patrick.net

The OP is a chart from payscale.com with no explanation of data or processes to get that data and calc the figure.

So....making assumptions from a figure that you dont understand isn't wise. Perhaps the OP can suggest exactly what that chart is representing? I doubt it

OK, one last time....

WookieMan says

Tax revenues are up because incomes are up.

Correct. Which is exactly MY point which conflicts with the OP narrative.

WookieMan says

Revenues aren't up because you can now withhold less.

Revenues are up 9% from last year, where do revenues come from? Tax withholding on wages. Even though the lower withholding rates kicked in this year, which means the Feds get LESS income from income taxes, the revenues are still up 9%. If wages were dropping, like the OP claims, the revenue numbers would be in the minuses, even before the lower withholding rates.

How much would revenues to the .Gov be up if the old, higher withholding tables were still active? Probably MORE than 9%.

CBOEtrader says

The OP is a chart from payscale.com with no explanation of data or processes to get that data and calc the figure.

I was going to reference that. They use some obscure Payscale Index (which no one knows how or where the data comes from) to determine their report.

Then, the Opinion author from the Trump hating Bloomberg tries to "sell it" as some factual data chart.

It's so laughable,,,,,,

CBOEtrader says

Perhaps the OP can suggest exactly what that chart is representing?

I'd like to hear that too!

Goran_K says

Laziness. If you are competing for low skilled jobs your entire life, it simply means you never sought to improve your skill set or make something better of yourself.

This is the kind of easy rationalizations that keeps people from seeing the picture in front of them.

1 - First, it requires to believe that 2/3 of the population of the US became lazy and stupid, and unable to adjust. Why is it suddenly the case?
2 - There was a time when for example being a cook was a skill, now most jobs have been commoditized i.e. emptied from any skills and reduced to simple robotic gestures: you don't cook, you flip burgers. And anyone can do it. And there are hundreds of millions of people that are waiting to do it. The real restaurants that require real cooks are increasingly very few.
3 - not only these jobs are commoditized, they are increasingly automatized. Leaving less possibilities for people at the bottom.
4 - The jobs that require skills, like data scientists require so much of it that they can't be done by the average schmuck. These jobs get most of the pay gains. The top 10% get most of the gains. It doesn't mean that if 50% of people could do the job, they would get similar jobs, with these salaries. Instead only the best 1 in 10 get these jobs. It doesn't matter how hard you worked, if someone who is better than you, or more connected, took your job.

Heraclitusstudent says

Consider the hyper competition of workers for low skills jobs, and the constant job insecurity.

That's mainly an illegal immigration issue. Wages have gone up since the crackdown and you can now make significantly more for basic jobs while the globalist run panicked article after article how nobody is there to do the illegals jobs, crops wilt etc. etc. For example in SF a babysitter makes $20+/hour easily, you have to be extremely lucky to find somebody for $15. Many don't declare. That's actually not bad. Car mechanics and plumbers make great money here, often more than techies. If you have some vocational talent and are willing to put sweat in and learn such a skill you're basically set. The problem is not that there aren't enough jobs, the problem is that everybody has been duped into getting a degree in liberal arts or genders studies, then ends up in debt working minimum wage jobs. Learn how to fix HVACs, cell phones etc. and you're golden.

How come that chart looks like this?

That chart above could be the worst chart of 2018

We haven't even had a single year for those tax effects to work their way through the system. No conclusions can be drawn yet, good or bad.

Heraclitusstudent says

2 - There was a time when for example being a cook was a skill, now most jobs have been commoditized i.e. emptied from any skills and reduced to simple robotic gestures: you don't cook, you flip burgers. And anyone can do it. And there are hundreds of millions of people that are waiting to do it. The real restaurants that require real cooks are increasingly very few.

Pulling levers and pushing buttons and shoveling coal into a furnace aren't that skilled, but factory workers used to make enough to have a modest home, two cars, mom at home, TV, Junior's sports equipment and Marianne's Piano Lessons with a two week vacay at the Gulf/Lake.

What happened is that a return to mass immigration and lack of immigration enforcement flooded the labor pool.

TwoScoopsOfWompWomp says

What happened is that a return to mass immigration and lack of immigration enforcement flooded the labor pool.

This.

Heraclitusstudent says

This is the kind of easy rationalizations that keeps people from seeing the picture in front of them.

1 - First, it requires to believe that 2/3 of the population of the US became lazy and stupid, and unable to adjust. Why is it suddenly the case?

That's an easy one, how's this for the picture to answer that question.



It's tough to be a productive worker when both thumbs are always busy.

Heraclitusstudent says

3 - not only these jobs are commoditized, they are increasingly automatized. Leaving less possibilities for people at the bottom.

After looking at that picture, are you still wondering why jobs are going that way?

Heraclitusstudent says

The top 10% get most of the gains.

Because the top 10% are doing the bulk of the productive work. Why shouldn't they be rewarded?

MrMagic says

It's tough to be a productive worker when both thumbs are always busy.

I read a story about how youngsters are not developing the muscles needed to hold a pencil because they are always on their devices!

MrMagic says

Revenues are up 9% from last year, where do revenues come from? Tax withholding on wages. Even though the lower withholding rates kicked in this year, which means the Feds get LESS income from income taxes, the revenues are still up 9%. If wages were dropping, like the OP claims, the revenue numbers would be in the minuses, even before the lower withholding rates

Ok, so we're on the same page with the revenues being up. Cool. You understand though that your withholdings don't change unless you make the changes, right? So let's say you start a job in 2016 and still have that same job. If you don't change your W4, your withholdings are exactly the same as they have always been in previous tax years regardless of the new tax plan.

The 9% increase is almost exclusively due to wages. Acting like less is being withheld from paychecks and that there was still a 9% increase in tax revenues is disingenuous. People are withholding the exact same amount as they would prior to the new tax plan. Income is up or more people are working. This is good stuff. To claim people are withholding less and the revenues are up is garbage. The fact remains we won't know how this all plays out until we pay all the people back that overpaid on their taxes. Which most do.

This is REALLY getting tiresome...

WookieMan says

If you don't change your W4, your withholdings are exactly the same as they have always been in previous tax years regardless of the new tax plan.

It's not your "withholdings" it's your "exemptions" that would stay the same. The withholding amount in 2018 dropped because the tax rates dropped with the new tax plan. This is why people started seeing more money in their paychecks in February, even though they didn't change their number of exemptions on their W-4. Lower tax rates.

Understand it yet?

WookieMan says

The 9% increase is almost exclusively due to wages. Acting like less is being withheld from paychecks and that there was still a 9% increase in tax revenues is disingenuous. People are withholding the exact same amount as they would prior to the new tax plan.

Ahhh geez, wrong again.... Lets see if this helps you understand where the additional revenues flowed into the treasury.

First, the 2017 withholding tables:



Now, the new 2018 withholding tables reflecting the tax cuts:



WookieMan says

To claim people are withholding less and the revenues are up is garbage.

They're not withholding less, they're paying less income taxes from each paycheck, so less money (revenues) gets forwarded to the Treasury each month by the employer. So, the employee gets more money in their paycheck, and the Treasury gets less, but still, the collections at the treasury is up 9% YOY even with the lower tax rates (collections).

The tax charts don't lie.

Patrick says

ome vocational talent and are willing to put sweat in and learn such a skill you're basically set.

I was watching a video on mobile home park investments. I think it was Sam Zell in the video who said "50 years ago, everyone had a house, so little demand for mobile homes. Today, EVERYONE IS POOR SO DEMAND FOR MOBILE HOMES IS GOING UP EVERY YEAR."

Then the video went on to pimp (pun intended) a mobile park for sex predators as an investment opportunity. Apparently these people cant find housing anywhere, so have to move into these special parks for felons. ^^Theres so much wrong with this

WookieMan says

The fact remains we won't know how this all plays out until we pay all the people back that overpaid on their taxes.

We know exactly how it plays out. It's printed on everyone weekly pay stub now. They see exactly how much tax was taken out. You don't need to wait until the end of the year to see that.

Unless they have a big change in deductions or exemptions this year, it should play out the same as last year. Less taxes are withheld each week now, and they'll pay a lower tax rate on their return next April to coincide with it. What might make a difference in what people get back is the higher standard deduction of $24K for a couple for 2018.

MrMagic says

Revenues are up 9% from last year, where do revenues come from? Tax withholding on wages. Even though the lower withholding rates kicked in this year, which means the Feds get LESS income from income taxes, the revenues are still up 9%. If wages were dropping, like the OP claims, the revenue numbers would be in the minuses, even before the lower withholding rates.

How much would revenues to the .Gov be up if the old, higher withholding tables were still active? Probably MORE than 9%.

You really should read articles before you comment on them. The OP said HOURLY wages are down. Individual earnings tax collections are up. Individual earnings are wages, salaries, dividends, interest, personal capital gains, and other income. Revenues for FY 2018 to date are 2,224,526,000,000 which is less than the first 8 months of 2015,2016,2017. Tax collections on individual earnings are up, but overall tax collections are down.

https://www.cnsnews.com/news/article/terence-p-jeffrey/feds-collect-record-individual-income-taxes-through-may-still-run CNS is a very conservative news agency so don't bother with screaming libbie fake news.
Despite the record individual income tax collections, the federal government still ran a deficit of $532,241,000,000 over those same eight months, according to the Treasury statement.

The $2,224,526,000,000 in total tax collections through May included the record $1,143,141,000,000 in individual income taxes; the $123,707,000,000 in corporation income taxes; $753,437,000,000 in social insurance and retirement payroll taxes; $36,684,000,000 in unemployment insurance taxes; $2,878,000,000 in otehr retirement taxes; $55,695,000,000 in excise and gift taxes, $24,809,000,000 in customs duties; and $68,809,000,000 in miscellaneous receipts.

So riddle me this. If hourly wages are down, then where is the increase in tax revenue coming from? Did salaries jump suddenly and abruptly on a wide scale? Hmmm. I wonder why the stock market is barely staying even with huge buybacks? Anyone out there cashing out their stocks and taking profits? Hmm. Dividends up 15% to record high. First q 109 billion in dividends. Taxable dividends.

Might be more the the story. Just maybe.

MrMagic says

We know exactly how it plays out. It's printed on everyone weekly pay stub now. They see exactly how much tax was taken out. You don't need to wait until the end of the year to see that.

The middle class 89,000 to 140,000 will see an extra $22 per week in their paycheck on average from the tax cut. Wow a night out at mcdonalds for a family of 4.

bob2356 says

extra $22 per week in their paycheck on average from the tax cut. Wow a night out at mcdonalds for a family of 4.

Winning!

bob2356 says

You really should read articles before you comment on them.

Interesting, how a poster want to lecture another poster about financial matters after a post like this:

bob2356 says

I'm missing something here. 40 (24+7+9) identify as dem, 46 (11+6+19) idenify as rep and you say the poll is padded with dems. How does that work exaclty?

The way I learned math is that (11+6+19) = 36, but this is how math is taught in my state. Apparently it's taught differently in others....

MrMagic says

bob2356 says

I'm missing something here. 40 (24+7+9) identify as dem, 46 (11+6+19) idenify as rep and you say the poll is padded with dems. How does that work exaclty?

The way I learned math is that (11+6+19) = 36, but this is how math is taught in my state. Apparently it's taught differently in others....

Wow sniper/cic/ovacation/mrmagic/godonlyknowshowmanyalts you caught my math mistake. Serves me right for posting while doing other things. Unlike some posters I'm not going to change my name or quickly delete or edit the post/thread if I make a mistake or find I am wrong. . At least I understand the math, even if I made a quick number transposition. Want to go back to discussions on rates of change or even more fun changes in the rates of change again?

Maybe people might want to address the actual issue at hand or show how I am wrong on THIS subject. What a thought.

bob2356 says

So riddle me this. If hourly wages are down, then where is the increase in tax revenue coming from? Did salaries jump suddenly and abruptly on a wide scale? Hmmm. I wonder why the stock market is barely staying even with huge buybacks? Anyone out there cashing out their stocks and taking profits? Hmm. Dividends up 15% to record high. First q 109 billion in dividends. Taxable dividends.

Crickets chirping.

Hourly wages down, salaries really didn't change, unemployment rate hanging right at 4% all year. workforce participation didn't change, new tax tables collect LESS taxes. So what income increases are driving the increase in individual collections? Remind me again how much the tax cut is helping the 99%.

What about the deficit being up 23% YTD. When will the tax cut be wiping out the deficit? In another year there will be a trillion dollar deficit in a booming economy. A record that no one has ever achieved before or even gotten close to. What happened to the evils of deficits from the party of fiscal responsibility?

“The issue is the debt. People aren’t clamoring to invest in Greece today, If we don’t begin to deal with our debt and deficit in a serious way, we’re not going to have many options." Boehner 2012.

“The Speaker and I have been the adults in the room, arguing that we ought to do something about the nation’s most serious long-term problem of debt and deficit” Mcconnal 2012

I guess it's not a serious problem any more. MAGA.

bob2356 says

Hourly wages down, salaries really didn't change,

Look who's back to show us more awesome math skills, and wrong assumptions.

You should really read the WHOLE thread before posting additional nonsense.

MrMagic says

From the bea tables:

MrMagic says

bob2356 says

Hourly wages down, salaries really didn't change,

Look who's back to show us more awesome math skills, and wrong assumptions.

You should really read the WHOLE thread before posting additional nonsense.

Personal income up 2% fiscal year 2018 up less than 1% since the tax cut as per the BEA table Like I said really didn't change. Average payroll tax collection decrease under the new law 2%. Ok where is the 9% growth in individual income tax collections coming from? Feel free to provide the CORRECT assumptions. Not that it will ever happen.

Let me give you some hints. Before every tax cut there is a drop in revenues and a spike in revenues afterwards that lasts a short time, almost always less than a year. Tax cuts tale a long time to pass and people have plenty of time to plan. Look up the words deferred income and accelerated deductions. Duh Yuh think? Add in big dividends and taking profits on stocks from the spike in corporate profits. Oh wait. those things aren't on the income chart. Here is a neat statistical trick dearly beloved by the laffler fanatics. Only look at the year before a tax cut and the year after. Voila, magic. Tax cuts raise revenue. Nothing to do with people gaming the tax cut to pay the least taxes at all. Not even a tiny bit. The problem is that the magic disappears after the magic period ends.
www.youtube.com/embed/YWyCCJ6B2WE

bob2356 says

Ok where is the 9% growth in individual income tax collections coming from? Feel free to provide the CORRECT assumptions. Not that it will ever happen.

MrMagic says

OK, how's this?



https://www.cbo.gov/system/files?file=2018-07/54126-MBR.pdf

MrMagic says

You should really read the WHOLE thread before posting additional nonsense.

MrMagic says

MrMagic says

OK, how's this?

Trolling, trolling.

We established individual income taxes at least 20 posts ago. You didn't catch that some how? Maybe you should read the WHOLE thread before posting additional nonsense. The question is what part of individual income taxes is driving the 9% increase if wages are only slightly up, unemployment didn't go down, and wage tax collections are lower. But you knew that when you posted additional nonsense. More trolling to come Watch this space.

bob2356 says

The question is what part of individual income taxes is driving the 9% increase if wages are only slightly up,

MrMagic says

https://www.cbo.gov/system/files?file=2018-07/54126-MBR.pdf

Need help reading?

Pulling levers and pushing buttons and shoveling coal into a furnace aren't that skilled, but factory workers used to make enough to have a modest home, two cars, mom at home, TV, Junior's sports equipment and Marianne's Piano Lessons with a two week vacay at the Gulf/Lake.

What happened is that a return to mass immigration and lack of immigration enforcement flooded the labor pool.

Also consider the entry of women en mass into the labor force. The economy adjusted somewhat to a two-income household.

MrMagic says

Need help reading?

Need help understanding the question? Apparently so. I used small words and typed very slowly so I don't know where to go from here to make it more comprehensible. .