patrick.net

CBOEtrader says

What would we lose if immigrants could no longer come to America? " why even propose such a silly question?

The issue is ILLEGAL immigration....other than Iran, didn't see trump making big deal about countries like china and India, where the parents 'science superstars' actually come from

Helps to have parents who are scientists to help you complete projects or do them outright as well as access to labs to do projects/experiments

Rin says

a school believe that in the future, you'll bring in the big donors and possibly, help launch a new wing or dept, you don't need a 4.0/45 MCAT.

Fair enough, but you need to convince people that you've got such deep pockets. Seems like you have that part covered

I have cousins getting close to applying to college and they are getting advice that is about 179.9 degrees opposite

Fwiw if it was me, I'd be a lot closer to your admissions advisor with regard to advice doled out

MMR says

I have cousins getting close to applying to college and they are getting advice that is about 179.9 degrees opposite

Your cousins shouldn't even bother with the Ivy admissions game.

By virtue of checking that "Asian-American" box, they'll immediately be facing discrimination, never mind having to deal with the future Gores, Kerrys, Kennedys, and Trumps, as well as the offsprings of movie producers, faculty members, Olympic athletes, & any other "special" individuals. Your cousins will seldom be able to out perform any one of Angelina Jolie's kids, esp when the latter are Hollywood royalty.

If anything, your relatives should be doing the Univ of London distance program, using a few part-time US college courses to transfer in, to avoid getting slammed by the notion that "US high schools don't compute" in Britain.

Then, prepare judiciously to get first class honours, and then, they'll have a solid shot of getting into many stateside Ivy grad schools, along with British programs at London or Oxbridge.

MMR says

I have cousins getting close to applying to college

www.youtube.com/embed/5PXFKsGcRkY

MMR says

APOCALYPSEFUCK_is_ADORABLE says

How the fuck does someone flunk law school?

Did he show up?

Sloth and gluttony; I have a cousin who quit seton hall law school because she was being badgered by her parents to get married...once she found a keeper, she quit

Nice girl overall, but sloth and gluttony, coupled with a healthy dose of vapidity and entitlement reminiscent of a Jewish American princess (jap)

Believe it or not but law school is actually suppose to be hard.

It's not a place for a bozo like Gore, whose idea of doing work is shooting pool and smoking a joint.

Thus, the Gentleman's C doesn't really exist in law but Gore, being the snot that he was, couldn't even muster the Gentleman's D.

tovarichpeter says

83% of U.S. top science students are children of immigrants

Mostly Chinese, Indian, and Jews.

People from Iraq, Somalia, Sudan, Syria, Libya and Yemen, not so much.

Iran is an exception. Tons of stem people from Iran.

Dan8267 says

War on STEM for the past 40 years through H1B Visas and outsourcing?

I noticed a chance in early to mid 90s...prior to Y2k, not so much in 70s to 80s

Rin says

Your cousins shouldn't even bother with the Ivy admissions game.

By virtue of checking that "Asian-American" box, they'll immediately be facing discrimination, never mind having to deal with the future Gores, Kerrys, Kennedys, and Trumps, as well as the offsprings of movie producers, faculty members, Olympic athletes, & any other "special" individuals. Your cousins will seldom be able to out perform any one of Angelina Jolie's kids, esp when the latter are Hollywood royalty.

If anything, your relatives should be doing the Univ of London distance program, using a few part-time US college courses to transfer in, to avoid getting slammed by the notion that "US high schools don't compute" in Britain.

Then, prepare judiciously to get first class honours, and then, they'll have a solid shot of getting into many stateside Ivy grad schools, along with British programs at London or Oxbridge.

MMR, during these discussions with your younger relatives, please tell 'em about Al "the inventor of the internet" Gore and John "the intellectual" Kerry, and the fact that they got around in life due to the rich WASP families from which they were born into.

Realize, George W. Bush isn't the only Fortunate Son moron on the block.

Ironman says

hope they're going to community college the first two years, otherwise someone is throwing a lot of money away.

Lot of them are quite well off and many are skinflints

But they will all pay big bucks for brand name schools

In my family, community college is scoffed at, as is the idea of a high school graduation party or congratulating your kid for finishing high school...although people are slowly lightening up on latter

theoakman says

They expect someone to teach Physics and be paid the same amount as your English teacher. Therefore, the gap persists.

THIS. Any moron can teach English or Basic Algebra or Social Studies.

Few can teach Chemistry and Physics, and pay ought to reflect that.

But you bet the Union doesn't want that: A) Pay by Seniority and B) Gender Inequality since most women avoid Chemistry and Physics like the plague, esp. after HS.

WaPoIsHitler Lipsovitch says

But you bet the Union doesn't want that

Another good reasons to make public sector unions illegal.

rando says

WaPoIsHitler Lipsovitch says

But you bet the Union doesn't want that

Another good reasons to make public sector unions illegal.

Just homeschool the kids. With all the streaming content available these days, between Coursera, EdX, youtube, etc, there's no more need for ordinary K-12, unless your kid is NCAA bound with a lot of athletic talent.

MMR says

Dan8267 says

can bet that by the third generation, grandchildren of immigrants, STEM will no longer hold any appeal.

I generally am inclined to agree, but anecdotally, I am seeing lot of third generation Indian Americans in my family pursuing engineering if they are not interested in medicine

I think that's the exception to the rule. I read years ago, but can't find the material now, that the children of immigrants do better than native-born Americans in school, but that advantage doesn't propagate to the grandchildren of immigrants. The reasoning behind it was that immigrants pressure their children to perform better than their peers out of necessity, but the native born children of immigrants do not pressure their own children the same way.

MMR says

The issue is ILLEGAL immigration

Trump's orders do target Islamic immigration, legal or illegal. However, the real immigration issue is about how much immigration and what standards should we have, not how to make people follow legal procedures for immigration.

Dan8267 says

orders do target Islamic immigration, legal or illegal. However, the real immigration issue is about how much immigration and what standards should we have, not how to make people follow legal procedures for immigration.

Other than Iran, the other counties are irrelevant to this article, which presumes that by limiting immigration, we are losing scientists and future scientists.

Immigration from Central America or remaining countries that are subject to travel ban will have virtually no effect on who does the intel science competition.

Trump has no problem with immigration from India and China

Dan8267 says

that the children of immigrants do better than native-born Americans in school, but that advantage doesn't propagate to the grandchildren of immigrants. The reasoning behind it was that immigrants pressure their children to perform better than their peers out of necessity, but the native born children of immigrants do not pressure their own children the same way.

The engineers of this generation behind me are mostly considered slackers compared to those who do medicine. Most of the kids who got into Med school got into accelerated BA/MD programs and those not interested are pursuing engineering or computer science

Dan8267 says

that advantage doesn't propagate to the grandchildren of immigrants. The reasoning behind it was that immigrants pressure their children to perform better than their peers out of necessity,

I think there are a lot of globalists in my family and that realization that creates a mentality of scarcity and subsequent pressure to compete

Rin says

homeschool the kids. With all the streaming content available these days, between Coursera, EdX, youtube, etc, there's no more need for ordinary K-12, unless your kid is NCAA bound with a lot of athletic talent.

Even the latter category could conceivably be educated that way although California wouldn't permit it. If one wanted to go homeschool route it could conceivably be done by enrolling in private school, some of which have online education options.

In many states the kids would participate in school which neighborhood is zoned to

For example, if someone wanted to do figure skating or tennis, it's pretty much a given that an 8-3 class schedule is a hindrance.

Probably it is a hindrance to other sports as well

Although kids in team sports probably prefer to be in school because that is where their friends are.

Dan8267 says

The reasoning behind it was that immigrants pressure their children to perform better than their peers out of necessity, but the native born children of immigrants do not pressure their own children the same way.

This is what leads to the lack of inheritance and inability to go from new money to old money. Old money is less likely to spend in a tacky way, invest wisely and exhibit patience and discipline.

The first key to investing after all, is to have money available for investment

Getting into universities is a political act, not an act of merit. The merit is window dressing and an entirely relative, movable feast. Also, cheating is rampant. I knew a guy who bragged to me about getting into a Harvard professional school on forged transcripts. He continued on to practice just fine and dandy throughout his career.

Kids should not be shamed that somehow these admissions are about demonstrable or inherent judged merit. Even many very smart people are incredibly fungible, it is only the TRULY rare exceptional who are not.

They should probably only admit kids from farming families, because farmers know that life is about working from morning until night. Commitment and hard work are far more valuable than bullshit paper merit.

I am a lazy butthole because I was a suburban military brat, no matter what the high testing.

Ironman says

Well, it's definitely 13th grade, but considering how many (especially boys) fuck off the first year and get 1.0 GPA's, it's better to throw away a few grand in community college versus $20K at a state school (unless the parents like burning through that money and have nothing to show for for it)

I was an example of someone who fits that description roughly. I would have benefited from at least commuting from home if not going to community college.

There are a couple of fuck ups and some slackers but the vast majority are groomed successfully to be hard driving

I'm provably the only one who would even put the community college thing out there. Some of the skinflints also don't believe in breaking bank on education even though they probably have millions in liquid assets

But others, while still of flinty skin and high liquidity , will splurge on education and be careful on everything else

Out of all my relatives, I'm one of the few that ever had a student loan balance. I can also say that it wasn't worth it in my case

Ceffer says

Even many very smart people are incredibly fungible, it only the TRULY rare exceptional who are not.

That's why I say Med school and residency is overrated. I don't really brad about it because it isn't a bragging worthy subject. A lot of things and circumstances had to be ideal for me to get through medical school and into a residency.

I mean, sure it is hard work and a good amount of pressure

But I really don't see that many from a poor and disadvantaged background being able to do it anymore

Ceffer says

Getting into universities is a political act, not an act of merit. The merit is window dressing and an entirely relative, movable feast. Also, cheating is rampant. I knew a guy who bragged to me about getting into a Harvard professional school on forged transcripts. He continued on to practice just fine and dandy throughout his career.

My senior partner, who was dean's list at both, Columbia and Penn, got a 2:2, meaning lower half of second class honours, a.k.a a 'B' average, at the Univ of London's LLM program at UCL. In other words, the American Ivies were grade inflated but the equivalent Ivy-like postgraduate law school in Britain wasn't.

And you know what, perhaps that means that there's some merit left in the world, albeit, shrinking by the generation.

And BTW, this guy could punk either John Kerry or Al Gore. He's not a genius but he isn't a dumbass either.

MMR says

theoakman says

Consequently, I've watched them get slighted non-stop by admissions when they clearly outperform 99% of the people admitted to Ivy League universities.

The problem is lot of these guys look exactly the same on paper . Also they tend to write personal statements about the topic of growing up in two different cultures and the pressure that no one else can actually relate to....I'm sure admission committees get annoyed to read that drivel over and over again.

Getting into Ivy League, requires some imagination...rin idea about streaming broadcast is the type of ingenuity that will separate from other Asian or Eastern European kid.

Top state schools like University of California for example have slightly different criteria and missions; even UC has gotten away from original mission in the name of stuffing coffers

They don't though. I have pretty much taught at the two top public schools in New Jersey. My very best students have had legitimate claims to top student in the state...and in one instance the country. My very best asian students have had the most impressive resumes and were bigger standouts than anyone in several areas. Ivy League universities actively discriminate against them. Hell, they openly do it and still won in court when the asians tried to sue them. I can say this though, Carnegie Melon university were very smart and realized the talent pool within the town and has since accepted dozens of them. I always told them, it doesn't matter, because they are destined for success anyway. But it's really annoying to watch your best talent get slighted while someone who's ranked 200 in the class be the only one admitted into Columbia because she is 1/4 hispanic.

theoakman says

My very best students have had legitimate claims to top student in the state...and in one instance the country. My very best asian students have had the most impressive resumes and were bigger standouts than anyone in several areas. Ivy League universities actively discriminate against them.

If they were Asian, but had come from families who were partners at various sovereign funds from Singapore to Seoul, they'd be highly sought after by elite colleges for undergraduate studies.

When I was in graduate school in Chemistry, 50% of the students were from China/Korea. 20% were from various Eastern European countries. About 5% were hispanic, mostly from Puerto Rico. No one was from Africa. I did know one guy in Physics from Iran. The hysterics that limiting immigration hurts us is nonsense. A lot of the foreigners that come into our grad schools attend it on our own federal grants then go back to their native country. It's a net loss for the country.

Rin says

theoakman says

My very best students have had legitimate claims to top student in the state...and in one instance the country. My very best asian students have had the most impressive resumes and were bigger standouts than anyone in several areas. Ivy League universities actively discriminate against them.

If they were Asian, but had come from families who were partners at various sovereign funds from Singapore to Seoul, they'd be highly sought after by elite colleges for undergraduate studies.

The private school I live 3 blocks away from is Lawrenceville NJ costs 50k a year. 30% of their class goes to Princeton. None of them are all that smart. It's simply a test to see how much money their parents are willing to toss around.

BTW, I'd taken two courses at Harvard College during the day as a special student and got two A's, BFD.

Seriously, if everyone there was Issac Newton, I wouldn't have scored in the top sector of the classes w/o having studied nearly 7x24.

I'd have been fighting against ppl with photographic memories and 200 IQs, who probably didn't even need to attend college to begin with.

I have seen students stress about getting into Stanford. They have a dumasses Princeton-like private junior college for the wealthy in Menlo Park that guarantees admission into Stanford upper division.

One trust fund rich kid I knew in the day was admitted to Stanford legacy, played bridge and took bowling classes, was proud that he scraped by on gentleman "C". He went high up in the State Department. One of my fraternity bros, on merit and with extensive additional graduate studies with degrees from both Harvard, Stanford, and some international schools, went just slightly higher and became an ambassador (to a couple of countries, not just in title).

Ceffer says

One trust fund rich kid I knew in the day was admitted to Stanford legacy, played bridge and took bowling classes, was proud that he scraped by on gentleman "C". He went high up in the State Department. One of my fraternity bros, on merit and with extensive additional graduate studies with degrees from both Harvard, Stanford, and some international schools, went just slightly higher and became an ambassador (to a couple of countries, not just in title).

All true, except that it's a Gentleman's "B-" nowadays.

There's little true vis-a-vis merit at Ivy like schools in America.

At the University of London, a 70% on the final exam is an 'A' or a 'First'. My senior partner, never got a single one, during his studies abroad. He said that everyone there, esp the students from former Commonwealth nations like Hong Kong/Singapore, were always prepped ahead of time and were simply honing their skills in class. Over there, an 'A' was really an 'A'.

Despite having it relatively easy at Columbia/Penn, he simply didn't have that extra mojo which the other scholars at UoL had. I suppose he could have spent the time to develop those skills but cmon, the West End of London was simply too much fun.

MMR says

In my family, community college is scoffed at, as is the idea of a high school graduation party or congratulating your kid for finishing high school...although people are slowly lightening up on latter

Finishing high school is not considered an achievement by Asian families.

Dan8267 says

What do you expect when our government and corporations have been waging a War on STEM for the past 40 years through H1B Visas and outsourcing?

The way to get more Americans to enter STEM is to let STEM careers provide for both job security and high pay. Those two things are what determines whether or not people want to enter a field.

WTF. STEM is high paying with job security.
Todays kids don't want to do hard work, and complain a lot. They are not punished enough, and their parents don't push them hard enough.

Strategist says

WTF. STEM is high paying with job security.

Only for those of us who have already made it and didn't suffer any unlucky breaks. Sure, we're secure. The young professional starting out is fucked. He can't make a case for himself instead of some outsourced slave worker.

Strategist says

Todays kids don't want to do hard work, and complain a lot.

That is complete and utter bullshit. You are sounding like every grumpy old man ever, and you're wrong just like all the previous grumpy old men were.

I'm a Gen X'er. My entire generation was called slackers. Meanwhile, I paid my own way through college and worked 70-90 hours a week routinely when I was young.

The Baby Boomers were called lazy, entitled good-for-nothings by their parents. OK, bad example, but their parents were called the same by theirs.

This shit is real old, and it's always been wrong.

Every generation of old people has called the young people of the day lazy. It's never been true, and never will be.

The fact is that the Millennials worked damn hard getting college educations because the older generations said that if they didn't "they'd be flipping burgers", and then proceeded to flip burgers after going in debt $100k+ for a damn college degree. That's not the fault of the Millennials. It's your generation that fucked this up.

Millennials are at least as hard working as any other generation in history. It's just that in today's world, there's a hell of a lot more competition, and you don't get ahead by being a productive member of society. You get ahead by being lucky and/or sneaky in zero-sum games. And again, that's your generation's fault, not theirs.

www.youtube.com/embed/M4IjTUxZORE

Dan8267 says

Strategist says

WTF. STEM is high paying with job security.

Only for those of us who have already made it and didn't suffer any unlucky breaks.

You mean those who were good enough. Not everyone is top notch.

Dan8267 says

ha ha. Love it. So true. Every generation feels the next one is a loser.

theoakman says

Rin says

theoakman says

My very best students have had legitimate claims to top student in the state...and in one instance the country. My very best asian students have had the most impressive resumes and were bigger standouts than anyone in several areas. Ivy League universities actively discriminate against them.

If they were Asian, but had come from families who were partners at various sovereign funds from Singapore to Seoul, they'd be highly sought after by elite colleges for undergraduate studies.

The private school I live 3 blocks away from is Lawrenceville NJ costs 50k a year. 30% of their class goes to Princeton. None of them are all that smart. It's simply a test to see how much money their parents are willing to toss around.

Is that Hun school or Lawrenceville academy ?

Strategist says

You mean those who were good enough. Not everyone is top notch.

It is foolish to think that economic policies like outsourcing and H1B Visas have no effect on what careers young Americans pursue or the stability and prosperity of STEM careers. The entire purpose of outsourcing and H1B Visas is to diminish the value of STEM professionals. Of course it has a huge effect.

These two policies are responsible for the greatest brain drain in the history of the world. The brain drain from America and western Europe to Asia, specifically China and India. So you can kiss America superiority good-bye. What happen to manufacturing, now controlled by China, will happen to all STEM fields.

These policies sell out America for a fraction of its cost and it's the most unpatriotic thing a corporation can do.

The fact is it takes two entire generations to build a highly skilled workforce. Mentoring matters. Passing the torch to the next generation matters. Establishing a tradition of excellence in any field matters. These things are being undercut by short-term greed.

This shortsightedness won't affect me. I already made it. But the current and next two generations are completely fucked. And that should upset you if you want America to be the dominant power and culture in the world. Our political influence and our military might are entirely dependent on our technological and economic leadership, and our economy is highly dependent on our technological leadership.

Thirty years from now, if you are still alive Strategist, then you'll be bitching and moaning about the good old days (today) when America still had technological leadership. And you'll probably blame liberals for all the consequences of Reaganomics.

Rin says

theoakman says

My very best students have had legitimate claims to top student in the state...and in one instance the country. My very best asian students have had the most impressive resumes and were bigger standouts than anyone in several areas. Ivy League universities actively discriminate against them.

If they were Asian, but had come from families who were partners at various sovereign funds from Singapore to Seoul, they'd be highly sought after by elite colleges for undergraduate studies.

Exactly because those Asian candidates have something (the parents) known as influence....the opposite of a lot of the Asian candidates simply come from upper middle class professional or business families, which are less valuable to the Ivy League

theoakman says

My very best asian students have had the most impressive resumes and were bigger standouts than anyone in several area

So how did these Asian applicants resumes differ from one another? That would be the million dollar question. Also, how many of these bulletproof applications are coming from the exact school? Ivy League can't conceivably take them all...

Most of these applicants are awesome, but do they have that it factor that makes them too good to pass up...I believe the word fungible comes to mind here...these stellar candidates, for one reason are fungible when some Kennedy is too good to pass up.

I distinctly remember reading an article last year quoting some Princeton review people saying essentially that a lot of Asian applicants appear homogenous; In fact, I posted it here a few times as well

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2014-11-21/princeton-review-tells-asians-to-act-less-asian-and-black-students-to-attach-photos

I'm Indian and compared to such a batch of people even though my parents at one time (up until post undergrad) had little more money than the migrant farm workers daughter who is first in family to attend college, who is compared to an entirely different batch of people. My parents didn't have money for me to do manufactured experiences (community service in Guatemala) to boost my resume. But I was an Eagle Scout

With all due respect, I think the article correlates better with my personal experience than what you are reporting here

Strategist says

Finishing high school is not considered an achievement by Asian families.

Exactly, I had to fight tooth and nail because I felt embarrassed among my peers not to have one