patrick.net

rando says

Strategist says

former India, which was 100% Hindus, and now barely 50% and declining

Wikipedia has it at almost 80% Hindu:

79.8% Hinduism
14.2% Islam
2.3% Christianity
1.7% Sikhism
0.7% Buddhism
0.4% Jainism
0.9% others

Former India is supposed to be all of Afganistan,pakistan, bangladesh, tibet, myanmar and India. Now india is 50% of landmass compared to its previous self. I think Strategist is talking about that. Not the population of present India.

indc says

I am ok with such educated conversion.

Who the f are you to be telling other people which of their religious beliefs you are "ok" with? Please enroll this gentleman in remedial "America 101".

indc says

TwoScoopsOfWompWomp says

Prejudice against low caste Indians is wide-spread, Often the police don't investigate. If you ever hear some wisecracking Dem voting Indian blather about the KKK, note there hasn't been a KKK lynching in the US in many decades, but this is quite common, happening frequently in India:
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2069220/Low-caste-boy-killed-high-caste-man.html

You found an 7 yr old article to make your point? if you see these news its mostly in impoverished states. Its like in US 1940-50s maybe. Once such places develop you will see less of such incidents.

Once they dump Hinduism, these places will develop. You really expect a society to develop when a large part of it's population is treated like inferiors?

indc says

Former India is supposed to be all of Afganistan,pakistan, bangladesh, tibet, myanmar and India. Now india is 50% of landmass compared to its previous self. I think Strategist is talking about that. Not the population of present India.

I am talking about the percent of Hindus that existed before vs today in the same geographical areas.
I would rather they remain Hindus than fucking Muslims, only because the world is better off with Hindus, than Muslims.

chinook06 says

indc says

I am ok with such educated conversion.

Who the f are you to be telling other people which of their religious beliefs you are "ok" with? Please enroll this gentleman in remedial "America 101".

I dont care about individual's right to religion. I care about mass conversion and the hatred they spew after conversion.

chinook06 says

indc says

I am ok with such educated conversion.

Who the f are you to be telling other people which of their religious beliefs you are "ok" with? Please enroll this gentleman in remedial "America 101".

He is giving his prejudiced opinion. Let the converts decide for themselves. If the lower caste is worse off as Indc implies by converting, let them say it. Not that I see anyone converting back to Hinduism to be a low caste.
The worst thing about anyone converting to a different religion is, you end up jumping from one sinking ship to another.

indc says

Who the f are you to be telling other people which of their religious beliefs you are "ok" with? Please enroll this gentleman in remedial "America 101".

I dont care about individual's right to religion.

That is pretty obvious.

indc says

I care about mass conversion and the hatred they spew after conversion.

If they didn't hate being inferior, they would not have converted to begin with. The way they have been treated, I'm not at all surprised.
By the way, I doubt if they care what you think.

Strategist says

indc says

TwoScoopsOfWompWomp says

Prejudice against low caste Indians is wide-spread, Often the police don't investigate. If you ever hear some wisecracking Dem voting Indian blather about the KKK, note there hasn't been a KKK lynching in the US in many decades, but this is quite common, happening frequently in India:
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2069220/Low-caste-boy-killed-high-caste-man.html

You found an 7 yr old article to make your point? if you see these news its mostly in impoverished states. Its like in US 1940-50s maybe. Once such places develop you will see less of such incidents.

Once they dump Hinduism, these places will develop. You really expect a society to develop when a large ...

Dude, do you know the whole reality of India, or you just read western media about India's news? The new generation does not care about other's religion or caste. Its the older people who are like that. Just like the old racist people in US, they dont know nothing better. They just have to die.

Well you must be part of the older people who are like that based on your comments.


indc says

Once they dump Hinduism, these places will develop. You really expect a society to develop when a large ...

Dude, do you know the whole reality of India, or you just read western media about India's news? The new generation does not care about other's religion or caste. Its the older people who are like that. Just like the old racist people in US, they dont know nothing better. They just have to die.

indc says

I care about mass conversion and the hatred they spew after conversion.

Indc:
"I dont care about individual's right to religion."

Strategist says

Well you must be part of the older people who are like that based on your comments.



indc says

I care about mass conversion and the hatred they spew after conversion.

I don't care about what they think or do. I care that they start spewing shit after conversion. The problem is with abrahamic religions which want to spread using hatred.

They have concept of "my-way or high way"

Indc:
"I dont care about individual's right to religion."

I meant to say I dont care what an Individuals opinion about his/her religion.

indc says

I don't care about what they think or do. I care that they start spewing shit after conversion. The problem is with abrahamic religions which want to spread using hatred.

Really? I don't see any love by the so called superior borns, for the inferior borns.

indc says

They have concept of "my-way or high way"

And Hindus don't? Ever considered making everyone equal?
300 million Gods, and not one of them could prevent starvation. Not one of them stood up for equality. Not one spoke out against the caste system. I would normally never ask anyone to give up, but after 300 million Gods with no success? I think you really should give up.

Man, talk about fucked up religions.

Strategist says

indc says

I don't care about what they think or do. I care that they start spewing shit after conversion. The problem is with abrahamic religions which want to spread using hatred.

Really? I don't see any love by the so called superior borns, for the inferior borns.

indc says

They have concept of "my-way or high way"

And Hindus don't? Ever considered making everyone equal?
300 million Gods, and not one of them could prevent starvation. Not one of them stood up for equality. Not one spoke out against the caste system. I would normally never ask anyone to give up, but after 300 million Gods with no success? I think you really should give up.

Can you please tell me which GOD considers everyone equal? Are you equal to Hitler since you are both christians? Do you think all your kids are equal? They get same love from you? From your wife?
Hinduism says all are not equal based on their deeds. Hinduism considers everyone is part of GOD. so we dont have to be afraid of GOD. The caste devisions are mostly class devisions. If you want to understand it read about Hinduism from "Rajiv Malhotra".

indc says

Can you please tell me which GOD considers everyone equal? Are you equal to Hitler since you are both christians?

None. No God I know of considers everyone equal. All Gods are phony's. I am an atheist.

indc says

Hinduism says all are not equal based on their deeds. Hinduism considers everyone is part of GOD. so we dont have to be afraid of GOD. The caste devisions are mostly class devisions.

Really? What wrong deeds did a newborn born of a low caste ever do? Why is that baby and it's future generations deemed to be inferior for ever?
You will never win an argument by supporting primitive beliefs deemed immoral and against the law in this country. Even India made the caste system illegal, but as we can see, it still persists.

Strategist says

indc says

Can you please tell me which GOD considers everyone equal? Are you equal to Hitler since you are both christians?

None. No God I know of considers everyone equal. All Gods are phony's. I am an atheist.

indc says

Hinduism says all are not equal based on their deeds. Hinduism considers everyone is part of GOD. so we dont have to be afraid of GOD. The caste devisions are mostly class devisions.

Really? What wrong deeds did a newborn born of a low caste ever do? Why is that baby and it's future generations deemed to be inferior for ever?
You will never win an argument by supporting primitive beliefs deemed immoral and against the law in this country. Even India made the caste system illegal, but as we can see, it still persists.

Good that you are an atheist, I am an atheist too.
But only religion that recognizes atheism is hinduism. You and i will be killed in any other part of world except in India. In traditional hinduism nobody is born with their caste. They got their caste based on their qualities. Think harry-potter where hat decides where you belong. It became more hardend in recent 600yrs.

And dont worry about India's development. Its growing at 6 to 7 percent for past 20 yrs.

indc says

Good that you are an atheist, I am an atheist too.
But only religion that recognizes atheism is hinduism.

How is that possible with 300 million Gods? You must be talking about Buddhism. It has no God. It's the most peaceful of major religions.
Buddhism is an offshoot of Hinduism, but as I don't believe in reincarnation, I would make a rotten Buddhist.
I would admit, Hinduism is a much better religion than the Abrahamic religions. The worst part of Hinduism is the caste system, which comes close, but not close enough to slavery that Abrahamic religions endorsed.

Strategist says

indc says

Good that you are an atheist, I am an atheist too.
But only religion that recognizes atheism is hinduism.

How is that possible with 300 million Gods? You must be talking about Buddhism. It has no God. It's the most peaceful of major religions.
Buddhism is an offshoot of Hinduism, but as I don't believe in reincarnation, I would make a rotten Buddhist.
I would admit, Hinduism is a much better religion than the Abrahamic religions. The worst part of Hinduism is the caste system, which comes close, but not close enough to slavery that Abrahamic religions endorsed.

Like I was saying you are just commenting based on your perception. You should really understand the religion. And hinduism does not have 300 million gods. When someone says that we can tell they dont have any understanding of its concept. It has only 1 GOD, and there are 300 millions manifestations of this "GOD head".

Human beings are hierarchal creatures, and religion has always been an effective means of consolidating hierarchy based on particular mythologies of God and spirituality.
It seems that so called egaligarian Americans spend a lot of time entertaining themselves with dramas of British aristocracy, which has thousands of widgets designed to draw distinctions between people of different classes.

The caste system is interesting because it is both very old, very specific, very rigid and apparently very effective in assigning hierarchies and roles to the 'believers'. Whether one calls it 'inferior' or 'superior', members get specific roles with specific rights. That's not really that much different from any other religion, except there is more fine print and rigid glass ceilings.

I am not sure what 'caste' I would be assigned to in a Hindu society, but it probably wouldn't seem fair and wouldn't be flattering. Hierarchal social contracts aren't really designed to be fair, they are designed to create maximum order and predictability to religious, social, legal and political interactions, and to establish traditions that everybody understands.

someone else says

Quigley says

Low caste Indians tend to convert to Christianity in fair percentages. Lots of incentive!

They also converted to Islam in large numbers historically, resulting in Pakistan and a large Muslim population still in India.

Apologists for Islam do have the point that there is no caste system in Islam. A Pakistani friend pointed out that that's only in theory though, and that the Arabs of Saudi Arabia and neighboring countries have nothing but contempt for darker-skinned Muslims.

In late 90's I heard from a co-worker in middle-east that people from around Indian subcontinent, can not visit masks of locals, the mistake will result in almost death punishment. All brown skin Muslims are unteachable people, they all have to go to their own separate Masks.

Quigley says

If you’re not Indian, your “caste” is effectively nothing, the lowest caste. That’s why almost nobody converts to Hinduism. Aside from having to believe in a bunch of silly looking gods, you’d be signing up to be the lowest class of Hindu society. Much better to be and stay a foreigner.

Oh and yes, uppity Indians of higher castes will back off if you call them out.

Low caste Indians tend to convert to Christianity in fair percentages. Lots of incentive!

>Low caste Indians tend to convert to Christianity in fair percentages. Lots of incentive!
You are right, the incentives come from the people who are not converted yet.
In India, there is a ironclad "reservation system" for the "minorities" who are Christians and mostly Muslims.
"Constitution" guarantees the massive quotas for them in the universities and government jobs irrespective of their merit.
When I visited few Bayarea churches on (non religious) events, I saw pictures on display, some are from India.
Most of them are obese, from my experience, people of this type, I can tell they mostly never try to
look for jobs. They know that there is a great demand here for sad stories and photo oped sad looking pics.
and how to make it work for them. Its a win-win situation.

Religion is a by product of human evaluation, it/they served its purpose and now
fading fast with scientific knowledge and spreading through internet.
One may be less evil than the other (we know some are deadly), otherwise all religions effectively are evil (particularly God).

Strategist says

indc says

Do you guys even know what is caste? Is your knowledge about caste from "english authors"? Its not low caste hindus who convert to christianity. It is uneducated hindus who convert to christianity. They are gullible and believe all the shit missionaries preach.

The real reason they convert is to be an equal, and not be treated as a low caste. Why would anyone want to live as an inferior being when they can live as an equal?
I think any low caste Hindu who does not convert is gullible to believe they are inferior and low caste. They should convert to any other religion, preferably to none, but definitely not to Islam.

>preferably to none, but definitely not to Islam.
Of course no one will disagree.

indc says

Regarding your comment "uppity indians of higer caste". Dont be a dick. It is not higher caste, its higher class

This is the fundamental cultural divide between Americans and Indians. The Indian immigrants I’ve known have been universally obsessed with status and class, and their pursuit of such is annoying as fuck to native born Americans. They’re unabashedly interested in self promotion, self aggrandizement, and selfish agendas. They have to make sure everyone knows of their accomplishments and anyone who is famous they have some connection to or just pestered into doing a selfie with at a concert or speaking engagement.

To Americans this is LOW CLASS behavior.

To Indians, this is them trying to assert that they are high class. And in this, they fail.

Quigley says

indc says

Regarding your comment "uppity indians of higer caste". Dont be a dick. It is not higher caste, its higher class

This is the fundamental cultural divide between Americans and Indians. The Indian immigrants I’ve known have been universally obsessed with status and class, and their pursuit of such is annoying as fuck to native born Americans. They’re unabashedly interested in self promotion, self aggrandizement, and selfish agendas. They have to make sure everyone knows of their accomplishments and anyone who is famous they have some connection to or just pestered into doing a selfie with at a concert or speaking engagement.

To Americans this is LOW CLASS behavior.

To Indians, this is them trying to assert that they are high class. And in this, they fail.

I am not questioning your observation. I am questioning your use of terminology "caste". Its negative connotations is what I want you to understand. What you say is applicable to all asians(middle-east, east asia, south-asia) I think.

indc says

I am not questioning your observation. I am questioning your use of terminology "caste". Its negative connotations is what I want you to understand.

There is nothing positive about a primitive caste system that claims some people are born superior, and some are born inferior.
You are not assigned a caste based on deeds as you claim, but by birth. Fucking stupid religious nonsense.
You can put all the lipstick you want on a pig, it's still a pig.

indc says

Quigley says

If you’re not Indian, your “caste” is effectively nothing, the lowest caste. That’s why almost nobody converts to Hinduism. Aside from having to believe in a bunch of silly looking gods, you’d be signing up to be the lowest class of Hindu society. Much better to be and stay a foreigner.

Oh and yes, uppity Indians of higher castes will back off if you call them out.

Low caste Indians tend to convert to Christianity in fair percentages. Lots of incentive!

Do you guys even know what is caste? Is your knowledge about caste from "english authors"? Its not low caste hindus who convert to christianity. It is uneducated hindus who convert to christianity. They are gullible and believe all the shit missionaries preach.

If you think christianity is so great convert a strong believer with arguments. Not a poor person with bribes.

Internet is full of people who...

I don't think it's the same thing. I live in Princeton, and the rich white assholes just bitch and moan behind you while you are in line. The Indians will try to walk right in front of you like you don't exist.

Islam is a failed experiment. Countries where Islam is dominant are at least 150-200 years behind Western Society.

theoakman says

I don't think it's the same thing. I live in Princeton, and the rich white assholes just bitch and moan behind you while you are in line. The Indians will try to walk right in front of you like you don't exist.

Let me give you an example so that you will understand those so called "upper caste hindus" you are talking about.

Lets say there are 40 people in line and the vendor says there are only 30 items he can sell. This keep happening everyday for 20 days and the rich guy is 35th person everyday, What will the "rich white asshole" do on 21st day?

It is not the culture that turns people into line cutting assholes. Its the scarcity of things that causes people to behave like that. After white men left them destitute it will take some generations to get back their humanity and surpluses. The second generation does not behave like this because they dont know what is living with limited resources does to their psyche.

Anybody who looks at another culture or society's system of hierarchies while ignoring their own is the pot calling the kettle black.

Goran_K says

Islam is a failed experiment. Countries where Islam is dominant are at least 150-200 years behind Western Society.

The whole "Islam the center of learning" is BS too.

@Curious2 is always talking about critical percentages crossed and what happens. Well, around 900-1000 most of the last Hellenes and Copts lost their Greek and converted to Arab Muslims in identity, and that was the end of "Science", which was entirely dependent on the old Greeks like Galen and Aristotle and Plato anyway. Arabs used the same bullshit "4 Humours" as Europeans used, coming from the same Greek Source. We've covered how Al-Kwarzimi was a converted Persian Jew translating HINDU systemic algebra into Persian and Arabic (and from thence into Latin).

indc says

After white men left them destitute it will take some generations to get back their humanity and surpluses.

@indc Please don't blame British colonialism on, say, Irish people, who suffered at least as much as the Indians.

"White" is not a useful term to distinguish people.

Patrick says

indc says

After white men left them destitute it will take some generations to get back their humanity and surpluses.

@indc Please don't blame British colonialism on, say, Irish people, who suffered at least as much as the Indians.

"White" is not a useful term to distinguish people.

I too dont like to use the term "white" it is too generic, but India was looted not just by british, It was also looted by dutch, french and portugese. What term do you suggest I use?

Thanks.

indc says

Patrick says

indc says

After white men left them destitute it will take some generations to get back their humanity and surpluses.

@indc Please don't blame British colonialism on, say, Irish people, who suffered at least as much as the Indians.

"White" is not a useful term to distinguish people.

I too dont like to use the term "white" it is too generic, but India was looted not just by british, It was also looted by dutch, french and portugese. What term do you suggest I use?

Thanks.

How about..... dutch, french and portugese.

Patrick says

Strategist says

Buddhism treats them better.

Quite a lot of low-caste Indians did became Buddhist:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Buddhism_in_India#Dalit_Buddhist_movement

Around a 1000 years back, by the time Hinduism started re-assimialting back Buddhism (Hinduism's own reform movement) back into its fold, islamic invasions started. Hinduism didn't have time to re-assimilate Buddhism and Islam was this new aggressive kid on the block which ate up all the Buddhists. This is what changed history. All the regions of South/Central Asia that are Islamic today where mainly Buddhists in pre-islamic times. Iran was Zorastrian. Compared to this Dalit Buddhist movement won't even appear as a blip on the radar 1000 years from now and how easy/difficult it is for Hinduism to assimilate Islam in South Asia will probably be known after another 1000 years.

Strategist says

The worst thing about anyone converting to a different religion is, you end up jumping from one sinking ship to another.

Yeah, thats what the Hindus say too. You can stay in the Universe, you can study it, you can find out different ways in which the universe manifests itself in (1 god, 300 million gods, etc), or you can ignore it (become an athist), but you can't convert in and out of an all encompassing universe. Concept of conversion is absent from Hinduism and such "modern" antics are seen as futile, embarassing, and and a distraction. One is better off spending their energies on more serious and sincere pursuits like following their native belief system rather than fooling around with Conversion. If by chance your not happy with your native path, then don't worry about it, just pick up any path or a mix of paths, or none at all and just life your life sincerely, just don't worry about it (conversion crap) too much. All paths to god are equally good, don't waste time switching lanes. There is always another life to figure out things if this one doesn't work and we are all in this in-escapable journey, LOL :-)

Offcourse I am talking only strictly "philosphical" view of conversions in Hinduism. Culturally and practically, Hinduism considers "conversion" as an attack.

TwoScoopsOfWompWomp says

We've covered how Al-Kwarzimi was a converted Persian Jew translating HINDU systemic algebra into Persian and Arabic (and from thence into Latin).

Yes, and how the "Arabic" numerals including zero go back to India, contrary to Islamic PR that claims zero for Islam. The "Arabic" numerals were only called that because Europeans using Roman numerals learned the easier Hindu numerals from Arab traders, who had copied them. In the west, zero goes back to Ptolemy, centuries prior to Islam; it was also in China and India before Ptolemy. Ancient Romans denoted zero with a blank space. PatNet has a thread on the topic. Even the ancient Egyptians had a zero, showing Egyptians didn't become stupid until they fell under Islam. (Even now, smarter Egyptians tend to be Christian, and are persecuted in a more lethal version of the dumb jocks persecuting the smart but weak nerds.)

alpo says

Yeah, thats what the Hindus say too. You can stay in the Universe, you can study it, you can find out different ways in which the universe manifests itself in (1 god, 300 million gods, etc), or you can ignore it (become an athist), but you can't convert in and out of an all encompassing universe. Concept of conversion is absent from Hinduism and such "modern" antics are seen as futile, embarassing, and and a distraction. One is better off spending their energies on more serious and sincere pursuits like following their native belief system rather than fooling around with Conversion. If by chance your not happy with your native path, then don't worry about it, just pick up any path or a mix of paths, or none at all and just life your life sincerely, just don't worry about it (conversion crap) too much. All paths to god are equally good, don't waste time switching lanes. There is always another life to figure out things if this one doesn't work and we are all in this in-escapable journey...

Buddhist and Hindu philosophy has always been fascinating and eye opening. I do see it's philosophy thriving over time.
I wonder what philosophy Islam uses, besides Jihad, Martyrdom, and violence.

curious2 says

(Even now, smarter Egyptians tend to be Christian, and are persecuted in a more lethal version of the dumb jocks persecuting the smart but weak nerds.)

You see this all over Islam dominated Middle East. They say Muslims are not the only ones in Gaza or the West Bank living in so called suppression. Christians too are in the same boat. So why don't I see any Christian suicide bombers?

My mother in law is a “converted” Buddhist, supposedly to Christianity. After much observation, I believe it was just easier for her to incorporate another “god” into her personal pantheon. Belief in one God only is pretty much not going to happen. So she still does all her traditional Buddhist stuff, but does it in secret sort of like for good luck, which she prizes above all other things. Luck is the god that underpins the entire pantheon. If you are lucky, you win at life. That’s what I observe her to believe, and it comes with the usual gambling addiction, credit card debt, and fatalistic outlook.

indc says

What term do you suggest I use?

@indc How about "foreign invaders"? That would include, say, the Mughals, who devastated India.

To add a little balance, we should point out that these invaders tended to unify their subject countries by suppressing regional rivalries. And so India was unified by the British just like Ireland was. And then India split along religious lines just like Ireland once the British Empire was weakened.

indc says

I too dont like to use the term "white" it is too generic, but India was looted not just by british, It was also looted by dutch, french and portugese. What term do you suggest I use?

rando says

To add a little balance, we should point out that these invaders tended to unify their subject countries by suppressing regional rivalries. And so India was unified by the British just like Ireland was. And then India split along religious lines just like Ireland once the British Empire was weakened.

Indc, I would further state.......All suicide bombers are brown. Should Hindus be lumped in with them, because they are brown too? I'm sure you would protest on the grounds that all suicide bombers are Muslims, none are Hindus, therefore the more correct term to use would be "Muslim suicide bombers"
The same applies when you use the term "white"