patrick.net

marcus says

I'm not arguing that religion is a precondition for having values that allow civilization to work. It's just that we don't know that it is not the case.

Nonsense. We know very well that religion is not a precondition for values.

On an individual level yes, but as an entire culture ? What successful cultures do you want to cite that didn't have religion ? Modern western culture as it developed through Europe and America certainly can be said to have a religious foundation supporting our values. But it has grown and matured. Great American philosophical thinkers such as Emerson and Thoreau didn't reject religion all together, but they had a much more sophisticated approach to it. This idea of a more sophisticated "spirituality" that is not based on a sky daddy goes way back.

Confirmed suicide bombing. 99.9% chance it was Islam at this point.

Now the question is how many more people have to die before European countries collectively do something about their Muslim problem?

Dan8267 says

Religion is exactly what is motivating people to blow other people up.

Toxic tribalism can come in many forms. The most murderous group in recent history are the communists, who were united in their atheism.

Perhaps we should ban atheism.

https://www.ted.com/talks/jonathan_haidt_humanity_s_stairway_to_self_transcendence

Loyalty to a group has proven more evolutionary advantageous than logical thinking. People will always join into groups that make no sense to outsiders, especially if they have a unified enemy.

More sites are running the owys663 Tweets:

Know Your Meme

It's interesting to watch the reports via Google News. So far, it's mainly outside the NATO disinformation bubble. East Asian, Indian, and Eastern European publications have it, but the NATO bubble is waiting for official confirmation from sources that might no longer be available since Twitter is deleting accounts. The perpetrators get deleted, so they can't claim responsibility, so MSM report no official claim of responsibility. I had previously underestimated Google News, because its linked sites are heavily influenced by PR campaigns, but now I see it's valuable for precisely that reason: it shows what stories are being promoted, and what stories are being suppressed.

marcus says

What successful cultures do you want to cite that didn't have religion ?

Perhaps the Internet doesn't work where you are, or nobody has taught you how to use a search engine. You might consider China (61% atheist, 6% religious), and several other successful countries have wide majorities who are not religious. You don't know what "we always had" unless you are a lot older and better read than you appear to be.

Within American culture, religion correlates with (on average) lower IQ, less education, and less ethical, more selfish behavior. Those are aggregate statistics of course, subject to individual variation, which a math teacher can try to explain to you. It seems notable though that a guy who calls everyone "dimbulbs" and doesn't get vaccinated advocates beliefs that correlate with lower IQ, less education, and less ethical behavior.

Returning to the specific topic of the thread, people who advocate spreading Islam are advocating more such attacks in the west. The Muslim world had even more lethal suicide bombings in recent days, e.g. another 50 in Basra on Friday, but they don't even make much news anymore because they are so commonplace. When someone tells you he wants to bring Islam to the west, he is telling you either (a) he wants to kill western teenagers and young adults and (b) he wants to poison and destroy western liberalism by injecting the most illiberal and lethal religion on earth, or (c) he's delusional.

TwoScoopsMcGee says

Don't #PrayForManchester. Say #NoMoreManchesters

We tried these tactics repeatedly and they demonstrably don't work:

11. Bring back Hitler

carrieon says

TwoScoopsMcGee says

Don't #PrayForManchester. Say #NoMoreManchesters

We tried these tactics repeatedly and they demonstrably don't work:

11. Bring back Hitler

The left are #rorschachracists

In all seriousness, this would go a long way towards tamping down the violence.
Or, it could start WWIII, which would be over in a nuclear second...

APOCALYPSEFUCK_is_ADORABLE says

The whole world needs to put cartoons of Mohammed sucking goat dicks on every single web page and put bacon sandwiches on every single menu by law. What am I missing here by way of institutional insults to the cult?

Considering all the world wars started over there, the odds are they do nothing.
they seem to like and invite death and destruction...

epitaph says

Confirmed suicide bombing. 99.9% chance it was Islam at this point.

Now the question is how many more people have to die before European countries collectively do something about their Muslim problem?

curious2 says

You might consider China (61% atheist, 6% religious),

Most internet sources put the percentage of atheists in china under 50%. Perhaps those answering that particular survey thought it was by the government and that they were supposed to say atheist. Several souces I checked put the highest at 47%.

But I don't consider China a successful culture. They exist, and have huge influence in the world, but a majority of the people are miserable.

curious2 says

advocates beliefs that correlate with lower IQ, less education, and less ethical behavior.

You'e such an arrogant small minded hateful and little person. I'm not advocating for beliefs. But I am agreeing with Jordan Peterson, that the values of western culture are not independent from religion.

Each of your sources were extremely weak. Especially the surveys that asked people if religion was an important part of their daily life. Wtf ?

Please don't even go back and try to understand my comment, you're wasting your time. And the (Patnet) world gets it, you're a hateful tiny pathetic little person, maybe some self help courses or books about personal growth are in order ? Let me know if you'd like me to recommend something.

marcus says

On an individual level yes, but as an entire culture ? What successful cultures do you want to cite that didn't have religion ?

curious2 already answered your question partially, but let me add:

1. How do you define a successful culture?
2. There were and are countries where religion did not play a significant role. People there had and have values.
3. The number of atheists and agnostics is under-represented. For example, if you ask my father, he'll tell you that he is a christian. But nothing in his actions reflects reflects this. He goes to churches only as a tourists and he has not read neither the old nor the new testament.
4. If individuals can have values without a religion, why can't whole societies?
5. Considering the variety of religions, what exactly is the common among all them that attributes to the believers values?

I can see that some common set of beliefs/ideology is beneficial (perhaps essential) for uniting a society. But it does not have to be belief in supernatural powers (magic).

Dan8267 says

Like I said, you don't believe in freedom of religion any more than I do. The difference is that I'm honest about it.

I also believe in preventing terrorists from blowing Americans up.

FortWayne says

I also believe in preventing terrorists from blowing Americans up.

What does this even mean?

I believe in pissing after drinking beer.

FP says

But it does not have to be belief in supernatural powers (magic).

I agree, but two things

1) There are modern religions that aren't like that. Even with many old well established protestant religions this is supernatural stuff is mostly believed by the children only.

2) I didn't say it was a requirement, but only that the society and values that most of us want do not come independent from religion. R at least we have no proof that it does. Watch the last minute of the Jordan Peterson video I posted. Or maybe the whole thing if you can spare a few minutes.

epitaph says

Confirmed suicide bombing. 99.9% chance it was Islam at this point.

Now the question is how many more people have to die before European countries collectively do something about their Muslim problem?

I'm guessing at least tens of thousands more random innocent Westerners will die before they begin to elect leaders who will tell the truth about Islam and enact rational immigration policies.

Obligatory:

rando says

epitaph says

Confirmed suicide bombing. 99.9% chance it was Islam at this point.

Now the question is how many more people have to die before European countries collectively do something about their Muslim problem?

I'm guessing at least tens of thousands more random innocent Westerners will die before they begin to elect leaders who will tell the truth about Islam and enact rational immigration policies.

I think Americans are done and it's a part of why Trump got elected. Euros are apparently different and have minimal will to fight.

CBOEtrader says

The most murderous group in recent history are the communists, who were united in their atheism.

Like clockwork, the pro-delusion side repeats this debunked lie. Tom Selleck and Charlie Chaplin are the most dangerous despots ever.

And all these things, from the ancient to today, are intrinsic to religion. The hatred of gays, the torturing of religious opponents, the destruction of knowledge, the suppression of women are all done specifically because the religion demands it. In contrast, Stalin's and Mao's evil was solely due to imperialistic greed, not atheism, and is not supported by atheists or even acknowledged as atheist philosophy.

So the fact that Stalin was an atheist is as relevant as the fact that he had a mustache. But when the pope persuades millions of Africans not to wear condoms or Charles Worley incites men to murder gays and lesbians, religion is at the very center of those actions.

FortWayne says

Dan8267 says

Like I said, you don't believe in freedom of religion any more than I do. The difference is that I'm honest about it.

I also believe in preventing terrorists from blowing Americans up.

The belief in preventing terrorists from blowing Americans up directly contradicts the belief in freedom of religion. Their religion, their god, demands blowing up infidels.

I believe that morality is a natural instinct tied to empathy, and we evolved with this ability because groups that had this empathy for their peers survived better than groups that did not have it. Watching a 2 year old with no awareness of religion is enough to teach us that this empathy is innate.

Religions usually codify it, but people and groups vary a lot, so the version that gets codified is different. Also, religions are also means to control people, so the rules in a religion do not reflect the underlying empathy morality one for one. They more or less include a morality that resonates and controls in a way that is convenient to the authors.

So, I don't think that religion is needed in any way for morality. In fact, the way that religions are written and used, they get in the way of what morality should be. On the other hand, some of the arguments against Marcus don't make sense. How atheists behave in a society like the US doesn't prove that a society without religion would be moral. Religion was professed and understood by most of founding fathers. It has been around and permeated the beliefs of legislators and judges who have written and interpreted our laws. So, even though I'm an atheist, I didn't grow up in the absence of religion.

FP says

Strategist says

Islam threatens our lives,

more so than the climate change deniers??

I don't know, but we need to do something for both. Solar power will take care of climate change, but how do we solve the Islamic problem?

Fucking White Male says

I think Americans are done and it's a part of why Trump got elected.

Trump has been singing a different tune since he started this trip. It's anybody's guess where he'll go from here. You are right, though, that the US voted against Islamic immigration and the UK voted that way as well.

marcus says

On an individual level yes, but as an entire culture ? What successful cultures do you want to cite that didn't have religion ?

Every failed culture also had religion.

Dan8267 says

CBOEtrader says

The most murderous group in recent history are the communists, who were united in their atheism.

Atheism does not ask for innocent people to be murdered. Only religion does that.

Strategist says

Are you implying we are pissing off the Muslims? If so, you living in a fairy tale.

Actually we are winning friends by killing innocents in stone age,third world countries,where we have no business,with flying instruments of death. It's great that Republicans stopped Obama in Libya & his other military adventure.

Strategist says

Solar power will take care of climate change,

Climate change is real?

HEY YOU says

Strategist says

Are you implying we are pissing off the Muslims? If so, you living in a fairy tale.

Actually we are winning friends by killing innocents in stone age,third world countries,where we have no business,with flying instruments of death. It's great that Republicans stopped Obama in Libya & his other military adventure.

Do you think they will stop killing us if we completely got out of the Middle East and let ISIS take over the whole Mid East?

HEY YOU says

Strategist says

Solar power will take care of climate change,

Climate change is real?

I don't know to what extent, but i do know pollution is real, getting worse, and MUST be stopped.

YesYNot says

people and groups vary a lot

But human nature is universal. The human nature of the flat earth society of 3,000 years ago is the same as the human nature of today regardless of the scientific and technological advancements.

YesYNot says

So, even though I'm an atheist, I didn't grow up in the absence of religion.

The most influential atheists today belong to the oldest contingent of the Baby Boom generation--Christopher Hitchens ('49), Bill Nye ('55), Bill Maher ('56), Jon Stewart ('62), Richard Dawkins ('41)--were more than likely reared in religious traditions, usually Protestant, Catholic or Jewish. It became a litany, a rite of passage, if I heard this one time, I it heard a million times: Oh, I was raised in a religious family, went to church, but as soon as I left for college I left all that behind, this being of course the late '60s, early '70s during the breakdown of long-standing institutions--family, education, churches as they floundered and sought "alternative lifestyles". Now these people, in their 50's, 60's and older are in the most influential positions of media, education and entertainment and can propagandize from those soap boxes.

If our society had the solidarity like that which existed between 1939 and 1945, this Islam stuff would be brought to a decisive end. The people of that generation were unapologetically religious as Christians and Jews and their faiths expressed in every form of media that existed, including the movies. Can you imagine the reaction today if a president led the nation in prayer as FDR did in 1944 (hubba hubba):

www.youtube.com/embed/VibZVn41pwk

Or Gracie Fields singing The Lord's Prayer to service men and women in 1943 was totally appropriate:

www.youtube.com/embed/Inry2Mx9qRo

Dan8267 says

Their religion, their god, demands blowing up infidels.

Only that of Islam. People don't fear Christianity, they just hate it.

CBOEtrader says

The most murderous group in recent history are the communists

the most murderous group in recent history are the capitalists who started 2 world + many other wars

They hate us for our freedom and our success.

P N Dr Lo R says

Dan8267 says

Their religion, their god, demands blowing up infidels.

Only that of Islam. People don't fear Christianity, they just hate it.

Strategist says

but how do we solve the Islamic problem?

FP says

the most murderous group in recent history are the capitalists who started 2 world

And this widely held but naive attitude is why the West is under repeated attack today.