patrick.net

Dan8267 says

PeopleUnited says

http://www.cbsnews.com/news/joseph-jakubowski-search-accused-of-stealing-guns-sending-manifesto-to-trump/

One of Dan's fellow anti-God warriors.

OK, you have one evil anti-religious person. How long did it take you to find that,

Um, honey it happened like Monday. It was national news.

Dan you have lost your sanity man.

God has a strange way of rewarding the people who embraced his religion, by setting famine, plague (during Justinian's reign), and barbarian invasions upon them mere decades after conversion. I think Rome fell less than a century after the official conversion of the Empire.

PeopleUnited says

Um, honey it happened like Monday. It was national news.

It's still the extremely rare exception to the rule, unlike 80% of Christian history.

FortWayne says

Dan you have lost your sanity man.

Feel free to back that up. I don't take crazy accusations from crazy seriously.

socal2 says

Crusades? Pushing back Islam's invasion of Europe and the Middle East is still considered a black mark against Christianity? Are the Crusades less pure than the Allies defeat of the Axis powers because the Allies fire-bombed and nuked cities killing hundreds of thousands of innocent people?

Try again. Islam didn't invade europe setting off the crusades. They never even made Constantinople. The closest the muslims came was Battle of Manzikert in 1071. After the surrender of Jerusalem on 637 muslims had control of the holy lands for 450 years before the crusades started. Alfonso VI of Castile, Sancho the Great, and Ramiro I of Aragon, were doing a nice job of driving the Moorish muslims out of the Iberian peninsula well before the crusades started.

The crusades were to regain the holy lands after the Seljuk prohibited pilgrimages to the holy land. Secondarily it gave Urban II an outlet to divert most of europes fighting men to something other than the rapidly spiralling out of control wars across the continent. The crusaders frequently managed to cause more trouble in the lands they passed through, especially Christian Constantinople, than in the holy land.

There was nothing pure about the crusades. Plunder was a bigger draw than religion for most crusaders.

bob2356 says

Try again. Islam didn't invade europe setting off the crusades. They never even made Constantinople. The closest the muslims came was Battle of Manzikert in 1071. After the surrender of Jerusalem on 637 muslims had control of the holy lands for 450 years before the crusades started. Alfonso VI of Castile, Sancho the Great, and Ramiro I of Aragon, were doing a nice job of driving the Moorish muslims out of the Iberian peninsula well before the crusades started.

Dude, the Arab Muslims besieged Constantinople THREE times, right at the dawn of Islam in the 600s and 700s. Repulsed mostly thanks to Greek Fire.

Constantinople eventually fell to the Turks in the 1400s, and by then the Turks held parts of Europe proper. The was just after a previous Jihad failed to be beaten back by Hungary.

Southeast Europe, including Greece, Bulgaria, Romania, what was Yugoslavia, parts of Hungary and even Austria were besieged by the Turks. Jesus, the Colonialist Imperialist Muslim Turks ruled a huge chunk of Europe right up until the time of the American Civil War, a mere century and a half ago.

They besieged Vienna, the heart of Europe FFS, in the 1500s and again in the 1600s. And the battle of Lepanto and the Siege of Malta, in the heart of the Med.

Islam did not spread from Mecca and Medina as far as Spain, Bengal, the North Shore of the Black and Caspian Seas, by handing out of Tracts and Evangelist Oratory, but by blood and iron. They filled a vacuum left by a bloody, ruinous conflict between Byantium and Persia, and all but exterminated the Zoroastrian religion. Only a few remnants survived by fleeing to India and Mozambique, the Indian exiles are known as the Parsi

Imperialist Colonialist Muslim Turks still control Constantinople, and have defaced the Hagia Sophia with their Islamic scribbles. Just like they converted or built deliberately on top of the Temple Mount in JEWrusalem, imposed the Babri Mosque over the Birthplace of Lord Rama in Ayodhya, and many, many places of worship from Hungary to the Menara Kundus in Indonesia.

Edit: I just remembered the Buddhas of Bamyian.

Jihads regularly took place on the Byzantine and Arab Frontiers, seasonally every year.

"Grand Strategy of the Byzantine Empire" by Edward Luttwak has a whole chapter on how the Byzantines would use a mix of bribery and small scale counter-raids by elite horsemen to counter the endless seasonal Jihads, where Arabs (later Turks also) from all over the MENA would gather to raid and plunder and terrorize Christian lands.

I think Victor Davis Hansen has a good bit on the Battle of Lepanto in one of his books, the one that deals with several Critical Battles. I think maybe Martel's turning of the Jihad from Spain near Tours is in there, also.

Roger Crowley has a great book on the siege of Malta.

Then there's John Julius Norwich who has a mega-tome on the history of Byzantium and his modern successor, Lars Brownworthy, has a great podcast series:
https://12byzantinerulers.com/

Europe came damn close to being overrun by Imperialist Colonialist Arab-Muslim Supremacists multiple times. God knows how many Slavs, taken in such numbers that most historians believe they gave their racial name to "Slaves", were enslaved. Ivan the Terrible burned the huge River Port of Astrakhan, a major gathering point for slaves taken by Muslim Tartars for shipment to the Middle East.

The Muslims were the greatest Slave Traders of all time, lasting almost 1400 years and still going on under terms like "Guest Worker" today in places like Qatar and Kuwait.

Even in the 18th Century, Arab Slavers raided as far as Ireland. In the 19th Century, after the Napoleonic Wars, British Industrialists were still leaving money in their wills to liberate White Christian slaves in North Africa.

Anybody who argues that the Muslims weren't expansionist, slaving, and almost entirely by the Sword is ignorant of history.

Some viewers may find Disturbing...
www.youtube.com/embed/-cTgk4oqEQw

An Ethiopian maid who survived a fall from the seventh floor of a building in Kuwait’s Sabah el-Salem area while her employer filmed has explained that she wasn’t trying to commit suicide.

“I wasn’t trying to commit suicide, I was trying to escape from the woman who tried to kill me,” the unnamed maid said in a video posted by Ethiopian media this weekend from the hospital where her broken arm is being treated.

Her "employer" (ahem) did not help but rather laughed and called her crazy as she begged for help.

She survived, but she wasn't trying to kill herself, but escape her brutal Kuwaiti Slave Mistress.

Origins of Slav:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/worldservice/africa/features/storyofafrica/9chapter1.shtml

There may have been barbarism by Europeans in the past, but today it belongs to the followers of the Most High One.

During and leading up to the 2022 World Cup, expect Cuckmedia, ignorant of history and of offending "Oppressed Brown People", to say little of how the infrastructure was built by Slaves, who have their passports taken away, live in desert tents, are beaten regularly, have their water taken away, die in huge numbers, and often billed for their 'upkeep' so they end up with no or little pay at the end. They often end up begging for work, unable to buy a plane ticket home despite a year or more of employment for their "Employer"

PeopleUnited says

I suggest that you consult God's book of promises for you will find them to be faithful and true.

Oh, we're quoting the Bible now. OK.

Infanticide
"Happy is the one who seizes your infants and dashes them against the rocks." - Psalms 137:9

Rape and sex slavery after murder rampages of men and children and non-virgin girls.
"Now therefore, kill every male among the little ones, and kill every woman who has known man intimately. But all the girls who have not known man intimately, spare for yourselves." Numbers 31:17-18

Slavery
"You may purchase male or female slaves from among the foreigners who live among you. You may also purchase the children of such resident foreigners, including those who have been born in your land. You may treat them as your property, passing them on to your children as a permanent inheritance. You may treat your slaves like this, but the people of Israel, your relatives, must never be treated this way." Leviticus 25:44-46 NLT

Sorry Lance Armstrong
"No one whose testicles are crushed or whose penis is cut off shall be admitted to the assembly of the LORD." Deuteronomy 23:1

Those are from the Old Testament, but the New Testament absolutely supports all those things and the unerringness of the Old Testament.

"Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. I tell you the truth, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished. Anyone who breaks one of the least of these commandments and teaches others to do the same will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever practices and teaches these commands will be called great in the kingdom of heaven." Matthew 5:17-19

"But it is easier for heaven and earth to disappear than for one dot of the Law to become void." Luke 16:17

"All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness," Timothy 3:16

And remember, the Christians opted in for including the Old Testament as half of the Bibile.

But wait, there's more. The New Testament is also morally bankrupt. Sprinkling in a few "be nice to your neighbor" doesn't mitigate this any more than doing that in the Old Testament did.

Those who bear bad fruit will be cut down and burned "with unquenchable fire." Matthew 3:10, 12

Jesus recommends that to avoid sin we cut off our hands and pluck out our eyes. This advice is given immediately after he says that anyone who looks with lust at any women commits adultery. Matthew 5:29-30

Jesus says that most people will go to hell. Matthew 7:13-14

Jesus sends some devils into a herd of pigs, causing them to run off a cliff and drown in the waters below. Matthew 8:32

Families will be torn apart because of Jesus. "Brother shall deliver up the brother to death, and the father the child: and the children shall rise up against their parents, and cause them to be put to death." Matthew 8:32 10:21

Jesus says that he has come to destroy families by making family members hate each other. He has "come not to send peace, but a sword." Matthew 10:34-36

Jesus condemns entire cities to dreadful deaths and to the eternal torment of hell because they didn't care for his preaching. Matthew 11:20-24

Jesus will send his angels to gather up "all that offend" and they "shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth." Matthew 13:41-42, 50

Jesus is criticized by the Pharisees for not washing his hands before eating. He defends himself by attacking them for not killing disobedient children according to the commandment: "He that curseth father or mother, let him die the death." Matthew 15:4-7

In the parable of the unforgiving servant, the king threatens to enslave a man and his entire family to pay for a debt. This practice, which was common at the time, seems not to have bothered Jesus very much. The parable ends with this: "So likewise shall my heavenly Father do also unto you." If you are cruel to others, God will be cruel to you. Matthew 18:23-35

God is like a rich man who owns a vineyard and rents it to poor farmers. When he sends servants to collect the rent, the tenants beat or kill them. So he sent his son to collect the rent, and they kill him too. Then the owner comes and kills the farmers and rents the vineyard to others. Matthew 21:33-41

Jesus believed the story of Noah's ark. He thought it really happened and had no problem with the idea of God drowning everything and everybody. Matthew 17:26-27

Those who do not believe in Jesus will be cast into a fire to be burned. This also proves that PeopleUnited is full of shit when he says the defining characteristic of Christianity isn't faith in Jesus's divinity and resurrection. Matthew 15:6

And Christ, that's just part of the Gospel according to Matthew. There are three other gospels to go through as well as many other books. Not even I have the patience to list all the evil things in the New Testament, so just a few more for now.

Peter claims that Dt 18:18-19 refers to Jesus, saying that those who refuse to follow him (all non-Christians) must be killed. Acts 3:23

Peter and God scare Ananias and his wife to death for not forking over all of the money that they made when selling their land. Acts 5:1-10

Homosexuals (those "without natural affection") and their supporters (those "that have pleasure in them") are "worthy of death" - - along with gossips, boasters, and disobedient children. Romans 1:31-32

The guilty are "justified" and "saved from wrath" by the blood of an innocent victim. Romans 5:9

God punishes everyone for someone else's sin; then he saves them by killing an innocent victim. Romans 5:12

James says Abraham was justified by works (for being willing to kill his son for God); Paul (Romans 4:2-3) says he was justified by faith (for believing that God would order him to do such an evil act). James 2:21

God will set the entire earth on fire so that he can burn non-believers to death. Peter 3:7

The New Testament is evil, too.

Lashkar_i_Trumpi says

Her "employer" (ahem) did not help but rather laughed and called her crazy as she begged for help.

She survived, but she wasn't trying to kill herself, but escape her brutal Kuwaiti Slave Mistress.

Fucking Kuwaiti bitch.

Even Patrick isn't willing to defend Christianity in this thread, and he's usually apt to do so. The evidence is that overwhelming.

Slavery is still normal in Kuwait.

http://financialjuneteenth.com/african-women-sold-into-slavery-in-kuwait-as-domestic-workers/

Good thing we liberated Kuwait from Saddam, right? He might have ended slavery there. Under US protection, the Kuwaitis get to keep their slaves.

Dan8267 says

It's funny how the biggest liars accuse honest people of lying.

Its funny how the biggest liars are the ones who make statements like Vlad the Impaler is a Christian and back it up with absolutely no evidence. We are still waiting to hear about how Vlad became a new creature in Christ, repenting of his murderous ways.

rando says

Slavery is still normal in Kuwait.

http://financialjuneteenth.com/african-women-sold-into-slavery-in-kuwait-as-domestic-workers/

Its Jesus fault (according to lying Dan's "logic")

rando says

Good thing we liberated Kuwait from Saddam, right? He might have ended slavery there. Under US protection, the Kuwaitis get to keep their slaves.

@Patrick

Good point, Saddam was a murderous prick but at least he kept a clean house. We didn't go to Iraq as liberators, that is for sure. It was the wrong thing to do for America, and for the world. A shameful part of American history.

https://culturalglimpse.com/2015/01/30/saddam-vs-king-of-saudi-arabia/

Dan8267 says

To say that Christianity has nothing to do with the evil actions of Christians from burning homosexuals to death, to committing assaults on them, to suppressing their basic civil rights is completely disingenuous.

To contribute evil actions such as burning homosexuals, assults on them etc... to Jesus is dishonest and shameful. When did Jesus tell His people to do such violence? Never. Not once. It is just more lies.

You can't attribute a bad act to teacher who told people to do the exact opposite. Unless you are a lying sack of shit.

Dan8267 says

90% of all self-identifying, church-going Christians weren't really Christians

I did not say that you did. But I agree with the premise based on the preponderance of evidence. Only around 10% of people who claim to be Christians live a life that reflects Jesus in them. Only around one in ten "christians" I know is even interested in talking about Jesus outside of church.

You got that right Dan! Be careful you are starting to make sense.

PeopleUnited says

Its funny how the biggest liars are the ones who make statements like Vlad the Impaler is a Christian and back it up with absolutely no evidence

OMFG, you must be kidding me! Are you seriously that ignorant of history? Vlad the Implaler was an Eastern Orthodox Christian who later converted to Catholicism under duress. Furthermore, his atrocities were committed for the express purpose of defending Christianity and the Church from those god damn Muslims.

https://orthodoxwiki.org/Vlad_the_Impaler

Vlad III, Prince of Wallachia, became a Romanian national hero for his defense of the Orthodox Christian faith against the Turk.

www.youtube.com/embed/FAvuzTQciew

He was celebrated throughout Christendom for his achievements against the Turks.

Way to completely rewrite history, PeopleUnited. Once more you are caught lying about historical fact, and quite frankly, that's just plain stupid because historical fact is the easiest damn thing to verify what with history being literally a written record of the past.

Hey - Dan is now quoting Russia's propaganda arm "Global Research" to criticize Christians!

You can't take the Commie out of the Atheists!

socal2 says

Hey - Dan is now quoting Russia's propaganda arm "Global Research" to criticize Christians!

1. If you think anything cited from there is inaccurate, grow a pair of balls and challenge it.
2. I presented a multitude of evidence from different sources. If you want my argument to collapse, you must take out all its legs. Start with the NY Times article if you dare.
3. The hypocrisy of you calling anything propaganda is pungent. Same goes for anyone who quotes climate change denial propaganda.

socal2 says

You can't take the Commie out of the Atheists!

Tell that to Cuba, dumb ass. It's highly religious and communistic.

Really, how dumb do you have to be to think that the disbelief in gods has anything remotely to do with an economic system in which ownership and distribution is done by the state? Those two things have less in common with each other than cats and nuclear submarines.

socal2 says

Apparently every day Christianity is harming America. I guess all these Christian charities just need to go away because they are doing so much harm.

An example of deliberately flawed and dishonest logic. Some charities are ran in the name of Christianity. Therefore, Christianity must be good no matter what else it does and anyone who judges Christianity negatively must be against charity.

Here's a list of 1,271 Islamic charities. Now let's apply your logic.

Some charities are ran in the name of Islam. Therefore, Islam must be good no matter what else it does and anyone who judges Islam negatively must be against charity.

You fucking asshole. How can you be for shutting down charities that help starving children? Or are you now an advocate of Islam?

I'm beginning to wonder if hypocrisy is also an inescapable characteristic of faith.

Dan8267 says

I've never said that Islam is not a bigger threat to the world than Christianity.

You did say that Christianity is a bigger threat to America than Islam. It is practically verbatum what you said earlier in this thread.

Dan8267 says

An example of deliberately flawed and dishonest logic. Some charities are ran in the name of Christianity. Therefore, Christianity must be good no matter what else it does and anyone who judges Christianity negatively must be against charity.

Any different then this logic Dan?

"Some people (who happen to identify as Christians) throughout history have done bad things. Therefore, Christianity must be evil no matter all of the charitable and good work done its name. Anyone who judges Christianity positively must be evil."

1. Close your italics. You left two of them open.
2. Yes. I never made a claim remotely like "Some non-Christians claiming to be Christians doing bad things means that every real Christian is bad.". That's a straw man argument.
3. Nor did I say anyone who judges Christianity positively must be evil. That's another straw man argument. I will go on the record, however, in stating that you personally probably have done considerably more evil than good and your intentions are not good.

What I claimed was that Christianity causes people to do bad things just like Islam does. Not every person who is a Muslim or a Christian will commit murder in the name of their religion or some other evil. However, the religion is a factor that persuades people to do evil. In fact, it's quite a strong factor as evident in all of history. Furthermore, it is utter hypocrisy for someone to criticize Islam as a force of great evil while whitewashing all of history that demonstrates Christianity is also a force of great evil.

To answer the original question: Islam

Quigley says

To answer the original question: Islam

Which is why they must be converted, or they will kill/enslave us all.

PeopleUnited says

You did say that Christianity is a bigger threat to America than Islam. It is practically verbatum what you said earlier in this thread.

That's true Dan. You clearly said several times that Christianity is a bigger threat than Islam. You also said the way to end the Islamic threat was by getting rid of Christianity.
Very very silly. I hope you are changing your mind.

PeopleUnited says

People are by nature corrupt, and their corrupt actions (sometimes even those taken in the name of religion) are an indictment of them as individuals but not necessarily of the religion which they practice.

Bullshit. This is a total cop out. It's like arguing that since some people rape, we should encourage our children to rape while we raise them.

Institutions and cultures matter. A culture of irrationality supported by institutions that brainwash children create corruption and evil that would not have existed without them. Just look at Islamic countries in the Middle East.

The hypocrisy of PeopleUnited's latest post is unfathomable. He started this thread precisely to criticize the religions of Islam for their role in creating terrorism, and now he's whitewashing the role of Christian religions in brainwashing people into committing acts of evil.

You'll notice that people who deny the evils of their religion follow the exact same playbook as people who deny climate change or any other fact. First they say there is no problem. Then they say the facts aren't establish and there is doubt. Then they attack the motivations of those providing objective, verifiable evidence. Then they say the problem isn't caused by their group but something else (fake Christians, the sun, etc.). Then they say the problem cannot be solved anyway, so it should be ignored and no changes made. Finally they argue it's too late to do anything, so we shouldn't. PeopleUnited and the other whitewashers of religion on this thread have used every one of these tactics except the last. I guess that comes when a nuclear war is started over religion.

PeopleUnited says

That is not evidence that there are no good trees.

There are no good religions. There is absolutely nothing good that can be accomplished with religion that cannot be accomplished more reliably, more stably, and more honestly without religion. This includes morality, which is far better served by science than any religion.

More importantly, Christianity is not a good tree. It has done far more harm than good throughout history and even today in America specifically it does more harm than good.

Religion in general and Christianity in particular are neither necessary nor helpful in promoting moral behavior, peaceful coexistence, or deterring horrific crimes. I am an atheist, and I will put my moral code and my life upholding that moral code against any theist of any religion. I don't need any false god, especially one as morally bankrupt as the Christian god, to tell me the difference between right and wrong. Parents will not start smashing their babies heads against rocks if they stop believing in their god, but they might do exactly that if someone convinces them it is their god's will that they do so.

People become atheists for one simple reason. They are intelligent and rational persons and it becomes apparent that all faith is a lie. That is the only motivation behind atheism. In fact, it is the default behavior for human beings. Belief in gods and religion is the direct consequence of brainwashing, usually starting in early childhood and continuing into adulthood. That alone demonstrates how vile religion is. No good cause requires the brainwashing of anyone, especially children. That is intrinsically evil and dangerous. In effect, religion and faith are no different than indoctrination into any perverted worldview such as Nazism.

PeopleUnited says

Let's not throw the baby out with the bath water.

This is the exact same argument that every defender of evil makes. It is always a false analogy.

People who defend Islam say the exact same thing. Let's support and protect Islam. Not every Muslim is a terrorist. True, but Islam motivates people to become terrorists and it's not necessary for any good.

People who defend Nazism, and yes there are such people, say the exact same thing. Sure, Nazism wasn't a perfect ideology, but let's not throw the baby out with the bath water. You cannot reform a fundamentally bad idea. It should be abandoned and replaced with good ideas. Religion is a fundamentally bad idea.

Religion is not the baby. It is the bathwater. There is absolutely no good reason to keep religion. Any good you think might come from your religion is better served by things that aren't inherently evil and intrinsically corruptible. Religion is a lie, but it is not a useful lie. It is a dangerous and completely unnecessary lie. There is no upside to keeping it. There is no downside to getting rid of it. And ultimately it would be immoral to promote a useful lie anyway.

Strategist says

That's true Dan. You clearly said several times that Christianity is a bigger threat than Islam

I said that Christianity is a bigger threat than Islam in America, not that Christianity is a bigger threat than Islam. Those two statements are obviously different in very important ways. If you cannot see that, then your reading comprehension needs work.

Islam is clearly a bigger threat in the Middle East because the Middle East is dominated by Islam. Their governments are controlled by Muslims and their religions are interwoven into government. This is exactly what makes Islam a greater threat in the Middle East, and it is also exactly what makes Christianity a greater threat in America. I don't see why a few people find this concept so difficult to understand. It's not that hard.

Strategist says

You also said the way to end the Islamic threat was by getting rid of Christianity.

Very very silly. I hope you are changing your mind.

Fighting irrationality with more irrationality is like fighting a fire with gasoline. It's a stupid idea.

You fight irrationality with rationality. You educate the population with science, mathematics, and reasoning. Doing this is a direct attack against all religions and the very concept of faith. Science, math, and reasoning demand the rejection of faith. Nothing is unquestionable.

Furthermore, the approach I advocate has empirically worked. It is the sole reason why religion has far less power and destructiveness in America and almost none in most of western Europe, obviously excluding recent Muslim immigration. My approach works, and history proves that. Why would I change my mind when all evidence supports this conclusion?

PeopleUnited says

Quigley says

To answer the original question: Islam

Which is why they must be converted, or they will kill/enslave us all.

If you converted Muslims to Christianity, they would simply continue killing in the name of Christ instead of Mohamed. It would also enable and accelerate the radicalization of today's Christian fundamentalist who will now have an environment to ferment their extremist ideas. You would effectively undo 400 years of secularization in the west and turn the west into the Middle East.

Dan8267 says

Second, you and I are completely irrelevant to the facts that

1. Your religion is a lie. Jesus was not divine, if he even existed at all, and did not rise from the dead. Nor did your god create the universe.

2. Your religion is a terrible moral example for all the reasons I listed above.

3. Your religion has done incredible harm to humanity.

4. Your religion is neither necessary nor desirable.

I've said more than once that false premises are the problem with your position.
The fact is that the opposite it true.
1. Jesus is the Son of God (the Creator of all things) who came to earth as a sacrifice for the sins of every man, woman and child. He died, rose and ascended into heaven.
2. The point of the Bible is to teach us that every human being is immoral and needs a Savior.
3. Jesus saves, without Him there is nothing but condemnation and death.
4. Without Jesus you will die in your sins.

There, I fixed it for you.

Dan8267 says

Strategist says

You also said the way to end the Islamic threat was by getting rid of Christianity.


Very very silly. I hope you are changing your mind.

Fighting irrationality with more irrationality is like fighting a fire with gasoline. It's a stupid idea.

You fight irrationality with rationality. You educate the population with science, mathematics, and reasoning. Doing this is a direct attack against all religions and the very concept of faith. Science, math, and reasoning demand the rejection of faith. Nothing is unquestionable.

Agree and agree again.
But you did not address my accusation.

Dan said:

If you converted Muslims to Christianity, they would simply continue killing in the name of Christ instead of Mohamed. It would also enable and accelerate the radicalization of today's Christian fundamentalist who will now have an environment to ferment their extremist ideas. You would effectively undo 400 years of secularization in the west and turn the west into the Middle East.

Here is an example of what happens if/when the God deniers are in power.

Dan wants us to repeat that history.

Dan8267 says

If you converted Muslims to Christianity, they would simply continue killing in the name of Christ instead of Mohamed.

Where are all these Christians killing in the name of Christ?

Or are you suggesting that there is some sort of genetic/race component because most Muslims are Arabs/Africans and Asians?

PeopleUnited says

rando says

Good thing we liberated Kuwait from Saddam, right? He might have ended slavery there. Under US protection, the Kuwaitis get to keep their slaves.

Patrick

Good point, Saddam was a murderous prick but at least he kept a clean house. We didn't go to Iraq as liberators, that is for sure. It was the wrong thing to do for America, and for the world. A shameful part of American history.

https://culturalglimpse.com/2015/01/30/saddam-vs-king-of-saudi-arabia/

That's a great article, worth quoting:

A week ago an Iranian student emailed me. He was angry that I had written something negative about Saddam. He called Saddam a hero. I was surprised, not because he likes Saddam (there are many people who do). I was surprised because he’s Iranian. His country was at war with Iraq for nearly ten years.

I thought about the trip I took to Iraq in 2000, how safe Iraq was during that time. I thought about the honor that the Saudi King’s death is receiving, and the discrepancies and double standards in politics. I thought about the following facts:

Saddam

Protected Christians and encouraged women to wear western clothing (women were not veiled in Baghdad and those few who were only covered their hair)
Received the keys to the city of Detroit in 1980 after donating substantial amounts of money to a church in the city.helping build Chaldean churches
Credited with creating one of the strongest school systems in the Middle East.
Iraq won a UNESCO prize for eradicating illiteracy in 1982. Literacy rates for women were among the highest of all Islamic nations, and unlike most Middle East school systems, Iraqi education was largely secular.
Hated Osama Bin Laden
There were no terrorist groups inside Iraq while he was in power
He did not gas his own people (CIA officer Stephen C. Pelletiere, the agency’s senior political analyst on Iraq during the Iran-Iraq war, wrote in a New York Times article that Saddam Hussein has much to answer for in the area of human rights abuses. ”But accusing him of gassing his own people at Halabja as an act of genocide is not correct, because as far as the information we have goes, all of the cases where gas was used involved battles. These were tragedies of war.” He also wrote that these facts have “long been in the public domain but, extraordinarily, as often as the Halabja affair is cited, they are rarely mentioned.”

Saudi King

Permitted over 400 terrorist groups to exist in his country
Locked up four of his daughters into dark and suffocating rooms since 2002
Allowed beheading of citizens for crimes like apostasy and adultery
Prohibited movie theaters, social mixing, music schools, gyms for girls and Valentine’s Day
Prohibits women from traveling without permission or driving a car
Bans other religions: twelve Filipino Christians and a priest were arrested while attending a service in a private home, in October 2010. They were verbally charged with ‘blaspheming against Islam” and cordially banned for life from Saudi Arabia (quiet deportations are a new tactic of the religious police – it avoids the media scrutiny that heavy-handed arrests generate).
Allows anti-American hate speeches in their mosques

Dan8267 says

Science, math, and reasoning demand the rejection of faith. Nothing is unquestionable.

Your ignorance never ceases to amaze me. I already mentioned that one of my great uncles is a published geneticist and a Jesuit priest.

Would it kill you to become minimally informed on this topic which so clearly gets you so exercised?

The Catholic Church Is Not an Enemy of Science
https://newrepublic.com/article/122016/catholic-church-not-enemy-science

Dan8267 says

Islam motivates people to become terrorists and it's not necessary for any good.

Hence the motivation for this discussion of the roots of Islamic terrorism.

Dan8267 says

Religion is not the baby. It is the bathwater. There is absolutely no good reason to keep religion. Any good you think might come from your religion is better served by things that aren't inherently evil and intrinsically corruptible. Religion is a lie, but it is not a useful lie. It is a dangerous and completely unnecessary lie. There is no upside to keeping it. There is no downside to getting rid of it. And ultimately it would be immoral to promote a useful lie anyway.

And yet if what I said is true:

PeopleUnited says

I've said more than once that false premises are the problem with your position.

The fact is that the opposite it true.

1. Jesus is the Son of God (the Creator of all things) who came to earth as a sacrifice for the sins of every man, woman and child. He died, rose and ascended into heaven.

2. The point of the Bible is to teach us that every human being is immoral and needs a Savior.

3. Jesus saves, without Him there is nothing but condemnation and death.

4. Without Jesus you will die in your sins.

There, I fixed it for you.

Then it is you, the one who called it a lie who is promoting evil and therefore immoral.

I like the fact that you used the word immoral. It is a great word, a word that implies there is a universal standard by which things can be measured. Tell us Dan what standard would you use to measure what is moral vs immoral? I agree that lies are immoral but why are they immoral? What ideal are you claiming to uphold? What is the source of immorality?

PeopleUnited says

've said more than once that false premises are the problem with your position.

The fact is that the opposite it true.

1. Jesus is the Son of God (the Creator of all things) who came to earth as a sacrifice for the sins of every man, woman and child. He died, rose and ascended into heaven.

2. The point of the Bible is to teach us that every human being is immoral and needs a Savior.

3. Jesus saves, without Him there is nothing but condemnation and death.

4. Without Jesus you will die in your sins.

There, I fixed it for you.

There are no false premises in my position. I will now show how your premises listed above are false.

"Jesus is the Son of God (the Creator of all things) who came to earth as a sacrifice for the sins of every man, woman and child. He died, rose and ascended into heaven."

1. Your god does not exist. That is a fact, not an opinion. He no more exists than the elephant god Ganesha and even entertaining the plausibility of Yahweh over Ganesha is pure racism.
2. Therefore, your god did not create the universe. The universe was not created. It has existed since the beginning of time, whatever that is. This is by definition and therefore cannot be argued against. Time itself is part of the universe and therefore did not exist before the universe. Whether time or space are finite or contain boundaries is irrelevant.
3. Jesus was not the son of a god or a god. He is either a fictional character or a Jewish criminal condemned to death by his government.
4. Even if Jesus was some real person and cult leader, he did not die for the sins of man. There is no such thing as sin, and the entire premise of a human sacrifice to attone for evil is downright stupid and contradictory.
5. Jesus most certainly did not rise from the dead.
6. Heaven could not possibly exist. It is a silly notion that is easily debunked. No mother could be happy in heaven if her child were burning in hell. No person could be happy in heaven if the one who raped and murder her was also there because he turned to Jesus. Heaven could not make people perfectly happy without destroying their minds.

"The point of the Bible is to teach us that every human being is immoral and needs a Savior."

7. The Bible was written by many different people each of which had different and conflicting social and political agendas. This is why the Bible is full of contradictions. It was written by man, not by or inspired by your false god.
8. The Bible is completely wrong on morality, the history of the world, and the existence of a god. The Bible is full of false stories meant to be taken literally by their actual authors. The Bible is also full of immoral teachings that would shock any non-psychopathic person such as bashing babies' skulls on the rocks along riverbanks and raping prepubescent girls.
9. Only a fool thinks he needs a savior.
10. Savior is not a proper noun. It should not be capitalized.
11. Even if Jesus existed, he was no savior. Just another religious nut who would probably be locked up in prison or an insane asylum today.
12. Even the fictional character of Jesus was not a morally righteous person. He never condemned slavery, not even sex slavery of children, which was the greatest moral problem of his time.

"Jesus saves, without Him there is nothing but condemnation and death."

13. This is complete bullshit. However, it demonstrates why faith is inherently bad. The fact that you cannot accept under any circumstances that this assertion is false means you are incapable of acting wisely. Christian brainwashing in America today is dangerous. It is a far greater threat to our society than an Islamic terrorist organization. America will not fall to terrorism. It is an ineffective strategy and it is not an existential threat. The brainwashing of the American public actually has an impact on our nation at the highest levels in terms of brainwashed politicians and the brainwashed voters who support htem.

"Without Jesus you will die in your sins."

14. Ditto 13.

"There, I fixed it for you."

The only thing you have accomplished is proving my points beyond any doubt. Please talk some more.