patrick.net

Patrick says

You probably don't want to risk your own job, but maybe there's a way to document it anonymously.

@Patrick, It is not specifically directed towards inflating grades of foreign students - they do not want to flunk anyone, as all students are a source of income, but offspring of rich sheiks benefit from the policy probably more than others. It is also never documented - and they do not tell that to us directly - it is an oral "suggestion" from upper administration to Dean to Chairman, who then depending on his size of cojones either ignores it or begs (since he can not order tenured profs around) us to inflate grades. The policy originates at the top, and if one wants to catch them in act, one needs to tape either Provost or President giving such orders, which will never happen - it will be some 2nd rate administrator, who will be thrown under bus faster than you can blink if anything comes out in public. I've seen this several times in related issues - at UNC Chapel Hill they created fake classes (where everyone got an A without even showing up) to improve GPA of more deserving students - and the one who took the blame was some type of associate lecturer without tenure, despite obvious fact that these courses had to be approved all the way up to University provost and everyone was in on the scam. Basically, they punished a janitor for their own schemes.

Another option that happens quite often is to take tenured faculty off teaching large service classes, which no faculty really minds but which defeats purpose of having faculty at universities. Prof can teach a boutique class of 3 students which is much less work than teaching 300 in a service class, and administration uses a non-tenured lecturer who passes everyone in his service class because his job depends on following orders from above.

I do not know that this can be fixed without involvement of State legislatures, who, sadly, are clueless about this even in our Great State where legislature actually shows some intelligence in other issues.

posted for a reader:

you know, a lot of the commenters did not seem to understand why the "visitors" were illegal

some seem to think that "because" they received a legal visa, this means they are not "illegals"

they are "illegals" precisely because they got these visas knowing they were a scam under which they did NOT need to go to school or do any of the other practices that students qua students do, and were just a cover to enter the US illegally

Thus, they obtained the visas under fraudulent pretences, and visas obtained under fraudulent pretenses render those who have obtained them "illegal aliens"

Now, if ICE had set up a real university, and our visitors actually bought textbooks and attended classes and could get degrees, then and ONLY THEN would the "student visas" actually be real student visas

THERE IS NO ENTRAPMENT HERE -- THE CRIMINALS COMMITTED THE CRIME THEY SOUGHT TO COMMIT, AND THEY GOT CAUGHT. TOUGH SHIT!!!

Patrick says

posted for a reader:

you know, a lot of the commenters did not seem to understand why the "visitors" were illegal

some seem to think that "because" they received a legal visa, this means they are not "illegals"

they are "illegals" precisely because they got these visas knowing they were a scam under which they did NOT need to go to school or do any of the other practices that students qua students do, and were just a cover to enter the US illegally

Thus, they obtained the visas under fraudulent pretences, and visas obtained under fraudulent pretenses render those who have obtained them "illegal aliens"

Now, if ICE had set up a real university, and our visitors actually bought textbooks and attended classes and could get degrees, then and ONLY THEN would the "student visas" actually be real student visas

THERE IS NO ENTRAPMENT HERE -- THE CRIMINALS COMMITTED THE CRIME THEY SOUGHT TO COMMIT, AND THEY GOT CAUGHT. TOUGH SHIT!!!

I would like to know if it is by a lawyer or some random douche.

www.youtube.com/embed/ZqLJ3RJ0bwM

Here is a discussion with a lawyer its 9-months old though.

So you all want to believe your own prejudices than know facts. I would like to answer that guy directly. Where did you get the comment from @Patrick. From same article?

indc says

How are they illegal immigrants if they come to USA on valid visas? Just because ICE wanted to en-trap them with fake university. They should drag ICE through court for entrapment.

80% were just afraid of Law enforcement and went home. They take loans to study abroad for better future and come across this university and apply for it. Come to USA on legal document and then ICE says you are here illegally and they are scared and go home nothing to show for all the money they spent.

How is this right?

You're supposed to have a spot at a university or employer if you do an internship (sometimes au pair etc. works as well) related to your studies before you head over, that's what the student visa is for. If you don't have a spot or knowingly book a fake university, you're an illegal.

indc says

So you all want to believe your own prejudices than know facts. I would like to answer that guy directly. Where did you get the comment from Patrick. From same article?

@indc The comment was from a guy that reads, but does not like to comment. You could answer here.

Patrick says

Several celebrities and Democratic politicians have decried the situation, including Sen. Elizabeth Warren and Rep. Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez. The New York congresswoman claimed ICE should be abolished, a proposal she has suggested before.

It is pretty fucking stupid if you think about it.

It's almost as if Trump is in charge of ICE.

https://www.zerohedge.com/political/leftists-lambaste-ices-fake-university-obama-era-scheme

Students’ attorneys claim their clients were “trapped” or “preyed upon” by the government. They noted the website on which the Department of Homeland Security (DHS) stated that Farmington was legitimate and an accredited educational institution. But federal officials say the students should have known better since there were not even any physical classes to attend. Assistant U.S. Attorney Brandon Helms emphasized this in a sentencing memo for one of the eight recruiters arrested during the operation. In it, he said:

“Their true intent could not be clearer. While ‘enrolled’ at the University, one hundred percent of the foreign citizen students never spent a single second in a classroom. If it were truly about obtaining an education, the University would not have been able to attract anyone, because it had no teachers, classes, or educational services.”

Even better, lol:

First, let’s start off with the fact that this was not a Trump administration program. Yes, you read that right.

The fake university “scheme” began during Barack Obama’s reign, but we all know the president will be the one criticized for it. One need only remember the detention facilities (set up before Trump) being compared to concentration camps and holding babies in cages to know how this one is going to turn out.

Patrick says

The fake university “scheme” began during Barack Obama’s reign

Reflects incredibly badly on ICE either way.

Has to be one of the biggest wastes of government dollars and manpower I've ever heard of.

marcus says

They were already here.

marcus says

Reflects incredibly badly on ICE either way.

Wait, something Obama did was bad?

response from the non-posting reader:

I'd like to respond to Dianna E Anderson (the "incisive" quote marcus inset into his posting)

No, Dianna, you don't have it straight. Let me set you straight.

ICE knows that there are persons outside our borders who would like to obtain access to the country under pretensions of VALIDLY QUALIFYING FOR and thus being granted, legal visas. ICE decided to set up a trap and see if there were any takers. Please note, ICE did NOT contact any of these people on its own. They did not send them letters and say "hey, we want to help you commit a crime, are you interested?" These people saw the ad for the 'school' and decided ENTIRELY ON THEIR OWN to contact the 'school'. The 'school' did not have any classes, did not have a campus, did not have any faculty -- in fact the students were not actually required to be students at all -- they MERELY PAID A FEE and received an apparently legal visa that anyone who was actually a student would know was odd or "weird". In other words, they merely wished to come into, or to remain (in cases where already present as legitimate students whose school closed etc). In other words, THEY DESIRED TO DO AND BELIEVED THEY WERE SUCCESSFULLY DOING, an illegal criminal act.

They key aspect of true entrapment is that, while police may set up undercover officers parading as drug dealers, or hitmen, etc, unless the police go directly to otherwise disinclined persons and say "let me sell you this ounce of blow cheap on credit" or "let me get rid of your wife who is fucking you under with this expensive divorce". Rather, it is the VOLUNTARY COMING FORWARD AND SOLICITING HELP TO IMPLEMENT THE DESIRED CRIME BY THE 'VICTIMS', without anything other than the mere passive existence of the undercover cops in their role as a certain type of criminal, that is the difference from true entrapment.

Possibly some think that if the Border Patrol put up a sign on the US side of the border that said, in Spanish and under floodlights, "we promise not to patrol the border tonight between Tecate and Jacumba", and a bunch of aliens jumped the fence there, and found out the BP lied, and they got arrested, that this is entrapment.

No, it's not -- for the same reason as the U of Farmington. Police passively setting up a situation which appears to those wishing to commit crimes as a perfect opportunity to do so, even if the police pose as someone willing to help the wannabe criminals if the would-be criminals ask for their help, does not constitute entrapment.

:
I'm not buying that bullshit. The "crime" you are referring to is figuring out a way to get a visa to live in the US when their current situation sucks.

Rich Chinese have no problem buying their way in. Neither did Melania Trump. (long before she was married to Trump she used loopholes to do more or less the same type of thing).

I don't blame people trying to get a better life for themselves and their family. This is something people have done since the beginning of time.

I'm sure you're going to argue that I'm defending criminal behavior. Wrong. I just don't blame them for trying, and you don't know that they weren't for the most part wanting to become good hard working American citizens.

Patrick says

They key aspect of true entrapment is that, while police may set up undercover officers parading as drug dealers, or hitmen, etc, unless the police go directly to otherwise disinclined persons and say "let me sell you this ounce of blow cheap on credit" or "let me get rid of your wife who is fucking you under with this expensive divorce".

Technicality nonsense. They advertised it. IT was an invitation to do something no worse than what Melania or people with a lot of money have done. You can argue that it wouldn't pass some strict legal definition of entrapment, but it passes the basic common sense definition.

marcus says

The "crime" you are referring to is figuring out a way to get a visa to live in the US when their current situation sucks.

Their crime is cutting in line ahead of many honest people who are applying legally and correctly for citizenship.

Is bank robbery OK if you don't have time to earn money legally?

Plenty of poor Americans suffer greatly because of illegal immigration, in particular American blacks who see their wages forced down because of the flood of illegals.

more from the anonymous commenter:

I thought about this some more, and I fail to see why the illegals would not also be guilty of a felony charge of "solicitation" of fake visas by submitting knowingly false information in furtherance of gaining the visa. I mean, don't the applicants have to sign off on some representation that they are going to study at a given institution? If they know this to be false, and material to the solicitation?

I believe this meets the "scienter" element in a fraud charge: https://www.merriam-webster.com/legal/scienter

https://legal-dictionary.thefreedictionary.com/scienter

marcus says

I'm not buying that bullshit.

This is symptomatic for the leftoid culture. It's one thing if you don't like the - sometimes simply necessary - bait approach but to color a clear cut fraud/crime as "bullshit" and downplay the malfeasance is the issue here at hand. Why the rush to defend non-citizens with criminal intent when your first duty is to protect your own citizens - of which many are poor due to suffering from immigration and related wage/job pressure - and uphold the rule of law? There are plenty of American who struggle and fight for a better life, why don't you help them first, maybe house a family of four or give them a grand a month to buy food, shelter, medicine and clothes? This is exactly why the white liberal left is so out of touch and will keep losing elections until they can import enough rapefugees to unseat the hated old folks who built up this country and eventually unseat themselves. This is exactly why borders and national identity/culture is so important, countries who abolish these innate self-evident principles are subject to conquest and ultimately extinction of their autochthon people and culture as those who invade - once atop - will not give you 1/1000 of the freedoms and privileges you give them. In fact they often go so far as to disown and subjugate or kill you - look no further than South Africa.

mell says

bait approach but to color a clear cut fraud/crime as "bullshit"

What I was calling bullshit was the argument that what ICE did here was not basically wasteful and stupid entrapment. This is what you want our government doing with it's immigration enforcement ?

mell says

This is exactly why borders and national identity/culture is so important

How long do you think it takes for incoming immigrants to become totally americanized ? Second generation is a profound change, after going to school here and living here in this culture, by third generation half will have the exact same kind of fears you do.

This mindless fear mongering about immigrants is as old as America is.

And mind you I'm not advocating open borders. Border security was beefed up big time since about 12 years ago. Trump has done nothing but stir up racism.

Patrick says

Their crime is cutting in line ahead of many honest people who are applying legally and correctly for citizenship.

Yes, exactly as MElania did, and as many wealthy Chinese and presumably wealthy people from other countries. AGain, not defending it.


Patrick says

Plenty of poor Americans suffer greatly because of illegal immigration, in particular American blacks who see their wages forced down because of the flood of illegals.

I don't buy this, at least not much. You talk as if our economy is a zero sum game. It's much more complicated than that, and it's EXTREMELY dependent on growth (at least our current model).

Again, not defending it. I'm very grateful for the beefed up southern border security that happened during the Obama years. And I find the Trump's disingenuous pandering to the gullible and ignorant very disturbing.

marcus says

mell says

bait approach but to color a clear cut fraud/crime as "bullshit"

What I was calling bullshit was the argument that what ICE did here was not basically wasteful and stupid entrapment. This is what you want our government doing with it's immigration enforcement ?

If it busts potentially dangerous people sure. Also it's not expensive compared to what we spend on illegal immigrants welfare and wars.

marcus says

How long do you think it takes for incoming immigrants to become totally americanized ?

Depends, anywhere between 10-25 years. Reasonable. Similar to many other first world countries. You gotta earn it and prove you're not a criminal. No cutting in line, no bullshit amnesty, everybody needs to come here legally and stand in line without cutting corners. Trump is doing the right thing, in fact he should curb immigration more. Nothing to do with racism, the laws apply to everyone equally. If you don't like it go to another country and see how long it takes you there, likely much longer if you ever get admitted.

mell says

No cutting in line, no bullshit amnesty, everybody needs to come here legally and stand in line without cutting corners.

So does that apply to Melania or the wealthy chinese families that pay 500K to cut in line ?

marcus says

mell says

No cutting in line, no bullshit amnesty, everybody needs to come here legally and stand in line without cutting corners.

So does that apply to Melania or the wealthy chinese families that pay 500K to cut in line ?

It should apply to everyone. We do have laws on the books where people with a decent amount of money can expedite a green card process by founding a company, putting 500k to 1MM into it and employing people. To become a citizen it will still take them approximately 10 years. I'm not in favor of rich Chinese or wherever they're from to pay to expedite, but it's the current law so they are not illegal. I'd like these laws to be changed as well but there's always a faster line for the rich in history. At least it's codified into laws here as opposed to flat out corruption and it brings in money for the US. Melania is irrelevant here as a single example and her history goes too far back to get an exact account of the circumstances. Generally the laws should apply to everyone with as little room as possible for the rich to expedite. No exceptions.

@Patrick, the anonymous poster and all other posters defending ICE. It is funny how you decide who is legal who is illegal without knowing any facts or how the system works.

Here is how this system worked:
International students applied for Farmigton Univ. They let any tom, dick and harry to apply and gave them I-20 so that they can apply for student visa.
Student paid the fees for school. bought a flight ticket and flew to an alien country hoping for better future,
Once here the university told them that they dont have to register for any classes yet. They can work or do anything they want. They can register for any course later. This is illegal. But the students were told that this is new normal and there is no problem doing it.
These 18 to 19yr old were more than happy to make some money before starting their school.

Next come other group:
These students had some problem with their old university. They were working using their CPT something. Once their univ was de-recognised they had to find another University to be in status. These students applied for farmington univ to keep their student status. When they went to the Univ to register for classes they were told that University was not offering any classes yet and they can continue working and will be informed when classes are ready.

Now coming to your prejudices:
They are here illegally - Not, but what they did was illegal which they were pushed to do by the Univ i.e ICE
They were cutting lines - Not. There were not in any line to cut
They are rich indian kids - Not. Rich indian kids go to Univ which can be easily bribed like Harvard, IVY league and others.
They bring in 500k and become citizens - Not they want to work and save money for their school.

80% of students self deported because they did not know their rights. They were just young-adults who were afraid of the US justice system and went home spending all their parents savings just because ICE wanted make an example of some dumb kids.

mell says

They were cutting lines - Not. There were not in any line to cut

What?

They are overtly attempting fraud exactly and only to skip the legal immigration process which law-abiding applicants are obeying.

If that isn't cutting in line, what is?

Patrick says

mell says

They were cutting lines - Not. There were not in any line to cut

What?

They are overtly attempting fraud exactly and only to skip the legal immigration process which law-abiding applicants are obeying.

If that isn't cutting in line, what is?

Student visa is non-immigrant visa. So how is that any kind of 'line" cutting.

marcus says

So does that apply to Melania or the wealthy chinese families that pay 500K to cut in line ?

That's legal according to current law.
indc says

Student visa is non-immigrant visa. So how is that any kind of 'line" cutting.

It is not line-cutting, it is just plain fraud. Note that students were in US already, probably flunked out of other school.

rd6B says

indc says

Student visa is non-immigrant visa. So how is that any kind of 'line" cutting.

It is not line-cutting, it is just plain fraud. Note that students were in US already, probably flunked out of other school.

How is this fraud? Did they gain something at expense of others? What was that they gained?
Lets assume they flunked? How is that related to immigration topic. They can flunk and apply for another university, flunk again and apply to another university. As long as they are paying their fees how does it matter for topic of ICE en-traping them.

Student visa is a glorified tourist visa. One can spend longer time in US.

indc says

How is this fraud? Did they gain something at expense of others? What was that they gained?

It is my understanding that this university was known by the illegals as a paper mill generating fake diplomas. There were no instructors or classes.

indc says

Student visa is a glorified tourist visa.

No it is not, you have been misled. The conditions for staying are very much different. Tourist visa does not entail performing adequately in classes.
indc says

Lets assume they flunked? How is that related to immigration topic. They can flunk and apply for another university, flunk again and apply to another university.

No they can not. F visa rules specifically say that "While on your F-1 visa, you may only study at the academic institution through which the visa was granted".
Also, please see "Maintaining Valid F-1 Status" - The student is considered to be maintaining status if he or she is making normal progress toward completing a course of study.

Furthermore, this applies to flunking in one school and applying to another: (i) A student who is maintaining status may transfer to another Service approved school by following the notification procedure prescribed in paragraph (f)(8)(ii) of this section.

If you want to twist your brain, you may want to read this: https://www.ice.gov/sevis/schools/reg#2141 I have to deal with this because I teach quite few foreign students. None have even considered staying here illegally, and following rules is not that hard.

The fact that they do not always enforce everything written there does not mean that what people concoct to stay in US is legal.

Perhaps before worrying about situation in US people should worry about their own countries, and bring them to level where others actually want to stay in those countries.

rd6B says

Perhaps before worrying about situation in US people should worry about their own countries, and bring them to level where others actually want to stay in those countries

Someone get this guy a drink! I appreciate the info and link, but this quoted line is all that was needed. Digital high five ✋! I'd love to see just ONE person counter this.

rd6B says

Perhaps before worrying about situation in US people should worry about their own countries, and bring them to level where others actually want to stay in those countries.

Spreading the love of Jesus and Capitalism to the primitives has turned out to be a very expensive, thankless and risky job. We have been trying to keep South/Central America free from the Marxist rot for as long as I have been alive. And the Leftists and Democrats have been fighting against us the entire time.

I think it will be easier and smarter to spend more time securing our borders instead of trying to remake the world.

rd6B says

indc says

Student visa is a glorified tourist visa.

No it is not, you have been misled. The conditions for staying are very much different. Tourist visa does not entail performing adequately in classes.
indc says

Lets assume they flunked? How is that related to immigration topic. They can flunk and apply for another university, flunk again and apply to another university.

No they can not. F visa rules specifically say that "While on your F-1 visa, you may only study at the academic institution through which the visa was granted".
Also, please see "Maintaining Valid F-1 Status" - The student is considered to be maintaining status if he or she is making normal progress toward completing a course of study.

Furthermore, this applies to flunking in one school and applying to another: (i) A student who is ...

Even tourist visa has rules they need to follow. What I meant was you are not considered immigrants on those visas.

About moving between Univ I said "apply": When they apply the new Univ informs ICE and USCIS. How is what you pointed out different from what I said? So their status as student is switched to new Univ. It is not same as moving your kids between Univ.
Now doing legal and illegal things, how do the students in your univ know what is legal and illegal? I know because Univ specifically tell students what is Legal and Illegal to do during their orientation. Now if Farmington tells the student they can work or do what ever they want who is in fault here?

Your prejudice not wanting outsiders has nothing to do with Immigation policy of USA. You can fight to change the rules and make sure no international students come to USA. But the topic is legality of what and how ICE tried to en-trap dumb kids. It is nothing different from those nigerian prince fraud.

indc says

ICE tried to en-trap dumb kids. It is nothing different from those nigerian prince fraud.

How so?

One is a foreigner trying to steal money the other is a foreigner trying to steal entry to our country.

I can see the similarities.

indc says

About moving between Univ I said "apply": When they apply the new Univ informs ICE and USCIS. How is what you pointed out different from what I said? So their status as student is switched to new Univ. It is not same as moving your kids between Univ.

As far as I can tell, most of these kids were in US already, meaning that they are either switching between schools or trying to game system in some other way. Otherwise they could not be arrested and would not be given an entry visa in their home country.
indc says

Your prejudice not wanting outsiders has nothing to do with Immigation policy of USA.

(a) You have no idea what I think and you are making your assumptions about this in your head. Letting really talented foreigners stay in US is of a great benefit to US, and should be encouraged. But this has to be done properly, e.i. favor younger people, no chain immigration (one competent person brings in 100 incompetent uncles who are paid for by US Social Security, etc), favor higher educated people, health testing before admission, etc. About F-visa students, most (I'd say over 60%) stay in US of A, so even if this is a non-immigrant visa, result is as for immigrant visa. And again, if these are bright and hard-working students, I am all for them staying. However, more than half are neither bright nor hard working, and the result is with a minus sign for US taxpayer.
(b) Your lack of knowledge about US immigration system has everything to do with what you are typing here.
indc says

It is nothing different from those nigerian prince fraud.

That is a fact-free statement.

indc says

Now doing legal and illegal things, how do the students in your univ know what is legal and illegal?

Read the laws. I am supposed to know if something I do is legal or illegal as well.
Admittedly, the US immigration/visa system is royally fucked up because of complex rules, mainly put in place to have exemptions for special interests. But ultimately it is up to you to know if what you are doing is legal or illegal.

indc says

Your prejudice not wanting outsiders has nothing to do with Immigation policy of USA. You can fight to change the rules and make sure no international students come to USA. But the topic is legality of what and how ICE tried to en-trap dumb kids. It is nothing different from those nigerian prince fraud.

Are India's laws as kindly and open as the USA's? Nope.

We have rules, they must be followed.

What happened is no different than criminals trying to buy cocaine from undercover cops.

NoCoupForYou says

indc says

Your prejudice not wanting outsiders has nothing to do with Immigation policy of USA. You can fight to change the rules and make sure no international students come to USA. But the topic is legality of what and how ICE tried to en-trap dumb kids. It is nothing different from those nigerian prince fraud.

Are India's laws as kindly and open as the USA's? Nope.

We have rules, they must be followed.

What happened is no different than criminals trying to buy cocaine from undercover cops.

If they want to better the world, take care of a veteran citizen or a poor family of four, invite them to their homes, give them allowances, go to Africa and build a missionary and schools/hospitals. None of the illegals busted here need any of that help, there's plenty of opportunity left for them outside of the US. Now whether they will find a country as gracious as the US wrt immigration is another question. But this shilling for illegals while autochthon American homicides are at all time highs and the main reason for the declining avg. life expectancy is just beyond ridiculous.

Onvacation says

indc says

ICE tried to en-trap dumb kids. It is nothing different from those nigerian prince fraud.

How so?

One is a foreigner trying to steal money the other is a foreigner trying to steal entry to our country.

I can see the similarities.

I guess there is no treatment for dumbness. I explained how student visa or tourist visa doesn't give you any leg-up in regards to immigration. And you keep repeating the lie just like goebbels.
I guess its in your genes.

rd6B says

indc says

Now doing legal and illegal things, how do the students in your univ know what is legal and illegal?

Read the laws. I am supposed to know if something I do is legal or illegal as well.
Admittedly, the US immigration/visa system is royally fucked up because of complex rules, mainly put in place to have exemptions for special interests. But ultimately it is up to you to know if what you are doing is legal or illegal.

I agree to your point here. You make system complex and your own citizens will question the system. I dont deny what the students did is illegal. But that guidance from Univ is wrong which you do not want to acknowledge.
You want intelligent students here not dumb student again that is your perspective. Go fight about those rules. Here ICE made a mistake.
You cannot accept that ICE can make a mistake that is the reason you want to fight about it.

NoCoupForYou says

indc says

Your prejudice not wanting outsiders has nothing to do with Immigation policy of USA. You can fight to change the rules and make sure no international students come to USA. But the topic is legality of what and how ICE tried to en-trap dumb kids. It is nothing different from those nigerian prince fraud.

Are India's laws as kindly and open as the USA's? Nope.

We have rules, they must be followed.

What happened is no different than criminals trying to buy cocaine from undercover cops.

Why do you want to open your mouth when you dont know facts. USA had 100's of agents in India at height of cold war. There are 30 million immigrant from bangladesh and myanmar in India. Any ahole can come to India and live illegally without much problems. I am against open borders too. But that does not mean that you give Visa to dumb kids once here you take their money and kick them out.