patrick.net

P N Dr Lo R says

But not at the admonition of any doctrine found in the New Testament scripture as there is in Islam, but from sinful men. They'll reap their punishment in the Judgment.

True, but Old Testament is very bloodthirsty, and furthermore admission that Church was wrong does not help anyone who was tortured and killed by religious zealots (nothing will, of course).

One can question the value of ideology, which even if misinterpreted, has brought misery and death. History kind of puts a negative connotation on ORGANIZED religion.

Founding Fathers were all Christian men. Not atheistic fags who hate anything that reminds them of being wrong.

Benjamin Franklin about heretics:

“I think all the heretics I have known have been virtuous men. They have the virtue of fortitude, or they would not venture to own their heresy; and they cannot afford to be deficient in any of the other virtues, as they would give advantage to their many enemies; and they have not, like orthodox sinners, such a number of friends to excuse or justify them.”

About Jefferson:

during his lifetime, a hundred or so pamphlets and newspapers accused Jefferson of being an atheist, infidel and/or heretic. Numerous sermons declared that if elected, Jefferson would ruin religion, overthrow Christianity, and ban the Bible from the United States. Conservative Christians considered him thus throughout his life. Long after his presidential tenure, in 1830, the Philadelphia public library refused to include books about Jefferson on its shelves because he was considered an infidel and heretic.

Founders were very open-minded men.

Aphroman says

FortWayne says

Founding Fathers were all Christian men. Not atheistic fags who hate anything that reminds them of being wrong.

History disagrees with you

Most were Calvinists, however they all agreed that our government need be free of religion, because religious folk ruin everything they touch.

If you like Sunday school fables designed to control the simps, have at it. But keep your religion out of our government. There’s no place for Allah in the government

Our government and our money based on Christian faith, even our dollars say that. So no, it is you who is wrong, history not your thing boy. Founding fathers were god fearing men, not crazy socialist left wingers.

FortWayne says

money based on Christian faith, even our dollars say that...Founding fathers....

The current money does not mention Jesus, nor Christianity.

During the Eisenhower administration, all US currency began to say, "In God We Trust," and the Pledge of Allegiance (originally written by a socialist) was changed to insert "under God." That created a problem for Jehovah's Witnesses, who are Christian and are not allowed to take the lord's name in vain per the 2nd Commandment. SCOTUS ruled they can't be required to say it. Eisenhower's motivation was to rally the public in the cold war against the USSR, which was officially atheist.

The founders had considered and specifically rejected the motto "in God we trust." They rejected it especially for the currency. They chose instead the Latin phrase, "annuit coeptis." That phrase has precisely 13 letters, representing the 13 colonies, and it conveys the sort of agnostic ambiguity they favored. The founders included Deists, Christians, Jews, and others. They built a republic based on compromise. They respected compromise, unlike some politicians today. They preferred the ambiguity of "annuit coeptis."

Barry Goldwater warned against the growing influence of religious "conservatives" in the Republican party, partly because he said they can't compromise effectively. That has become increasingly true since gerrymandering enabled representatives to choose their voters, and since earmarks reduced the ability of party leadership to herd Senators and Representatives. The result is people shouting at each other about a priori beliefs rather than reasoning together based on evidence.

Enjoy

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Faiths_of_the_Founding_Fathers

First congress started with prayer as suggested by Benjamin Franklin

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chaplain_of_the_United_States_House_of_Representatives

TwoScoopsOfSpaceForce says

Liberal Churches Collapsing

Pew Research Center has reported for years on the tendency of "more demanding faiths" to gain adherents while the liberal denominations lose membership. It says something about religion and human nature. The fastest growing denominations are Islam and Romnesia's Moronic cult. When the Pope visited Africa, his bishops warned him not to sound too forgiving or kind, or Africans would convert to Islam. For many, bigotry is actually a selling point: an opportunity to feel superior even against all evidence to the contrary.

It's like what LBJ said in the context of racism in politics:

"I'll tell you what's at the bottom of it. If you can convince the lowest white man he's better than the best colored man, he won't notice you're picking his pocket. Hell, give him somebody to look down on, and he'll empty his pockets for you."

Bigotry sells for the same reason. For example, self-loathing closet cases, and others, pay willingly to be told they are horrible sinners and yet superior to their neighbors for being believers. Nevermind the stuff about everyone being created in the unique image and likeness of God, or everyone being sinners, the closet cases atone for their own sins by persecuting their fellow sinners. Hypocrisy makes them worse but they feel superior, and they pay for that.

Islam provides the ultimate example. It tells believers they are superior and to kill the disbelievers. Once the disbelievers are dead, the survivors (believers) are obviously superior due to being still alive, thus it becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy.

curious2 says

Islam provides the ultimate example. It tells believers they are superior and to kill the disbelievers. Once the disbelievers are dead, the survivors (believers) are obviously superior due to being still alive, thus it becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy.

Interesting points all.

One other factor I would say is "Dangerous Absolutes" - people like having something to firmly believe in, without nuance.

However, I do think there is also something of the "Politicized Religion" here as well, since all TEC propaganda, esp. that aimed at young people, is "So Progressive" and that's not just LGBTQ but Israel, Gun Control, Economics, "Global South", Poverty, etc.

Episcopalian Minister aborted baby to order finish divinity school:

If the Reverend Anne Fowler had not had access to an abortion when she accidentally became pregnant after enrolling in Divinity School, she would never have been able to graduate, to serve as a parish rector, or to help the enormous number of people whose lives she has touched. Unable to pursue her calling or be the mother she wanted to be for the daughter she already had, she would have been broken.

Fowler, who is active in the pro-abortion movement and is a leader with the Religious Coalition for Reproductive Choice, said her husband left her when she was pregnant with her first child. She gave birth to a daughter, and soon felt called to pursue the Episcopal priesthood. In 1982, during her second year at the Episcopal Divinity School, Fowler said she “accidentally” became pregnant again.

She believed her partner would not be a suitable parent; their relationship ended soon after the abortion. Already solely responsible for her daughter, Anne knew she could not complete Divinity School and pursue a career as a priest if she did not have an abortion. She has never regretted her decision and is grateful that she did not have to travel far, which would have caused her additional stress and financial hardship while she cared for her young daughter.

https://www.lifenews.com/2016/03/02/episcopalian-priest-aborted-her-baby-so-she-could-finish-divinity-school/

I'm not a militant anti-abortionist by any stretch, but if you go on to read you'll find Fowler is the chaplain of Planned Parenthood, and along with another female TEC leader, "never regretted" having an abortion. Surely, even if an abortion is necessary, it's a regrettable thing (and one would think a once-married woman with a child and working on an MDiv would have the presence of mind to use contraception).

Initiative from Episcopalian Church Members:
https://patrick.net/post/1318914/2018-09-15-christian-supremacy

Going to Methodists, who just voted down the pro-LGBT "One Church Plan" in favor of the "Traditional Plan" that refuses to enshrine open practicing Homosexuals:

It's a great example of Leftists lying to themselves, in the name of Narrative, not just gaslighting:

Do we want to alienate most of our minority, non-white members, most women, most intellectuals?

https://www.patheos.com/blogs/thoughtfulpastor/2018/03/13/now-moment-umc-stop-evangelical-takeover/

Here's what actually happened - the non-white members from outside the West heartily opposed the "One Church Plan" of sanctifying LGBTQ.

The Rev. Jerry Kulah of Liberia said “the church in Africa would cease to exist” if the ban on LGBTQ clergy were lifted. He went on to say he “can’t do anything but support the Traditional Plan” because it is “the biblical plan.”

https://www1.cbn.com/cbnnews/us/2019/march/families-of-texas-church-shooting-victims-sue-gun-retailer

The Traditional Plan was overwhelmingly supported IN Africa, Asia, etc.. It was the Pro-LGBT Plan that came from a Plurality of Western representatives.


If there's literally one thing that wasn't debated, not just for the 1900+ years of Christianity, but 1000+ additional years of Judaism, it's the plain meaning against homosexuality that is repeated several times in non-ambiguous language. If you don't like it, don't call yourself Judeo-Christian. Call yourself "The Temple of Starry Lesbian Earth Mother Wisdom". Don't claim that people who refuse to let you change their religon are ramming "Right Wing Blah Blah Blah" down your throat when it's the Progressives going against the clear and repeated rule of Canon to impose LGBTQ (therefore sinning) pastors on the membership.

It's so blatant, that never in the Church, nor during the Reformation, did anybody bring up the idea that Homosexuality wasn't prohibited by the Bible and a sin.

Reading this is literally jaw dropping.

The wireframed weak wristed pastors and the not-so-uncover Lesbians were just waiting for PostModern PostColonial LGBTQ happiness to reign.

When defeated by Koreans and Africans, they complained... about White Conservatives!!!!

The deliberate blindness and commitment to the Narrative(tm) is unbelievable!!!

The UMC’s increasingly global delegation outweighs US push to shift LGBT positions, leading some progressive congregations to leave.
...
It was not the outcome many Americans, including most UMC bishops, had been praying for. In the States, a large portion of Methodists wanted to see the church accommodate LGBT ceremonies and clergy, as other mainline denominations have done in recent years. One poll through Mainstream UMC reported at least two-thirds of US delegates supported the more-inclusive “One Church Plan” instead.

But the growing global presence among the 12 million-member denomination held more sway. Methodists from outside the US, who favor more traditional positions on sexuality, made up 41 percent of the general conference’s 864 delegates. A full 30 percent were from Africa.

“This session of the [general conference] has made it clear that there has been a dramatic shift in the center of gravity in the UMC,” said Kimberly Reisman, executive director for World Methodist Evangelism, which connects 80 Wesleyan denominations in 138 countries. “It appears that we are now a much more thoroughly global, evangelical church, rather than simply a mainline, American denomination with missionaries outposts outside the US.”

https://www.christianitytoday.com/news/2019/february/united-methodist-lgbt-vote-conference-plan.html

Transgender strip teases during services will solve this problem.

Just imagine what's gonna happen in 20 years when all the Mexicans and Guatemalans vote pro-life and for traditional marriage.

"B-B-But, you were supposed to be for Liberation and Redistribution!!! How can you lovely Brown People betray your White Allies!?"

They hate fags, to them it’s sign of immorality, because it is.

HonkpilledMaster says

Just imagine what's gonna happen in 20 years when all the Mexicans and Guatemalans vote pro-life and for traditional marriage.

"B-B-But, you were supposed to be for Liberation and Redistribution!!! How can you lovely Brown People betray your White Allies!?"

Lupfer believes the likely schismatic pro-LGBT Methodists will “forge new coalitions and pursue [their] version of social holiness (???) without hindrance by American conservatives or by the African United Methodists whose beliefs it has so long abhorred,” resulting in “fascinating merger possibilities with Lutherans, Episcopalians or others.”

While the expected split may see the dividing line drawn between the wealthy American and the poorer African Methodist churches, the Africans are stalwart in their support of traditional Biblical morality, despite the threat of a loss of financial support.

“Africans are not children in need of western enlightenment when it comes to the church’s sexual ethics,” declared Dr. Jerry Kulah, Dean of Theology at the United Methodist University in Liberia, during a presentation at the UMC convention. “We do not need to hear a progressive U.S. bishop lecture us about our need to ‘grow up.’”

“The vast majority of African United Methodists will never, ever trade Jesus and the truth of the Bible for money,” affirmed Kulah, who also noted that in contrast with the UMC in the U.S., “the Church in Africa is growing in leaps and bounds because we are committed to biblical Christianity.”
https://www.lifesitenews.com/news/methodists-make-history-vote-against-allowing-homosexual-marriage-lgbt-clergy

WTF Liberation Marxist shit is "Social Holiness". Sounds like a corrupted version of good neighborliness to serve the purpose of PoMo Pap.

Dr. Kulah is Woke As Fuck. He basically told the "Insight" crowd he wanted to file for divorce, called their division bluff. Fuck 'em, all their Churches in Boston and Providence are 90% empty, their rolls a pale shadow of 2000, much less 1980 or 1970.

Henry VIII loved cutting off heads and torturing the oppositions. Maybe there's a message here. The more beheadings, the more successful the religion, as the Muslims have demonstrated. Perhaps the Episcopalians should try going back to their roots and get into beheadings again.

This whole UMC thing is surprisingly like the 2016 Election and Brexit.

The flaccid Centrists (who were really with the Radicals, compare the Neoliberal-SJW alliance) were all talking about being all reasonable, rational, moderate, and respecting the result of a referendum.

When they lost that "One Church" referendum, they had a 24 karat Chimp the Fuck Out and starting talking about "Resistance" and "Tyranny". When Progressives ram things down throats, that's the inevitable March of Progress (tm). When they lose, it's Hitler, Injustice, and the great crime of trying to say Leviticus 19:22 doesn't say what it clearly and unambiguously says. The fake Centrists are de facto for the Radicals, but provide Reasonable/Loving "Cover".
https://wesleyancovenant.org/2019/05/20/a-cautionary-tale/

It was Sexuality Colonialism of Africa.

God is really with the True Believers. The fruits of 19th Century Wesleyan Missionaries returned to save the Church from total PoMo Marxist Destruction, like Rohan saving Gondor in recognition of their land grant.

The Methodists were very clear about following Scripture, and not falling for Fads of the times. The Radicals and the Centrists have nothing but PoMo arguments about Love and open contempt for the plain words of Scripture.

And it's more evidence of the Great Demographic Shift. Reading some of these articles:

...
Furthermore, their actions seem to confirm the fears of our founding father, John Wesley. About five years before his demise, John Wesley had expressed his fears about the future of our church in regards to its continued commitment and submission to the Scripture and discipline that govern us. He said, “I am not afraid that the people called Methodist should ever cease to exist either in Europe or America [in Africa and the rest of the world]. But I am afraid, lest they should only exist as a dead sect, having the form of religion without the power. And this undoubtedly will be the case, unless they hold fast both to the doctrine, spirit and discipline with which they first set out”. When we abandon the clear teaching of Scripture in favor of some philosophies and ideologies of contemporary society, we cease to exist within God’s parameter of grace.

tovarichpeter says

The Roman Catholic Church is collapsing also and it is not generally considered “liberal”.

Actually, I'd say that the Roman Catholic Church these days is extremely liberal by comparison with that of my childhood. It's only barely hanging on to its dogma and won't really punish any member for divorce or abortion anymore.

I think one reason for its decline is in fact that it is too liberal.

HonkpilledMaster says

To whom are the RC Church losing followers? Some are just leaving and not attending any Church, but when others leave they mostly flock to conservative Churches.

Yes, exactly.

Patrick says

I think one reason for its decline is in fact that it is too liberal.

The same problem the Mainline Denominations have had - the clergy are far, far more into Post Modernism than the Laity.

Honestly, many Theology Departments - not just public or liberal arts school ones but including mainline denominational sponsored ones - are more Left wing and Post Modern in dogma than the Social Sciences departments at many places.

Remember the Professor who was fired from a Catholic University for calmly explaining the Church's policy on abortion (or was it LGBT?) in neutral tones?

Also, I've been pushing Dalrock on you. Here is a great piece by him called We are Trapped on Slut Island and Tradcons are the Gilligans - why Slut Shaming is more important, even if it means a double standard, than going after "Rakes".

https://dalrock.wordpress.com/2011/11/18/we-are-trapped-on-slut-island-and-traditional-conservatives-are-our-gilligan/

In this context, Tradcons are the older conservatives who are operating in a milleu they don't understand, along with the Cuckservatives, who wish to avoid hypocrisy at all costs, no matter what the societal harm.

So beautiful... resignations galore from Progressive Leaders in the UMC. They are surrendering as it is clear that Western Leftist Antinomians can no longer grab the wheel of the ship of this Church and steer it towards Anti-Natal, Hard Left balderdash that directly contravenes multiple scriptures.

This is the 3rd biggest denomination in the USA.

https://juicyecumenism.com/2019/06/18/prominent-liberal-leaves-umc/

More on the status of the Victory - how the Left loves Democracy and Free Speech until it doesn't do what they want:
https://juicyecumenism.com/2019/04/18/misrepresents-traditional-plan/

https://notthebee.com/article/you-do-not-have-the-authority-to-bless-sin-one-man-calvin-robinson-stands-alone-to-try-and-save-the-anglican-church

Calvin Robinson
@calvinrobinson
·
Follow
To the liberal-progressive bishops: Do not lead us astray.

You do not have the authority to bless sin.

The Church is imploding. Do not accelerate its decline with heresy.

Bishops are promoting the idea of sacramental sodomy. Repent!

Patrick says

Bishops are promoting the idea of sacramental sodomy. Repent!

What is sacramental sodomy?

I'm not sure I want to know.

Everything is self healing in time.

Bad institutions will be replaced with good ones, in time. Churches, intelligence agencies, governments, they have become bad. Well, to be honest, they've LONG been bad, but until people recognize this, the problem can't be fixed.

I'm happy to see people realizing what these institutions really are. That's all that is happening, society is waking up.

People have to see a problem before they can fix a problem. You can't fix what you can't see.

Most people live their entire lives acting on “truths” that are in fact lies. People cannot see a problem they refuse to acknowledge even exists.

PeopleUnited says

People cannot see a problem they refuse to acknowledge even exists.

I believe this is what it means when it's said "an unexamined life isn't worth living". I believe that is true.

I have no idea if all of what I believe is true, but I am absolutely certain I know more truth than most people do.

Patrick says

https://notthebee.com/article/you-do-not-have-the-authority-to-bless-sin-one-man-calvin-robinson-stands-alone-to-try-and-save-the-anglican-church

Calvin Robinson
calvinrobinson
·
Follow
To the liberal-progressive bishops: Do not lead us astray.

You do not have the authority to bless sin.

The Church is imploding. Do not accelerate its decline with heresy.

Bishops are promoting the idea of sacramental sodomy. Repent!

Later in the tweets, he mentions a gay Anglican Priest living in open sin with his partner.

ROMANS 1
26 For this reason God gave them up to dishonorable passions. For their women exchanged natural relations for those that are contrary to nature; 27and the men likewise gave up natural relations with women and were consumed with passion for one another, men committing shameless acts with men and receiving in themselves the due penalty for their error.

28 And since they did not see fit to acknowledge God, God gave them up to a debased mind to do what ought not to be done.29 They were filled with all manner of unrighteousness, evil, covetousness, malice. They are full of envy, murder, strife, deceit, maliciousness. They are gossips,30 slanderers, haters of God, insolent, haughty, boastful, inventors of evil, disobedient to parents,31 foolish, faithless, heartless, ruthless.32 Though they know God’s righteous decree that those who practice such things deserve to die, they not only do them but give approval to those who practice them.

Is this not what you see?

Patrick says

Religion is about $$$$. Lots of it. They get/have prime real estate for their churches. Tax free mind you. They will and do sell them. It's a fake culture. I generally don't mind the moral aspect of teaching followers to be good people. Problem is the leaders/pastors/popes, etc. don't lead by example. They fuck kids. Jews take your money for themselves. Muslims just kill you. There is no ethics in religion. It's fucking money laundering to the highest degree.

Everyone has assumptions. Until you see the inner workings of a church, it's a tax free business enterprise. They'll send "prayers" your way when a family member dies and hold a funeral at their church while soliciting you for fucking money and charging you for services. They give zero shits and I think most smart people know this. The church gets their cut. It's a job, it's not about being ethical. People don't go to work and make nothing.

GNL says

Patrick says

Bishops are promoting the idea of sacramental sodomy. Repent!

What is sacramental sodomy?

Marriage is considered a sacrament; it therefore follows that gay marriage is sacramental sodomy. I.e., marriage is conferring sacredness on the act of sodomy.

https://notthebee.com/article/an-alabama-megachurch-just-left-the-united-methodist-church-over-lgbt-politics-the-latest-in-a-mass-exodus-of-conservatives-from-the-umc

An Alabama megachurch just left the United Methodist Church over LGBT politics, the latest in a mass exodus of churches from the UMC

I remember a year or two ago a Lutheran church near me that put a slogan on their board that said something to the effect that "Heaven is not a gated community", implying some sort of open-borders, pro-immigration message.

My first thought was of the Pearly Gates and how stupid this statement was.

Karloff says

My first thought was of the Pearly Gates and how stupid this statement was.

Matthew 7:13–14

/

thats because they believe in woke more than god

so they are a cult or religion of woke that has no interest in maintaining the roots or foundation of the church

naturally it would decay and collapse because the new culture of the church is rotten

/

https://notthebee.com/article/55-churches-in-oklahoma-leave-united-methodist-church

Hundreds of congregations exit United Methodist Church at regional conferences

... Many other UMC congregations left the denomination over the past year "largely due to issues with the denomination's ongoing debate over its official stance on LGBT issues," Christian Post reports:

With these latest disaffiliations, 2,095 U.S. congregations have withdrawn from the UMC since 2019, representing roughly 7% of United Methodist churches in the U.S., according to the denomination's news outlet.

I wish conservatives were tougher, and realized they're dealing with demons not reasonable people.

In any case, more churches left the UMC for the conservative conference than there are total churches in the PCA.

Here's how the demonic liberals exercise power to punish the Faithful:
https://www.christianpost.com/news/nc-church-trying-to-leave-umc-is-shut-down-by-denomination.html

https://notthebee.com/article/sbc-reports-drop-of-457000-members-in-2022-the-largest-decline-in-a-century

SBC loses 457,000 members, 416 congregations in 2022, the largest decline in a century

The denomination, which has traditionally been conservative, has been embroiled with scandal as woke elements in leadership try to steer the SBC into the same theological heresy that has made much of the mainline Protestant church completely irrelevant...

Patrick says

SBC loses 457,000 members, 416 congregations in 2022, the largest decline in a century

The denomination, which has traditionally been conservative, has been embroiled with scandal as woke elements in leadership try to steer the SBC into the same theological heresy that has made much of the mainline Protestant church completely irrelevant...

The Left and Woke love to emulate the Chicoms such as playing the long game. Everything they do is planned out at least 20 years in advance.

What you are seeing at Southern Baptist Conference (SBC) leadership are Woke agent provocateurs who have been slowly planning to take down the church since George Bush Jr's presidency.

.

Patrick says

SBC loses 457,000 members, 416 congregations in 2022, the largest decline in a century

Much of this is those Churches becoming independent or joining other affiliations.

Beth Moore's stench is sending churches out of the SBC, but not Christians out of the Church.

I don't have the stats in front, but Mainlines and Liberal Churches are taking a beating, but very conservative ones are booming.