patrick.net

Jan Hus said:
"O sancta simplicitas"

Man, there is a lot of propaganda out there about Venezuela's problems being due to Socialism being bad, and nothing else. I don't have time right now, but somebody look up that article that food and toilet paper shortages are caused by the top 0.1% using US dollars designated for food imports to take currency out of the country rather than actually importing food and other necessities.

Scarface for El Presidente! What could possibly go wrong?

Quigley says

Venezuelan health care collapses, infants die by the thousands, amputations to cure infections, doctors protest government

Ever hear of confirmation bias? That's when you want to believe f(x) is true for all values of x in set U, so you take one particular value of x for which f(x) holds and then make a hasty generalization that f(x) holds true for all x in U.

For example, a country that used socialism, Venezuelan, has a bad economy. Therefore all countries that use socialism have a bad economy. This conclusion does not follow because other countries like the United States use socialism as well and do not have bad economies. In fact, the percent GDP of socialism in Venezuela fuxuates between 11% and 18% compared to 36.5% in the United States. That's $6.56 trillion / $17.95 trillion. So the United States is a MORE SOCIALIST country with a BETTER ECONOMY. This directly contradicts your hasty generalization.

Perhaps you confused socialist with communist, but that still invalidates your implied and intended conclusion.

But the hasty generalization is always a fallacy. The use of the U.S. military in Yemen during the Trump Yemen raid failed. If we were to apply the reasoning you are using, we would have to conclude that the U.S. military will always fail at everything it does. Do you really accept this consequence of your rule? If not, why should we accept your rule when applied to anything?

Of course, if you really think we need less socialism in the United States, you should start with the biggest socialist program we have, the military, and slash its budget by 90%. That may seem like a lot, but we'd still be spending more than any other country does on its military. So, Quigley, honest question... Are you in favor of slashing the defense budget by at least 90%?

#theMilitaryIsSocialist

Dan8267 says

For example, a country that used socialism, Venezuelan, has a bad economy. Therefore all countries that use socialism have a bad economy. This conclusion does not follow because other countries like the United States use socialism as well and do not have bad economies. In fact, the percent GDP of socialism in Venezuela fuxuates between 11% and 18% compared to 36.5% in the United States. That's $6.56 trillion / $17.95 trillion. So the United States is a MORE SOCIALIST country with a BETTER ECONOMY.

Really? 11% of Venezuela's economy is socialism? And the other 89% is capitalism? LOL. They are totally dependent on oil. They can't even grow enough food.

Socialists ran out of other people's money... what a shock. And they haven't even started housing and scholarships for illegals in anti-white SJW outrage.

FortWayne says

Socialists ran out of other people's money... what a shock. And they haven't even started housing and scholarships for illegals in anti-white SJW outrage.

The country with the world's largest oil reserves cannot even feed their own people. I would call this the Mother of All Failures.

Dan8267 says

So the United States is a MORE SOCIALIST country with a BETTER ECONOMY. This directly contradicts your hasty generalization.

Another Orwellian pearl of wisdom from Dan!

Left is Right, Up is Down. Wet is Dry.......

It has nothing to do with Venezuela's insane price controls and nationalization of industry - right Dan?

Do I have to slap you anti-socialists in the face with all the SOCIALISM that you don't pay for,individually.

Individually, as in you didn't build this country out of your pocket.
The military must have been created by you rich ASSHOLES/Republicans without any tax dollars.

You ignorant,retarded fucks.

HEY YOU says

Do I have to slap you anti-socialists in the face with all the SOCIALISM that you don't pay for,individually.

Individually, as in you didn't build this country out of your pocket.

The military must have been created by you rich ASSHOLES/Republicans without any tax dollars.

You ignorant,retarded fucks.

Calm down, relax, it's just the internet.
We use a mixture of socialism and capitalism to create the best possible economic system that produces wealth, rewards success, provides safety, educates everyone, provides healthcare and provides for unlimited opportunities. We need to do more for healthcare and education, and our system allows for changes, and it's only a matter of time before it happens.
Venezuela, only provides for socialism from a natural resource that will one day be worthless. Venezuelan's can't produce wealth, technology, or any form of progress because they foolishly eliminated capitalism from their system. Socialist countries cannot produce much wealth unless they steal it, find it, or beg for it. This is why ALL SOCIALIST COUNTRIES EVENTUALLY FAIL.

All socialism is not bad. We have many socialized programs that provide a service for all rather than just whoever elects to have them. Usually these are services that must be collectivized like military, fire, libraries and national parks. But there are others that provide social safety nets to keep disadvantaged or unlucky citizens from starving in the streets. These usually provide a net benefit, since those people may move on from their current misfortunes to become productive members of society and thus be valuable.
What we need is an army of social workers seeking out the chronically indigent and either assisting them in finding jobs or assigning them to work camps picking crops or whatever as encouragement to change their ways. Children of these folks should be moved into foster homes until their loser parents get a grip on themselves and begin to be productive. If they never do, the kids will be better off for not having such worthless role models and having to live in the miserable conditions they provide.

Anyway, cutting out most expensive military programs would be a good idea, but we already have a fairly small military in just soldier count for our population. The world is a dangerous place, and providing security for its citizens is the first responsibility of government.
That is why Obamas refugee program of importing dangerous Muslims from around the third world is such a disservice to us all. It's made us less safe, it's a drain on resources, and it's an ongoing excuse for the government to intrude into our lives.

Quigley says

What we need is an army of social workers seeking out the chronically indigent and either assisting them in finding jobs or assigning them to work camps picking crops or whatever as encouragement to change their ways.

The Church goers who claim higher moral values should be doing that. Instead, they waste their time and the time of others by trying to convert others.

Strategist says

Quigley says

What we need is an army of social workers seeking out the chronically indigent and either assisting them in finding jobs or assigning them to work camps picking crops or whatever as encouragement to change their ways.

The Church goers who claim higher moral values should be doing that. Instead, they waste their time and the time of others by trying to convert others.

It's not nice to speak the truth about Christians and their Failed Loser religion!!

FortWayne says

Socialists ran out of other people's money

Love and Forgiveness "I only read one book" ran out of things to say

errc says

The Church goers who claim higher moral values should be doing that. Instead, they waste their time and the time of others by trying to convert others.

It's not nice to speak the truth about Christians and their Failed Loser religion!!

Doesn't God somewhere say.....Thou shall not lie?

Dan8267 says

Quigley says

Venezuelan health care collapses, infants die by the thousands, amputations to cure infections, doctors protest government

Ever hear of confirmation bias? That's when you want to believe f(x) is true for all values of x in set U, so you take one particular value of x for which f(x) holds and then make a hasty generalization that f(x) holds true for all x in U.

For example, a country that used socialism, Venezuelan, has a bad economy. Therefore all countries that use socialism have a bad economy. This conclusion ...

It is as astounding as it is frightening, the lack of understanding some Americans posses regarding the system of government of Socialism. I imagine it's a combination of having no real experience, and poor education. Inoculated safely by the laws and rights granted us, many are simply immune to the true knowledge of this brutal and ruthless diseased form of governance. The utter disregard for the individual, the shameless suffering it causes and multitudes of untold stories of torture, pain and misery. It is horrid.

For those who have experienced the affects of true Socialism, the post in quote is sickening at a visceral level.

Strategist says

Really? 11% of Venezuela's economy is socialism? And the other 89% is capitalism

Yes, by definition, the amount of socialism is how much costs are socialized versus individually borne, which is most directly and accurately measured by total government revenue / GDP.

Oh, and by the way, you can be 100% socialist and 100% capitalist as those things aren't mutually exclusive. The military industrial complex is both 100% socialist and 100% capitialist.

I think you need to learn the difference between socialism and communism.

socal2 says

Another Orwellian pearl of wisdom from Dan!

Left is Right, Up is Down. Wet is Dry.......

Another idiotic post from someone who doesn't know the difference between socialism and communism. The definition of technical terms matter.

Quigley says

All socialism is not bad.

You still haven't answered the question. Would you cut 90% of the defense budget? If you don't, you're not significantly cutting socialism no matter what you do.

In any case, you have conceded my point, socialism itself is not a bad thing and thus Venezuela's troubles is not an indication that socialism cannot work. The intended conclusion of the original post is simply wrong.

The best you can say is that you have an example of totalitarianism + communism + socialism + single product economy + uneducated masses + lack of technology + religion = poverty + instability. Well, I bet if we get rid of the last four conditions the economy would be a lot better.

Dan8267 says

In any case, you have conceded my point, socialism itself is not a bad thing and thus Venezuela's troubles is not an indication that socialism cannot work. The intended conclusion of the original post is simply wrong.

Why do you think Venezuela has failed? Show us where socialism without capitalism and democracy has worked?
In my view 100% capitalism or close will fail. 100% socialism close will fail.

Strategist says

Show us where socialism without capitalism and democracy has worked?

In my view 100% capitalism or close will fail. 100% socialism close will fail.

you answered your own questiion

sagacious1 says

For those who have experienced the affects of true Socialism, the post in quote is sickening at a visceral level.

1. I doubt what you are referring to as "true socialism" is what Dan is writing about.

2. I have many friends from Eastern Europe and the former USSR. Most of them tell me they had very happy childhoods. Nobody has mentioned torture or suffering. That's way in the past.

3. You are mixing socialism with totalitarianism.

4. It's effects, not affects.

After the Bolshevik revolution, and subsequent Stalin purges, in ushered the great Utopian governance of Socialism. Credible estimates conclude 25 (some estimate 35) million people were murdered for this noble cause. Some were summarily executed, some tortured to death, others starved but all suffered brutal unimaginable pain and suffering. Each individually, absorbed enough misery to permanently emotionally scar a person for 3 lifetimes. Collectively, the pain endured is sufficient emotional energy to suck the vacuum out of a moderately sized black hole. This unfathomable brutality, ruthlessness and utter disregard for the individual.... for what? For Socialism. This is no such thing as "forms" of Socialism. The only thing protecting an us from this evil are the rights, liberties and freedoms granted to us by law, which slowly shrink from assault over time.

Proclaim to those 25 million brutalized, shattered and tortured innocent souls, socialism is not a bad thing... tell the parents of the children dying in their school chairs from malnutrition in Venezuela about confirmation bias. Proclaim to them your insight and wisdom, how they know not what they suffer from.

FP says

Strategist says

Show us where socialism without capitalism and democracy has worked?


In my view 100% capitalism or close will fail. 100% socialism close will fail.

you answered your own questiion

OK, but in Dan's view socialism is the best thing that happened since sliced bread. Capitalism is the worst and results in failure.

Strategist says

OK, but in Dan's view socialism is the best thing that happened since sliced bread.

I've never said anything that could even remotely be interpreted as that by anyone who isn't batshit crazy.

I've said that no society could be ran without socialism, and that's true, because with zero socialism, you have no funding for public goods and services like defense, roadways, sewers, police, etc.

Also, I've said that socialism is an economic tactic, not an economic system. There's a big difference between the two.

Strategist says

Capitalism is the worst and results in failure.

I've never said it was the worse. Feudalism is the worst. But capitalism and communism and feudalism are all bad for the exact same reasons including, but not limited to, the fact that one of these allow for free markets.

Then again, even though I've given you the definition of capitalism and explained it a hundred times on this site, you probably still have no idea what it is and think that the above statement is self-contradictory. The first step to learning is listening.

Dan8267 says

Strategist says

OK, but in Dan's view socialism is the best thing that happened since sliced bread.

I've never said anything that could even remotely be interpreted as that by anyone who isn't batshit crazy.

I've said that no society could be ran without socialism, and that's true, because with zero socialism, you have no funding for public goods and services like defense, roadways, sewers, police, etc.

Also, I've said that socialism is an economic tactic, not an economic system. There's a big difference between the two.

Strategist says

Capitalism is the worst and results in failure.

I've never said it was the worse. Feudalism is the worst. But capitalism and communism and feudalism are all bad for the exact same reasons including, but not limited to, the fact th...

OK, here is a test:
1. Name 2 bad things about socialism.
2. Name 2 good things about capitalism.
3. Why has Venezuela failed so miserably.

FP says

sagacious1 says

For those who have experienced the affects of true Socialism, the post in quote is sickening at a visceral level.

1. I doubt what you are referring to as "true socialism" is what Dan is writing about.

2. I have many friends from Eastern Europe and the former USSR. Most of them tell me they had very happy childhoods. Nobody has mentioned torture or suffering. That's way in the past.

3. You are mixing socialism with totalitarianism.

4. It's effects, not affects.

I am indeed referring to true Socialism, as was ushered in and established in the former Soviet Union (the gold standard for Socialism). It's nice you have friends in those areas. My father was born in a Soviet Gulag (Tomsk, Siberia to be precise). We lost our entire family to torture, execution and brutalization, along with as many as 25 million other innocent people. It never ceases to amaze me how that many people can be tortured and murdered and few are aware it, or why it occurred. It does explain the general naivety of the average American. However, history is not lost to me for obvious reasons. My mother was born in Eastern Europe (Poland) and suffered as well, yet was able survive with her family intact. In essence they suffered under perhaps the 2 most evil people in recent history (Hitler and Stalin). Yes for some this seems a long time ago, though both my parents are still living. We have relatives in the former Eastern block countries, and I had opportunity to visit while still under Soviet rule...it was not a pleasant existence. I can speak of facts regarding Socialism that I'm aware of. It is first hand experience...and it is ruthless and brutal. Of course, you are correct....it is effect not affect.

Strategist says

OK, here is a test:

1. Name 2 bad things about socialism.

2. Name 2 good things about capitalism.

3. Why has Venezuela failed so miserably.

All good ideas can have bad implementations. The excessive amounts we are spending on the military is a bad use of socialism. That's 1.

The scope of socialism could also be incorrectly set. The roads should not be paid for by property taxes but rather by automobile usage by mileage, or if that's not practical, by a gas tax, although that gets even less accurate with purely electric vehicles. Scope the socialization of costs to the users of the goods or services, not to a larger group. That's 2.

As for naming two good things about capitalism, it cannot be done honestly. There is nothing about separating the wealth creators from the owners and giving owners all the power over the distribution of wealth. If you name anything you think is a good thing about capitalism, I'll show you that it is not something created by capitalism but rather by something else like commerce or free markets.

Why has Venezuela failed so miserably? Multiple reasons.
1. Totalitarianism
2. Religion
3. Single major product: oil. And oil prices have collapsed.
4. Corruption
5. Bad implementation of policies
6. Communism, which in its purest state is just like capitalism in its purest state, control of all resources by the few.
7. Quantitative easing, a.k.a., inflation, printing money, currency debasement. Venezuela has done a lot of this.

And that's just off the top of my head. If I studied the issue, I could probably come up with more reasons and more details and subtleties.

Again, take my challenge. Name one thing good about capitalism, and I'll show you why capitalism doesn't cause that.

sagacious1, again, let's distinguish socialism from totalitarianism.

I have been to Yugoslavia, Czechoslovakia, Bulgaria and Hungary in the 80's and it wasn't that bad there. Actually it was nice. Poland of course had problems in the 80's. I've heard things were not so good in Romania too. The gulags were much earlier.

Dan8267 says

Why has Venezuela failed so miserably? Multiple reasons.

If I may add one more - sabotage.

Strategist says

Instead, they waste their time and the time of others by trying to convert others.

Perhaps they understand something that you do not: that a change of circumstances is meaningless beside a change of heart. If people continue on with their self destructive ways, nobody can ever help them! All a helpful person can ever manage is to be sucked down into their morass. If you've ever known a drug addict, you'll understand this truth. There's absolutely no helping them until they change their ways. So the church attempts to rehabilitate them from the core of their being, their heart (subconscious). There are far too many success stories to discount this method of saving someone so flippantly.

sagacious1 says

FP says

sagacious1 says

For those who have experienced the affects of true Socialism, the post in quote is sickening at a visceral level.

1. I doubt what you are referring to as "true socialism" is what Dan is writing about.

I frequently encounter this position and I find it alarming. I would respectfully suggest, any notion of good "forms" of Socialism is nothing more than part and parcel of an ugly diseased organ of evil governance. That these "forms" are merely stages, enroute to it's ultimate and complete consummation. I feel badly for the people of Venezuela, yet they bear some responsibility for their circumstance insomuch as they had a choice, and of their own free will chose this system, unlike those in Russia. It was to be a good thing, it was progressive and modern. It was to be Utopia for the people.They were duped and had they imagined this outcome, it's fair to say they may have chosen otherwise. Now their choices are relegated to the system, who views the individual disposable and the "community" priority. The veil has been lifted in Venezuela, and the true face of Socialism revealed. Man cannot be trusted with this evil ideology, as exampled by Maduro's callous quip of the "Venezuelan weigh loss program" describing the starvation of his people.

Having recently discovered this forum, I do enjoy the discussions and sharing of views....I am thankful for it, and that I have the liberty and freedom to express myself without fear of retribution. I don't feel we as Americans fully comprehend the significance of that singular act....as though it will always be granted us. Yet, I have expounded far more than typical for me and especially on this subject. At this time, I must step back from this topic specifically...it's simply too mentally exhausting.

They don't need forgiveness, they made their own bed. Kind of like liberals who are screwing America and think they got virtue.

FP says

FortWayne says

Socialists ran out of other people's money

Love and Forgiveness "I only read one book" ran out of things to say

Dan8267 says

Again, take my challenge. Name one thing good about capitalism, and I'll show you why capitalism doesn't cause that.

Innovation. Capitalism has the ability to innovate and bring new products to the masses.Products that improve the lives of billions.
e.g. Smart phones, electricity, airplanes, computers, and virtually everything you use.

FortWayne says

They don't need forgiveness, they made their own bed. Kind of like liberals who are screwing America and think they got virtue.

FP says

FortWayne says

Socialists ran out of other people's money

Love and Forgiveness "I only read one book" ran out of things to say

I see my nickname for you is spot on.

Strategist says

Innovation. Capitalism has the ability to innovate and bring new products to the masses.Products that improve the lives of billions.

e.g. Smart phones, electricity, airplanes, computers, and virtually everything you use.

Glad you pointed out that all these things are made in America

Socialism is really great for creating poor people, lots of em.

Not sure if you've looked out your window lately, but capitalism does a pretty good job of creating poor people too.

That's created by socialist policies and stupid liberal behavior. And even that is nothing compared to the rest of the world where their struggle is far worse.

joeyjojojunior says

Not sure if you've looked out your window lately, but capitalism does a pretty good job of creating poor people too.

joeyjojojunior says

Not sure if you've looked out your window lately, but capitalism does a pretty good job of creating poor people too.

In socialism, everyone is poor. Except for the politicians, and their military.

Actually capitalism absolutely creates poverty--socialistic policies are what governments create to reduce the poverty that is naturally created under capitalism. Capitalism naturally creates enormous wealth disparity and extreme poverty.

joeyjojojunior says

Actually capitalism absolutely creates poverty--socialistic policies are what governments create to reduce the poverty that is naturally created under capitalism. Capitalism naturally creates enormous wealth disparity and extreme poverty.

In Venezuela the peasants are starving. "Let them eat cake" in America.
And that is exactly what the people of Venezuela pray to do. Go to America, the land where peasants eat cake.