patrick.net

BorderPatrol says

as strange as this sounds, it is 100% correct. (it doesn't address the untaxable aspect of bitcoin payments and the rest of the paragraph is either completely wrong or doesn't make sense but that's another story.) crypto-currencies DO grow the economy.

Not saying you're wrong, but would love to see some IRS data on it. I haven't yet. You also almost certainly will be able to claim being correct, but at what level? Let's say the market cap of Bitcoin (I know there are a ton of others) is about $200 billion at current price. Then figure that not everyone was a winner in that market cap increasing or that not everyone sold their stake and took their profits. Then there's the tax evaders. Then the fact, in this very thread, it was stated 50% of bitcoin is held outside the US. We also know there are potentially a million or so coins that could literally just be lost and there will be no gains or losses on them ever. The amount of tax this will generate for the federal government probably doesn't even come close to touching the least valuable company in the S&P 500. Then there's the utter waste of resources in mining this stuff.

So sure, the US is collecting taxes on this. Would they have collected taxes though if these same people invested in other avenues? Would other business have created the same number of jobs with the same capital allocated to them as to crypto ? My argument would be yes. So I don't see it as a job creator, "start up" or driver of economic growth at all really. Most of the money would have been invested elsewhere will much more solid long term growth and stability. Bitcoin completely crashes and it does more harm then anything good it's done on this run up.

Again, I have not seen a compelling argument or discussion yet. My guess 99.9% of everyone here is completely working in the world of the USD. Why people are interested in devaluing their own future is kind of strange to me. Crypto gains for a US citizen are going to be transferred to dollars. This alone should scare anyone arguing there's actual value in crypto. It's a trade and not an investment or store of value.

Wookieman,
“I recently sent money to a person visiting Italy on my phone at lunch”
What fees did you incur and what system did you use?

Investing in crypto does not hurt the dollar. Investing in it lets you participate in this fast, wealth creating economy. The good news, this is just the beginning. You can’t shut down innovation. The tech is here to stay. Why not participate and gain from it? Regarding the taxes: until recently it was not crystal clear how to treat these currencies and what is a taxable event in regards to your trades. Now, it just takes minutes to calculate your taxes by utilizing bitcoin.tax (for example). People who invest in crypto will pay their taxes. You don’t ever want to be on the IRS bad boy list.

anon_3a1a3 says

What fees did you incur and what system did you use?

Paypal. Paid 5 USD fee. Owed someone 120 EU. Did this in literally 20 seconds while driving. I now won't be able to send my kids to college due to this astronomical fee.

80-90% of people don't make individual transactions with other people, in other countries, with foreign currencies. Even people and businesses that do, I really don't think you're going to cut that middle man out. Why do we still have real estate brokers? It's the exact same principle from the fee based perspective except on an infinitely higher level as a percentage of the biggest purchase you'll ever make in your life (with real estate brokers). Pretty much EVERY country has some form of real estate broker skimming off the transfer of property. Why does anyone think you can eliminate the middle man in currencies if we can't do it with real estate?

My answer is you can't and won't. I'm not arguing that this tech wouldn't be good for most. I'd actually say I'm on the side I'm arguing against right now if that makes any sense. What I'm mainly arguing is what happens to Visa, Master Card, American Express, etc? All those jobs. What happens to the tax dollars they were paying. This is exactly why it's near impossible to cut governemnt expenses. It's extraordinarily difficult to change the status quo. Uber uprooting taxi service. Fine, that's such a small sliver of the economy. Our actual currency itself, I'm just not seeing it and therefore don't see value in these cryptos.

It's a different question now, but why do we have a 3rd party, real estate brokers still? And what makes you think it's possible to get rid of the third party in currency transactions when we can't in real estate? Isn't that ultimately how crypto can and will become successful, dump the middle man?

What I'm mainly arguing is what happens to Visa, Master Card, American Express, etc? All those jobs.

They are already involved with crypto and hiring blockchain talent for the new jobs they’re creating

Exactly. Companies that don’t embrace new technology (like block chain) will end up like Kodak! Oh wait, even Kodak is trying to jump on the crypto train.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.coindesk.com/kodak-launching-cryptocurrency-photographers/amp/

anon_b7985 says

Exactly. Companies that don’t embrace new technology (like block chain) will end up like Kodak! Oh wait, even Kodak is trying to jump on the crypto train.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.coindesk.com/kodak-launching-cryptocurrency-photographers/amp/

If it provides no value, it's rather pointless to embrace it.

FortWayne says

If it provides no value, it's rather pointless to embrace it.

Not true. It's rare. Once they mine the last one there won't be anymore.
Buy now or be priced out FOREVER!

What will you tell your grandchildren when they ask you why you condemned the family to poverty when you could have bought crypto-currency?

“If it provides no value, it's rather pointless to embrace it.“

Certainly created a lot of value for me. If something that apparently has no value makes me rich I am fine with that! Keep it going! I just bought the dip!

Crypto currencies have a lot of value for people who don't like the idea that the government can confiscate all the money in a bank account at any time.

I have a friend who found this out during a dispute with the dmv. They simply confiscated the disputed amount from his checking account, and he had never even told them about the account. They can look it up by ssn.

Keep buying those dips!

Patrick says

Crypto currencies have a lot of value for people who don't like the idea that the government can confiscate all the money in a bank account at any time.

I have a friend who found this out during a dispute with the dmv. They simply confiscated the disputed amount from his checking account, and he had never even told them about the account. They can look it up by ssn.

That's true and why they are here to stay, but that doesn't make them worth $19k, likely not even $5k. Hard to say where it will eventually settle.

mell says

Crypto currencies have a lot of value for people who don't like the idea that the government can confiscate all the money in a bank account at any time.

I have a friend who found this out during a dispute with the dmv. They simply confiscated the disputed amount from his checking account, and he had never even told them about the account. They can look it up by ssn.

That's true and why they are here to stay, but that doesn't make them worth $19k, likely not even $5k. Hard to say where it will eventually settle.

Something like Tether, i.e. crypto coin which costs exactly $1 would be ideal for these people who want to be independent from the banking system but still able to transfer money electronically.

It is $6,000+ today -dropped 1 grand just today-wow!~

Wow, this will go down in history as one of the best buying opportunities. Big daddy Goes down to 5k or so and will end up at 60k in April!

anon_3a1a3 says

Wow, this will go down in history as one of the best buying opportunities. Big daddy Goes down to 5k or so and will end up at 60k in April!

Yep, all the smart cookies are liquidating their shares in stock market Ponzi scheme to be ready to go all in when BTC hits the sweet spot @ $5K.

Satoshi_Nakamoto says

Yep, all the smart cookies are liquidating their shares in stock market Ponzi scheme to be ready to go all in when BTC hits the sweet spot @ $5K.

I wonder if anyone bought at 20k and is holding?!!

Satoshi_Nakamoto says

BTC hits the sweet spot @ $5K.

Hits that number the bottom falls out IMHO. It's going to land in the $1,000-$2,500 range if I was betting on it, which I'm not. The amount of people losing money on the way down with this thinking it's going to bounce is staggering. The next few days should be interesting to say the least.

The long term? bitcoin is going to $0.

As some point, the electricity will cost more than the profit from mining, and then it is basically finished.

anon_eba5e says

The long term? bitcoin is going to $0.

As some point, the electricity will cost more than the profit from mining, and then it is basically finished.

There will still be profits to be made simply validating blocks in the blockchain even after all 21 million bitcoins are mined. It was planned that way from the beginning.

Sweet, another buying opportunity is coming up. It’s like have Christmas every two weeks. While I am no longer confident we will get the 4-5k range for big daddy (I would go in hard) I think we will form a double bottom at the 6k range. When that happens the big buy signal is flashing hard. This baby will bounce so hard, I call 1.5 trillion market cap by the end of the year. Now that regulators are on board the floodgates are open. Remember Blood on the street means buy buy buy!

20k will look very cheap once BTC hits 100k

lostand confused says

Satoshi_Nakamoto says

Yep, all the smart cookies are liquidating their shares in stock market Ponzi scheme to be ready to go all in when BTC hits the sweet spot @ $5K.

I wonder if anyone bought at 20k and is holding?!!

anon_3a1a3 says

20k will look very cheap once BTC hits 100k

lostand confused says

Satoshi_Nakamoto says

Yep, all the smart cookies are liquidating their shares in stock market Ponzi scheme to be ready to go all in when BTC hits the sweet spot @ $5K.

I wonder if anyone bought at 20k and is holding?!!

What about when it hits a bazillion?

100k this year, 500k next year, after that, prob. A million.

US regulators/government loves bitcoin

https://www.google.com/amp/s/cointelegraph.com/news/us-arizona-senate-passes-bill-to-allow-tax-payments-in-bitcoin/amp

anon_f70ca says

100k this year, 500k next year, after that, prob. A million.

Yes! Mark this twit, bitchez!

Wake me up when price goes back to $9k again.

First we go back down to 6k. We need that confirmation one more time. Big buy signal, volume will come in and from there it will be moooooning. Get ready for the fun!

anon_fad35 says

Wake me up when price goes back to $9k again.

What do you mean by back? Hits $9k or goes above it? Basically hit that yesterday, about $90 short. What's your move when that happens? We really need to know when to wake you up so we can find out how you played BTC.

Wookie, I am guessing he is referring to a point of resistance. This is about technical analysis/market sentiment. If resistance levels are broken they become support levels. 9k was a heavy point of resistance and breaking it is signaling a bullish trend. We need to bounce off the 9k a couple times to confirm the new support levels.
It’s fun to wake up and see your coins go up. It’s a great time to buy now before the next bull run starts.

Oh yea, just broke 9400! Hope we start a bull run soon. If we can hold up above 9,5k the next few days we will probably see volume come back and kick off the next bull run

https://www.zerohedge.com/news/2018-02-14/terrified-bitcoin-banks-forced-innovate-first-time-40-years
Terrified bitcoin banks forced to innovate first time in 40 years

Big daddy hit 10k again! Up and up we go!

Got so quiet here. Where are all those bitcoin haters and perma crypto bears? “It’s going to zero!!! Sell now!!”

https://twitter.com/TheEllenShow/status/964287117466640389
Ellen DeGeneres introduces Bitcoin to millions of viewers. Thank you Ellen!

anon_3a1a3 says

Got so quiet here. Where are all those bitcoin haters and perma crypto bears? “It’s going to zero!!! Sell now!!”

Still here. Markets do fluctuate. My opinion hasn't changed.

Not going to recover so quick it simply has tested the 50% loss in MC and is likely to flip big time the fact it blew through 61.8 so hard shows very good odds of a min. test of 7500/61.8 and the weight of price possibly taking it much lower then the last low of 6k tgt 4500, 2350 +/-.... Don't FOMO into BTC you will regret it, BTC has to pay for all the broken promises and general inefficiencies price discovery has just begun and will expose...

https://www.youtube.com/embed/KTf5j9LDObk

I think it’s very possible that it will
Go down hard one more timeduring this bear market/correction. I can’t see it testing less than 5-6k though. Too much demand. What ever happens, I am ready to buy more when it retraces.

anon_2fbc3 says

Not going to recover so quick it simply has tested the 50% loss in MC and is likely to flip big time the fact it blew through 61.8 so hard shows very good odds of a min. test of 7500/61.8 and the weight of price possibly taking it much lower then the last low of 6k tgt 4500, 2350 +/-.... Don't FOMO into BTC you will regret it, BTC has to pay for all the broken promises and general inefficiencies price discovery has just begun and will expose...

Thanks for giving what appears to be a solid, intelligent response. I don't necessarily grasp all the jargon (I recognize it), but it make sense somewhat.

Now BTC bulls, give me something like this. IMO I haven't seen anyone explain why they think this will continue to go up. Tell me what if I buy one coin, with my American dollars at $10k today, it will be worth $15k in say 6 months?

The pinkies already exist. I don't see how BTC is much different. Just with a whole hell of a lot less info to research on it or know who holds it.

As usual, don't take this as investment advice. There is a risk of loss.

Why tell you? It’s more fun investing in BTC, buying the dip and seeing it moon while people tell you how it’s a Ponzi and goes to zero! Put your ten bucks in stocks and get excited about 2-5% increases!