patrick.net

Rin says

Seriously, these types of contests are a complete waste of time, esp if you want the Ivy admissions board to stereotype your kid as an Asian or Slavic (plus Persian [for those who don't know that Persians are white Asians]) nerd, who'll never make it in management consulting or financial services with the likes of a Chelsea Clinton or a Tiffany Trump.

Here's a cue for Asian kids ... start a variety show with some streaming content station for your hometown, That's the kind of stuff which will get you into Harvard Business School, not some Intel (formerly Westinghouse) crap.

"95% of winners of the Intel Science Talent Search (STS) traditionally have pursued science as a career, with 70% earning Ph.D.’s or M.D.’s."

Read that last bit ... "M.D.", in other words, the only place where one's exam scores can score a lifelong $200K+ career. The PhD, however, will either be a long term postdoc/adjunct professor, or will leave, for a career in IT, consulting, etc.

Ding ding ding ding ding

MMR says

Most of the Indians who come here on an h1-b discourage their own children from pursuing STEM; still, when they fail to convince their kids to study medicine or dentistry, they encourage them to do STEM in lieu of business or law

The thing is that even among Indians, along with neighboring countries, usually the STEM is only for the undergraduate degree for the 2nd/3rd generations. Afterwards, many still look at careers in finance, consulting, business, or law.

Those who stay in STEM, opt for managerial career tracks in-house or in peer companies.

MMR says

Ding ding ding ding ding

I'm working with an admission counselor, to get into a top 20 medical school and she told me all about this stuff.

The key is to package oneself as a 'rainmaker'. That's the secret to admissions.

If a school believe that in the future, you'll bring in the big donors and possibly, help launch a new wing or dept, you don't need a 4.0/45 MCAT. And if you have numbers anywhere close, instead of let's say a 5-10% chance of getting into Johns Hopkins, that percentage will shoot up to 75%, provided that you don't come across as psychotic during the interview.

tovarichpeter says

83% of U.S. top science students are children of immigrants

What do you expect when our government and corporations have been waging a War on STEM for the past 40 years through H1B Visas and outsourcing?

The way to get more Americans to enter STEM is to let STEM careers provide for both job security and high pay. Those two things are what determines whether or not people want to enter a field. Just look at manufacturing and agriculture. No America wants those jobs because they offer neither job security nor high pay. It is ridiculous to expect other people to want low paying jobs that have no job security, especially if the jobs are very difficult as STEM jobs are. Would you want to start a career in such a field? No. So why would anyone else?

You can bet that by the third generation, grandchildren of immigrants, STEM will no longer hold any appeal.

So it's basically a disinformation (this is what "fake news" used to be called in the olden times).

The 17% weren't brainwashed by their stupid Democratic & Republican parents.

Straw Man says

So it's basically a disinformation (this is what "fake news" used to be called in the olden times).

LIES is probably a better word.

My best students in AP Physics are always children of 1st generation immigrants which includes Europeans. Consequently, I've watched them get slighted non-stop by admissions when they clearly outperform 99% of the people admitted to Ivy League universities.

The same things happens in education. There is a true actual shortage of Physics teachers. They keep saying, we need to push more people into this field to fill that gap. Never say a god damned thing about pay. They expect someone to teach Physics and be paid the same amount as your English teacher. Therefore, the gap persists.

theoakman says

Consequently, I've watched them get slighted non-stop by admissions when they clearly outperform 99% of the people admitted to Ivy League universities.

The Ivies need to admit ppl like John Kerry and Al Gore, lazy bozos from well connected political families.

Remember, after Harvard undergrad, Gore had flunked out of Vanderbilt Law. I repeat ... F's on his finals, not D's. The dean tried to broker a deal with Senator Gore Senior, lazy Al's dad, for junior to submit a term paper so that the university could pass him, despite his abject failure as a law student. Al junior, being the lazy schmuck that he was, didn't even do that and is forever, a law school flunk out, who'd become Vice President of the United States.

WaPoIsHitler Lipsovitch says

held a similar contest in Des Moines, IA or Armonk, NY would I get 83% Foreign Born?

Armonk is headquarters for IBM

People in armonk are largely Jewish with wealth I. Line with Scarsdale

Rin says

The Ivies need to admit ppl like John Kerry and Al Gore, lazy bozos from well connected political families.

Correct. Also known as 'development admits'

Rin says

Al junior, being the lazy schmuck that he was, didn't even do that and is forever, a law school flunk out, who'd become Vice President of the United State

Lends credence to the myth of meritocracy

Dan8267 says

can bet that by the third generation, grandchildren of immigrants, STEM will no longer hold any appeal.

I generally am inclined to agree, but anecdotally, I am seeing lot of third generation Indian Americans in my family pursuing engineering if they are not interested in medicine

I am inclined to think these kids and their parents are kind of stupid

APOCALYPSEFUCK_is_ADORABLE says

How the fuck does someone flunk law school?

Did he show up?

Sloth and gluttony; I have a cousin who quit seton hall law school because she was being badgered by her parents to get married...once she found a keeper, she quit

Nice girl overall, but sloth and gluttony, coupled with a healthy dose of vapidity and entitlement reminiscent of a Jewish American princess (jap)

theoakman says

They expect someone to teach Physics and be paid the same amount as your English teacher. Therefore, the gap persists.

Ridiculous .... but true....obv physics is hard work

theoakman says

There is a true actual shortage of Physics teachers

I have a phd family friend who teaches physics ad a prestigious private school in Albuquerque

If he has a more dynamic personality I would tell him to do quant work for the money

theoakman says

Consequently, I've watched them get slighted non-stop by admissions when they clearly outperform 99% of the people admitted to Ivy League universities.

The problem is lot of these guys look exactly the same on paper . Also they tend to write personal statements about the topic of growing up in two different cultures and the pressure that no one else can actually relate to....I'm sure admission committees get annoyed to read that drivel over and over again.

Getting into Ivy League, requires some imagination...rin idea about streaming broadcast is the type of ingenuity that will separate from other Asian or Eastern European kid.

Top state schools like University of California for example have slightly different criteria and missions; even UC has gotten away from original mission in the name of stuffing coffers

My family immigrated from Norway. The mid-1800's I believe.

CBOEtrader says

What would we lose if immigrants could no longer come to America? " why even propose such a silly question?

The issue is ILLEGAL immigration....other than Iran, didn't see trump making big deal about countries like china and India, where the parents 'science superstars' actually come from

Helps to have parents who are scientists to help you complete projects or do them outright as well as access to labs to do projects/experiments

Rin says

a school believe that in the future, you'll bring in the big donors and possibly, help launch a new wing or dept, you don't need a 4.0/45 MCAT.

Fair enough, but you need to convince people that you've got such deep pockets. Seems like you have that part covered

I have cousins getting close to applying to college and they are getting advice that is about 179.9 degrees opposite

Fwiw if it was me, I'd be a lot closer to your admissions advisor with regard to advice doled out

MMR says

I have cousins getting close to applying to college and they are getting advice that is about 179.9 degrees opposite

Your cousins shouldn't even bother with the Ivy admissions game.

By virtue of checking that "Asian-American" box, they'll immediately be facing discrimination, never mind having to deal with the future Gores, Kerrys, Kennedys, and Trumps, as well as the offsprings of movie producers, faculty members, Olympic athletes, & any other "special" individuals. Your cousins will seldom be able to out perform any one of Angelina Jolie's kids, esp when the latter are Hollywood royalty.

If anything, your relatives should be doing the Univ of London distance program, using a few part-time US college courses to transfer in, to avoid getting slammed by the notion that "US high schools don't compute" in Britain.

Then, prepare judiciously to get first class honours, and then, they'll have a solid shot of getting into many stateside Ivy grad schools, along with British programs at London or Oxbridge.

MMR says

I have cousins getting close to applying to college

www.youtube.com/embed/5PXFKsGcRkY

MMR says

APOCALYPSEFUCK_is_ADORABLE says

How the fuck does someone flunk law school?

Did he show up?

Sloth and gluttony; I have a cousin who quit seton hall law school because she was being badgered by her parents to get married...once she found a keeper, she quit

Nice girl overall, but sloth and gluttony, coupled with a healthy dose of vapidity and entitlement reminiscent of a Jewish American princess (jap)

Believe it or not but law school is actually suppose to be hard.

It's not a place for a bozo like Gore, whose idea of doing work is shooting pool and smoking a joint.

Thus, the Gentleman's C doesn't really exist in law but Gore, being the snot that he was, couldn't even muster the Gentleman's D.

tovarichpeter says

83% of U.S. top science students are children of immigrants

Mostly Chinese, Indian, and Jews.

People from Iraq, Somalia, Sudan, Syria, Libya and Yemen, not so much.

Iran is an exception. Tons of stem people from Iran.

Dan8267 says

War on STEM for the past 40 years through H1B Visas and outsourcing?

I noticed a chance in early to mid 90s...prior to Y2k, not so much in 70s to 80s

Rin says

Your cousins shouldn't even bother with the Ivy admissions game.

By virtue of checking that "Asian-American" box, they'll immediately be facing discrimination, never mind having to deal with the future Gores, Kerrys, Kennedys, and Trumps, as well as the offsprings of movie producers, faculty members, Olympic athletes, & any other "special" individuals. Your cousins will seldom be able to out perform any one of Angelina Jolie's kids, esp when the latter are Hollywood royalty.

If anything, your relatives should be doing the Univ of London distance program, using a few part-time US college courses to transfer in, to avoid getting slammed by the notion that "US high schools don't compute" in Britain.

Then, prepare judiciously to get first class honours, and then, they'll have a solid shot of getting into many stateside Ivy grad schools, along with British programs at London or Oxbridge.

MMR, during these discussions with your younger relatives, please tell 'em about Al "the inventor of the internet" Gore and John "the intellectual" Kerry, and the fact that they got around in life due to the rich WASP families from which they were born into.

Realize, George W. Bush isn't the only Fortunate Son moron on the block.

Ironman says

hope they're going to community college the first two years, otherwise someone is throwing a lot of money away.

Lot of them are quite well off and many are skinflints

But they will all pay big bucks for brand name schools

In my family, community college is scoffed at, as is the idea of a high school graduation party or congratulating your kid for finishing high school...although people are slowly lightening up on latter

theoakman says

They expect someone to teach Physics and be paid the same amount as your English teacher. Therefore, the gap persists.

THIS. Any moron can teach English or Basic Algebra or Social Studies.

Few can teach Chemistry and Physics, and pay ought to reflect that.

But you bet the Union doesn't want that: A) Pay by Seniority and B) Gender Inequality since most women avoid Chemistry and Physics like the plague, esp. after HS.

WaPoIsHitler Lipsovitch says

But you bet the Union doesn't want that

Another good reasons to make public sector unions illegal.

rando says

WaPoIsHitler Lipsovitch says

But you bet the Union doesn't want that

Another good reasons to make public sector unions illegal.

Just homeschool the kids. With all the streaming content available these days, between Coursera, EdX, youtube, etc, there's no more need for ordinary K-12, unless your kid is NCAA bound with a lot of athletic talent.

MMR says

Dan8267 says

can bet that by the third generation, grandchildren of immigrants, STEM will no longer hold any appeal.

I generally am inclined to agree, but anecdotally, I am seeing lot of third generation Indian Americans in my family pursuing engineering if they are not interested in medicine

I think that's the exception to the rule. I read years ago, but can't find the material now, that the children of immigrants do better than native-born Americans in school, but that advantage doesn't propagate to the grandchildren of immigrants. The reasoning behind it was that immigrants pressure their children to perform better than their peers out of necessity, but the native born children of immigrants do not pressure their own children the same way.

MMR says

The issue is ILLEGAL immigration

Trump's orders do target Islamic immigration, legal or illegal. However, the real immigration issue is about how much immigration and what standards should we have, not how to make people follow legal procedures for immigration.

Dan8267 says

orders do target Islamic immigration, legal or illegal. However, the real immigration issue is about how much immigration and what standards should we have, not how to make people follow legal procedures for immigration.

Other than Iran, the other counties are irrelevant to this article, which presumes that by limiting immigration, we are losing scientists and future scientists.

Immigration from Central America or remaining countries that are subject to travel ban will have virtually no effect on who does the intel science competition.

Trump has no problem with immigration from India and China

Dan8267 says

that the children of immigrants do better than native-born Americans in school, but that advantage doesn't propagate to the grandchildren of immigrants. The reasoning behind it was that immigrants pressure their children to perform better than their peers out of necessity, but the native born children of immigrants do not pressure their own children the same way.

The engineers of this generation behind me are mostly considered slackers compared to those who do medicine. Most of the kids who got into Med school got into accelerated BA/MD programs and those not interested are pursuing engineering or computer science

Dan8267 says

that advantage doesn't propagate to the grandchildren of immigrants. The reasoning behind it was that immigrants pressure their children to perform better than their peers out of necessity,

I think there are a lot of globalists in my family and that realization that creates a mentality of scarcity and subsequent pressure to compete

Rin says

homeschool the kids. With all the streaming content available these days, between Coursera, EdX, youtube, etc, there's no more need for ordinary K-12, unless your kid is NCAA bound with a lot of athletic talent.

Even the latter category could conceivably be educated that way although California wouldn't permit it. If one wanted to go homeschool route it could conceivably be done by enrolling in private school, some of which have online education options.

In many states the kids would participate in school which neighborhood is zoned to

For example, if someone wanted to do figure skating or tennis, it's pretty much a given that an 8-3 class schedule is a hindrance.

Probably it is a hindrance to other sports as well

Although kids in team sports probably prefer to be in school because that is where their friends are.

Dan8267 says

The reasoning behind it was that immigrants pressure their children to perform better than their peers out of necessity, but the native born children of immigrants do not pressure their own children the same way.

This is what leads to the lack of inheritance and inability to go from new money to old money. Old money is less likely to spend in a tacky way, invest wisely and exhibit patience and discipline.

The first key to investing after all, is to have money available for investment

Getting into universities is a political act, not an act of merit. The merit is window dressing and an entirely relative, movable feast. Also, cheating is rampant. I knew a guy who bragged to me about getting into a Harvard professional school on forged transcripts. He continued on to practice just fine and dandy throughout his career.

Kids should not be shamed that somehow these admissions are about demonstrable or inherent judged merit. Even many very smart people are incredibly fungible, it is only the TRULY rare exceptional who are not.

They should probably only admit kids from farming families, because farmers know that life is about working from morning until night. Commitment and hard work are far more valuable than bullshit paper merit.

I am a lazy butthole because I was a suburban military brat, no matter what the high testing.

Ironman says

Well, it's definitely 13th grade, but considering how many (especially boys) fuck off the first year and get 1.0 GPA's, it's better to throw away a few grand in community college versus $20K at a state school (unless the parents like burning through that money and have nothing to show for for it)

I was an example of someone who fits that description roughly. I would have benefited from at least commuting from home if not going to community college.

There are a couple of fuck ups and some slackers but the vast majority are groomed successfully to be hard driving

I'm provably the only one who would even put the community college thing out there. Some of the skinflints also don't believe in breaking bank on education even though they probably have millions in liquid assets

But others, while still of flinty skin and high liquidity , will splurge on education and be careful on everything else

Out of all my relatives, I'm one of the few that ever had a student loan balance. I can also say that it wasn't worth it in my case

Ceffer says

Even many very smart people are incredibly fungible, it only the TRULY rare exceptional who are not.

That's why I say Med school and residency is overrated. I don't really brad about it because it isn't a bragging worthy subject. A lot of things and circumstances had to be ideal for me to get through medical school and into a residency.

I mean, sure it is hard work and a good amount of pressure

But I really don't see that many from a poor and disadvantaged background being able to do it anymore

Ceffer says

Getting into universities is a political act, not an act of merit. The merit is window dressing and an entirely relative, movable feast. Also, cheating is rampant. I knew a guy who bragged to me about getting into a Harvard professional school on forged transcripts. He continued on to practice just fine and dandy throughout his career.

My senior partner, who was dean's list at both, Columbia and Penn, got a 2:2, meaning lower half of second class honours, a.k.a a 'B' average, at the Univ of London's LLM program at UCL. In other words, the American Ivies were grade inflated but the equivalent Ivy-like postgraduate law school in Britain wasn't.

And you know what, perhaps that means that there's some merit left in the world, albeit, shrinking by the generation.

And BTW, this guy could punk either John Kerry or Al Gore. He's not a genius but he isn't a dumbass either.