patrick.net

marcus says

But when someone comes on TV

You mean when he expresses his opinion on his social media channel or personally owned radio station?

Its is absolutely tyrannical to censor political speech, no matter what form his takes. Should we censor the daily show for using snippets of facts strung together in jokes that hit too fast to make sense yet are designed to push a narrative?

If the koch brothers censored left wing extremists like madonna for example, you'd have a huge problem w it.

I'd prefer anyone could say anything whatsoever. Of speech is to be policed, can we at least have some fair treatment rather than selective censorship?

Cause it sure likes the left just points and says, "that influential non believer needs to be silenced." You are insane if you think AJ is the last (or the first).

marcus says

So Fort Wayne joins CBOE in labeling the entire democratic party as nazis ? Isn't that close enough to to invoke Godwins law ?

I’d estimate that 75% of the Democrat politicians view extreme Leftists with skepticism at least, and don’t agree with their ideas. Of those, precious few have made any attempt to distance themselves from that hateful and extreme rhetoric.

If the extreme Leftists are Nazis, or at least Nazi-adjacent, what do we call the politicians who just go along with them without criticizing their radical agenda? Maybe they’re afraid of being on the wrong side of a movement or losing votes or whatever.
Let’s ask this a different way: what do we call Germans who joined the Nazi party in the 1930s just so they wouldn’t have to have a conflict with greater German society? Are they still Nazis, even though they may not have fully believed the hateful message of that party? History would argue that actions always trump feelings or words. When you gas a million Jews, you don’t get a free pass because you weren’t really that into it.

Same thing applies when you support repealing the Bill of Rights because it seems politically expedient.

CBOEtrader says

IQ doesnt matter?

Are you trying to be ironic ?

CBOEtrader says

Before I laugh too much, please clarify

I already did.

Left blame whites for everything
Nazis blames Jews for everything

Left promoting removal of whites from society
Nazis promotes removal of Jews from society

Left demand everything white be removed from culture and their property redistributed
Nazis demanded everything Jew be removed from culture and their property redistributed.

Nazis were socialists
Left is socialist

Plenty of same there. And when kamela Harris gets elected, you’ll see it even more vividly. Left isn’t far from burning people alive.

marcus says

FortWayne says

Your party is Nazi, Marcus, you are just too bought into it to see it.

So Fort Wayne joins CBOE in labeling the entire democratic party as nazis ? Isn't that close enough to to invoke Godwins law ? Not that it isn't idiotic enough anyway to speak for itself.

I don't agree that SJWs are anything like Nazis. I don't agree with them, on their emphasis on identity politics or on their tendencies to want their campuses to be safe spaces from free speech. But they are a small minority of the democratic party. The censorship meme association with the left is way overblown.

Alex Jones got people riled up that Sandy Hook didn't actually happen. That type of conspiracy theory is completely different than whacky ones about the Bush family being reptilians or whatever. Because it's taking tragedy that happened to people and making a mockery of it. People have harassed some o...

Those against free speech are really against free thought.

FortWayne says

Left blame whites for everything
Nazis blames Jews for everything

Republitards blame "liberals" for everything

FortWayne says

Left promoting removal of whites from society

Yeah there was that one whacko SJW on twitter with a comment that almost implied that.

FortWayne says

Left isn’t far from burning people alive.

Just a tad hyperbolic don't you think ?

marcus says

IQ differences, which are different on average but at the level of selected individuals it's irrelevant.

This is correct. There are average differences between groups but that fact does not determine the IQ of any individual.

James Damore was trying to make this very point with respect to female interest in engineering (very low, on average) but got fired from Google because of it. Everything he said was correct, but it did not fit the Inquisition's narrative of "bad white men" (not Asian men, somehow) stopping women from being engineers. Here is his graph from the memo that got him fired:



What we have now is a violently intolerant cabal which refuses to question its own orthodoxy, no matter how harmful or how provably false. They have control over almost all employment, public education, university policy, and the media both old and new.They will fire anyone who dares speak up for the truth, and will even set upon them with clubs if they try to speak at universities. And now they are attempting overt censorship online.

The fact that Google fired Damore for speaking sympathetically and correctly about these factual differences proves that Google is evil.

We are in desperate need of uncensorable distributed discussion and search systems. I think it could be done with browser-to-browser communication.

marcus says

Are you trying to be ironic ?

Are you just trolling now? You accuse me of misunderstanding JP, then you completely misrepresent what JP says about IQ and refuse to clarify your statement. sigh

TBC, JP specifically identifies the race IQ differentials and the subsequent differential in life success. He states that the tyrannical progressives who want to blame the patriarchy are flat wrong. As long as we arent allowed to discuss things like IQ differential without fear of being labelled racist, we dont have a chance to solve problems like this.

So, please let the forum know how you will misinterpret JP's truthful message into your flawed worldview.

marcus says

FortWayne says

Left isn’t far from burning people alive.

Just a tad hyperbolic don't you think ?

A little, but not much. Please see torture of a trump supporter. Low IQ Don Lemon refused to call this act evil:www.youtube.com/embed/99q0wO0ZjfE

Here's a shortlist of attacks on Trump supporters : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dUVuzbfu3aQ

Here's a recent example of a mob hunting down Trump supporters in LA :http://www.latimes.com/local/lanow/la-me-ln-proud-boys-bar-20180717-story.html

And a shortlist of conservatives censored for having wrongthink opinions: http://www.foxnews.com/tech/2016/05/26/10-times-facebook-censored-conservatives.html

Noone is pretending it is ALL LEFTISTS, just like most Germans in pre ww2 probably had no intention of physically assaulting Jews. However the establishment is absolutely left leaning and oppressing Trump supporters, with the silence and implied support of the masses. This is VERY MUCH like the 1930's Nazi's, wherein most Germans were happy that Jews were separated/censored/not allowed professorial jobs, etc...I'm sure those Germans who supported soft oppression never thought the Nazi's would kill every Jew they could. Pick up a history and learn how/why/when humanity devolves into its worst form. Today's left is showing all the signs of going full Nazi

Patrick says

What we have now is a violently intolerant cabal which refuses to question its own orthodoxy, no matter how harmful or how provably false. They have control over almost all employment, public education, university policy, and the media both old and new.They will fire anyone who dares speak up for the truth, and will even set upon them with clubs if they try to speak at universities. And now they are attempting overt censorship online.

who does this sound like?

Any voice that reminded America of her wickedness, she sought to destroy that voice. America wants to silence my voice. Jews want to silence my voice. But if you silence the Voice of Truth that shows you a mirror of yourself, how then can you change and save yourself?— MINISTER FARRAKHAN (@LouisFarrakhan) August 7, 2018

Jack Approved Tweet!

I reported it. I'm sure Twitter will suspend or ban Farrakhan's account.

Free Speech is more than the #1A. It's a societal value. And your turnabout still doesn't explain the Leftist hypocrisy in the original graphic.

And of course, a huge difference between one of a hundred bakeries in an area, and a literal handful of huge corporate social media tech giants.

Like I said, if Harry who personally runs his own bakery doesn't want to bake a cake, you can go to Tom, Dick, Larry, Laura, Linda, Mary's bakery. Or a few blocks over another 10 bakeries.

If Sprint, Verizon, T-Mobile, and AT&T refuse to provide you cell service, you're fucked.

And yes, I DO believe in different standards between small businesses and multinational corporations. Have said so before.

Pretty weird that Farrakhan Speeches, #KillAllMales, and ISIS shit don't get taken down from Youtube.

TwoScoopsOfWompWomp says

Pretty weird that Farrakhan Speeches, #KillAllMales, and ISIS shit don't get taken down from Youtube

It's almost like gasp they are targeting one group w biased interpretations of their own rules.

"Seems totes fair" - moderate leftists.

Let's say we're at war with Nazi Germany, would the free speech libertarians here let nazi Americans run large scale propaganda operations in the US aimed sinking American morale, while American soldiers are fighting and dying in Europe?

I'm all for free speech in general, but not free propaganda.

There is a level of naivete in the arguments brought forth here.

Heraclitusstudent says

would the free speech libertarians here let nazi Americans run large scale propaganda operations in the US aimed sinking American morale

Depends what you mean. Are you talking about a foreign economic tyrant owning the NYT? Or a globalist, also richest man on earth who gets billion $ deals w the CIA own the WashPo. Or perhaps you are talking about UK spies leaking salacious rumors about a POTUS candidate to effect our elections? Or are you talking about Russian nationals releasing actual emails sent by a POTUS candidate to the public? Or are you talking about China buying Hollywood studios to push their agenda? Or are you talking about Russian nationals buying divisive advertising?

^^ the only fair effective way to fight back against a world of lies and deception is to allow a 1st amendment wherein people can freely speak truth to power.

It seems like you would prefer a biased (everyone is biased) beaurocrat pick and choose what is propaganda vs what is is truth. You really think a Ministry of Truth is a good idea? Yeah... how about we just have a bullet proof 1st amendment and call it a day.

Heraclitusstudent says

There is a level of naivete in the arguments brought forth here.

You want a Ministry of Truth, and assume those who dont are naive? Lol, please read about the history of censorship and its murderous results. Censorship will lead to terrible things.

"Wherever they burn books, in the end will also burn human beings." - Heinrich Heine

CBOEtrader says

^^ the only fair effective way to fight back against a world of lies and deception is to allow a 1st amendment wherein people can freely speak truth to power.

You're not fighting back. You just creates clans of people living in echo chambers, and the country is collapsing every day a bit more under the false beliefs, ultra-polarized society, strident accusations, and increasingly, violent reactions.

CBOEtrader says

Depends what you mean. Are you talking about a foreign economic tyrant owning the NYT? Or a globalist, also richest man on earth who gets billion $ deals w the CIA own the WashPo. Or perhaps you are talking about UK spies leaking salacious rumors about a POTUS candidate to effect our elections? Or are you talking about Russian nationals releasing actual emails sent by a POTUS candidate to the public? Or are you talking about China buying Hollywood studios to push their agenda? Or are you talking about Russian nationals buying divisive advertising?

I asked a simple question: would you let nazi Americans run large scale propaganda, for example showing captured or killed Americans, while American troops are fighting against the same nazis in Europe?

Yes or no?

CBOEtrader says

You want a Ministry of Truth, and assume those who dont are naive? Lol, please read about the history of censorship and its murderous results. Censorship will lead to terrible things.

You certainly don't need to censure reasonable exchange of ideas. Debates are not propaganda. There is a clear difference.

Heraclitusstudent says

Let's say we're at war with Nazi Germany, would the free speech libertarians here let nazi Americans run large scale propaganda operations in the US aimed sinking American morale, while American soldiers are fighting and dying in Europe?

Sure, if you mean there's a "war war" on that includes a draft call, an actual declaration of war, and a national war footing. Or at least 2 of those 3.

Not a mere cooling of relations.

Also, bitching about Russian Influence with a few bucks spent on Facebook while Saudis, Qataris, Norwegians, Mexicans, Japanese, Chinese, Germans, and god knows how many Oligarchs from Soros to Slim pump money into politics, think tanks, lobbyists, etc. is kind of misfocused, IMHO. Everything from University Chairs to Think Tanks to Conferences to Paid Lobbyists, involving millions upon millions of dollars direct from national governments, plus countless bucks via NGOs and Companies and Individuals of these nations.

Hillary's 13 fundraisers in foreign countries.
https://sunlightfoundation.com/2016/03/17/hillary-clinton-campaign-totals-13-fundraisers-in-foreign-countries/

The Clinton's Moroccan Money Mess
https://www.politico.com/story/2016/11/clinton-foundation-morocco-marrakech-230717

Morocco, that pinnacle of Democracy.

Heraclitusstudent says

You're not fighting back. You just creates clans of people living in echo chambers, and the country is collapsing every day a bit more under the false beliefs, ultra-polarized society, strident accusations, and increasingly, violent reactions.

Somehow these millions upon millions haven't gotten the same level of scrutiny from WaPo and the NYT. Oligarchs don't want the sums given to Hillary by Foreign Countries, many of which are Authoritarian Non-Democracies (and connected to terrorists) compared to the sums allegedly spent by Russia on promoting BLM issues on Facebook.

Heraclitusstudent says

You're not fighting back.

I am not the first amendment. Perhaps you missed my point.

Lets be clear. Answer this question: would you rather have a 1st amendment, or a ministry of truth? There is no 3rd option.

I choose a 1st amendment. You?

Heraclitusstudent says

I asked a simple question: would you let nazi Americans run large scale propaganda, for example showing captured or killed Americans, while American troops are fighting against the same nazis in Europe?

This is a bizarre hypothetical which you are using to dodge the conversation. No, I do not think we should block those ISP's for Americans to search out and view, if that's what you mean.

How about you answer my real world question now? Which of the dozens of identified propaganda campaigns would you shut down? Better yet, to whom do you grant this judgement?

My argument is that noone deserves this power, and the only functional effective way to combat propaganda is the 1st amendment.

The only alternative to 1st amendment is a ministry of truth. So choose: do you want a ministry of truth or a 1st amendment?

Democrats, 2005: We have a right to disagree and debate with this Administration!
Democrats, 2018: You have no right not to disagree and debate with this Russian-backed Administration!

Unbelievable oppression of those Freedom Voices expressing Dissent.


Tuck Buckford hahaha. Alex Jones got booted off Social Media, lost the Info War hahahahaha!

TwoScoopsOfWompWomp says

spent by Russia on promoting BLM issues on Facebook.

This was maybe a few hundred thousand, if they ran terribly inefficient ads. If they're halfway intelligent, they could get the reported reach w $50k or so. That includes the pro hillary and pro trump ads. Even if you assume they spent more on trump, we are MAYBE talking about $25k of Russian bought ads for the Donald. Glad we spent a few hundred million researching this influence when we completely ignore the multiple hundreds of $millions noted in twoscoops post above.

A 1st amendment would solve this problem. Let individuals point out and discuss facts. Meet propaganda w well reasoned argunents. The propaganda will be shown to be lies against the truth. This is why propagandists ALWAYS want to eliminate the 1st amendment. This is also why the 1st amendment is the best and only way to fight nack against propaganda.

The question remains: would you choose a 1st

Patrick says

The fact that Google fired Damore for speaking sympathetically and correctly about these factual differences proves that Google is evil

Isn't "evil" a little strong for erring on the side of political correctness - or on the side of their agenda - which may be about more than political correctness.

There's a paradoxical aspect to this. Considering that fully one half or so of the population is below average in intelligence, and even many above average folks are susceptible to propaganda, it's not surprising that some true facts end up being suppressed from being thrown around in careless ways, as CBOE did with is rather extreme mischaracterization of Jordan Peterson point about IQ.

That's exactly the reason for being careful. Otherwise intelligent people will use actual facts, that are misunderstood, to justify believing what they want to believe, which you yourself argue (and exemplify) is dependent more on self interest than it is on objective analysis of what's true.

If true facts were being censored from long form discussions by the intelectual dark web, then you would have a cause for concern, but that's where cases such as Damore's are given analysis. Google will ultimatley have to adjust based on what deeper analysis reveals to have been an error.

But meanwhile the agenda of having more women in stem will continue based on the theory (although possibly wrong) that more women in stem, (actually computer science specifically) will lead to still more women in stem, just by virtue of it being less male dominated. I question this strategy.

Btw, the fact is that in some stem fields such as health care, women are very well represented. I believe that at this point the yearly numbers of new doctors in the U.S. are higher for women than for men. Or if not, definitely more women in medical school than men.

marcus says

and even many above average folks are susceptible to propaganda,

Hypnotists will tell you that above average people are easier to manipulate. Pretending like you are immune to manipulation is about the surest way to be manipulated.

marcus says

as CBOE did with is rather extreme mischaracterization of Jordan Peterson point about IQ.

You are the one mis-characterizing JP, and using his statements to rationalize your bias. I've asked you to clarify your statements, but you wont. I, however, have been crystal clear.

JP specifically calls out the SJW types who blame the patriarchy as a misguided, when in fact differences of success are largely explained by IQ differences. He has been very clear about this many, many times. Please explain what you feel is missing in this perspective

marcus says

Google will ultimatley have to adjust based on what deeper analysis reveals to have been an error.

Or they will just label facts as racist and censor everything, which is what they've been doing. https://torontosun.com/2017/08/01/free-speech-advocate-jordan-peterson-suspects-political-reasons-might-have-been-behind-google-shutdown/wcm/41894f5b-5dca-4ad1-a076-ed7267b4ace4

marcus says

Isn't "evil" a little strong for erring on the side of political correctness

No, political correctness is about thought control. It is well deserved to be described as evil.

marcus says

I believe that at this point the yearly numbers of new doctors in the U.S. are higher for women than for men.

I dont know exact numbers, but it my understanding that women out number men for entry level medical doctors. It is also my understanding that this is not due to bias, just a representation of women being highly interested in and attracted to the profession. ^^ if true, there is NOTHING wrong w this.

If the medical profession decided to put limits on women vs men for equality purposes, THAT would be WRONG. Unfortunately, in every respected field where men dominate this is happening. This is exactly why James Damore spoke out. Absolutely evil to oppress him for discussing facts. I'm shocked that anyone would disagree but here we are. #moderateleftist

CBOEtrader says

when in fact differences of success are largely explained by IQ differences. He has been very clear about this many, many times. Please explain what you feel is missing in this perspective

Actually he uses the word competence, which is not the same as IQ. Btw I did clarify my point in post # 99

This is what you said earlier, first you stated this gem:

CBOEtrader says

go tweet an article discussing the IQ differential between blacks and whites. Watch how quickly you get shut down.

Then in a later comment this:

CBOEtrader says

Do you disagree with your hero JP who feels this IQ discussion is at the core of societal importance? Sorry, I do agree w JP. If society wants to fixate on equality of results, it is imperative to discuss differences in IQ levels that drive those results rather than blaming white patriarchy.

Taking these points together - you seem to think that African Americans who feel disenfranchised, or libtards speaking on their behalf, want to blame the Patriarchy for their difficulties, when in fact the true cause of difficulties are their intherant inferior intellect. And that somehow Jordan Peterson is on your side backing this point of view.

Please explain what I'm getting wrong here.

By the way, Jordan Peterson actually is on the record agreeing that people with your point of view shouldn't even be allowed to be in the conversation.

See the part that starts at 12:30

www.youtube.com/embed/E1PeOfbT_q0

marcus says

when in fact the true cause of difficulties are their intherant inferior intellect

That may play a small part as JP said but it's the culture which is the true cause. There are plenty of successful AAs and they all have one in common - they left the leftoid plantation victim culture. The real oppressors are the leftoids/Dems who tell AAs which way they must vote (clearly an admission that leftoids erroneously think they are mentally superior) and even have the audacity to insult and harass AAs that don't conform to their plantation politics (e. Candace, Diamond & Silk etc.).

CBOEtrader says

You mean when he expresses his opinion on his social media channel or personally owned radio station?

When someone spreads conspiracy theories as if they are proven and being hidden by the government, that is theories that actually hurt people or that hurt political candidates with only that intention, or even if it's not intended, and just propaganda generated by Oligarchs *Russian or our own) it's far different than someone simply expressing an opinion.

This is even more true when hate and fear rage so high on the right. It's immoral and against America's best interest to manipulate people based on that hate and fear that's been nurtured so much by the right wing media for decades now. He calls himself an entertainer, and he feels self righteous becasue of the haters that love having justification for more fear and more hate.

Decreasing extremism on both sides of the political spectrum would be beneficial, if we hope to ever productively address very real problems that are going to need to be addressed.

marcus says

Actually he uses the word competence, which is not the same as IQ

He specifically mentions IQ differences between races. I'm not sure why you are rejecting this fact.

marcus says

When someone spreads conspiracy theories as if they are proven and being hidden by the government, that is theories that actually hurt people or that hurt political candidates with only that intention, or even if it's not intended, and just propaganda generated by Oligarchs *Russian or our own) it's far different than someone simply expressing an opinion.

Who gets to decide what speech equals what you describe? I think Rachel Maddow is a comically unhinged conspiracy theorist. Should RM be banned? So far there is zero evidence of Russian collusion w Trump. Should Trump use the federal govt powers to shut down CNN and others who parrot the Russian conspiracy theory?

Again, the point is that no person should have this power. The only reasonable solution is an iron clad 1st amendment. The only alternative is a ministry of truth. Unfortunately people disagree on truth, so who gets to be the minister of truth?