patrick.net

a penis still makes a person a male and a vagina a female.

There are dating sites where you can find a post-op male-to-female transgendered person. After you have sex with her, ask for ID, and have this conversation in person. Otherwise, you aren't getting anywhere: mere words on a screen don't get through your bubble of hallucinations.

39

Dan8267 2017 Jun 30, 9:20am

This would be classified as a mutant with scarlett johanssons body with Ryan Reynolds brain.

You clearly do not know what a mutation is. But even in your derogatory comment, you have just stated that there are more than two genders precisely because you have taken the position that the person is neither male nor female. Congratulations, you now have officially adopted the position of the political left. Even I wasn't expecting you to go that far left.

#lawyered

40

joshuatrio 2017 Jun 30, 9:30am

There are dating sites where you can find a post-op male-to-female transgendered person. After you have sex with her, ask for ID, and have this conversation in person.

No thank you!

But even in your derogatory comment, you have just stated that there are more than two genders precisely because you have taken the position that the person is neither male nor female.

Wrong again. For starters, this person doesn't exist, and if it did, it would be a science experiment, not a gender.

Dan... What gender we're you born with? How do you know?

Congratulations, you now have officially adopted the position of the political left.

Wait... You do realize that even the feminists (ya know, lefties) discredit the transgendered community...

41

joshuatrio 2017 Jun 30, 9:31am

Otherwise, you aren't getting anywhere: mere words on a screen don't get through your bubble of hallucinations.

Bro, since when does a penis = female?

42

curious2 2017 Jun 30, 9:33am

joshuatrio says

a penis still makes a person a male and a vagina a female.

curious2 says

There are dating sites where you can find a post-op male-to-female transgendered person. After you have sex with her, ask for ID, and have this conversation in person.

No thank you!

Then you have contradicted your prior assertion, and are a hypocrite. If she has a vagina, then according to you she's female and that's binary. Yet you would refuse her, without even seeing a photo. Evidently, you feel there is actually something different about her, and she's not entirely female even though she has what you said earlier defines a female. Thus, you concede she is non-binary.

43

joshuatrio 2017 Jun 30, 9:36am

Then you have contradicted your assertion, and are a hypocrite. If she has a vagina, then according to you she's female just like any other female.

Wrong. Let me help.

a person born with a penis still makes a person a male and a vagina a female.

People do not get to decide which gender they are born with. Cutting and hacking all day may change appearance, but not what they really are.

A dude wearing a dress does not make him a woman or a non binary gender. It's just a cross dressing dude. Complete with a penis.

Same can be said for a guy who gets his penis whacked off in exchange for a fake vagina. This person is still.... A dude with a fake vagina

One day you can become one!!!

44

Dan8267 2017 Jun 30, 9:37am

Wrong again. For starters, this person doesn't exist, and if it did, it would be a science experiment, not a gender.

Whether or not the person exists is irrelevant to the thought experiment or the fact that the thought experiment demonstrates that you hold contradictory beliefs.

Furthermore, there will be many such persons in the future who have had real sex changes in which they have the opposing genitalia than they were born with. So it's not just a thought experiment, but something that we will encounter in the not-so-distant future.

Finally, you are admitting that there are more than two genders by refusing to classify the person I described as definitively male or female. You are advocating the same exact non-binary designation the left is demanding. Ironic, huh?

Dan... What gender we're you born with?

And that gets right to the point. There is no law of physics prohibiting a person from changing the gender he or she was born with. What today's technology allows is irrelevant. There is demand for this, and eventually technology will create supply. This is how economics works. Free markets will create the exchange of money for sex changes. Men born male with penises will become females with working wombs. Women born female with vaginas will become men with working penises and testes.

45

Dan8267 2017 Jun 30, 9:38am

Then you have contradicted your prior assertion, and are a hypocrite. If she has a vagina, then according to you she's female and that's binary. Yet you would refuse her, without even seeing a photo. Evidently, you feel there is actually something different about her, and she's not entirely female even though she has what you said earlier defines a female. Thus, you concede she is non-binary.

Precisely, joshuatrio's bigoted beliefs are inherently self-contradictory. He cannot avoid the contradictions, so he simply pretends they don't exist.

46

joshuatrio 2017 Jun 30, 9:40am

Whether or not the person exists is irrelevant to the thought experiment or the fact that the thought experiment demonstrates that you hold contradictory beliefs.

No, your science experiment is just what it is. A science experiment. Not a gender.

There is no law of physics prohibiting a person from changing the gender he or she was born with.

People can cut and hack all they want, but a dude is still a dude and a chick is still a chick.

Don't let your feelings get in the way of reality Dan.

47

joshuatrio 2017 Jun 30, 9:43am

Precisely, joshuatrio's bigoted beliefs are inherently self-contradictory. He cannot avoid the contradictions, so he simply pretends they don't exist.

I was waiting for this! So now I'm a bigot because I accept reality?

Nice!

(Waiting to be called xenophobic and misogynistic next)

When a penis no longer means dude, and it means unicorn, I'll accept your reality. But until then.....

48

Dan8267 2017 Jun 30, 9:45am

No, your science experiment is just what it is. A science experiment. Not a gender.

What gender do you list on the driver's license of that person? Which of the two gendered bathrooms does that person use?

You can try to dodge the issue all you want, but these two questions still expose your contradictions.

49

Dan8267 2017 Jun 30, 9:47am

When a penis no longer means dude, and it means unicorn, I'll accept your reality. But until then.....

The Ryan Reynold brain in Scarlett Johansson's body does not have a penis since I'm pretty sure that Scarlett Johansson herself does not. I'm willing for the sake of science to confirm this. Scarlett, will you help the cause of transgenders by allowing me to conduct the study?

Anyway, since this person does not have a penis, the person would be a woman by your standards. Ergo, you have just admitted that sex changes are, at least in principle, possible.

#lawyeredAgain

50

joshuatrio 2017 Jun 30, 9:54am

What gender do you list on the driver's license of that person? Which of the two gendered bathrooms does that person use?

You can try to dodge the issue all you want, but these two questions still expose your contradictions.

Once again, your strawman does not effect reality. Get over it.

Anyway, since this person does not have a penis, the person would be a woman by your standards.

Uhhhh, did you miss this?

joshuatrio says

a person born with a penis still makes a person a male and a vagina a female.

joshuatrio says

People do not get to decide which gender they are born with. Cutting and hacking all day may change appearance, but not what they really are.

joshuatrio says

A dude wearing a dress does not make him a woman or a non binary gender. It's just a cross dressing dude. Complete with a penis.

Same can be said for a guy who gets his penis whacked off in exchange for a fake vagina. This person is still.... A dude with a fake vagina

#unicornedagain

51

joshuatrio 2017 Jun 30, 9:56am

Ergo, you have just admitted that sex changes are, at least in principle, possible

As I said before Dan,

A dude wearing a dress does not make him a woman or a non binary gender. It's just a cross dressing dude. Complete with a penis.

Same can be said for a guy who gets his penis whacked off in exchange for a fake vagina. This person is still.... A dude with a fake vagina

#triplestampdoublestamp

52 HEY YOU 2017 Jun 30, 10:00am

There are many classes of gender.
Stupid Republican men.
Stupid Republican women.
Stupid Democrat men.
Stupid Democrat women.
Other men & women that don't vote.

53

Dan8267 2017 Jun 30, 10:02am

Once again, your strawman does not effect reality. Get over it.

Calling something a straw man does not make it so. I'm demanding that you state how your policy handles a specific use case. Structurally that cannot be a straw man.

The fact that you are refusing to address that use case indicates that you are well aware of the contradictions of your bigoted position. It is thus hypocrisy for you to criticize others for what you believe to be contradictions.

Uhhhh, did you miss this?

No, and my point stands. You have admitted that sex changes are possible and that the gender listed on your birth certificate is not necessarily your current gender.

I also stated that your refusal to classify the person as unequivocally male or female demonstrates an acceptance of non-binary genders.

A dude with a fake vagina

There are many possible techniques for exchanging a penis for a fully functional vagina including, but not limited to, the brain transplant I described. Such a vagina would not be fake. If it functions as a vagina, then it is a vagina.

Of course, now we're getting into territory where your position would classify infertile women as not being female because their wombs and vaginas are incapable of supporting impregnation and birth.

54

FortWayne 2017 Jun 30, 10:04am

Crazy mental cases do crazy stupid shit, and demand we change laws to accommodate their sick reality. Sadly it's who liberal left and Democrats cater to.

55

Dan8267 2017 Jun 30, 10:09am

FortWayne says

Crazy mental cases do crazy stupid shit, and demand we change laws to accommodate their sick reality.

Again, you are thinking of Republicans and the Bush adminstration. Iraq did not have WMDs, yet your team killed a million people over it. Saddam had no ties to Al Qaeda, yet your team created ISIS by taking Saddam out of power. Obama was not from Kenya. He is a naturally born American citizen born in Hawaii. In contrast, Ted Cruz was born in Canada as a Canadian citizen to a Cuban father who was a Canadian, not American, citizen. But hey, why can't we see his long-form birth certificate?

The conservative right lives in a bubble, just like the left. You conservatives are all alike. You completely ignore reality and demand we change laws to accommodate your sick reality.

56

joshuatrio 2017 Jun 30, 10:15am

Calling something a straw man does not make it so. I'm demanding that you state how your policy handles a specific use case. Structurally that cannot be a straw man.

It's a strawman, because your nonsense does not exist and is not a reality.
Dan8267 says

The fact that you are refusing to address that use case indicates that you are well aware of the contradictions of your bigoted position.

How can I acknowledge a hypothetical science experiment as anything other than what it is? An unreal, mutant, science experiment.

Why can't you live in reality, and argue real facts with..... Real facts?

57

joshuatrio 2017 Jun 30, 10:16am

You have admitted that sex changes are possible and that the gender listed on your birth certificate is not necessarily your current gender.

Ok, now you're just lying.

Just because you have surgery doesn't change your gender. Goddamn you can't read.

Same can be said for a guy who gets his penis whacked off in exchange for a fake vagina. This person is still.... A dude with a fake vagina

#loser

58

joshuatrio 2017 Jun 30, 10:18am

What I've learned from dan:

1) I'm insecure
2) I'm a bigot
3) Anyone can be a unicorn.
4) Doctors are wrong
5) Reality is not reality
6) Hypothetical science experiments must be accepted as valid arguments and you're a bigot for siding with reality.
7) Gluing wings on little boys makes them butterflies

59

Dan8267 2017 Jun 30, 11:12am

It's a strawman, because your nonsense does not exist and is not a reality.

1. That's not what a straw man is. A straw man is a misrepresentation of your opponent's argument. I'm demanding that you show how your position handles a situation that will become common in the not-so-distant future.
2. A hypothetical situation is a perfectly valid illustration of why a position fails. If your position cannot handle possible future conditions, then your position is wrong.
3. Since we are debating principles, whether or not a particular scenario has happened is irrelevant. If a scenario can happen, then it can be used to question a principle.
4. It is cowardly to run and hide from a legitimate question your ideology cannot deal with. The honest man would simply admit the flaws in his ideology.

60

Dan8267 2017 Jun 30, 11:23am

How can I acknowledge a hypothetical science experiment as anything other than what it is?

Honestly. And you are failing at that. You don't need the thought experiment to be performed in order to answer the question. You are running away and hiding from the contradictions in your ideology.

www.youtube.com/embed/aYezkQ05cKg

What I've learned from dan:

1) I'm insecure

This is true, but it is not a point that I made.

2) I'm a bigot

This is true and it's very relevant to your ideology and the contradictions in it.

3) Anyone can be a unicorn.

I've never said anything remotely like this. You are making a straw man argument.

4) Doctors are wrong

I've never said anything remotely like this. You are making a straw man argument.

5) Reality is not reality

I've never said anything remotely like this. You are making a straw man argument.

6) Hypothetical science experiments must be accepted as valid arguments

Thought experiments are perfectly valid. Only an ignorant fool thinks otherwise. Some thought experiments have been utterly crucial in the advancement of science from classical physics to relativity to quantum mechanics.

A famous thought experiment was one proposed by Newton. Most people believe heavier objects fall faster than lighter ones. This wrong belief persists even today. Yet a simple thought experiment demonstrates why this is wrong. If you have two identical bricks A and B, they would fall at the same rate. If you glue A and B together making a single brick of twice the weight, it would still fall at the exact same rate as the two constitute pieces. Therefore weight does not determine accelerating in a gravitational field.

You are simply wrong by stating that thought experiments have no value. The thought experiment I gave in this thread demonstrates that your ideology contains contradictions. These contradictions don't cease to exist simply because you have not encountered them empirically. The fact that you could encounter them in the field demonstrates that the contradictions exist.

6) continued: and you're a bigot for siding with reality.

I've never said anything remotely like this. You are making a straw man argument.

7) Gluing wings on little boys makes them butterflies
I've never said anything remotely like this. You are making a straw man argument.

Meanwhile, you still have not honestly addressed the inherent contradictions of your ideology.

61

NDrLoR 2017 Jun 30, 12:51pm

Meanwhile

I hope he has a tolerant supervisor for all the time he spends on social media.

62

joshuatrio 2017 Jun 30, 12:54pm

That's not what a straw man is. A straw man is a misrepresentation of your opponent's argument.

Your argument regarding a hypothetical science experiment has nothing to do with gender. Especially since it does not exist. What you propose is a perfect example of a strawman, especially when you want me to acknowledge a new gender which does not and will not exist... so you can be like "GOTCHA."

FWIW: Anything created in a lab is a science experiment, not a new gender.

You are running away and hiding from the contradictions in your ideology.

Far from it. I've been consistent by saying the following.

1) When you are born, you are either male or female.
2) Just by hacking your junk off and/or wearing a dress, this doesn't make a man a woman.
3) I agree with my doctor friend in that transgendered people are mentally ill.

Sadly you have to argue a made up stem cell woman infused to a male person's body to make a point. Your buddy has to argue hallucinations in order to justify gender. Scary stuff.

You really need to go back to the basics.

A person born with a dick is a dude. A person born with a vag is a dudette. Putting lipstick on your broomstick doesn't make it a rake.

Welcome to reality Dan.

If you have a legitimate point to make other than a made up science experiment, please introduce it. Otherwise, you're either a cock or a vag.

63

Dan8267 2017 Jun 30, 12:54pm

P N Dr Lo R says

I hope he has a tolerant supervisor for all the time he spends on social media.

Unlike you, I make a lot of money for the company I work at. Also unlike you, it doesn't take me an hour to write a paragraph. You'd be surprise how quickly one can write if his mind is organized and his thoughts are clear.

64

joshuatrio 2017 Jun 30, 1:01pm

FortWayne says

Crazy mental cases do crazy stupid shit, and demand we change laws to accommodate their sick reality. Sadly it's who liberal left and Democrats cater to.

Well said Wayne.

65

Dan8267 2017 Jun 30, 1:16pm

Your argument regarding a hypothetical science experiment has nothing to do with gender.

Calling my argument a science experiment does not make it a science experiment. Nor does it discredit the thought experiment. Furthermore, it absolutely has everything to do with this discussion. You are arguing that a person born male cannot, under any situation, ever become female. I gave you a perfectly valid example of a situation where that is not true. And we know that you agree it's not true because if you didn't you would have simply said that the person is male because Ryan Reynolds was born male. But you didn't because even you see the contradictions in your ideology. Nothing changes the fact that those contradictions exist and they prove your ideology is wrong.

The lowest bar an ideology has to meet is being self-consistent. If your ideology contradicts itself, then by mathematical definition, it is wrong. If you do not believe what you are saying, why should I or anyone else believe it?

1) When you are born, you are either male or female.

Mostly true, but there are exceptions call hermaphrodites, and these hermaphrodites make your statement false. In binary logic, a statement that is wrong 0.0000000001% of the time is a false statement.

ABC News: She's Her Own Twin

2) Just by hacking your junk off and/or wearing a dress, this doesn't make a man a woman.

True, but that does not mean a person is stuck with the gender they were born into. The question is what constitutes maleness or femaleness. If we accept your shitty standard of the presence of a penis or a vagina, then a male who "chops off" his penis is no longer male. Similarly, a male who has a vagina created or transplanted into his body is a female. In fact, by the definition you propose, a person can be both male and female or neither male nor female, and surgery can change this.

If you say that a working penis or womb is the deciding criteria, then infertile men aren't male and infertile women aren't female. Try getting that put on a driver's license.

If you say that genetic code determines maleness or femaleness, you're still fucked over because of Chimeras. People can and do have two or more separate genomes in their bodies and those genomes don't have to have the same sex. Some of your cells could be XX and some could be XY. This happens when a twin of the opposite sex is absorbed into it's twin's body. This is a very real world situation and it has legal implications.

[stupid comment limit]

66

Dan8267 2017 Jun 30, 1:16pm

Lydia Fairchild was a proud mother who faced the most unusual of challenges. She had to fight in court to prove the children born from her body were her own.

"I knew that I carried them, and I knew that I delivered them. There was no doubt in my mind," Fairchild said.

Fairchild's fight for her kids began when she was 26-years-old, unemployed and applying for public assistance in Washington state. Everyone in her family had to be tested to prove they were all related.

The Department of Social Services called Fairchild and told her to come in immediately. What Fairchild thought was a routine meeting with a social worker turned into an interrogation. The proud mother was suddenly a criminal suspect.

"As I sat down, they came up and shut the door, and they just went back and just started drilling me with questions like, 'Who are you?'" Fairchild said.

The DNA test results challenged everything she knew about her family. Yes, her boyfriend was the father of the children, and, yes, they were all related, according to the DNA, except for Fairchild. She was told she wasn't the mother.

Fairchild was certain a mistake must have been made, but she recalled a social worker saying to her, "Nope. DNA is 100 percent foolproof and it doesn't lie."

Fairchild was not only denied government assistance for her young children, she was now suspected of possibly acting as a paid surrogate mother and committing welfare fraud. She was in danger of having her kids taken away for good.

Fairchild said before she left, the social worker told her, "You know, we're able to come get your kids at any time."

Fairchild began to panic. She knew they were her kids. So she rushed home to search for photos of her pregnancy and found her children's birth certificates. She told her parents, who couldn't believe the test results.

"I thought she was joking but then she started crying on the phone. I said 'Oh, it's got to be a mistake. I was there when the kids were born. I saw them come out. I held them in my arms, you know,'" said Fairchild's mother, Carol Fairchild.

"I almost went insane inside. I couldn't imagine why if this could happen, my daughter is not a liar," said Fairchild's father, Rod Fairchild.

Fairchild called her obstetrician, Dr. Leonard Dreisbach. He was there for all the births and assured Fairchild he'd vouch for her in court.

"I would have told them that she certainly had these three kids, and that they were hers, and that I don't know what's wrong with the DNA testing, but I know that she had the kids," Dreisbach said.

But none of that seemed to matter, because DNA tests were considered infallible -- the gold standard in court. DNA showed that Fairchild's genetic makeup did not match that of her children.

To eliminate any chance of human error, new DNA tests were ordered from different labs. It was an agonizing wait, but the results were the same: The children weren't hers.

Fairchild knew then that she was close to losing her kids. After three court hearings, she said the judge looked at her and told her to find a lawyer.

After an extensive search, doctors found a sample of her thyroid tissue saved in a nearby lab in the Boston area. According to Uhl, this piece of tissue was the key to solving the medical mystery.

The DNA that would match her sons' DNA could have been anywhere in Keegan's body. But her thyroid was where she matched her sons' genetic code.

The mystery was solved. In a way, Keegan was her own twin.

"In her blood, she was one person, but in other tissues, she had evidence of being a fusion of two individuals," Uhl said.

It's a rare condition called chimerism, with only 30 documented cases worldwide. In Greek mythology, "chimera" means a monster: part goat, part lion, part snake.

In human biology, a chimera is an organism with at least two genetically distinct types of cells -- or, in other words, someone meant to be a twin. But while in the mother's womb, two fertilized eggs fuse, becoming one fetus that carries two distinct genetic codes -- two separate strands of DNA.

The twin is invisible, but for chimeras the twin lives microscopically inside the body as DNA.

Well, that just completely fucking blows away your binary thinking. A person can have multiple genomes in their body. At the celluar level, they can be both male and female.

So genetic code doesn't determine gender alone. The presence or absent of working or non-working genitals does not determine gender alone. What's left? Only the brain, and that's something which is quite malleable.

3) I agree with my doctor friend in that transgendered people are mentally ill.

Of course, you are a bigot and that's what bigots do. You will agree with anyone who confirms what you already believe. That does not carry any weight.

Once more I put the question to you.

Let's say I clone Scarlett Johansson's body with only a brain stem. I then take Ryan Reynold's brain and transplant it into the clone's body, is Ryan now male or female and why?

If you cannot easily and clearly answer this question and why even after all the time you had to think about it, then obviously you have no clue as to what determines maleness or femaleness. Maybe it's time you simply admitted that you don't know.

67

joshuatrio 2017 Jun 30, 1:31pm

Dan, I've decided not to read your replies, because it's more bullshit. Rather than argue facts, you're arguing a fictional "science experiment."

I mentioned this thread to my wife. She nailed it when she said this:

"Honey, I want to be a duck. I'm going to have surgery done to web my toes, and feathers surgically attached to my body. Now I'm a duck."

Sorry buddy, your wrong.

The medical community disagrees with you, and your leftist feminists disagree with you.

Tonight I plan on banging my wife. Believe it or not, she's 100% real, with a real vagina and real tits (she's hot btw).

You can think of me while you consider chopping off your penis to become something you'll never actually be.

I'm sorry you don't like reality. Best of luck Dan.

68 Therafin 2017 Jun 30, 1:34pm

People do not get to decide which gender they are born with.

Joshiatrio - if a person is born with both a penis and a vagina, and has not altered either one, what binary are they?

69

Dan8267 2017 Jun 30, 1:43pm

Dan, I've decided not to read your replies, because it's more bullshit.

That's a lie. You now realize that you have no responses and cannot fake it anymore.

Rather than argue facts, you're arguing a fictional "science experiment."

You can repeat that lie all you want. It's already been debunked.

1. It's not a science experiment.
2. Thought experiments are valid counter-arguments.
3. The contradictions the thought experiment exposes in your ideology exist regardless of whether or not the thought experiment is carried out.
4. It is inevitable that either the exact situation the thought experiment describes or an equivalent condition will happen in the not-so-distant future.
5. Chimeras also demonstrate the contradictions in your ideology.
6. It is dishonesty and the inability to fix the contradictions in your ideology that causes you to dodge the points made by the thought experiment.

Man, at least have the honesty to admit your ideology cannot handle these situations. That's like the lowest possible bar in honest discourse.

I mentioned this thread to my wife. She nailed it when she said this:

"Honey, I want to be a duck. I'm going to have surgery done to web my toes, and feathers surgically attached to my body. Now I'm a duck."

Sorry buddy, your wrong.

No, your analogy is wrong. If I rebuild your body at the cellular level into a duck, you're a fucking duck. If I transplant your brain into a duck's body, your new body is a duck. The question is whether or not your mind is a duck. I'd say no. But then a duck's brain being transplanted into a human body doesn't make the duck's brain human even though the duck has a human body. So now, you have to accept that a person's mind can have a different gender than his or her body, and that's the whole fucking point of the transgender movement.

#lawyered

Tonight I plan on banging my wife. Believe it or not, she's 100% real, with a real vagina and real tits (she's hot btw).

You can think of me while you consider chopping off your penis to become something you'll never actually be.

If you are so delusional to believe that I'm transgender or interested in becoming transgender, then why should I believe your wife is hot? You clearly have no grasp on reality.

One does not have to be transgender to admit truths about gender. Objective reality is independent of political agenda or personal experience. You are being tribal in assuming that only transgender persons would point out that you are completely wrong and your ideology is self-contradicting. That's not a transgender thing. It's a math thing.

I'm sorry you don't like reality.

Oh honey, the only one of us who has trouble with reality here is you. It is entirely because I believe in truthfully representing reality that I pointed out how flawed and contradictory your ideology is and how it does not handle real world cases like chimeras or not-so-distant futures involving more sophisticated reshaping of the human body. Reality isn't defined as whatever your political ideology wants. Reality is objective and independent of political and social desires. You demonstrate the exact same flaws in self-delusion that the left exhibits thus once again proving that the conservative left and the conservative right are the same.

70

Dan8267 2017 Jun 30, 1:45pm

Therafin says

Joshiatrio - if a person is born with both a penis and a vagina, and has not altered either one, what binary are they?

He won't answer this question. He cannot. Even attempting to answer the question of hermaphrodites exposes the contradictions in his ideology and its incompatibly with reality. Even acknowledging the existence of human hermaphrodites concedes the point that gender is not always binary.

Watch. Even though I just wrote the above paragraph and effectively challenged him to answer that question, he still won't. He cannot. Nor can he admit he does not have an answer.

71

Dan8267 2017 Jun 30, 1:46pm