patrick.net

CBOEtrader says

The good news is we are hiring these people here... a bigger problem will occur if/when the jobs emigrate to eastern euro with the talent.

No worries there. Very few even consider going back. Coming to America is the best thing that ever happened to them. The opportunities and standard of living in the US are unmatched compared to anywhere else in the world.
Just look at all the whiners who constantly complain about America. Even they refuse to leave this great country.

Eastern Europeans are much smarter than Americans. They won't let in Rapefugees.

This is why:

http://www.ascd.org/ASCD/pdf/journals/ed_lead/el_198102_brandt2.pdf

CBOEtrader says

He told me they stopped hiring quants from American schools, since they consistently score lower on the initial aptitude tests and entry level training programs.

No big surprise there. IT doesn't mean they are better later than their American counter parts would be. Certainly cheaper though. You get what you pay for.

I had a Russian office mate when I was in grad school. Also knew a chinese guy that was ridiculously good in Math and comp sci. In some countries you can very much start majoring in Math, Science or comp sci at about age 11. I'm not talking just the geniuses either. They don't care if they learn, civics, history, literature or art. They just go ahead and focusing almost exclusively on their specialty very young. That is if they are identified as having the potential. We do that here too, to an extent. Magnet programs etc. But not with the same kind of urgency, and not at th exclusion of so many other things.

Imagine already being 10 years in to an expertise at age 20.

Republicans!

The difference is not only early specialization, Marcus. The math and science education in the US (in the schools, not the universities) is simply a disaster.

I am not surprised that you don't understand. I talked with several math teachers in our district - good meaning and relatively competent (as far as the subject, math, goes) guys. However, they cannot comprehend how poor the teaching approach here is. They have never seen any better and just cannot imagine who good math and science education can be when done properly.

FP says

I am not surprised that you don't understand.

Yes, I'm sure you've probably forgotten more about how education works in America than I'll ever know, even though I'm a teacher.

Our entire culture is an idiocracy from the top down. You are actually kind of a good example what's fucked up about American culture. Typical American, you have the arrogance to think you know more about the problems of our education system than most educators. You remind me of the high school drop outs that think they know more about climate science than climate scientists.

Turns out it's not nearly as simple as you think. Do you really think it's the quality of instruction that causes those Russian, Indian and Chinese children to have such good study habits and work ethic ? They probably would have had the attitude and laziness that far too many American kids have, if it weren't for the awesome Math and Science instruction they are receiving. Right ?

We have those kids here too (great hard working, driven and disciplined students). Not as many, but more than you think. We need to figure out how to have more, and changing our education system is only one small piece. Not even the most important one.

FP says

The difference is not only early specialization, Marcus. The math and science education in the US (in the schools, not the universities) is simply a disaster.

I am not surprised that you don't understand. I talked with several math teachers in our district - good meaning and relatively competent (as far as the subject, math, goes) guys. However, they cannot comprehend how poor the teaching approach here is. They have never seen any better and just cannot imagine who good math and science education can be when done properly.

You are barking up the wrong tree. Even though I'd love to take a jab at Ol' Marcus, he teaches in LAUSD and that means like 50% of his students are Illegal aliens...er undocumented immigrants...er immigrants. Whatever, theyre all from Mexico, their parents are unable and unwilling to speak english, and pretty good chance their really dumb anyways. So they are like the worst of the worst students. Good luck teaching them anything at all, let alone math.

Not true at all. Not all LAUSD schools fit your description. There are magnets, and there are many 2nd third and fourth generation latino kids that don't fit your (racist) description at all.

Fucking White Male says

that means like 50% of his students are Illegal aliens...er undocumented immigrants...er immigrants. Whatever, theyre all from Mexico, their parents are unable and unwilling to speak english, and pretty good chance their really dumb anyways.

Nice: "their really dumb anyways"

Years ago when I worked with a lot of Mexicans in restaurants I learned to respect a lot of people that have different kinds of skills that I don't have, even if they aren't academically inclined. Such as a line cook that can keep track of 15 things at once without fucking any of them up. We're talking some serious skills that I could never have.

marcus says

You are actually kind of a good example what's fucked up about American culture. Typical American, you have the arrogance to think you know more about the problems of our education system than most educators.

I am an immigrant from EU. I have been a student and have taught (at University level) both here and abroad. We had a discussion on this topic before. Have you forgotten?

You, actually, much more than me, exemplify what is wrong with the American culture. Instead of taking into consideration the opinion of people like me, who bring a different perspective, you assume that it is irrelevant. Because America is so special that what is being done and has shown to work in other countries, cannot possibly be applied here. Right? Same with your education, same with your health care system.

marcus says

Do you really think it's the quality of instruction that causes those Russian, Indian and Chinese children to have such good study habits and work ethic ?

Do you think quality and methodology of instruction does not matter? What happens when you take smart kids with good study habits and put them in a math class which is boring and/or where the teacher does not teach? What happens when you keep them confused about the most elementary concepts? What happens when they cannot see the big picture of what they are studying? What happens when today's test is on a material randomly selected from what they studied years ago?

I will tell you what happens - they start to hate the subject!

FP says

Do you think quality and methodology of instruction does not matter? What happens when you take smart kids with good study habits and put them in a math class which is boring and/or where the teacher does not teach? What happens when you keep them confused about the most elementary concepts? What happens when they cannot see the big picture of what they are studying? What happens when today's test is on a material randomly selected from what they studied years ago?

I will tell you what happens - they start to hate the subject!

You have no clue.

IT's true that sometimes in the American system, students get bored and or turned off. But the most likely reason that will happen in an American Math class is becasue they are in a class with a bunch of students with lower ability levels, and the teacher is not going to direct his or her instruction to the 3 brightest students at the detriment of the majority of a class that is also larger than it should be.. Math needs to be tracked (and it is) to a great extent. But not nearly the way it is in countries where you literally can major in Mathematics as a child if you're moderately (or more) gifted. But at the same time, I'm not a proponent of rushing Math for the masses. For a while we had too many students getting to AP Calculus in the 10th grade. (Often) Better to build a strong foundation and get there a year or two later. Common core is going to reverse that alittle, although who knows if it will last.

FP says

Instead of taking into consideration the opinion of people like me

I fully understand your opinion. It's extremely arrogant and misguided. Your opinion is all about you. I'm not saying you're 100% wrong. IT's just that the extent that you make everything all about you prevents you from seeing a bigger more complex picture. So, as much as I understand your opinion, and even agree with parts of it, it's not particularly interesting to me.

marcus says

You have no clue.

It is based on my observations and experience, so I do indeed have a clue.

marcus says

But the most likely reason that will happen in an American Math class is becasue they are in a class with a bunch of students with lower ability levels, and the teacher is not going to direct his or her instruction to the 3 brightest students at the detriment of the majority of a class that is also larger than it should be..

What I have seen is that they get turned off because they are confused about very basic things. They are confused because the teacher is not teaching (this is CPM for you).

Read the article I linked above and you'll see other reasons for why they get bored, related to how you teach the subject.

marcus says

Better to build a strong foundation and get there a year or two later.

But you are not building a strong foundation, even though you are taking many more years (arithmetic up to grade 8??). Do you know that in the Soviet Union school was only 10 years? And classes only in the morning. Here we have 13 years of schooling (with mandatory kindergarten), morning and afternoon (which is part of the problem, btw) and yet our students end up with much weaker math education.

marcus says

I fully understand your opinion.

you understand shit

marcus says

IT's just that the extent that you make everything all about you prevents you from seeing a bigger more complex picture.

I discuss the problems that I have encountered. I do not claim that there no other issues, however, they do not justify or explain the problems that I criticize.

There are countries which conduct (or have conducted) math and science education a lot better that in the US. Learn from them.

marcus says

t's not particularly interesting to me.

Well, I am telling you that:
1) Your textbooks suck (big time!!!)
2) Your curriculum sucks
3) Your teaching approach sucks (e.g. CPM)
4) Many of your teachers are unqualified

If you think these things are irrelevant for the overall math education, I wonder what you think is.

This is why we have to give more and more money to teacher's unions. If they had a lot more money, maybe the students would learn a little more math.

FP says

marcus says

I fully understand your opinion.

you understand shit

marcus, I apologize for this

FP says

FP says

marcus says

I fully understand your opinion.

you understand shit

marcus, I apologize for this

Did your wife step in and make you play nice?

Eastern Europeans...

Remember, getting the answers right on the test is more critical to their survival there compared to here where wealth is just distributed and handed over no matter how badly someone scores on their standardized testing. No Obama, Hillary, Pelosi, there to kill people's motivation to succeed.

marcus says

Not true at all. Not all LAUSD schools fit your description. There are magnets, and there are many 2nd third and fourth generation latino kids that don't fit your (racist) description at all.

Fucking White Male says

that means like 50% of his students are Illegal aliens...er undocumented immigrants...er immigrants. Whatever, theyre all from Mexico, their parents are unable and unwilling to speak english, and pretty good chance their really dumb anyways.

Nearly 1 million illegal aliens in Los Angeles county Marcus. Most live in the poorer areas which largely are served by LAUSD, even places like Huntington Park that aren't actually in the city of LA. You do understand numbers and statistics right Marcus?

Now factor in that literally anyone that can afford to send their kids to private schools in LAUSD does so....

And it ain't a pretty picture. A very sizable, and perhaps up to 50% of the students, are children of illegals. Of course we can't know for sure since LAUSD has refused to release that info.

Nice: "their really dumb anyways"

Years ago when I worked with a lot of Mexicans in restaurants I learned to respect a lot of people that have different kinds of skills that I don't have, even if they aren't academically inclined. Such as a line cook that can keep track of 15 things at once without fucking any of them up. We're talking some serious skills that I could never have.

And hence why line cooks make like $12 an hour. Because of their valuable skills. Please don't project your spaziness on others.

When it comes to K-12 teachers, what's troubling is that the salaries are far below what you need to cover cost of living in a place like the Bay Area. So although there are people whose life calling it is to be a teacher, it's safe to say that the job isn't lucrative enough to attract bright minds in expensive area unfortunately.

And yes, there are exceptions to the rule. So don't anyone engage me in the "but but but there are some good teachers" I know there are.

Industries that don't compensate, overwhelmingly don't attract the best and the brightest. Fact of life.

Fucking White Male says

Now factor in that literally anyone that can afford to send their kids to private schools in LAUSD does so....

Another supposed expert with no clue.

Here's an example for you, since we're talking about Math. There are several high schools in LAUSD that are ranked higher,, but this is probably the best one for Math.

https://www.niche.com/k12/los-angeles-center-for-enriched-studies-los-angeles-ca/

BayArea says

Industries that don't compensate overwhelmingly don't attract the best and the brightest.

True, but do you really need the best and brightest to teach math to a kid in highschool? The pdf that FP posted in comment 3 said two important thing, IMO. One was that the soviets used highly trained people as teachers. Another was that the kids were all very motivated to learn, because they knew that education was important to their success. IMO, the motivation is probably the biggest problem. In the US, we think that the borders of the education system are the school property lines. The education system starts at home. Anyone with enough drive and aptitude could learn more math than 99.5% of the population by buying used books for $0.49 + 3.99 shipping from Amazon. Of course a kid needs instruction on how to learn and were to start, but it doesn't take a genius to help a kid figure things out if they are interested in learning.
We do need to pay more if we want really intelligent teachers, but we need to fix some other aspects of our society if we want our kids to be good at math.

CBOEtrader says

He told me they stopped hiring quants from American schools, since they consistently score lower on the initial aptitude tests and entry level training programs. Whereas the eastern european students come in better prepared and more willing to work.

WTF? This doesn't make any sense at all. What initial aptitude tests or entry level training programs? Quants are graduate level people usually PHD's. They have a published thesis. People come from all over the world to get into top level US PHD programs. It's one place that US education really shines.

I don't buy this.

So where are all the eastern european countries that are doing better at math and science? Estonia, which is northern europe and has a population less than San Jose, is the only one that scores higher in both subjects.

The US should do better, but there are many factors involved. If we got rid of the low performing welfare sucking red states the US would be very near the top internationally. http://www.businessinsider.com/best-and-worst-states-at-math-2013-10

What's in the water in Singapore?

Canada, kicking ass.

Those countries put criminal seditious reporters under the damn jail for bad mouthing their country, the countries talents and abilities.
They don't have a party working in their government to handicap their education system to the lowest common denominator, those countries don't hire hot twenty something teachers with no life experience to teach teenagers with raging hormones.

But keep kicking Americans you git those damned bastards back on the plantation. Go on Git! GIT GIT!!!

bob2356 says

What initial aptitude tests or entry level training programs?

Programming and math tests week 1, and derivatives industry applied knowledge at week 10.

bob2356 says

Quants are graduate level people usually PHD's.

You consistently assume you know more than you know. This will always lead you to poor conclusions.

Quants is a broad term. This conversation was regarding entry level quantitative developers. Most of these people have the equivalent of undergrad or masters programs. On eastern Europe I am told they often recruit from tech trade schools.

Our universities are woefully bad at educating developers, especially quantitative developers.

bob2356 says

People come from all over the world to get into top level US PHD programs.

Yup... And many more are staying in their own country to learn coding/math/science without wasting $400k. Top students from these students come out very well educated and without the ego associated to a wasteful credential.

I'm glad you can put your finger on the problem.