacher. Therefore, the gap persists.

Ridiculous .... but true....obv physics is hard work

theoakman says

There is a true actual shortage of Physics teachers

I have a phd family friend who teaches physics ad a prestigious private school in Albuquerque

If he has a more dynamic personality I would tell him to do quant work for the money

theoakman says

Consequently, I've watched them get slighted non-stop by admissions when they clearly outperform 99% of the people admitted to Ivy League universities.

The problem is lot of these guys look exactly the same on paper . Also they tend to write personal statements about the topic of growing up in two different cultures and the pressure that no one else can actually relate to....I'm sure admission committees get annoyed to read that drivel over and over again.

Getting into Ivy League, requires some imagination...rin idea about streaming broadcast is the type of ingenuity that will separate from other Asian or Eastern European kid.

Top state schools like University of California for example have slightly different criteria and missions; even UC has gotten away from original mission in the name of stuffing coffers

My family immigrated from Norway. The mid-1800's I believe.

CBOEtrader says

What would we lose if immigrants could no longer come to America? " why even propose such a silly question?

The issue is ILLEGAL immigration....other than Iran, didn't see trump making big deal about countries like china and India, where the parents 'science superstars' actually come from

Helps to have parents who are scientists to help you complete projects or do them outright as well as access to labs to do projects/experiments

Rin says

a school believe that in the future, you'll bring in the big donors and possibly, help launch a new wing or dept, you don't need a 4.0/45 MCAT.

Fair enough, but you need to convince people that you've got such deep pockets. Seems like you have that part covered

I have cousins getting close to applying to college and they are getting advice that is about 179.9 degrees opposite

Fwiw if it was me, I'd be a lot closer to your admissions advisor with regard to advice doled out

MMR says

I have cousins getting close to applying to college and they are getting advice that is about 179.9 degrees opposite

Your cousins shouldn't even bother with the Ivy admissions game.

By virtue of checking that "Asian-American" box, they'll immediately be facing discrimination, never mind having to deal with the future Gores, Kerrys, Kennedys, and Trumps, as well as the offsprings of movie producers, faculty members, Olympic athletes, & any other "special" individuals. Your cousins will seldom be able to out perform any one of Angelina Jolie's kids, esp when the latter are Hollywood royalty.

If anything, your relatives should be doing the Univ of London distance program, using a few part-time US college courses to transfer in, to avoid getting slammed by the notion that "US high schools don't compute" in Britain.

Then, prepare judiciously to get first class honours, and then, they'll have a solid shot of getting into many stateside Ivy grad schools, along with British programs at London or Oxbridge.

MMR says

I have cousins getting close to applying to college

www.youtube.com/embed/5PXFKsGcRkY

MMR says

APOCALYPSEFUCK_is_ADORABLE says

How the fuck does someone flunk law school?

Did he show up?

Sloth and gluttony; I have a cousin who quit seton hall law school because she was being badgered by her parents to get married...once she found a keeper, she quit

Nice girl overall, but sloth and gluttony, coupled with a healthy dose of vapidity and entitlement reminiscent of a Jewish American princess (jap)

Believe it or not but law school is actually suppose to be hard.

It's not a place for a bozo like Gore, whose idea of doing work is shooting pool and smoking a joint.

Thus, the Gentleman's C doesn't really exist in law but Gore, being the snot that he was, couldn't even muster the Gentleman's D.

tovarichpeter says

83% of U.S. top science students are children of immigrants

Mostly Chinese, Indian, and Jews.

People from Iraq, Somalia, Sudan, Syria, Libya and Yemen, not so much.

Iran is an exception. Tons of stem people from Iran.

Dan8267 says

War on STEM for the past 40 years through H1B Visas and outsourcing?

I noticed a chance in early to mid 90s...prior to Y2k, not so much in 70s to 80s

Rin says

Your cousins shouldn't even bother with the Ivy admissions game.

By virtue of checking that "Asian-American" box, they'll immediately be facing discrimination, never mind having to deal with the future Gores, Kerrys, Kennedys, and Trumps, as well as the offsprings of movie producers, faculty members, Olympic athletes, & any other "special" individuals. Your cousins will seldom be able to out perform any one of Angelina Jolie's kids, esp when the latter are Hollywood royalty.

If anything, your relatives should be doing the Univ of London distance program, using a few part-time US college courses to transfer in, to avoid getting slammed by the notion that "US high schools don't compute" in Britain.

Then, prepare judiciously to get first class honours, and then, they'll have a solid shot of getting into many stateside Ivy grad schools, along with British programs at London or Oxbridge.

MMR, during these discussions with your younger relatives, please tell 'em about Al "the inventor of the internet" Gore and John "the intellectual" Kerry, and the fact that they got around in life due to the rich WASP families from which they were born into.

Realize, George W. Bush isn't the only Fortunate Son moron on the block.

Ironman says

hope they're going to community college the first two years, otherwise someone is throwing a lot of money away.

Lot of them are quite well off and many are skinflints

But they will all pay big bucks for brand name schools

In my family, community college is scoffed at, as is the idea of a high school graduation party or congratulating your kid for finishing high school...although people are slowly lightening up on latter

theoakman says

They expect someone to teach Physics and be paid the same amount as your English teacher. Therefore, the gap persists.

THIS. Any moron can teach English or Basic Algebra or Social Studies.

Few can teach Chemistry and Physics, and pay ought to reflect that.

But you bet the Union doesn't want that: A) Pay by Seniority and B) Gender Inequality since most women avoid Chemistry and Physics like the plague, esp. after HS.

WaPoIsHitler Lipsovitch says

But you bet the Union doesn't want that

Another good reasons to make public sector unions illegal.

rando says

WaPoIsHitler Lipsovitch says

But you bet the Union doesn't want that

Another good reasons to make public sector unions illegal.

Just homeschool the kids. With all the streaming content available these days, between Coursera, EdX, youtube, etc, there's no more need for ordinary K-12, unless your kid is NCAA bound with a lot of athletic talent.

MMR says

Dan8267 says

can bet that by the third generation, grandchildren of immigrants, STEM will no longer hold any appeal.

I generally am inclined to agree, but anecdotally, I am seeing lot of third generation Indian Americans in my family pursuing engineering if they are not interested in medicine

I think that's the exception to the rule. I read years ago, but can't find the material now, that the children of immigrants do better than native-born Americans in school, but that advantage doesn't propagate to the grandchildren of immigrants. The reasoning behind it was that immigrants pressure their children to perform better than their peers out of necessity, but the native born children of immigrants do not pressure their own children the same way.

MMR says

The issue is ILLEGAL immigration

Trump's orders do target Islamic immigration, legal or illegal. However, the real immigration issue is about how much immigration and what standards should we have, not how to make people follow legal procedures for immigration.

Dan8267 says

orders do target Islamic immigration, legal or illegal. However, the real immigration issue is about how much immigration and what standards should we have, not how to make people follow legal procedures for immigration.

Other than Iran, the other counties are irrelevant to this article, which presumes that by limiting immigration, we are losing scientists and future scientists.

Immigration from Central America or remaining countries that are subject to travel ban will have virtually no effect on who does the intel science competition.

Trump has no problem with immigration from India and China

Dan8267 says

that the children of immigrants do better than native-born Americans in school, but that advantage doesn't propagate to the grandchildren of immigrants. The reasoning behind it was that immigrants pressure their children to perform better than their peers out of necessity, but the native born children of immigrants do not pressure their own children the same way.

The engineers of this generation behind me are mostly considered slackers compared to those who do medicine. Most of the kids who got into Med school got into accelerated BA/MD programs and those not interested are pursuing engineering or computer science

Dan8267 says

that advantage doesn't propagate to the grandchildren of immigrants. The reasoning behind it was that immigrants pressure their children to perform better than their peers out of necessity,

I think there are a lot of globalists in my family and that realization that creates a mentality of scarcity and subsequent pressure to compete

Rin says

homeschool the kids. With all the streaming content available these days, between Coursera, EdX, youtube, etc, there's no more need for ordinary K-12, unless your kid is NCAA bound with a lot of athletic talent.

Even the latter category could conceivably be educated that way although California wouldn't permit it. If one wanted to go homeschool route it could conceivably be done by enrolling in private school, some of which have online education options.

In many states the kids would participate in school which neighborhood is zoned to

For example, if someone wanted to do figure skating or tennis, it's pretty much a given that an 8-3 class schedule is a hindrance.

Probably it is a hindrance to other sports as well

Although kids in team sports probably prefer to be in school because that is where their friends are.

Dan8267 says

The reasoning behind it was that immigrants pressure their children to perform better than their peers out of necessity, but the native born children of immigrants do not pressure their own children the same way.

This is what leads to the lack of inheritance and inability to go from new money to old money. Old money is less likely to spend in a tacky way, invest wisely and exhibit patience and discipline.

The first key to investing after all, is to have money available for investment

Getting into universities is a political act, not an act of merit. The merit is window dressing and an entirely relative, movable feast. Also, cheating is rampant. I knew a guy who bragged to me about getting into a Harvard professional school on forged transcripts. He continued on to practice just fine and dandy throughout his career.

Kids should not be shamed that somehow these admissions are about demonstrable or inherent judged merit. Even many very smart people are incredibly fungible, it is only the TRULY rare exceptional who are not.

They should probably only admit kids from farming families, because farmers know that life is about working from morning until night. Commitment and hard work are far more valuable than bullshit paper merit.

I am a lazy butthole because I was a suburban military brat, no matter what the high testing.

Ironman says

Well, it's definitely 13th grade, but considering how many (especially boys) fuck off the first year and get 1.0 GPA's, it's better to throw away a few grand in community college versus $20K at a state school (unless the parents like burning through that money and have nothing to show for for it)

I was an example of someone who fits that description roughly. I would have benefited from at least commuting from home if not going to community college.

There are a couple of fuck ups and some slackers but the vast majority are groomed successfully to be hard driving

I'm provably the only one who would even put the community college thing out there. Some of the skinflints also don't believe in breaking bank on education even though they probably have millions in liquid assets

But others, while still of flinty skin and high liquidity , will splurge on education and be careful on everything else

Out of all my relatives, I'm one of the few that ever had a student loan balance. I can also say that it wasn't worth it in my case

Ceffer says

Even many very smart people are incredibly fungible, it only the TRULY rare exceptional who are not.

That's why I say Med school and residency is overrated. I don't really brad about it because it isn't a bragging worthy subject. A lot of things and circumstances had to be ideal for me to get through medical school and into a residency.

I mean, sure it is hard work and a good amount of pressure

But I really don't see that many from a poor and disadvantaged background being able to do it anymore

Ceffer says

Getting into universities is a political act, not an act of merit. The merit is window dressing and an entirely relative, movable feast. Also, cheating is rampant. I knew a guy who bragged to me about getting into a Harvard professional school on forged transcripts. He continued on to practice just fine and dandy throughout his career.

My senior partner, who was dean's list at both, Columbia and Penn, got a 2:2, meaning lower half of second class honours, a.k.a a 'B' average, at the Univ of London's LLM program at UCL. In other words, the American Ivies were grade inflated but the equivalent Ivy-like postgraduate law school in Britain wasn't.

And you know what, perhaps that means that there's some merit left in the world, albeit, shrinking by the generation.

And BTW, this guy could punk either John Kerry or Al Gore. He's not a genius but he isn't a dumbass either.

MMR says

theoakman says

Consequently, I've watched them get slighted non-stop by admissions when they clearly outperform 99% of the people admitted to Ivy League universities.

The problem is lot of these guys look exactly the same on paper . Also they tend to write personal statements about the topic of growing up in two different cultures and the pressure that no one else can actually relate to....I'm sure admission committees get annoyed to read that drivel over and over again.

Getting into Ivy League, requires some imagination...rin idea about streaming broadcast is the type of ingenuity that will separate from other Asian or Eastern European kid.

Top state schools like University of California for example have slightly different criteria and missions; even UC has gotten away from original mission in the name of stuffing coffers

They don't though. I have pretty much taught at the two top public schools in New Jersey. My very best students have had legitimate claims to top student in the state...and in one instance the country. My very best asian students have had the most impressive resumes and were bigger standouts than anyone in several areas. Ivy League universities actively discriminate against them. Hell, they openly do it and still won in court when the asians tried to sue them. I can say this though, Carnegie Melon university were very smart and realized the talent pool within the town and has since accepted dozens of them. I always told them, it doesn't matter, because they are destined for success anyway. But it's really annoying to watch your best talent get slighted while someone who's ranked 200 in the class be the only one admitted into Columbia because she is 1/4 hispanic.

theoakman says

My very best students have had legitimate claims to top student in the state...and in one instance the country. My very best asian students have had the most impressive resumes and were bigger standouts than anyone in several areas. Ivy League universities actively discriminate against them.

If they were Asian, but had come from families who were partners at various sovereign funds from Singapore to Seoul, they'd be highly sought after by elite colleges for undergraduate studies.

When I was in graduate school in Chemistry, 50% of the students were from China/Korea. 20% were from various Eastern European countries. About 5% were hispanic, mostly from Puerto Rico. No one was from Africa. I did know one guy in Physics from Iran. The hysterics that limiting immigration hurts us is nonsense. A lot of the foreigners that come into our grad schools attend it on our own federal grants then go back to their native country. It's a net loss for the country.

Rin says

theoakman says

My very best students have had legitimate claims to top student in the state...and in one instance the country. My very best asian students have had the most impressive resumes and were bigger standouts than anyone in several areas. Ivy League universities actively discriminate against them.

If they were Asian, but had come from families who were partners at various sovereign funds from Singapore to Seoul, they'd be highly sought after by elite colleges for undergraduate studies.

The private school I live 3 blocks away from is Lawrenceville NJ costs 50k a year. 30% of their class goes to Princeton. None of them are all that smart. It's simply a test to see how much money their parents are willing to toss around.

BTW, I'd taken two courses at Harvard College during the day as a special student and got two A's, BFD.

Seriously, if everyone there was Issac Newton, I wouldn't have scored in the top sector of the classes w/o having studied nearly 7x24.

I'd have been fighting against ppl with photographic memories and 200 IQs, who probably didn't even need to attend college to begin with.

I have seen students stress about getting into Stanford. They have a dumasses Princeton-like private junior college for the wealthy in Menlo Park that guarantees admission into Stanford upper division.

One trust fund rich kid I knew in the day was admitted to Stanford legacy, played bridge and took bowling classes, was proud that he scraped by on gentleman "C". He went high up in the State Department. One of my fraternity bros, on merit and with extensive additional graduate studies with degrees from both Harvard, Stanford, and some international schools, went just slightly higher and became an ambassador (to a couple of countries, not just in title).

Ceffer says

One trust fund rich kid I knew in the day was admitted to Stanford legacy, played bridge and took bowling classes, was proud that he scraped by on gentleman "C". He went high up in the State Department. One of my fraternity bros, on merit and with extensive additional graduate studies with degrees from both Harvard, Stanford, and some international schools, went just slightly higher and became an ambassador (to a couple of countries, not just in title).

All true, except that it's a Gentleman's "B-" nowadays.

There's little true vis-a-vis merit at Ivy like schools in America.

At the University of London, a 70% on the final exam is an 'A' or a 'First'. My senior partner, never got a single one, during his studies abroad. He said that everyone there, esp the students from former Commonwealth nations like Hong Kong/Singapore, were always prepped ahead of time and were simply honing their skills in class. Over there, an 'A' was really an 'A'.

Despite having it relatively easy at Columbia/Penn, he simply didn't have that extra mojo which the other scholars at UoL had. I suppose he could have spent the time to develop those skills but cmon, the West End of London was simply too much fun.

MMR says

In my family, community college is scoffed at, as is the idea of a high school graduation party or congratulating your kid for finishing high school...although people are slowly lightening up on latter

Finishing high school is not considered an achievement by Asian families.

Dan8267 says

What do you expect when our government and corporations have been waging a War on STEM for the past 40 years through H1B Visas and outsourcing?

The way to get more Americans to enter STEM is to let STEM careers provide for both job security and high pay. Those two things are what determines whether or not people want to enter a field.

WTF. STEM is high paying with job security.
Todays kids don't want to do hard work, and complain a lot. They are not punished enough, and their parents don't push them hard enough.