patrick.net

I love when people cry about tax law and claim "Oh I'm paying 30%, and that guy is paying only 20%". Well, learn about the tax law and take advantage of it yourself. No one is banned from learning how tax law works, and seeing where you can reduce your tax exposure. I'm not a mega billionaire and I don't pay 30% in taxes (my 2016 return I paid an effective 20% rate).

But then again, it's MUCH easier to say "Oh that guy is paying less, he must be doing something unfair! Oligarchs, Koch Brothers, Blaarrrwaahahhh!"

Grow up people.

"These people should fix their own fucking life. Get a job, do something, stop bitching about other people. It makes them look like weak ass bitches when they spend all their time complaining about other people all the time. "

Give me an effing break. Exactly nobody is saying that.

I know that's the strawman you enjoy knocking down, but it's complete BS and I'm pretty sure you know it as you've been corrected multiple times on it.

Nobody is complaining about Bill Gates, or Warren Buffett, or anybody that earns their millions through true innovation or hard work.

What people are trying to fix is the tax code number 1. You talk a lot about hard work. Shouldn't labor be valued more by a society than capital? Earned income should be taxed at a lower rate than unearned--don't you agree?? Tax code should be MUCH more progressive.

Let's start there and then we can talk about some of the other ways to improve the economy. I suspect we'll agree on some of them.

joeyjojojunior says

Nobody is complaining about Bill Gates, or Warren Buffett, or anybody that earns their millions through true innovation or hard work.

Uh, that's exactly who they are talking about in that article (as well as the Top 20%). Did you even read the article?

Also, why should labor be "more valued" than capital? Tell me the reasons why, and how it helps the economy. Tell me why the tax code should be "much more progessive" and what it would fix. Don't make claims without any rational. Put some practicality behind your theory. Don't be lazy.

"Uh, that's exactly who they are talking about in that article (as well as the Top 20%). Did you even read the article?"

Yep, and I understood it. Bemoaning the system is NOT complaining about Bill Gates. Can you really not understand this? It's not even that nuanced.

"Also, why should labor be "more valued" than capital?"

For the same reason you continually espouse the "hard work" it took for you to make so much money. As a society we should value hard work over laziness. As an economy, we should tax labor more than capital to avoid wealth inequality. When the rich can do better with passive investments, jobs aren't created, unemployment rises, inequality rises, and the economy goes to crap.

Tax code should be more progressive to fix inequality. Putting more $$ back in the hands of people who spend them will be a huge spur to economic activity. Money velocity will increase. Growth rates will increase. Jobs will increase. I didn't think explanation was needed as it's basic stuff.

joeyjojojunior says

"Also, why should labor be "more valued" than capital?"

For the same reason you continually espouse the "hard work" it took for you to make so much money. As a society we should value hard work over laziness. As an economy, we should tax labor more than capital to avoid wealth inequality.

Highly skilled labor can be valued more than capital. But what value can you expect from a 9th grade school dropout?

joeyjojojunior says

When the rich can do better with passive investments, jobs aren't created, unemployment rises, inequality rises, and the economy goes to crap.

Not true. Capital plays an important role in creating jobs. You need capital to build factories, homes, cars etc.

"Not true. Capital plays an important role in creating jobs. You need capital to build factories, homes, cars etc."

When did I say you didn't need capital? Read my statement again. It's absolutely true.

"Highly skilled labor can be valued more than capital. But what value can you expect from a 9th grade school dropout?"

Hopefully everyone can finish high school at least, but strength, stamina are obvious answers. And many, many jobs can be taught to anyone with our without higher education. But that's not my point--society should tax capital higher than labor. It should reward hard work over laziness.

joeyjojojunior says

"Highly skilled labor can be valued more than capital. But what value can you expect from a 9th grade school dropout?"

Hopefully everyone can finish high school at least, but strength, stamina are obvious answers. And many, many jobs can be taught to anyone with our without higher education. But that's not my point--society should tax capital higher than labor. It should reward hard work over laziness.

Why should capital be taxed higher? Let the free markets decide the worth of each.
So someone working hard to save money for a rainy day by buying CD's or stocks, is now lazy?

joeyjojojunior says

Yep, and I understood it. Bemoaning the system is NOT complaining about Bill Gates. Can you really not understand this? It's not even that nuanced.

I ask again, did you actually read the article? The article was not about "bemoaning" the system. It was complaining about Top 20% having unfair advantages like a house in a nice zip code.

You didn't read the article, that's okay. Let's move on.

joeyjojojunior says

For the same reason you continually espouse the "hard work" it took for you to make so much money. As a society we should value hard work over laziness. As an economy, we should tax labor more than capital to avoid wealth inequality. When the rich can do better with passive investments, jobs aren't created, unemployment rises, inequality rises, and the economy goes to crap.

Society does value hard work over laziness, this is proven by the fact that there are lower middle class, and poor. If you are lazy in America, you will not succeed.

Now onto the rubbish point about "passive investments". Passive investments do not cause unemployment and inequality. Unemployment is caused by a lack of marketable skill. The unemployment rate for doctors, tech specialist, lawyers, pharmacist is in the low single digits. None of those people are being sent to the unemployment line because of 'passive investments'.

Tax code should be more progressive to fix inequality. Putting more $$ back in the hands of people

e.g - Let's redistribute earned wealth to people who did not earn it. Socialism. It's been tried before, it sucks. Even the biggest Scandinavian countries who have parts of socialism in their economy cannot touch the GDP growth of the United States. If you want socialism, why don't you move to a socialist country and try it out for a few years? Or put your money where your mouth is. Write a check to the US Treasury with 20% more of your income. Be the ideology you preach.

P N Dr Lo R says

Equality in any realm has never nor will ever exist. There are too many variables for it to ever exist.

Don't preach about the obvious. What are you going to do about it? Make it worse or better.
I am complaining the 1% is making it worse.

joeyjojojunior says

Nobody is complaining about Bill Gates, or Warren Buffett, or anybody that earns their millions through true innovation or hard work.

Did you read my post at all? We should be rewarded for our hard work and success by the use of our infrastructure and education system.
And what is wrong enjoying it? The reward is what motivates us. Don't talk about the obvious. It is a waste of time.

My point is that when these people get rich or become successful, they don't want to give return to the government. So why should Warren Buffet pay less than 15% tax while I have to pay more? It is not fair. or is it? Are you saying the hard work and success also equates to less tax you have pay? I don't get it. You are not Warren Buffet. Then why are you protecting his asset?

Nobody says

I am complaining the 1% is making it worse.

One of the most obvious culprits is the level of executive remuneration when CEOs and such get multiples of millions in stock options, then probably pensions when no other human being in private companies get a pension. When the ratio was about 40 to 1, a CEO could relate to what we used to call the rank and file, that usually referred to unions, but I mean just the regular employees. Once the difference becomes 400% there's no way a top level executive can relate to an office worker or even a relatively highly paid accountant. An article in the WSJ today said that more than government policies, just people being able to have good jobs where companies have a care about their employees makes more difference than anything. It was in the 90's that we began hearing at our company and I'm sure all others "we have to create value for the stockholder", as though we hadn't been creating value for them from time immemorial. What they really meant was that if they could give the stock a boost in price by laying off people they would bloody well do it whether the company was struggling or not.

Nobody says

Did you read my post at all? We should be rewarded for our hard work and success by the use of our infrastructure and education system.

And what is wrong enjoying it? The reward is what motivates us. Don't talk about the obvious. It is a waste of time.

My point is that when these people get rich or become successful, they don't want to give return to the government. So why should Warren Buffet pay less than 15% tax while I have to pay more? It is not fair. or is it? Are you saying the hard work and success also equates to less tax you have pay? I don't get it. You are not Warren Buffet. Then why are you protecting his asset?

Hey--you're singing to the choir man.

Strategist says

bob2356 says

You are paying far more to corporate welfare than what goes to mommies and kids. Yet not a peep out of you about it. Just blather about socialism.

Myth. Bottom line........Corporations end up paying a lot of taxes.

Tax breaks are given at times to encourage what may be a necessity for society. e.g. Agriculture and alternative energy tax breaks.

What happened to true capitalism? You just said government should pick winners and losers. Which is it that you believe in?

Lots of taxes? Lots? You are saying 5% of federal revenue down from 20% is lots of taxes? You are paying a lot more for corporate welfare than mommies and babies. http://www.truth-out.org/news/item/19844-food-stamps-are-affordable-corporate-welfare-is-not

Why do you think the tax code is 75,000 pages long? There are thousands and thousands of little goodies in there. Plus direct grants and subsidies. Plus federal funds used for supporting things like logging roads and oil drilling infrastructure. Plus plus plus.

Nobody says

My point is that when these people get rich or become successful, they don't want to give return to the government. So why should Warren Buffet pay less than 15% tax while I have to pay more? It is not fair. or is it? Are you saying the hard work and success also equates to less tax you have pay? I don't get it. You are not Warren Buffet. Then why are you protecting his asset?

If Warren Buffer is not cheating tax law, why do you give a shit? You can take the same tax shelters yourself. He's not doing anything illegal.

Oh, it's somehow not cool that he can take advantage of the same tax laws that apply to all of us because he's ultra rich? What if he only made $1 million a year like Bernie "I pay 13% tax" Sanders. Then it's all good?

You're basically arguing that success should be penalized.

Goran_K says

I ask again, did you actually read the article? The article was not about "bemoaning" the system. It was complaining about Top 20% having unfair advantages like a house in a nice zip code.

You didn't read the article, that's okay. Let's move on.

I read it and understood it. My comment was about your post, however. The part I quoted.Goran_K says

Society does value hard work over laziness, this is proven by the fact that there are lower middle class, and poor. If you are lazy in America, you will not succeed.

bwahahahaha. Wow are you naïve. Open your eyes, man. Does it make you feel better to pretend that the lower middle class and poor are all lazy?

Goran_K says

Passive investments do not cause unemployment and inequality. Unemployment is caused by a lack of marketable skill. The unemployment rate for doctors, tech specialist, lawyers, pharmacist is in the low single digits. None of those people are being sent to the unemployment line because of 'passive investments'

Passive investments absolutely cause inequality and unemployment. You need to think broadly--if all the unemployed leaned a marketable skill, then there WOULD be high unemployment in Drs, tech specialists, lawyers, etc. Aggregate demand is certainly reduced when inequality is at high levels as rich folks spend a much smaller percentage of their income than do lower middle class or the poor. Lower demand = fewer jobs.

Goran_K says

e.g - Let's redistribute earned wealth to people who did not earn it. Socialism. It's been tried before, it sucks. Even the biggest Scandinavian countries who have parts of socialism in their economy cannot touch the GDP growth of the United States. If you want socialism, why don't you move to a socialist country and try it out for a few years? Or put your money where your mouth is. Write a check to the US Treasury with 20% more of your income. Be the ideology you preach.

We already do this drama queen. I'm saying lets do it better. Like the US did in 1950. Or was that socialism too?

Goran_K says

If Warren Buffer is not cheating tax law, why do you give a shit? You can take the same tax shelters yourself. He's not doing anything illegal.

He's saying those shelters are bad policy. Let's change the laws. Seriously--how can you not see this simple point.

Goran_K says

You're basically arguing that success should be penalized.

bwahahaha. So, saying that a millionaire should pay the same tax rate as someone making $40K is PENALIZING him??

Are you effing kidding me???

Goran_K says

You're basically arguing that success should be penalized.

Don't interpret and assume. The success must be rewarded. No, they are not breaking a law. Don't be so stupid and ignorant. The rich can change the law anyway they want to. They can make us go to war. They can deceive us into thinking that giving the tax credit to the rich would some how make the middle class wealthier. You are the prime example. I will say it again, cause this is not going through your thick skull. If you are not Warren Buffet, why are you so concerned about changing the law to tax Warren Buffer more? It is not about punishment or penalty. Why should tax be? The current tax system is unusually obscured to enrich the 1%. I am saying let's change it, so everyone is taxed equally.

joeyjojojunior says

He's saying those shelters are bad policy. Let's change the laws. Seriously--how can you not see this simple point.

Goran is an idiot.

Strategist says

Highly skilled labor can be valued more than capital. But what value can you expect from a 9th grade school dropout?

No it's a moral question. Hard work is always better than lazyness. And that's that.

Strategist says

Not true. Capital plays an important role in creating jobs. You need capital to build factories, homes, cars etc.

Capital has a technical role, like a hammer, it doesn't detract from morality.

Goran_K says

If Warren Buffer is not cheating tax law, why do you give a shit? You can take the same tax shelters yourself. He's not doing anything illegal.

Tax shelters may not be illegal, in that case they're just immoral.

Heraclitusstudent says

Tax shelters may not be illegal, in that case they're just immoral.

OK, Goran is an idiot. But the tax shelters are not immoral, either. Think why we are giving the 1% the tax shelter? It was supposed to help the economy at the same time distribute the wealth. The theory is that everyone gets wealthy. Everyone is happy. Well, you know what happened. Less tax revenue, no more funding for the school. No more investment into kids and their future. This is hurting the economy, cause we have dwindling domestic skilled labor. Go to any companies. Do you see more home grown employees or foreign employees with accent? Our schools are educating the rich foreigners, and our kids are getting less and less opportunities. That's what I am talking about.

Liberal logic...if you have more than me it's racism and oppression that caused this.

Heraclitusstudent says

Strategist says

Highly skilled labor can be valued more than capital. But what value can you expect from a 9th grade school dropout?

No it's a moral question. Hard work is always better than lazyness. And that's that.

I can't dispute your statement. Hard work is always valued and respected more than laziness. However, a school drop out is not likely to have any marketable skill, unless they develop some on the job skills and become a plumber or something.

@Goran

Simple policy question. 15% tax rate on capitals gains and dividends vs 39.6% on wages. Why is someone with 25M net worth sitting in S&P index fund making 500K a year in dividends (assuming 2% yield) only paying 75k in taxes while a hard working professional earning 500K is paying closer to 150-170K in taxes? That looks like socialism for the rich guy.

tr6 says

@Goran

Simple policy question. 15% tax rate on capitals gains and dividends vs 39.6% on wages. Why is someone with 25M net worth sitting in S&P index fund making 500K a year in dividends (assuming 2% yield) only paying 75k in taxes while a hard working professional earning 500K is paying closer to 150-170K in taxes? That looks like socialism for the rich guy.

I think most people do have a problem with the 39.6% being high, not with 15% being low. I think wages should not be taxes more than 10% ever. I'd prefer a 0% tax on wages.
But you can ask the liberals, who just want to spend spend and spend more for high taxes.

Government collects 50cents of every dollar earned though taxes, and it's in the red constantly. Fucking insane, stop doing same shit and expecting different result! Stop taxing us.

tr6 says

Simple policy question. 15% tax rate on capitals gains and dividends vs 39.6% on wages. Why is someone with 25M net worth sitting in S&P index fund making 500K a year in dividends (assuming 2% yield) only paying 75k in taxes while a hard working professional earning 500K is paying closer to 150-170K in taxes? That looks like socialism for the rich guy.

Dividends are taxed at 15% because corporations have already paid full taxes on their earnings. Dividends are again taxed to the owners. It's a double taxation issue, which is why dividends are taxed less.

Goran_K says

Seriously, I challenge anyone to read this conclusion from Annie Lowrey, and not see how this author is just some loser who is jealous of people who actually accomplished something in life, unlike her, because they made good decisions and she didn't and now she can't make $150,000 a year because of "unfair advantages".

Members of the upper-middle class, as those viral stories show and Reeves writes, love to think of themselves as members of the middle class, not as the rich. They love to think of themselves as hard workers who played fair and won what they deserved, rather than as people who were born on third and think they hit a triple. They hate to hear that the government policies they support as sensible might be torching social mobility and entrenching an elite. That elite is them.

What a bitter Marxist bitch.

Bitter and ignorant. I know several people who lived in poverty as children who grew up, earned degrees and established marketable skills and now are upper middle income earners. If you are smart enough and willing to work hard you can become upper middle class from next to nothing.

The depressing thing is that welfare recipients get better health care or at least the same health care at lower cost than many middle income workers do. This is the only reason why universal health care is possibly a better system, if someone gets free healthcare at taxpayer expense, every tax payer should have access to the same care at the same subsidized cost.

PeopleUnited says

Bitter and ignorant. I know several people who lived in poverty as children who grew up, earned degrees and established marketable skills and now are upper middle income earners. If you are smart enough and willing to work hard you can become upper middle class from next to nothing.

It's not hard being part of the top 20% if you use some common sense. Being part of the top 1% is the real challenge.

Strategist says

Dividends are taxed at 15% because corporations have already paid full taxes on their earnings

You are not answering my question. One guy gets 500K from working and another guy gets 500K from having large net worth in an index fund. One guy pays double the tax. You think it's ok.

tr6 says

Strategist says

Dividends are taxed at 15% because corporations have already paid full taxes on their earnings

You are not answering my question. One guy gets 500K from working and another guy gets 500K from having large net worth in an index fund. One guy pays double the tax. You think it's ok.

Yes. I think it's OK.

"Dividends are taxed at 15% because corporations have already paid full taxes on their earnings. Dividends are again taxed to the owners. It's a double taxation issue, which is why dividends are taxed less."

That's just a rich man's excuse for why their taxes should be less than everyone else's. Every dollar in existence has been taxed hundreds of times probably.

ThreeBays says

To hit an effective rate of 30% takes $700k+ income, i.e. well into the 1%.

You not counting FICA, just the federal rate.

FortWayne says

Government collects 50cents of every dollar earned though taxes, and it's in the red constantly. Fucking insane, stop doing same shit and expecting different result! Stop taxing us.

Stop taxing productivity and start taxing rent seeking.

"Government collects 50cents of every dollar earned though taxes, and it's in the red constantly. Fucking insane, stop doing same shit and expecting different result! Stop taxing us."

How will collecting less revenue help get out of the red? Wouldn't it be better to spend less on things like the military where we spend more than the rest of the world combined?

joeyjojojunior says

Wouldn't it be better to spend less on things like the military where we spend more than the rest of the world combined?

Fort Wayne can't make the connection between spending a trillion dollars a year on warfare / defense contractor welfare queens and taxation.

Obligatory hoarding pictures:

joeyjojojunior says

bwahahahaha. Wow are you naïve. Open your eyes, man. Does it make you feel better to pretend that the lower middle class and poor are all lazy?

It's not pretend. If you're chronically poor in the U.S, it's your own fault. Name 5 countries with better income mobility in the world.

joeyjojojunior says

bwahahaha. So, saying that a millionaire should pay the same tax rate as someone making $40K is PENALIZING him??

Are you effing kidding me???

Yes if you're arbitrarily taxing him more just because he has made more. If he's following all tax laws, why do you want to redistribute more of his money to someone else?