patrick.net

Meh, it's just a lot of drama, signifying nothing. Musk should just have his Twitter account taken over by a PR company, but he should continue to run his companies. SpaceX is doing amazing things. Have you ever driven a Tesla? They're pretty fucking great.

Evan F. says

SpaceX is doing amazing things.

Like blowing up expensive satellites, and theorizing about going to Mars?

I can't say I have a legitimate complaint about the product. I know a former co-worker who was planning to start storing his extra electricity in Tesla batteries(not the car ones), once SDGE stopped paying him for it. It's the way the company's run that makes me skittish. For sure Musk has had some great ideas, but he's way over-leveraged between the handouts, and the pre-orders.

NuttBoxer says

but what else do you call a company that is largely supported by government programs, and requires you to pay up front for a car you may never get?

Snake Oil Salesman?

Remember, regarding selling their cars, "A Fool and his Money, are soon parted".

OP needs to learn what a Ponzi scheme is.

NuttBoxer says

...but what else do you call a company that is largely supported by government programs...

Lockheed Martin
Northrop Grumman
Rockwell Collins
Airbus
Bombardier
Boeing
Raytheon
L-3
General Dynamics
SAIC
Booz Allen
IAP
Harris
Honeywell
GE
US Postal Service
American farmers
Pharmaceuticals

NuttBoxer says

and requires you to pay up front for a car you may never get?

Who paid in-full for a vehicle that they did not receive? Name one person.

Elon is kicking ass and taking names, delivering on the vast majority of his promises. Salty haters gonna hate.

If you think Musk is going to prison or any of those lawsuits have any legs, you're delusional.

AntiOcasioCortez says

MrBark says

Who paid in-full for a vehicle that they did not receive? Name one person.

Elon is kicking ass and taking names, delivering on the vast majority of his promises. Salty haters gonna hate.

Everywhere on the Internet there are Musk Fluffers who just keep OD'ing on the Kool Aid...and then respond like you are doing.

It's now a de-facto crime to call out Tesla/Musk for their VERY REAL BS as far as the Musk Cult Fluffers are concerned.

Oh my! This means I can't post this:

Bumper Falls Off Brand New Tesla Model 3 After 30 Minutes and Some Rain

There is little BS happening at Tesla. Just very delusional conspiracy types wishing for an American company to fail. No wonder he wants to go private.

Should I start posting photos of Honda Civics and F150's with mismatched seats.

Lash out lol. I can post links too. Happens to the best manufactures in the world...

Ford F150 with the wrong driver seat delivered to a dealer:
https://jalopnik.com/you-really-want-your-ford-f-150-to-have-this-defect-1788085147

Mismatched interior on a Civic.
https://www.civicx.com/threads/mismatched-interior-trim-pieces.4566/

NuttBoxer says

Like blowing up expensive satellites, and theorizing about going to Mars?

Nope, more like dominating commercial satellite launch business:



PS. See how they devoured Russia's lunch? Bwa-ha-ha-ha.

NuttBoxer says

You may think I'm exaggerating, but what else do you call a company that is largely supported by government programs, and requires you to pay up front for a car you may never get?

No such company in America.

What do you call a company whose innovations will make the cost of energy almost zero, clean up pollution, and put the Saudis in BK?
Answer: Tesla.

Musk is pushing tech on the cutting edge. Of course there’s risk to this strategy, and he’s made mistakes (like trying to fully automate car production). However he’s also putting his money out there in an attempt to drag the human race back to space exploration, and building cars that are seriously cool. He’s the entrepreneur needed to dream big enough to actually change the stagnation that’s mothballed our space program into the boring drudgery of bureaucracy.

I wish him well.

I also want a space force! Go Trump!

Musk is burned out.
He needs rest.

DASKAA says

Nope, more like dominating commercial satellite launch business:

Exactly.

The dude is eccentric and pops off on Twitter. But what Musk has already achieved with SpaceX is astronomical. In about a decade, he has achieved more than NASA, China and Russia in terms of getting costs down for flights to low earth orbit.

Many of the Musk haters are SJW Libs who are pissed that he doesn't tow the line like the rest of the Tech Biz Libs.
www.youtube.com/embed/YHB6-wDvQOA

NuttBoxer says

but what else do you call a company that is largely supported by government programs,

The Tesla fanboys aren't going to like this...

Elon Musk's growing empire is fueled by $4.9 billion in government subsidies.

And he's built those companies with the help of billions in government subsidies.

Tesla Motors Inc., SolarCity Corp. and Space Exploration Technologies Corp., known as SpaceX, together have benefited from an estimated $4.9 billion in government support, according to data compiled by The Times.

"He definitely goes where there is government money," said Dan Dolev, an analyst at Jefferies Equity Research. "That's a great strategy, but the government will cut you off one day."

http://www.latimes.com/business/la-fi-hy-musk-subsidies-20150531-story.html

As Tesla tax credits disappear, will Model 3 deposit-holders stick around?

When Tesla began taking reservations for the new Model 3 electric sedan in March 2016, Dorfman got in line at a Tesla retail store near his Calabasas home. He waited hours to lay down a $1,000 refundable deposit.

That was two years and three months ago. He’s still waiting for his car. And now he’s worried that he might not get a $7,500 federal tax credit that was key to his purchase decision.

Dorfman is not impressed. He bought into Musk’s promotion of the car, he said, as a $35,000 vehicle for the masses. The federal government’s $7,500 tax credit for buyers of electric cars would lower the price to $27,500.

“I don’t want to say lied to, but it seems like we’ve been duped, taken advantage of,” Dorfman said. “I don’t know (Musk) personally, but his statements, what people relied on, and what’s happened? Those are two different things.”

http://www.latimes.com/business/autos/la-fi-hy-tesla-tax-credit-subsidy-20180703-story.html

MrMagic says

NuttBoxer says

but what else do you call a company that is largely supported by government programs,

The Tesla fanboys aren't going to like this...

Elon Musk's growing empire is fueled by $4.9 billion in government subsidies.

And he's built those companies with the help of billions in government subsidies.

Tesla Motors Inc., SolarCity Corp. and Space Exploration Technologies Corp., known as SpaceX, together have benefited from an estimated $4.9 billion in government support, according to data compiled by The Times.

"He definitely goes where there is government money," said Dan Dolev, an analyst at Jefferies Equity Research. "That's a great strategy, but the government will cut you off one day."

http://www.latimes.com/business/la-fi-hy-musk-subsidies-20150531-story.html

Space X takes government contracts. Just like any of these companies:

Lockheed Martin
Northrop Grumman
Rockwell Collins
Airbus
Bombardier
Boeing
Raytheon
L-3
General Dynamics
SAIC
Booz Allen
IAP
Harris
Honeywell
GE

The loan Tesla got from the DOE and paid it back in full with interest 9 years early by the way...

MrBark says

Space X takes government contracts.

FYI, government subsidies and government contracts are two completely separate animals.

AntiOcasioCortez says

MrBark says

Ford F150 with the wrong driver seat delivered to a dealer:
https://jalopnik.com/you-really-want-your-ford-f-150-to-have-this-defect-1788085147

Mismatched interior on a Civic.
https://www.civicx.com/threads/mismatched-interior-trim-pieces.4566/

And what does that have to do with Tesla? Stay on topic.

If the topic is apples, then talking about oranges is just you trying to change the topic.

Standard tactic of Kool-Aid drinking Musk Fluffers.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fluffer

We were discussing quality control at Tesla, so it's very on topic. You seem to know a lot about fluffing, mom must be proud.

MrMagic says

Elon Musk's growing empire is fueled by $4.9 billion in government subsidies.

And he's built those companies with the help of billions in government subsidies.

Have you done any reading about the tax breaks and subsidies that the oil companies receive? Makes what Tesla buyers get look like chump change. Tens of billions of dollars.

Musk is a lightning rod who says dumb shit occasionally.
But he's a helluva engineer and he's one of the few industry leaders actually willing to stick his neck out to try and move society to sustainable energy. Good for him, I say.
socal2 says

Many of the Musk haters are SJW Libs who are pissed that he doesn't tow the line like the rest of the Tech Biz Libs.

Lol where the hell are you getting this? Pretty much everyone who buys a Model S is someone who acknowledges that climate change is real, and they're willing to pay a premium to do something about it, in addition to feeling smug about it. That's pretty much a 'SJW lib' by definition. Musk's fans, I would venture, are definitely liberal leaning. I mean, he quit Trump's advisory council in protest of Trump bowing out of the Paris accord.

MrMagic says

The Tesla fanboys aren't going to like this...

Elon Musk's growing empire is fueled by $4.9 billion in government subsidies.

And he's built those companies with the help of billions in government subsidies.

Strategist says

What do you call a company whose innovations will make the cost of energy almost zero, clean up pollution, and put the Saudis in BK?

We got our money's worth, plus a lot more. Musk deserves another $10 billion in subsidies.

Evan F. says

Lol where the hell are you getting this? Pretty much everyone who buys a Model S is someone who acknowledges that climate change is real, and they're willing to pay a premium to do something about it, in addition to feeling smug about it.

Not all. Some are buying the Tesla because it is an awesomely fast car. And Musk is not your run of the mill unthinking Liberal like we see all over Silicon Valley.

"Elon Musk Donates Big Money to Republicans"
https://www.advocate.com/politics/2018/7/16/elon-musk-donates-big-money-republicans

Here is some of the SJW hate I am talking about:

"Elon Musk Follows Zero Women on Twitter"
https://motherboard.vice.com/en_us/article/bmv5ev/elon-musk-follows-zero-women-on-twitter

Evan F. says

Pretty much everyone who buys a Model S is someone who acknowledges that climate change is real, and they're willing to pay a premium to do something about it, in addition to feeling smug about it.

They must not be very smart along with being smug. I wonder if they have any idea how electricity is made. No, it does not just come out of the wall outlet like magic. Show's they don't know much about climate change either.

Strategist says

We got our money's worth, plus a lot more.

Exactly... you can thank the rest of the taxpayers in the country for that.

Strategist says

We got our money's worth, plus a lot more. Musk deserves another $10 billion in subsidies.

I don't think anyone 'deserves' subsidies. In the case of green/sustainable energy, I think it's been acceptable to help that industry out too level the playing field, but we're reaching an inflection point where solar cells, electric cars, and other green tech are approaching cost party with their non-green counterparts. When that day actually comes the subsidies need to go away and the market should be allowed too decide.

Same goes for oil companies etc. who receive the equivalent of government subsidies in the form of tax breaks. It's all bullshit corporate welfare. Lightly regulated markets are the best way of deciding what's best..

MrBark says

There is little BS happening at Tesla.

Evan F. says

Musk's fans, I would venture, are definitely liberal leaning.

Strategist says

What do you call a company whose innovations will make the cost of energy almost zero, clean up pollution, and put the Saudis in BK?
Answer: Tesla.

Evan F. says

Musk's fans, I would venture, are definitely liberal leaning.

Liberal doesn’t mean Left. Lots of Leftists are conservatives who don’t like Musk because he’s not. I’ll agree with your statement tho. I break from the right wing conservative crowd here on Patnet over Tesla and Musk. I think what he’s doing is great! He’s taking risks and taking tech further than our government has been able to do. Yes, he’s taken subsidies and government contracts. But he’s delivered on those contracts! We as taxpayers are getting more for our money funding companies like SpaceX than funding NASA.

Majority of the Tesla owners I know are conservatives. The know a good value when they see it. They also have solar on their homes, imagine that.

Electricity became cheap.
Water is expensive now, government always finds a way to get those savings from us.

MrBark says

Majority of the Tesla owners I know are conservatives. The know a good value when they see it. They also have solar on their homes, imagine that.

Evan F. says

Strategist says

We got our money's worth, plus a lot more. Musk deserves another $10 billion in subsidies.

I don't think anyone 'deserves' subsidies. In the case of green/sustainable energy, I think it's been acceptable to help that industry out too level the playing field, but we're reaching an inflection point where solar cells, electric cars, and other green tech are approaching cost party with their non-green counterparts. When that day actually comes the subsidies need to go away and the market should be allowed too decide.

Same goes for oil companies etc. who receive the equivalent of government subsidies in the form of tax breaks. It's all bullshit corporate welfare. Lightly regulated markets are the best way of deciding what's best..

Oil companies have been receiving subsidies for ever. What a waste.

MrMagic says

Strategist says

We got our money's worth, plus a lot more.

Exactly... you can thank the rest of the taxpayers in the country for that.

Thank you taxpayers. Thank you.

You are welcome

Strategist says

MrMagic says

Strategist says

We got our money's worth, plus a lot more.

Exactly... you can thank the rest of the taxpayers in the country for that.

Thank you taxpayers. Thank you.

I've been tooling around for the past few years in an EV that has only 80 miles of range. I have over 50,000 miles on the clock. It costs me less than $30 a month to drive ~1,000 miles. I've never been inconvenienced, in fact the opposite... I've never had to visit the dealership once -- no dealing with rentals/loaners, no constant internal combustion engine component issues/service schedule. Only maintenance I've done is a few sets of tires and replace the windshield washer fluid. And it's fast too.

I recently got an Audi S8 as a second car, I drive that for 2 or 3 days and it's $75. I'm never going back to daily driving a gas car.

MrBark says

I've been tooling around for the past few years in an EV that has only 80 miles of range. I have over 50,000 miles on the clock. It costs me less than $30 a month to drive ~1,000 miles. I've never been inconvenienced, in fact the opposite... I've never had to visit the dealership once -- no dealing with rentals/loaners, no constant internal combustion engine component issues/service schedule. Only maintenance I've done is a few sets of tires and replace the windshield washer fluid. And it's fast too.

So what.

I have an internal combustion engine (Honda) and I've driven 55,000 miles without a single service issue and still on the original tires. I get 350+ miles of range easily, Your point? And I bet it's a lot faster than your electric push toy and can certainly carry a hell of a lot more.

Plus, your $30/month number is a subsidized number. Where's the electric coming from and who paid for the infrastructure to make it, produce it and deliver it?

MrMagic says

Plus, your $30/month number is a subsidized number. Where's the electric coming from and who paid for the infrastructure to make it, produce it and deliver it?

How is his electricity is more "subsidized"
than yours? Payments for generation and delivery are all rolled into the kWh rates we pay. Only low-income people have these subsidized. I doubt any of us quailify as such.

DASKAA says

How is his electricity is more "subsidized"
than yours?

Because it was all built out to provide power to your house, long before these electric cars came along.

EV are just piggy backing on to an existing service being paid primarily by homeowners and businesses to keep the lights on.

What if special charging businesses had to be built, just like a gas station, to "fuel" EVs. Then the power had to be trucked in to stock it. What would the cost be then?

This is just another Fanboy apples and oranges comparison.

MrMagic says

DASKAA says

How is his electricity is more "subsidized"
than yours?

Because it was all built out to provide power to your house, long before these electric cars came along.

EV are just piggy backing on to an existing service being paid primarily by homeowners and businesses to keep the lights on.

So if I put in a pool which uses 2.5kW pump or add an AC (~7kW) to the house which didn't have it initially I will also be "piggy backing" and "receiving subsidies", even though I will pay my (significantly increased) electricity bill every month? Interesting.

MrMagic says

MrBark says

I've been tooling around for the past few years in an EV that has only 80 miles of range. I have over 50,000 miles on the clock. It costs me less than $30 a month to drive ~1,000 miles. I've never been inconvenienced, in fact the opposite... I've never had to visit the dealership once -- no dealing with rentals/loaners, no constant internal combustion engine component issues/service schedule. Only maintenance I've done is a few sets of tires and replace the windshield washer fluid. And it's fast too.

So what.

I have an internal combustion engine (Honda) and I've driven 55,000 miles without a single service issue and still on the original tires. I get 350+ miles of range easily, Your point? And I bet it's a lot faster than your electric push toy and can certainly carry a hell of a lot more.

Plus, your $30/month number is a subsidized number. Where's the electric coming f...

Ha, your Honda is not maintenance-free. How many oil changes have you done and how much time have you spent out of your life doing so? How much time have you spent filling up gas? Brake pads? Fluid changes? Alternators, spark plugs, coil packs, smog checks, etc, etc -- it's all time out of your day and money to keep that engine ticking like a well-oiled machine. 350-miles of range is only relevant when you can't do math to figure out you don't drive your car 350-miles per day. Do you have a gas powered cell phone or do you conveniently plug it in every night and it's good for a whole day of use tomorrow? That's my car.

Push toy lol, you haven't driven an electric car have you? They're torque monsters. My car is faster than a Volkswagen GTI to 40 and will burn out for a good 10 feet off the line without effort. It will beat a Civic to 60 and carry as much cargo as a BMW X3. It's also got all the luxury features you could ask for.

If my electricity is subsidized, so is your gas. Living on the beach, I don't run AC and I have solar. Why the hell would power have to be trucked in? We have an existing infrastructure, it's shipped directly to my house from the sun, right out of thin air. Fanboy, lol yeah right. I'm a car guy through and through.

MrBark says

I've been tooling around for the past few years in an EV that has only 80 miles of range. I have over 50,000 miles on the clock. It costs me less than $30 a month to drive ~1,000 miles. I've never been inconvenienced, in fact the opposite... I've never had to visit the dealership once -- no dealing with rentals/loaners, no constant internal combustion engine component issues/service schedule. Only maintenance I've done is a few sets of tires and replace the windshield washer fluid. And it's fast too.

I recently got an Audi S8 as a second car, I drive that for 2 or 3 days and it's $75. I'm never going back to daily driving a gas car.

Don't you care for the oil companies? The Saudis? After all they they done for you all these years, you are gonna dump them? You are so ungrateful.

DASKAA says

So if I put in a pool which uses 2.5kW pump or add an AC (~7kW) to the house which didn't have it initially I will also be "piggy backing"

Does you house already have power lines running to it, an electric meter and a circuit breaker panel? Or will you be installing that all new to power those items?

MrMagic says

And I bet it's a lot faster than your electric push toy and can certainly carry a hell of a lot more.

I doubt it. Electric cars have instant torque.

MrMagic says

Plus, your $30/month number is a subsidized number.

Thank you for your contribution. It's appreciated.

MrMagic says

Where's the electric coming from and who paid for the infrastructure to make it, produce it and deliver it?

28% came from coal and falling. We all paid for the infrastructure. Utilities love electric cars, as it's a new source of revenues for them, especially since most charging is done at night when there is no demand for electricity.

DASKAA says

MrMagic says

Plus, your $30/month number is a subsidized number. Where's the electric coming from and who paid for the infrastructure to make it, produce it and deliver it?

How is his electricity is more "subsidized"
than yours? Payments for generation and delivery are all rolled into the kWh rates we pay. Only low-income people have these subsidized. I doubt any of us quailify as such.

Utilities provide cheap electricity at night when their plants are idle. Utilities love it.