patrick.net

TwoScoopsMcGee says

Compare the rates of Football Players' criminal acts, to that of Hockey Players, Baseball Players, etc.

It's no wonder they're protesting the cops who try to punish them, when they think, because of all the smoke blown up their ass their entire lives, they're entitled to get away with it.

And McGee again avoids the actual subject and tries to distract by attacking the character of random football players.

When you fear the message, and cannot refute it with a counter, attack the messenger

Even if every NFL star taking a knee was a violent criminal -- and I have no reason to believe any of them are

@Dan, you are speaking from a position of ignorance

Ray Lewis bent the knee: http://grantland.com/the-triangle/remembering-the-ray-lewis-controversy/
Darren Sharper the serial rapist: https://www.si.com/nfl/2015/04/07/darren-sharper-police-failure-stop-rape-spree
Leonard Littles 2nd DUI where he murders a woman who happened to be the wife of one of his teams photographers, netted him an 8 game suspension: https://www.google.com/amp/www.nydailynews.com/amp/archives/sports/hard-ram-star-latest-dui-victim-family-bewildered-article-1.581397

Rae Carruth was eligible for the death penalty after brutally murdering his pregnant wife:
https://www.google.com/amp/www.nydailynews.com/amp/sports/football/zone-carruth-consequences-article-1.1576536
Aaron Hernandez?: double murder

These are just a few off the top of my head.

joeyjojojunior says

And McGee again avoids the actual subject and tries to distract by attacking the character of random football players.

Nope. Totally Relevant. I addressed both "it's what the symbol means to the customers and the majority generally" angle AND the "Why do Football Players hate cops."

To summarize:

We shouldn't be surprised that Criminals, and those associated with criminals, hate cops.

National Felon League has far disproportionate felons among their members than the general working population.

Then add all the smoke blown up their ass, all the coverups done on their behalf by authority figures, the Social Justice Indoctrination in college and their advantageous minority status as both Black and Elite Athletes, and the multimillion dollar salaries, and they've got a toxic mix of self-righteousness and contempt.

TwoScoopsMcGee says

Chairpeople

I remember when feminism became popular in the early 70's, my aunt who taught school in Austin for many years said "I'll be happy to be a chairman, but don't ask me to be a chairwoman or a chairperson". She also told about the time she took a young black boy by the ear, marched him down to the principal's office and said "Mr. Griffin, you take this SOB out of my classroom, I'm not going to have some black bastard calling me a liar!"

TwoScoopsMcGee says

It means what the majority, and particularly the majority of Football Fans who are overwhelmingly White and working and middle class, think it means.

Not it does not. If popularity determined the meaning of a symbol and all others were forced to accept it, than the ISIS flag would be the symbol of the one true god. There are more devoted Muslims who believe that then there are non-Muslims who would even recognize the ISIS flag.

No person has the right or the power to force the meaning of a symbol onto another person. Nor does any person have the right to force others to respect and admire the symbols he likes.

People should be far more concerned about principles than symbols. There is no principle being opposed by the NFL players kneeling. There are many principles being opposed by condemning those players including the principles of
1. Free speech.
2. Empathy
3. Liberty
4. Freedom of thought
5. Individualism
6. Justice for all
7. Honest court systems
8. Public awareness of serious problems
9. Democracy, which is undermined by ignorance
10. Real patriotism, which is love of countrymen, not love of flag
11. Equality under law
12. The pursuit of happiness
13. The opposition to terrorism
14. Human and civil rights
15. Honorable conduct

I could probably go on and on, but that's sufficient.

TwoScoopsMcGee says

What the minority of radicals think isn't important.

1. The majority of football fans isn't the majority of the population.
2. Majority rule does not make right. The truth isn't a popularity contest.
3. Calling someone a radical doesn't make them one. I could just as easily assert that anyone condemning these players is a radical. After all, they are condemning freedom of speech and that's a damn radical and dangerous idea.

TwoScoopsMcGee says

The majority can ignore their insistence on focusing only on the negative

One solves problems. You don't fix things that are working.

Tell me, do you object to people being aware of Islamic terrorism because such awareness "focuses only one the negative" of Islam. That sounds exactly like the conservative left. Every time there is a Islamic terrorist attack, the left condemns anyone who says there is a problem with Islam. Now replace Islam with "police". It's the same damn thing. Every time there is a police terrorist attack, the right condemns anyone who says there is a problem with the police. Terrorism is terrorism, not matter who the perpetrators are.

Your objection to vocalization of the problems with the police is no different than the left's objections to the vocalization of the problems with Islam.

TwoScoopsMcGee says

their ignorance of history (slavery being the norm for almost all history and the first ban against it by Europeans in the 19th Century)

The commonality of a crime does not make the crime any less serious. Are you suggesting that we should not attempt to stop crimes that are common simply because they are common? Are you suggesting we should not condemn criminals if their crimes are common? Terrorism is common in Middle East Islamic culture. Does that mean it is wrong to morally condemn terrorists? Use your principles consistently or abandon them. Inconsistently applied principles are just plain wrong.


TwoScoopsMcGee says

In the vast, vast majority of police encounters, Blacks don't die.

In the vast majority of police encounters, cops don't die. Does that mean we should not condemn cop killers? Again, apply your principles consistently.

TwoScoopsMcGee says

They do, fact, commit disproportionate crimes. Not surprising because they worship Gangsters and Felons in their Music and Film. But this is ancillary.

Not only is it ancillary, it's irrelevant. The vast majority of rapist are men. Men rape far more disproportionately than do blacks disproportionately commit violent crimes. By your logic, the feminazis are right to say men are scum because of this. Once again, apply your principles consistently. You know the feminazis are wrong in their logic. You are wrong in yours as well because it's the exact same logic.

Furthermore, blacks do NOT disproportionately commit more crimes. Over 99.99999% of crimes are committed by whites. Surprising? Perhaps, but most truths are. Blacks disproportionately commit violent crimes like murder, rape, and burglary. However, the typical murderer commits only one murder before being caught and thrown in prison. Almost 100% of crimes by sheer numbers are financial crimes automated with computers. It literally takes less than a nano-second to commit a crime with a computer, and with parallelism billions of crimes can be committed every second with computers. And since they are not prosecuted, they go on unabated.

If you were to actually count crimes and plot them on a pie chart, the entire pie chart would be filled with automated financial crimes. This is a cold hard fact. And those automated crimes are committed by overwhelmingly white, male financial professionals. So your statement "blacks disproportionately commit crimes" is simply wrong, factually wrong. Care must be taken in statements to get them right. There is no margin for error.

Finally, regardless of the problems with crime in black communities and the causes of those problems, it is morally wrong to object to people bringing awareness of the unprosecuted crimes of police including murder, rape, and terrorism. There is absolutely no excuse for our court system not to prosecute those criminals and to protect the innocents unfortunate enough to live in poor neighborhoods. There is no justification for demonizing those who publicly express concern for innocent members of the public, your fellow Americans. Expressing such concern is by far the most patriotic thing you can do.

The real patriot does not whitewash history or lie about the shameful atrocities of his country. The real patriot brings this shame to the public eye so that it can stop and the country can be made great. Real patriotism is love of your countrymen, not your country or flag. Those who wave the flag proudly while attacking their fellow Americans are Unamerican.

TwoScoopsMcGee says

I'm not letting a Minority dictate to me what the Flag means.

What you think the flag or the national anthem means is completely irrelevant to what the NFL player's protest means. The meaning of the flag may vary from person to person, but the meaning of a protest is completely and solely determine by the intent of the protestors! People have intentions. Flags do not. Flags are inanimate objects with no thoughts. People have thoughts, intentions, and will which determine the meaning of their protest.

It is hypocritical of you to complain that other people are imposing a different significance to the flag on you when you are imposing a difference significance of their protest!

Regardless of what you think the flag means, their protest means one and only one thing: protecting Americans from terrorists, rapists, and murderers. You don't get to impose any bad intentions on that.

TwoScoopsMcGee says

Protesting at a football game just says "FUCK AMERICA! ULULULULULULU!" It's not effective communication.

Again, you don't get to impose that message on their protest any more than they get to impose that message on your flag waving or standing during the national anthem, and for the exact same reasons.

It seems your entire problem with the NFL players is your wilful misinterpretation of their message. You have not made a single objection to the actual message, only what you wrongfully perceive their message to be. So let me make this absolutely clear. The NFL player's message is "Cops need to stop committing murder, rape, and terrorism, and the courts need to prosecute cops who commit crimes.". This is the one and ONLY message the NFL players are sending. If you hear anything else, that's a problem with you listening to the message, not a problem with what they are saying.

TwoScoopsMcGee says

There's also a perception problem, when a cop kills a fleeing White or Hispanic criminal, there's little coverage. When it's black, the media descends upon it.

That is a problem with the media that does not, in any way, condemn the NFL player's protest or their message.

TwoScoopsMcGee says

If you want to talk about getting away with stuff, the crime rate in the National Felons League is sky high.

This is also irrelevant to the take a knee message. It would be irrelevant even if some of the protesters were guilty of such crimes. Is a murderer says that people should not be allowed to rape with impunity, he's not wrong about that. Discarding a correct message simply because you do not like the messenger is a fallacy. The messenger is irrelevant. Christ, I've must have said that sentence a thousand times on Patnet.

TwoScoopsMcGee says

As anybody who is honest will admit, football players often completely dodge any legal system or academic process when they regularly commit crimes and misdeeds that would get any other student suspended or incarcerated with ease.

All people with money and power do this. It is unethical and immoral, and more importantly, the fault of the system for allowing it. However, it is completely irrelevant to the subject at hand. Would you stop funding anti-terrorism efforts simply because an NFL player said we should fund anti-terrorism efforts? That would be silly. Sometimes people you don't like say things that you should agree with. You don't have to disagree with someone simply because you hate them. Even broken clocks are sometimes right. Even Fox News occasionally says the right thing. Even Donald Trump, if only by sheer dumb luck, does something right. Hell, even Bush and Cheney did the rare good thing.

It is not valid to reject a correct position simply because someone you hate adopted that position. It does not change the nature of the position itself. Rejecting a position simply because someone else adopts it is entirely irrational.

TwoScoopsMcGee says

Football Players often don't like cops because when they get arrested far from their home town or college town, they aren't recognized and not "given the respect" they feel entitled to.

Irrelevant. The cops do NOT deserve respect because they protect criminal cops who assault, rape, murder, and terrorize community. Only when both these crimes stop and all other cops arrest criminal cops instead of preventing the public from stopping such crimes will the police merit respect.

Make no mistake. The police in every other western nation are highly respectable. America is the ONLY exception. America is the only western country where the police are out of control thugs and terrorists. It does not have to be this way, but the message being sent by the NFL players is absolutely critical in changing this.

People who hate the fact that America's history is shameful should use that discomfort to motivate themselves to change America so that it's future is not shameful. You only get to be proud of your country when your country merits pride. Your personal feelings are irrelevant. Make America into the country you want others to perceive it to be. Otherwise, you have nothing to be proud about.

You are not entitled to national pride. It must be earned. Pretending your nation is better than it is ultimately is no different than giving a trophy to anyone who participates. Sure it might make you feel good, but it means nothing. Honor must be earned, not imagined.

TwoScoopsMcGee says

"I hate Cops, yo!"

TwoScoopsMcGee says

ex-NFL Ray Rice beats his wife in a hotel elevator.

Both incidences and anything similar are also irrelevant. This is no different than saying because some men rape, the false accusations and harms flung at innocent men by feminazis are justified. Once more, your reasoning is identical to theirs, and you know they are wrong.

joeyjojojunior says

And McGee again avoids the actual subject and tries to distract by attacking the character of random football players.

Unfortunate, but in this case you are right. Every argument he has made has been a "poisoning the well" argument. Even worse, it's a guilt by association poisoning of the well. I'm hoping he will realize this and recant his objections. I have given very detailed and clear reasons why he should. Hopefully, rationality and reason will prevail.

TwoScoopsMcGee says

We shouldn't be surprised that Criminals, and those associated with criminals, hate cops.

Wow--so you're painting the entire NFL as criminals then? Awesome.

I guess all cops are criminals too then. Look at Drew Peterson. Or this guy:

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2541473/Police-officer-shoots-dead-wife-children-mother-law-committing-suicide.html
Or many, many others.

joeyjojojunior says

TwoScoopsMcGee says

We shouldn't be surprised that Criminals, and those associated with criminals, hate cops.

Wow--so you're painting the entire NFL as criminals then? Awesome.

I guess all cops are criminals too then. Look at Drew Peterson. Or this guy:

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2541473/Police-officer-shoots-dead-wife-children-mother-law-committing-suicide.html
Or many, many others.

You're not going to get an honest response about policemen crime stats, especially with the data being so muddled. But yea, there are tons of cops doing heinous things every day, and as a whole, a far greater negative impact to society than the NFL offenders

NFL has let America down by catering to liberals and that stupidity.

FortWayne says

NFL has let America down by catering to liberals and that stupidity.

Huh?

America was built by liberals and immigrants. You're just not smart enough to understand what this country is all about. So just sit there and be quiet

Dan8267 says

Finally, regardless of the problems with crime in black communities and the causes of those problems, it is morally wrong to object to people bringing awareness of the unprosecuted crimes of police including murder, rape, and terrorism.

While you said finally, it was not the end. But this line stuck out to me in your novel (I mean that in a good way if you care to believe that). It is morally wrong to bring "awareness" to any issue and to do jack shit about it. And this is what the problem is. Their kneeling, holding hands, singing jambalaya (spell check liked this word so I went with it - Kumbaya or however it's spelled) doesn't make a damn difference. Kaepernik sending $1M of his own money, where likely 80% was siphoned off to salaries of buddies and people that ultimately can give him his money back, is not doing anything. It's disingenuous at best and criminal at worst.

Most of these guys are greedy ass holes. Until there was some "awareness" brought to their attention, they didn't send a dime of their own money to any charity or "cause." And still probably don't send anything with all the attention. Most NFL players HAVE to be greedy because the average shelf life is 3 years and most of that pay is based off a rookie contract. So factor in most these guys weren't going to be generous anyway and then factor in the average shelf life of an NFL player and this whole thing is completely disingenuous. If someone is going to push an agenda with athletes, maybe you can do it with the NBA. But they're all fucking looking out for their own and trying to be the next MJ and save up to be a billionaire team owner.

And I'm sorry, it is morally wrong for most American's to completely ignore the social issues of the black community. Which is kind of what you do by focusing in on a minority of an even smaller group (cops) then blacks and their issues. Blacks are 13% of the population. Cops across this country are ~0.00309% https://blog.skepticallibertarian.com/2016/07/24/how-many-police-are-there-in-the-united-states/ We can fix the police brutality problem I believe. But we have to, pun intended, start looking at the 800lb gorilla in the room.

WookieMan says

Their kneeling, holding hands, singing jambalaya (spell check liked this word so I went with it - Kumbaya or however it's spelled) doesn't make a damn difference.

I'd say that Martin Luther King might disagree with you.

Cops across this country are ~0.00309%

Your math is brutal

Jambalaya is a stew

errc says

Even if every NFL star taking a knee was a violent criminal -- and I have no reason to believe any of them are

Last count it was 27% who were.

WookieMan says

the social issues of the black community

Which are probably 93.47% self-imposed.

joeyjojojunior says

I'd say that Martin Luther King might disagree with you.

(This is a rerun, but appropriate)

I'd think not. In the most racist era outside of the 19th century, 1900-1960, black families were stable with two parent families the norm, but they still lived under Jim Crow. MLK was a proponent of integration and assimilation into the broader society, "acting white" if you will, and the Civil Rights Act of 1964 was the result--of course it didn't instantly eradicate racism but it was a start. However, the societal meltdowns of the sexual revolution and drug cultures of the late 60's intervened. Young blacks under the influence of such characters as Stokely Carmichael, H. Rap Brown, Huey Newton and the Black Panthers, who had Elaine Brown murder Betty Van Patter, who hated MLK and all he stood for, opted instead for the black thug, ghetto culture of drugs, out-of-wedlock births, sloth, victimology and general slovenliness that proved generational and which we see to this day. It's interesting but sad how the violence of exactly 50 years ago mirrors so perfectly that of today and from so many of the same sources. The identity politics, societal divisions and divisiveness we experience today had their beginnings in those riots and disruptions of 50 years ago despite what should have been great progress. Welfare spending exploded between 1970 and 1980, yet to what good effect?

Jim Crow 1956--how often is this seen in the black community today?

http://www.shorpy.com/node/13115?size=_original#caption

errc says

Your math is brutal

Listen, I never claimed to be thorough. Article has 765,246 cops. Just ran with it. The percentage does add up. Is it accurate? I have no fucking clue. Either way cops are not much of a percentage of the population. And yes, they do bad things. If more focus (not necessarily money) was spent on helping blacks, I think our country would overall be in a better place. That's all I'm getting at.
errc says

Jambalaya is a stew

I know. I generally suck at spelling. Firefox gave me the red line underneath and I went with the suggestion, Jambalaya. Was trying for kumbaya. Which Firefox still gives me the red line for. So kumbaya = jambalaya, you really can't argue that.

WookieMan says

jambalaya

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XHAsFVjrDyg

FortWayne says

NFL has let America down by catering to liberals and that stupidity.

Your statement has let America down. There's nothing more unpatriotic than not giving a shit about your fellow Americans being raped and murdered or attacking other Americans advocating for those victims.

The shame of police crimes is surpassed only by the shame you bring to America by condoning those crimes and condemning those who voice opposition to those crimes. You steal honor from America and demonstrate exactly why the American flag is not a symbol of liberty or justice.

P N Dr Lo R says

jambalaya

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XHAsFVjrDyg

Not good with movies to be honest, but that song would fit perfect in a Quentin Tarantino violence scene in a future move.

Dan8267 says

Not it does not. If popularity determined the meaning of a symbol and all others were forced to accept it, than the ISIS flag would be the symbol of the one true god. There are more devoted Muslims who believe that then there are non-Muslims who would even recognize the ISIS flag.

Sheesh Dan, it's a novel - not that that's a bad thing - so I'm going to take it piece by piece.

I think plenty of Shi'a Muslims hate ISIS, as do many Sunni Muslims since ISIS is opposed to a great deal of Islamic Traditions. In any case, I'm referring to what Americans think of the US Flag, and since pretty much only Americans and maybe a few Canadians make up Football spectators, that's what matters. Most American spectators look on the flag as a national symbol of unity, along with the anthem, and to kneel is a sign of disrespect. People who see the flag as an oppressive symbol of unrepentant nothing-but-evil are a minority.

Few outside North America really cares about football. However, I've talked to Center-Left Europeans recently, who can't believe that not standing for an anthem - not just their own - isn't an auto suspension or even a firing offense. Soccer players are required to stand and not make political gestures for any anthem, or they're totally gone, for several games, or even permanently.

The NFL Players don't know what the fuck they're on about because they stood for the British Anthem but sad for the American One. Apparently, Britain was never a colonialist power that engaged in slavery, slaughter, etc. Just the USA?

Dan8267 says

No person has the right or the power to force the meaning of a symbol onto another person. Nor does any person have the right to force others to respect and admire the symbols he likes.

Yes, I agree that the AltLeft will not force me to regard the US Flag and National Anthem as they do.

As for your list of points:
1. They certainly have freedom of speech. However, that is tempered by being on the clock and representing a brand on national television. The NFL also has to think about Speech that is being assigned to them via the players, and be prepared for my speech and others in return. Including the right to criticize and boycott speech we don't like.
2. Empathy. I'm biased against Football Bullies by nature. Too coddled by authority figures most of their lives.
3. Liberty. Nobody stopped the Football Players from expressing themselves, on or off the field. It's also liberty for them to receive feedback from their actions.
4. Freedom of Thought. As much as they can process with their CTE, they have Freedom of Thought.
5. Individualism. They're free to show their individualism, like Kaepernick did when his BLM anti-white fascist 6-figure earning girlfriend pressured him to speak out.
6. Justice for all. Compared to what? Compared to 3/4 of the countries in the world, the US Court System is pretty damn honest.
7. Honest Court Systems. Yep, would be nice. Start with totally free elections of judges, free from BAR control.
8. Public awareness. Many of those cheering on the Players also think Transgender Bathrooms is the most important Human Rights violation in the World today. While happily participating in Child Labor (Coffee, Chocolate Growing) or AltLeft Terrorism. Indeed, Antifa almost certainly backs the players, while attacking Free Speech in the Streets.
9. Democracy is also undermined by wealthy elites pushing their view of things through their extremely unequal control of media and entertainment.
10. Real Patriotism is love of country and people. I doubt these Players give two shits about this.
11. Equality under the law. Lacking more for billionaire crimes than for police, IMHO. Almost everything bad law enforcement does is due to political lobbying of the wealthy. For example, packing private prisons to max capacity. Writing tickets for 65 in a 55 for insurance companies excuse to raise rates.
12. The pursuit of happiness. To entertain yourself for a few hours without extremely controversial bullshit being rubbed in your face.
13. Opposition to Terrorism. Most Terror groups have political wings designed to indoctrinate and propagandize. The NFL Players are the political wing of AltLeft Terrorism.
14. Human and Civil Rights. Too broad to comment upon without specific examples.
15. Honorable. To WW2 and pre-WW2 Japanese, honorable meant never surrendering, but fighting unto death, so this is a relative term.

WookieMan says

While you said finally, it was not the end.

I meant that paragraph stated the final supporting point for that section of my response. The next paragraph was the conclusion for that section. It was not meant to indicate the final paragraph or the final section of my response.

WookieMan says

But this line stuck out to me in your novel (I mean that in a good way if you care to believe that)

Verboseness is not a measure of how long a message is, but rather how needlessly long it is. My responses may be long, but they are far more concise than just about anything you will ever read. The information density is large and I do not repeat myself. My posts are exactly how long they need to be to completely support the argument I am making. Detailed problems required detailed analysis.

It is a shame that most Americans have short attention spans. I think that problem has gotten worse with the rise of social media and online news, but it did not have to be that way. It's not a problem with technology, but rather how we choose to use technology.


WookieMan says

Most of these guys are greedy ass holes.

Even if the motivation of the players is self-serving, the message itself is correct. More importantly, the real reasons behind the opposition to their message has nothing to do with the NFL players, but rather the message itself. People would rather kill the messenger than acknowledge the truth of a message that exposes the shame of the tribe. People are too tribal. It's the human beings in the tribe that matter, not the tribal identity. This isn't the Stone Age. The Stone Age sucked. Let's stop living in it.

WookieMan says

And I'm sorry, it is morally wrong for most American's to completely ignore the social issues of the black community.

Since when are black community members ignoring the social issues of black communities. There are countless examples of community leaders, ministers, low-ranking politicians, charity workers, social workers, etc. vocally advocating for cultural changes, community watches, drug rehabilitation, education, and other means of fixing the various problems in poor black communities.

More importantly, acknowledging the truth that courts need to prosecute cops who murder, rape, and terrorize does not in any way hinder addressing other problems including problems caused by African Americans themselves. Making such an argument is as non-sequitur as stating that a rapist should not admit to his crimes because Congress can't balance the budget. The two are completely unrelated.

If anything, crime in poor black communities would be far less if the population could actually trust the police, which is impossible as long as criminal cops are left unprosecuted.

WookieMan says

Cops across this country are ~0.00309% https://blog.skepticallibertarian.com/2016/07/24/how-many-police-are-there-in-the-united-states/

0.34% according to the FBI. But in any case, this only goes to serve how pervasive corruption and criminal activity within police departments are. So much damage caused by so few individuals.

@pnldr—

Not sure what point you are trying to make, but whatever it is, it certainly doesn’t refute mine.

Peaceful protests are far from meaningless and worthless.

TwoScoopsMcGee says

Sheesh Dan, it's a novel - not that that's a bad thing - so I'm going to take it piece by piece.

That is how any good debate works. Points are clearly made by each side and refuted or conceded by the other side. You should be able to draw any debate as an acyclic directed graph. That's how I model them.

TwoScoopsMcGee says

Most American spectators look on the flag as a national symbol of unity, along with the anthem, and to kneel is a sign of disrespect.

Even if your statement is true, it is irrelevant whether or not someone perceives an action as a sign of disrespect. What matters is whether or not an action is intended as a sign of disrespect. Furthermore, it is utterly meaningless to talk about disrespect for a country. Country are imaginary entities. You can only show disrespect for people.

Furthermore, anyone who is more concerned with their social status than the victims of police murder, rape, and terrorism does not deserve one micron of respect. The only respectable response to the NFL protest is solidarity and concern for the problem of police crimes. It is just as offensive condemning such a gesture as it would be to condemn a gesture remembering the Holocaust victims and for the exact same reason. Such outrage shows complete disrespect for the very lives of your fellow Americans.

Imagine how disrespectful it is for cops to body slam a woman, rip her clothes off, and put their entire hands up the woman's vagina against her will. That's disrespectful. Trivializing such a horrific atrocity is disrespectful. Condemning people for bringing public attention to such crimes is disrespectful. Valuing a stupid tradition like standing during the national anthem over the pain and anguish such a woman and her entire family experiences is disrespectful. The only people who need to show more respect are the ones condemning the silent protest.

The NFL players are displaying far more patriotism and love of their country than anyone complaining that they kneel during the anthem. Real patriotism is love of countrymen, not love of symbols and social status, which is exactly what all the opposition to the protest comes down to.

I know it hurts to admit when your country does something shameful and despicable. It hurts me every bit as much as it hurts you. But the only moral and honorable response to your country's shame is to admit it and stop it. That can only be done by acknowledging the truth. Look at Germany for the perfect example. Germans today bear no guilt for the Holocaust because Germany admitted its crimes, stopped, and never whitewashed them. In contrast America still bears the shame of slavery for glorifying the Confederacy, the KKK flag (Confederate battle flag), and whitewashing slavery and racism. In order to be forgiven, you must confess your sins and stop committing them. When it comes to police terrorism, America has done neither. Public awareness of this problem is exactly what is needed to end America's shame.

TwoScoopsMcGee says

The NFL Players don't know what the fuck they're on about because they stood for the British Anthem but sad for the American One. Apparently, Britain was never a colonialist power that engaged in slavery, slaughter, etc. Just the USA?

They are fighting the problem in their own community, not the ones in other communities. You have to pick your fights in order to win them. Not solving every problem in the world does not diminish the legitimacy of address a problem directly affecting black communities today. Your argument is logically equivalent to stating that America should do absolutely nothing to address terrorist attacks against the United States until it has stopped all terrorist attacks in every foreign country. You would not buy such an argument, but you are trying to sell me the exact same one.

TwoScoopsMcGee says

1. They certainly have freedom of speech. However, that is tempered by being on the clock and representing a brand on national television.

No, it is not. They are not getting paid by the hour. They are not being compensated for their silent protest. They are well within their rights not to stand for the anthem. All human beings have that right and should have that right. The fact that athletes are role models is exactly why it is honorable for them to set this example. The fact that they are enduring such visceral attacks only makes their actions more honorable.

TwoScoopsMcGee says

Including the right to criticize and boycott speech we don't like.

Of course, everyone has the right to condemn the NFL players, no matter how morally wrong it is do so, just like everyone has the right to piss and shit on the American flag and then burn it. However, no one has the right to being respected for their morally wrong position. It is clear which group is on the wrong side of history.

TwoScoopsMcGee says

2. Empathy. I'm biased against Football Bullies by nature. Too coddled by authority figures most of their lives.

The silent protest is not an act of bullying by any means. Even if every bad thing you say about the NFL players is true -- and that's a big IF -- it's irrelevant. The messenger is not important. You still have not given a single reason why anyone should be offended by the message or the protest.

TwoScoopsMcGee says

It's also liberty for them to receive feedback from their actions.

And it's liberty for rational people to completely discredit every condemnation of the protest as I am doing right now. Again, you have the right to say things that are irrational, incorrect, and morally wrong. I have the right to exposed those mistakes. This isn't a debate about who has the right to do what. It's a debate about what is morally right.

TwoScoopsMcGee says

4. Freedom of Thought. As much as they can process with their CTE, they have Freedom of Thought.

It seems like you are saying that the NFL players are brain-damaged idiots, therefore anything they say is wrong. If so, this is a weak poisoning the well argument.

We've both posted many replies on this thread. Not once have you given a single reason why the actual message the NFL players are sending, "Cops need to stop committing murder, rape, and terrorism, and the courts need to prosecute cops who commit crimes.", is wrong. If this message is so obviously wrong, it should be trivial for you to demonstrate why without resorting to attacking the messengers.

TwoScoopsMcGee says

5. Individualism. They're free to show their individualism, like Kaepernick did when his BLM anti-white fascist 6-figure earning girlfriend pressured him to speak out.

Some individuals do bad things, therefore individualism itself is bad? Surely you don't believe what you just implied.

TwoScoopsMcGee says

6. Justice for all. Compared to what? Compared to 3/4 of the countries in the world, the US Court System is pretty damn honest.

Compared to the Stone Age, Nazi Germany was pretty damn nice. What's your point? How does that mitigate the honorifics of cops brutally raping men and women under the guize of searching for drugs? How does justify the wholesale murder of innocent, law-abiding, unarmed, and cooperating Americans, or the framing of people for crimes they did not commit? How does it condone the court systems systematically obstructing justice and letting terrorists, murderers, and rapists commit their crimes with impunity? Most important of all, why would that at all justify outrage at the protests?

TwoScoopsMcGee says

7. Honest Court Systems. Yep, would be nice. Start with totally free elections of judges, free from BAR control.

There are many legal reforms we should make. My point still stands though. The protest against dishonest courts is valid, important, and honorable.

TwoScoopsMcGee says

8. Public awareness. Many of those cheering on the Players also think Transgender Bathrooms is the most important Human Rights violation in the World today. While happily participating in Child Labor (Coffee, Chocolate Growing) or AltLeft Terrorism. Indeed, Antifa almost certainly backs the players, while attacking Free Speech in the Streets.

All irrelevant even if true. Once more you are poisoning the well. The messenger is irrelevant. This would not at all diminish from the validity of the message itself.

Your objection is like arguing that because some corrupt politician says we should fight ISIS that we should not. That corrupt politician is irrelevant to the dangers that ISIS poses or our need to fight them. Similarly someone you hate saying we should stop criminal cops is irrelevant to the fact that we should stop criminal cops. The actual victims of those terrorists are not the NFL players you hate, but innocent Americans.

I'm sorry, but you are engaging in rampant identity politics and its clouding your judgement.

TwoScoopsMcGee says

9. Democracy is also undermined by wealthy elites pushing their view of things through their extremely unequal control of media and entertainment.

People die of cancer. That does not mean you shouldn't disarm the nuclear bomb that's about to go off in a major city. Solving the problem of criminal cops does not require first solving every other problem in the world. There is no reason why this epidemic problem should have the absolute lowest priority.

TwoScoopsMcGee says

10. Real Patriotism is love of country and people. I doubt these Players give two shits about this.

I sincerely doubt that NFL players, mostly blacks who grew up in neighborhoods terrorized by the police, are apathetic about this problem. I personally never gave a damn about sports, but let's acknowledge the very long history of athletes bringing about awareness of social and political problems from Jesse Owens, the black athlete who opposed the Nazi belief in Aryan superiority, to Jackie Robinson the first black baseball player who endured constant harassment and death threats, to Muhammad Ali who was arrested and imprisoned for refusing to fight in an immoral war. The current NFL protest is a continuation of that tradition, and quite frankly, its one of the few examples in American history that we Americans can honestly be proud of. This protest is exactly the best part of America.

America has never been a country of liberty and justice. Never. The only good parts of our history, the only parts worthy of pride, are the parts where individuals have stood against the majority of the country for what was right. From the examples above to others like Harriet Truman, Susan B. Anthony, Loving v. Virginia, marriage equality, the Snowden leaks, Deep Throat (the whistleblower, not the porno), the individuals taking an unpopular stand against the popular injustices of the time is the awe-inspiring part of American history and the only thing that offsets all the shame in our history.

If you truly love America, you should be commending these players.

TwoScoopsMcGee says

11. Equality under the law. Lacking more for billionaire crimes than for police, IMHO. Almost everything bad law enforcement does is due to political lobbying of the wealthy. For example, packing private prisons to max capacity. Writing tickets for 65 in a 55 for insurance companies excuse to raise rates.

Again, irrelevant to the point. The victims of police crimes are not the NFL players, but the poor. Therefore the validity of the protest stands.

TwoScoopsMcGee says

12. The pursuit of happiness. To entertain yourself for a few hours without extremely controversial bullshit being rubbed in your face.

First, there should be nothing controversial about the protesting tolerance for terrorism by taking a knee during the national anthem. Just because people don't like something, doesn't make it controversial.

Second, if your entertainment is ruined from seeing that for a few minutes during a boring part of a broadcast before the actual game begins, that's solely your problem. Your entertainment is interrupted far more by commercial breaks.

Third, your entertainment is irrelevant to the validity of the message. That protest isn't meant to entertain you, and the proper response should be awed that despite the horrific crimes against humanity committed by many police, there are good Americans standing up for peace and justice. You are witnessing history. That's far more important than the game.

TwoScoopsMcGee says

13. Opposition to Terrorism. Most Terror groups have political wings designed to indoctrinate and propagandize. The NFL Players are the political wing of AltLeft Terrorism.

That's a ridiculous statement. What the police do is the very definition of terrorism. They inflict terror onto entire populations by committing some of the worst crimes against humanity, murder, rape, and torture. Taking a knee during the national anthem to bring public attention to the victims of such crimes is not terrorism in any way. Nor is it indoctrination or propaganda.

TwoScoopsMcGee says

14. Human and Civil Rights. Too broad to comment upon without specific examples.

Being raped under the guise of drug law enforcement is a violation of human rights. Is that specific enough? If not I have literally thousands of detailed examples of such rapes.

TwoScoopsMcGee says

15. Honorable. To WW2 and pre-WW2, honorable meant never surrendering, but fighting unto death, so this is a relative term.

I don't see how you are attempting to refute my point. It is honorable to take an unpopular stand against a popular injustice.

In summary, every counterargument you made about has been one of the following:
- a straw man argument
- a non-sequitur
- a red herring
- poisoning the well

I'm still hoping that you'll come to your senses and realize that everything I've said in this thread is spot on.

Dan8267 says

While you said finally, it was not the end.

I meant that paragraph stated the final supporting point for that section of my response. The next paragraph was the conclusion for that section. It was not meant to indicate the final paragraph or the final section of my response.

That's fine. Start it out with another word then. Don't need an explanation.
Dan8267 says

Verboseness is not a measure of how long a message is, but rather how needlessly long it is. My responses may be long, but they are far more concise than just about anything you will ever read. The information density is large and I do not repeat myself. My posts are exactly how long they need to be to completely support the argument I am making. Detailed problems required detailed analysis.

I think I made myself clear. Had no problem with the length of your post. They're not more concise then just about anything I've read, but that's fine if you think so. Your explanation of this was not concise.
Dan8267 says

Even if the motivation of the players is self-serving, the message itself is correct. More importantly, the real reasons behind the opposition to their message has nothing to do with the NFL players, but rather the message itself. People would rather kill the messenger than acknowledge the truth of a message that exposes the shame of the tribe. People are too tribal. It's the human beings in the tribe that matter, not the tribal identity. This isn't the Stone Age. The Stone Age sucked. Let's stop living in it.

The messengers are tribal. There is no message here. No one knows what the fuck they're holding hands for. If you literally asked each NFL player individually you would get hundreds of different answers. Not just different variations of the same answer, but completely different answers. You can say that "you" know what the message is. Those on the receiving end of the "message" literally have no idea what the message is. This really is all garbage. And YES, what Trump said is garbage and completely unnecessary. This whole thing was a done deal until he opened his mouth. Dan8267 says

Since when are black community members ignoring the social issues of black communities. There are countless examples of community leaders, ministers, low-ranking politicians, charity workers, social workers, etc. vocally advocating for cultural changes, community watches, drug rehabilitation, education, and other means of fixing the various problems in poor black communities.

It's VERY clear you have not worked or interacted in a black community in any form. This is simply not true. Ministers? Are you fucking kidding me? Community leaders? These people day in and day out rob the people they claim to help of their money. Low ranking politician? Again, are you kidding? They use and abuse these people for votes. They don't give a flying fuck about them. Blacks do infinitely more harm to themselves as a group then anyone (thing) else. More than any other group in society even. I'll post this link again and you should read the book if you have time. This isn't just about crime. They literally don't care about each other in pretty much any instance. http://www.press.uchicago.edu/Misc/Chicago/443213in.html
(I ran off before posting this, so I needed to put a cherry on top)

Please seriously read this book. Cops didn't make blacks die at an extremely disproportionate number than other races in Chicago during the 1995 heat wave. As I mentioned when I posted this before, it's been a long time since I read it, so I'm sure some of my comments may contradict what's in this book. But it showcases a systemic breakdown of an entire culture, that without sugar coating it, could literally not give a shit about each other. So pardon me if my focus isn't on the 0.34% of cops, 2% of cops, 8% of cops. How about a group of people that was at one point socially moving upward, but for some reason ran into a god damn wall at some point. You can't blame that on cops. I actually don't blame blacks either. Instead of blaming anyone, we should focus on figuring out the problem and get to a solution.

TwoScoopsMcGee says

The NFL rehired Michael Vick, a man who tortured animals for profit. Aaron Hernandez killed somebody. Darrell Russel was a rapist. That's just the tip of the iceburg

And yet, the fans did not have a moral coniption about these transgressions, yet they were clearly triggered by the flag and the anthem. So, what does it say about these fans' moral compass or lack thereof?

Please rename this thread to:
2Scoops Wipes the Floor with Paid Democrat Shills

Thank you.

Was built by religious conservative people, who were patriots.

errc says

FortWayne says

NFL has let America down by catering to liberals and that stupidity.

Huh?

America was built by liberals and immigrants. You're just not smart enough to understand what this country is all about. So just sit there and be quiet

FortWayne says

Was built by religious conservative people, who were patriots.

Your both wrong. The country was built by slaves.

Here's the first part of my response. I'm gonna address it all before I respond to anything more or I'll never catch up. Some Dan remarks I'm responding to are just blockquoted because I had to cut and paste to/from Word in order to work better. I tried to be point by point.

Even if your statement is true, it is irrelevant whether or not someone perceives an action as a sign of disrespect. What matters is whether or not an action is intended as a sign of disrespect. Furthermore, it is utterly meaningless to talk about disrespect for a country. Country are imaginary entities. You can only show disrespect for people.

This is like Thatcher’s “There is no such thing as society”, which I don't believe is a correct assessment of humanity. You certainly can tell from body language, architecture, food, shared beliefs, etc. when you are in an area where one society dominates, and when you are in another. You don’t need to be an anthropologist to figure out when you are in Northern China vs. Northern Europe vs. New England. Even if you were inside a shopping mall and everybody was wearing a mask with generic contemporary decoration and construction.

I dispute the "symbols don't matter" claim. The way the protest is made illustrated that "America" was the target, not just cops. The symbol that is targeted for action is a great indicator of the actual motivation. Bipedal Savannah Apes organize into tribes, have unifying symbols that represent shared concepts or beliefs, and they regard attacks on them as an attack on the tribe. This is why it’s laughable when NFL bigwigs try to say it’s unity to kneel during the anthem, when it’s a clear sign of deliberately opposing it by perverting the traditional ritual of standing. It's like Satanists saying the Black Mass is just a way to demand attention from the Catholic Church, when it's a deliberate slight.

This is the reason the Taliban blew up the Buddha Statues, the USSR detonated the Swastikas on the top of Reich buildings and made films of it that the public instantly grokked the moment they saw them (Germans, English, Russians, Siberians, even Chinese and Japanese could get what happened just by watching the Swastika be blown up - the Soviets took Berlin), Romans marched with Fasces in front of their consuls, people put Crosses on top of tall hills, why the Nazis made the French surrender at the Forest of Compiègne, etc. All Savannah Apes understand the use of symbols and what targeting them is meant to indicate. In modern grievance circles, the US Flag and the US Anthem is regarded as Racist, Evil, and of course representing Whiteness, Slavery, etc.

I don't think of cops right away when I see the US Flag or hear the Anthem, I think of America generally, followed by the military (I envision the raising of the flag on Iwo Jima in my mind), followed by Independence Day, Fireworks, etc.

Furthermore, anyone who is more concerned with their social status than the victims of police murder, rape, and terrorism does not deserve one micron of respect. The only respectable response to the NFL protest is solidarity and concern for the problem of police crimes. It is just as offensive condemning such a gesture as it would be to condemn a gesture remembering the Holocaust victims and for the exact same reason. Such outrage shows complete disrespect for the very lives of your fellow Americans.

I’m not hearing about these kinds of acts from the Protesters. At first, it was about vague bad things that cops do to Blacks (specifically in relation to Blacks, and not everybody), then it was a response to Trump (and that's when all the players started jumping in in big numbers), and now it’s become a catch-all for the Culture War. This is what I believe has happened, whether that was the original intent was debatable, but it’s gone well beyond cops in the public perception, IMHO.

Imagine how disrespectful it is for cops to body slam a woman, rip her clothes off, and put their entire hands up the woman's vagina against her will. That's disrespectful.

That depends on the context. If she was wearing a bomb vest at the time, you can violate her to her uterus. If she was just a drunk, cop must be punished very severely. It’s very contextual.

Trivializing such a horrific atrocity is disrespectful…

I’m just not hearing the protesters refer to these kinds of acts, or any specific act as a rallying cry (ie "Remember Tawana Brawley"). They seem to have some vague grudge against cops that also touches on “Americanism”, hence their target symbols.

I know it hurts to admit when your country does something shameful and despicable.

And the shameful rate of Black Homicide? How about the celebration of gangsters and criminals across black culture, even including Middle Class Blacks with Professional Parents living in the Burbs? This isn’t whataboutery; it’s pointing out that Blacks are happy to demonize the Police (which most view as a “White” organization even if some cops are Black or Hispanic) and spend lots of time on the subject, while most avoid any Black responsibility for their Sky High (even compared to many 3rd world countries) Homicide rate. When they do acknowledge Black Homicide, that too is somehow put on America.

I’d guess the ratio of songs and other references to Bad Cops vs. Condemnation of Black-on-Black Violence is like 20:1. In the old days, it was the opposite, you heard more gripes about Violence within the Ghetto than griping about police – back when the police were far worse than today. Black subculture celebrates criminality, drug dealing, pimping, and "regulating" gang competitors, so unsurprisingly it spends a lot of time demonizing cops.

A decadent movement, once the problem is solved – say, having more black cops – it just can’t stop. Because adherents would have to move on to other problems that reflect badly upon themselves rather than external factors. So you get every more extreme and often inarticulate rather than specific demands. Abstract demands of “Fix Police Culture” instead of specifics like “More Black Cops”. More on this later…

This is Kaepernick's first Press interview.


www.youtube.com/embed/ka0446tibig

His first few remarks are anti-American, America is evil, injust, has been forever, needs to change, etc ramble..


When finally asked specifically what "Police Brutality" he refers to, he hesitates and after a few moments of stuttering comes up with something about cops getting paid leave (meaning, that in the period while the cop hasn't been charged with anything, while it's still be determined what actually happened and if any procedures/policies were violated, the government shouldn't be paying it's salaried employees - a ridiculous demand).

He mentions People of Color and Police Brutality against People of Color (that French term, as nobody says "Paints or Crayons of Color". The correct translation would be "Colored People", but that former PC word is now considered very insulting, because no reason. I0'st also deliberately dehumanizing Whites, excluded from that term but everybody else included), showing his concern is primarily racial. Kaepernick wasn't known for his politics until he started dating an Anti-American, Egyptian Muslim Woman, Nessa D'iab who grew up in Saudi Arabia with modestly wealthy parents

The next person to join him were a handful of other Ethnic Cohorts. Then a white female Lesbian.

Before the NWSL match between the Seattle Reign and Chicago Red Stars, Rapinoe took a knee during the national anthem, while the rest of her teammates remained standing. She expressed solidarity with Kaepernick, saying that, as a gay American, she knows "what it means to look at the flag and not have it protect all of your liberties," and that "it’s important to have white people stand in support of people of color on this."

It soon extended to Black Power salutes and encompassed mostly Black Athletes.


It began as ethnic gripe on behalf of "People of Color" and "Past injustices", was embraced in a Social Justice pile-on to "oppressed gays" meaning people who are blessed to make a living playing professional Soccer, and eventually embraced the Black Power Salute:

So from the beginning this was centered on Anti-Americanism and the AltLeft , not on alleged Police Brutality, with the sole example given by the first Player that cops get paid leave when under an investigation to see if they followed procedures. As usual, the AltLeft and the Ethnic Gripe Industries ignore the fact that America was one of the first countries to recognize gay marriage and prohibit discrimination against gay people.

The "Police Brutality" Kaepernick probably had in mind was Jeronimo Yanez, that White Bastard, over the death of Philando Castille. Yanez was found not guilty by a jury of his peers, he shot Castille who refused to obey his orders and made jerky movements after announcing he had a firearm; THC was found in his bloodstream.

The moral of this story should be "Don't DWI, and especially not with your family in the car" rather than "Fucking Cops!"

TwoScoopsMcGee says

His first few remarks are anti-American, America is evil, injust, has been forever, needs to change, etc ramble..

It is not evil to oppose terrorism directed against ethnic groups, or terrorism of any kind whatsoever.

More importantly, regardless of what you think of the NFL players, the message that criminal cops need to be brought to justice before honest courts rather than getting paid vacations and never answering to a court is still a good message, and important one, and absolutely the morally right thing.

The messenger is irrelevant. All the matters is the message.

TwoScoopsMcGee says

Kaepernick wasn't known for his politics until he started dating an Anti-American, Egyptian Muslim Woman, Nessa D'iab who grew up in Saudi Arabia with modestly wealthy parents

Is there ANYTHING that the fucking Muslims won't ruin?
Fuck Allah

he shot Castille who refused to obey his orders and made jerky movements after announcing he had a firearm; THC was found in his bloodstream.

The moral of this story should be "Don't DWI, and especially not with your family in the car" rather than "Fucking Cops!"

———-

Show the evidence or stop spreading such anti-American lies

TwoScoopsMcGee says

His first few remarks are anti-American, America is evil, injust, has been forever, needs to change, etc ramble..

Modern age entitlement these days. People who make millions complain about the system. Maybe he should go live in some other country for a change, to get a frame of reference.

The last time I reasoned, it gave me a tremendous headache. Reasoning is overrated.

That was in the south, cotton fields. Rest of America was built by Americans.

Dan8267 says

FortWayne says

Was built by religious conservative people, who were patriots.

Your both wrong. The country was built by slaves.

errc says

Show the evidence or stop spreading such anti-American lies

Already went to Court. Not Guilty on all counts, by a jury of his peers. Maybe he should have been tried by brain damaged millionaire professional sportsmen.

The FACT is that Mexico has always been a colony of Europe with a largely plantation-style economy. Wealthy land owners controlled that country before and after every so-called "revolution," and they still do. Why else would we see so goddam many Mexicans immigrating North for decades and decades? Use your minds!

Free speech is earned. When kap completes 20% of his 5 yd passes then he will have earned free speech
joeyjojojunior says

Free speech is bad when Kaep kneels during a national anthem

TwoScoopsMcGee says

This is Kaepernick's first Press interview.


www.youtube.com/embed/ka0446tibig

His first few remarks are anti-American, America is evil, injust, has been forever, needs to change, etc ramble..


When finally asked specifically what "Police Brutality" he refers to, he hesitates and after a few moments of stuttering comes up with something about cops getting paid leave (meaning, that in the period while the cop hasn't been charged with anything, while it's still be determined what actually happened and if any procedures/policies were violated, the government shouldn't be paying it's salaried employees - a ridiculous demand).

He mentions People of Color and Police Brutality against People of Color (that French term, as nobody says "Paints or Crayons of Color". The correct translation would be "Colored People", but th...

But Kaepernick wears a Castro shirt in honor of him. How does Cuba treat black people?