patrick.net

Dan8267 says

PeopleUnited says

Here are some of the results of the teaching of Islam.

Here are some of the results of the teaching of Jesus

Cherry picking examples is a logical fallacy. Adolf Hitler, Vlad the Impaler, Vladimir Putin, King Henry VII, and many others are also the results of the teachings of Jesus. One can even make the case that Putin became far more evil after his conversion back to Christianity.

I'm not going to play your little pyramid game, if you want to join the debate club go back to school. I'm sure the JV team could teach you a thing or two.

Are you calling Adolf, Vlad, Vladimir Christians? Because they went to church? What have they ever said about Jesus that made you think they were Christians? You get more absurd with every rat hole you go down. More making shit up. Give me one example of how Vlad the Impaler expressed his undying gratitude for the sacrifice that Jesus made on the cross to make him a new creature in Christ and I'll say Dan is king of the pyramid.

The problem once again is your premise, just as your premise that there is no god is an untenable foundation from which to build anything but lies, claiming someone is a Christian because they said so is untenable.

For example. I can call my self a New York Yankee baseball player but that doesn't get me on the field. The owner of the Yankees is the only one who can give me those credentials. The same is true with Christianity. People can call themselves Christians but unless Jesus gives you the credentials you aren't getting inside those gates. Did Jesus tell you that Vlad the Impaler is a Christian? I'd like to hear more about that!

bob2356 says

Strategist says

They end up supporting religious wackos.

They end up supporting religious wackos after their strongmen leaders become corrupt, viciously repressive, and extremely wealthy while the people live in abject poverty and terror. The same reasons as people fought for communism after the fall of colonialism across the world.

You sound like the domino theory idiots.

They end up supporting religious wackos because they are trying to be good Muslims. The corrupt dictator is a much better option than a religious wacko.

Old time Pat.net religious arguments are back!

Also, Frederick the Great is better than Francoise Holland or Dubya. The only reason Democracy should be preferred over enlightened despotism is the succession issue: who follows the dictator? Otherwise forward-thinking dictators are better.

Better Lee Kwan Yew than the Afghan Jurga.

PeopleUnited says

I'm not going to play your little pyramid game,

You mean being civilized? You don't have to act like an adult, of course. Being childish and petty is your right. However, the audience is not going to respect you if you choose to exercise your right to be a poo-fling monkey instead of honestly debating the issue like an adult.

So go ahead. You're only embarrassing yourself and making your side look even worse.

PeopleUnited says

Are you calling Adolf, Vlad, Vladimir Christians? Because they went to church? What have they ever said about Jesus that made you think they were Christians?

They believe(d) in the divinity and resurrection of Christ. By definition, that makes them Christians. Your No True Scotsman argument fails.

PeopleUnited says

For example. I can call my self a New York Yankee baseball player but that doesn't get me on the field.

If you play for the NY Yankees in official American league games, then you are a NY Yankee even if you suck ass at baseball. The definition of a NY Yankee player is playing official baseball games for the NY Yankee team. Whether or not someone fan calls you a true NY Yankee is irrelevant.

Your analogy is also flawed because Hal Steinbrenner actually exists, unlike Yahweh. You can physically walk up to Seinbrenner and slap him in the face with your dick. He'll probably object, but you can do that because he exists. Here's a picture of him.

You will never get a picture of your god because he does not exist.

As for Jesus, here's an up-to-date picture.

He no longer exists. The person he was has ceased to be. Therefore Jesus cannot decide anything, nonetheless who is a true follower of his.

Dan8267 says

He does not look like someone who is gonna wake up anytime soon.

That just makes my point even more so.

How did a thread on Islam turn into a judgment on Christianity?

FamousInjury says

How did a thread on Islam turn into a judgment on Christianity?

It always does. Same old Liberal circle jerk.

FamousInjury says

How did a thread on Islam turn into a judgment on Christianity?

Dan hijacked it.

It's more fun attacking barbarians that live today, rather than attacking barbarians that lived a thousand years ago.

socal2 says

FamousInjury says

How did a thread on Islam turn into a judgment on Christianity?

It always does. Same old Liberal circle jerk.

Pointing out the hypocrisy of a thesis is a valid counterargument. The original thread's question is "What are the root causes of Islamic terrorism?" The answer to that question is
1. Faith
2. Religion
3. All the irrationality created by 1 and 2.

The "Discuss" part of this thread's title led to pointing out that Christianity suffers from those three things as well and historically has been ever bit as bad as Islam. Hence, the discussion is on topic and not a hijacking. Just because you don't like the truth doesn't make that truth invalid or irrelevant.

The conversation only went on long because one side refuses to accept historic truth.

Strategist says

It's more fun attacking barbarians that live today, rather than attacking barbarians that lived a thousand years ago.

Christianity does more harm to America every day than Islam ever could. It corrupts our government, our laws, our policies, endangers the entire world ecosystem, and violates civil and human rights, all while holding morality back to Iron Age standards.

Dan8267 says

Christianity does more harm to America every day than Islam ever could.

Right - Christianity did so much harm that America managed to become the most dynamic, free, ethnically diverse, prosperous and powerful country in the world.

Just imagine how much farther ahead America would be from the rest of the world's primates if we were all a bunch of angry atheists like Dan.

Dan8267 says

Strategist says

It's more fun attacking barbarians that live today, rather than attacking barbarians that lived a thousand years ago.

Christianity does more harm to America every day than Islam ever could. It corrupts our government, our laws, our policies, endangers the entire world ecosystem, and violates civil and human rights, all while holding morality back to Iron Age standards.

What do you think Islam does today? Do they even know what human rights are? Everything you mentioned, is just a 100 times worse in Islam.
e.g. Genocide of the Yazidis. Christians do not do that. Those that did so in Yugoslavia were quickly subdued.

Dan8267 says

Your god creates terrorists.

Dan8267 says

Your analogy is also flawed because Hal Steinbrenner actually exists, unlike Yahweh.

So on which statement were you bullshitting? The time you said Yahweh didn't exist or the time you said he was Allah and he created terrorists? Me thinks both were bullshiting.

Dan8267 says

PeopleUnited says

I'm not going to play your little pyramid game,

You mean being civilized?

No I meant playing word games, see above. You want to have your cake and eat it too. You claim God doesn't exist, and he simultaneously creates terrorists. That IS a miracle.Dan8267 says

a poo-fling monkey instead of honestly debating the issue like an adult.

Dan8267 says

You mean being civilized?

Did you say something about being civilized?Dan8267 says

However, the audience is not going to respect you

Dan, when was the last time you showed respect to Bible believers? What percentage of Patneters show such respect? When is that ever going to change? Surely you can set the example if you really believed in showing respect. I don't believe you ever will, but I am happy to be proven wrong.
Dan8267 says

Your No True Scotsman argument

You created another Straw Man. How cute.
Dan8267 says

They believe(d) in the divinity and resurrection of Christ. By definition, that makes them Christians.

Where are your witnesses? Surely there must be witnesses that say Vlad the Impaler confessed Jesus as his Lord and Savior? Where are these people who witnessed these men confessing Christ? I'm sure a true Christian would have a lot to say about how much Christ meant to them. They probably would talk about Jesus every day and want to share it with others. Testify brothers......... (Crickets chirping).

Dan8267 says

If you play for the NY Yankees in official American league games, then you are a NY Yankee

Ok, but before playing for the Yankees, a player is recognized by the owner as a player, agrees to the terms of the contract and is given a jersey. Then his/her name is written on the program/roster. That is why it is a near perfect analogy of what it means to be a Christian.

You said it right that a Christian claims and confesses Christ as their Savior, but just as claiming/confessing to be Yankee doesn't make it so, neither does the claim of Christ. It is not official unless Christ puts their name on the roster. You don't become a Yankee without going through Steinbrener and being approved by Him, and you don't become a Christian by asking Dan for his definition and approval. You do become a Christian by talking to the owner of the team, Jesus.

Matthew 7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven. (testimony of people who confess Jesus is Lord but did not truly make him their savior)
Revelation 20:15 Anyone whose name was not found written in the book of life was thrown into the lake of fire. (testimony of God's promise that in order to avoid the lake of fire your name must be found written on the roster, the book of life)
Revelation 3:5 He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels. (Jesus said some people's names will not be on the roster, presumably some of those who thought they were on the roster were mistaken, note in this passage they are even given jerseys for the home team)

Dan8267 says

You will never get a picture of your god because he does not exist.

But wait I thought you said he created terrorists. I guess in a round about way He did. He created every human being that ever walked the earth. Thanks for the reminder. I guess you are right after all. As for a Snapchat image, I don't need one, He wrote me a book. You may have heard of it.

Oh, and He did walk this earth, but His bones he took with Him when he was taken up into heaven after rising from the dead. Luke 24;50-51.

Still waiting for you to show some respect Dan. Judge. Brother?

socal2 says

Dan8267 says

Christianity does more harm to America every day than Islam ever could.

Right - Christianity did so much harm that America managed to become the most dynamic, free, ethnically diverse, prosperous and powerful country in the world.

Just imagine how much farther ahead America would be from the rest of the world's primates if we were all a bunch of angry atheists like Dan.

http://www.cbsnews.com/news/joseph-jakubowski-search-accused-of-stealing-guns-sending-manifesto-to-trump/

One of Dan's fellow anti-God warriors.

I find it very dishonest that Dan claims to call someone who shows no testimony of Christian faith a Christian. It is about as disingenuous as it gets.

As for Job, is it really unethical to make a promise and keep it, that is what the story is about from my perspective. Both Job and God were faithful and Satan could not cause that faithfulness to fail despite attacking everything Job had on this earth.

socal2 says

Right - Christianity did so much harm that America managed to become the most dynamic, free, ethnically diverse, prosperous and powerful country in the world.

All those good things happened because atheists and secularists attacked and reduced Christianity's hold over the population. Do you really think we would be the world leader in wealth and technology if we still burned witches like they did in the 1600s and thought that demons and spirits controlled the world?

Every scientific, political, social, and moral advancement has come from the diminishment of Christianity.

socal2 says

Just imagine how much farther ahead America would be from the rest of the world's primates if we were all a bunch of angry atheists like Dan.

I'm not angry, but you clearly are. It must enrage you that atheists like me have cause Christianity to die a bit every year in our country. Church attendance is plummeting. People are less likely to identify as Christians, and when they do, they don't actually believe in all the myths in the Bible. I can feel your hate pulsating through your blood, and it makes a pleasing sound, the sound of victory.

In contrast, times are very good for us happy atheists, and we're quite happy that the death of your religion is coming along nicely. Today is far better than when your religion actually mattered. And with each passing year, and each passing death of a brainwashed individual, your religion matters less and mankind is freer. It's a great time to be alive.

But to answer your question of where we would be if Christianity never existed...

We would be colonizing the galaxy by now.

PeopleUnited says

That being said, I find it very dishonest that Dan claims to call someone who shows no testimony of Christian faith a Christian. It is about as disingenuous as it gets.

I find it very dishonest that you claim I did such a thing. You are as disingenuous as it gets.

The entire history of Christianity is full of people of great faith in Christ committing rape, murder, genocide, infanticide, and other atrocities. You don't get to rewrite history. The fact that you keep repeating your lies just makes you even more despicable.

Dan8267 says

socal2 says

Right - Christianity did so much harm that America managed to become the most dynamic, free, ethnically diverse, prosperous and powerful country in the world.

All those good things happened because atheists and secularists attacked and reduced Christianity's hold over the population. Do you really think we would be the world leader in wealth and technology if we still burned witches like they did in the 1600s and thought that demons and spirits controlled the world?

Every scientific, political, social, and moral advancement has come from the diminishment of Christianity.

Science and religion can never be compatible. Look at the Islamic nations......what has been their scientific achievements in the last 2 centuries?

PeopleUnited says

http://www.cbsnews.com/news/joseph-jakubowski-search-accused-of-stealing-guns-sending-manifesto-to-trump/

One of Dan's fellow anti-God warriors.

OK, you have one evil anti-religious person. How long did it take you to find that, and how does that outweigh the 1 billion Christians in history who have done evil in the name of their religion including Hitler? If you want to compare good vs. evil, the fact is that violent criminals are overwhelmingly Christian. Atheists make up a far smaller proportion of convicted murderers, rapists, and all other criminals than what is to be expected from the percentage of the general population that are atheists. The reverse is true of Christians.

Facts are a bitch, aren't they?

Dan8267 says

PeopleUnited says

http://www.cbsnews.com/news/joseph-jakubowski-search-accused-of-stealing-guns-sending-manifesto-to-trump/

One of Dan's fellow anti-God warriors.

If I were to argue like PeopleUnited, I'd have to say he wasn't anti-God because he's violent and the only way to be anti-God is to be peaceful and good. Only the anti-God can judge who are his real followers. Now that would be a straw man worthy of one of PeopleUnited's arguments.

Instead, I say sure atheists can be evil, but they are empirically far less likely to be so than Christians.

Newbie123 says

What good comes out of Islam?

What good comes from any religion that cannot also come more reliably from somewhere else without all the evil baggage of religion?

Dan8267 says

All those good things happened because atheists and secularists attacked and reduced Christianity's hold over the population.

The Abolitionists that were at the forefront of the anti-slavery movement was an explicitly Christian movement and used Christianity to justify their anti-slavery positions.

Whereas, the super sophisticated atheists types used "science" to justify slavery and eugenics. Isn't slavery and racism our country's biggest sin?

The fanatical atheists that ran the Communist party under Stalin and Mao did quite a bit to "attack and reduce" Christianity's hold over the population. How did that work out for humanity?

socal2 says

The Abolitionists that were at the forefront of the anti-slavery movement was an explicitly Christian movement and used Christianity to justify their anti-slavery positions.

As did the slavers. They quoted the Bible's pro-slavery verses from both the Old AND NEW Testaments. Yes, that's right, the New Testament is also pro-slavery. In fact there is nothing anti-slavery anywhere in the Bible.

Oh, and Jesus Christ never rallied against slavery, the biggest moral issue of his time.

This round goes to atheists.

socal2 says

Whereas, the super sophisticated atheists types used "science" to justify slavery and eugenics.

Now that's just an outright lie. Some Christians used pseudo-science to justify slavery and eugenics in the 1800s. Name one atheists that did. Actually, name at least a million because one bad atheist doesn't outweigh a million bad Christians. History still bears witness that religion, especially Christianity, causes people to become more evil.

socal2 says

The fanatical atheists that ran the Communist party under Stalin and Mao did quite a bit to "attack and reduce" Christianity's hold over the population. How did that work out for humanity?

Quite well. If the communists were Christians, the world would have ended in nuclear war already.

In any case, all the evil in the Soviet Union had nothing to do with atheism, but rather with authoritarians and is exactly what you see in the United States today with the massive domestic spying, black flag operations, lethal medical experimentation on civilians, forced sterilization without the knowledge of the women being sterilized, and many, many more evils I can go into.

But you're trying to argue that if a single evil atheists exists, then atheism should be banned. Well, let's apply that to Christianity. Remember the alligator babies discussed in a recent thread? All the people using infants and toddlers are alligator bait, letting the animals eat the children alive, were Christians, not atheists. That's fucked up. Are you going to be a hypocrite or are you going to call for a ban on Christianity now?

Here are your Christian values...

They would go down there at night, take these babies and... tie them up, put a rope around their neck and around their torso, around here, and tie it tight.

They'd be screaming... What they were doing would help them to chum the water. He said when they would throw the babies in tied to this rope, he said in a matter of minutes, he said, the alligators were on them. He said the alligator would clamp his jaws on that child. As a matter of fact, once he clamped on them he was really swallowed. He said you couldn't see anything but the rope! Some would be infants, some would be a year old, toddlers, some would be infants.

Dan8267 says

And the United States could definitely deteriorate into a theocracy.

It can't. Very few Christians are fanatical. Most lawmakers, even though they call themselves Christians, are really secular.

Strategist says

Dan8267 says

And the United States could definitely deteriorate into a theocracy.

It can't.

That's what they said about Trump being elected.

Strategist says

Very few Christians are fanatical.

That has changed in the past. It can change again. It takes constant opposition of religion to keep it in check.

Strategist says

Most lawmakers, even though they call themselves Christians, are really secular.

There are key senators in charge of important committees who cite Noah's Ark as evidence that rising sea-levels are impossible. That should scare you.

Dan8267 says

Quite well. If the communists were Christians, the world would have ended in nuclear war already.

Ha ha! The ideology responsible for the murder of more human beings on the planet did "quite well" according to Dan.

Dan8267 says

In any case, all the evil in the Soviet Union had nothing to do with atheism,

Has everything to do with atheism. It was a central tenet of Marxism/Leninism. You couldn't be a member of the Communist party and be a practicing Christian or Jew.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marxist%E2%80%93Leninist_atheism

socal2 says

Whereas, the super sophisticated atheists types used "science" to justify slavery and eugenics. Isn't slavery and racism our country's biggest sin?

Slavery was supported by Christianity. The Bible even tells you how slaves should be treated, and what the price of a slave should be.
The Bible was used to justify American slavery.
If it wasn't for science, atheism and secularism we would still be living in a rotten world with slaves.

socal2 says

Every fanatic I encounter on internet forums like this are "AA's" (angry atheists).

And this would be an example of a poisoning the well argument. It goes like this.

Step 1, claim that atheists are all angry people. This, of course, is completely untrue, but socal2 expects the audience are idiots who can be fooled. Step 2, since you've demonized the target group, claim that therefore anything they say must be untrue. After all angry people can never be right about anything. Case in point, all those Jews who are angry about the Holocaust cannot be right, therefore the Holocaust must have never happened. It's just logic, man.

Atheists are not angry. A lot of Christians are pissed the fuck off because atheists are now winning the popular opinion about religion by exposing how ridiculous it is. Of course, being angry doesn't make Christians wrong about their god. Reality makes them wrong about their god.

When one side uses nothing but lies and logical fallacies, it's a red flag.

Dan8267 says

Atheists are not angry. A lot of Christians are pissed the fuck off because atheists are now winning the popular opinion about religion by exposing how ridiculous it is. Of course, being angry doesn't make Christians wrong about their god. Reality makes them wrong about their god.

Ha ha ha. Quite right.
Even if atheists are angry, so what? They are the victims. They are hated, discriminated, and cursed just because they don't believe the silly nonsense in the fairy tale Bible.

Strategist says

Slavery was supported by Christianity.

Slavery was supported and practiced by virtually every society and ideology on the planet at the time of Christ and the Old Testament. Slavery was around thousands of years before the first Jew walked the earth and the most scientifically brilliant societies of the ancient Greeks and Romans practiced slavery and worse.

Unlike Islam, Christianity and Judaism has evolved as humans gain more understanding of the universe. A central tenet of Catholicism is science and man's reason.

My point stands that the American Abolitionist movement which was at the forefront of eliminating slavery in America was a profoundly Christian movement.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_Abolitionism

My point also stands that the political, economic and social ideology responsible for more human deaths than anyone else in modern times was an explicitly atheist movement.

I am all for the separation of Church and State. There is no more awesome power in this world than that of organized governments who control our military, security services, and ability to tax. I think it is healthy for governments to have some competing outside moral ideologies to contend with. The atheist Communists and ISIS are very similar in how they fanatically eliminate any competing moral ideology.

Strategist says

Even if atheists are angry, so what? They are the victims.

We certainly would have the right to be angry. Anger is an appropriate emotional response to crimes against humanity like genocide, torture, rape, infanticide, burning people at the stake, etc.

However, the typical "angry" or "militant" atheist is summed up in this cartoon.

Quite frankly, most of us are more likely to get into a heated discussion about which captain is better, Kirk or Picard, than one about gods. By the way, Picard is clearly the better captain. Kirk is basically Trump, a pussy-grabbing hot head. Picard is a diplomat and thinker, and has inspirational speeches.

socal2 says

But I still recognize the massive benefits Christianity and Judaism provided Western Civilization.

Like the dark ages? The inquisition? The thirty years war? The albigensian crusade (kill them all , god will know his own)? The crusades? Hypatia and the library at alexandria?

Dan8267 says

And this would be an example of a poisoning the well argument. It goes like this.

Step 1, claim that atheists are all angry people. This, of course, is completely untrue, but socal2 expects the audience are idiots who can be fooled. Step 2, since you've demonized the target group, claim that therefore anything they say must be untrue. After all angry people can never be right about anything.

And this would be an example of Dan's staggering hypocrisy.

Because Dan saying something like this below ain't poisoning the well or anything. No demonization or untruths going on there - right Dan?

Dan8267 says

Christianity does more harm to America every day than Islam ever could. It corrupts our government, our laws, our policies, endangers the entire world ecosystem, and violates civil and human rights, all while holding morality back to Iron Age standards.

socal2 says

And this would be an example of Dan's staggering hypocrisy.

www.youtube.com/embed/G2y8Sx4B2Sk

A hypocrisy requires a contradiction in behavior and principle. There is none on my side.

socal2 says

No demonization or untruths going on there - right Dan?

Dan8267 says

Christianity does more harm to America every day than Islam ever could. It corrupts our government, our laws, our policies, endangers the entire world ecosystem, and violates civil and human rights, all while holding morality back to Iron Age standards.

No, there isn't any demonization or untruths in the above quote. One cannot state the facts of the Holocaust without making the Nazis look bad. That doesn't make those facts untrue or biased. Similarly, one cannot state the facts of Christian history without Christianity looking bad.

Historical truths make people on the wrong side of history look bad. You don't get to rewrite or whitewash history because your religion's evil deeds are well known. Stating historical facts is not poisoning the well. Historical truth matters.

www.youtube.com/embed/xefh7W1nVo4?start=189

bob2356 says

Like the dark ages? The inquisition? The thirty years war? The albigensian crusade (kill them all , god will know his own)? The crusades? Hypatia and the library at alexandria?

What are the most advanced, tolerant and prosperous nations on earth today Bob? Dare I say it is Christian dominated nations in the West? Is it a coincidence that Christian dominated nations are also the most secular, pluralistic and allow for diversity of faith or lack there of?

And for the record, Stalin killed more in one year than all of the inquisitions combined.

Crusades? Pushing back Islam's invasion of Europe and the Middle East is still considered a black mark against Christianity? Are the Crusades less pure than the Allies defeat of the Axis powers because the Allies fire-bombed and nuked cities killing hundreds of thousands of innocent people?

Dan8267 says

You don't get to rewrite or whitewash history because your religion's evil deeds are well known. Stating historical facts is not poisoning the well. Historical truth matters.

Says the dude that is trying to whitewash atheism's massive involvement in the most destructive ideology every to be inflicted upon our planet.

As you say, historical truth matters. The Commies are really good at revising history.

socal2 says

Strategist says

Slavery was supported by Christianity.

Slavery was supported and practiced by virtually every society and ideology on the planet at the time of Christ and the Old Testament. Slavery was around thousands of years before the first Jew walked the earth and the most scientifically brilliant societies of the ancient Greeks and Romans practiced slavery and worse.

It's irrelevant. Just because it was a common practice back then, does not make it moral. If the Bible allowed slavery, then the Bible is a piece of trash that belongs in the recycle bin.

socal2 says

Unlike Islam, Christianity and Judaism has evolved as humans gain more understanding of the universe. A central tenet of Catholicism is science and man's reason.

Religions don't evolve, the interpretations of religions evolve, due to education and science. The central tenet of Catholicism cannot be science, because science considers religions as silly mythology.

socal2 says

My point also stands that the political, economic and social ideology responsible for more human deaths than anyone else in modern times was an explicitly atheist movement.

Not it isn't. Almost all wars were a result of religion. Atheism is just a lack of belief.
The great majority of scientists are Atheists. Atheists are more intelligent, more educated and are the cause of scientific progress. Religions, which don't even believe in evolution are not capable of advancing the human race. Religions can only keep mankind in the era in which it was created.

socal2 says

My point stands that the American Abolitionist movement which was at the forefront of eliminating slavery in America was a profoundly Christian movement.

This IS True.

The first person in the world to get a government to ban slavery on Moral Grounds was William Wilburforce.

Naturally most SJWs have never heard of him, because he's not good for their narrative.

Toussaint of Haiti led a slave rebellion, only to end up re-legalizing it so he could have Slaves himself.

Nelson Mandela's wife kept Slaves, also.

socal2 says

Says the dude that is trying to whitewash

Honeybuns, I've whitewashed nothing. I called out your bullshit that Communism is an atheistic movement. It's not. The economic system does not have anything to do with religion, and just because the Soviet Union eliminated competition from it doesn't mean all Communist societies are atheistic or that the two things have anything to do with each other. Just look at Cuba.

You are trying to equate mustaches with mass murder and you just look stupid trying to do that. But hey, keep doing it. I love pointing out the dishonesty. It just kills your credibility.