patrick.net

richwicks says

How long did it take, and what was the cost, and what year?

You might be out of date.

Quit evading, read the lightning network paper that describes a solution that addresses your 'takes too long', type of concern among others and reply after that. It's already a working solution that you were completely unaware of because you don't know shit about shit.

Then, try to shoot that down and don't keep evading like you did several months ago when I corrected some deep deep misconceptions you have about biology. You just disappeared. I assume you will again or will just obfuscate in your reply like you did above.

As for other folks on here that don't like bitcorn. I get it. You're 1-2 decades older than rickwicks and myself and I get it. You don't want to learn new tricks and don't have to most likely. Fair enough.

Richwicks is far too young to be yelling at kids to get off of his lawn. His misinformation might persuade some younger folks to make poor decisions. Like I did about a decade ago at work when I mentioned I was considering buying some bitcorn to my fellow scientists and engineers.

Moral of the story: Don't take investment advice from scientists and engineers

richwicks says

it won't be allowed.

Bullshit. Congress criters are buying in. The ones running for office (both left and right) are behind it. Pension funds, hedge funds and banks are buying in. The loudmouth anti-bitcoin names of the past like Ray Dalio and buying in AND were doing so while spreading FUD.

There are countless companies being spun up to address this new market. Silicon Valley can't hold onto their engineers for these new job roles. One country made it a currency last year (El Salvador) and I'm going to bet at least 2 more do it this year.

Some countries are allowing spot market ETFs already (we allowed a futures ETF last year and spot will happen b/c we aren't N. Korea).

Beyond that, aside from BTC in general countries are spinning up their own block chains to trade with each other outside of the SWIFT system. If we don't embrace bitcorn we are fucked when the dollar dies. If we do all fiats will collapse into the dollar (and maybe the Yen or whatever China calls their CBDC) and the dollar will be the main fiat people trade in and out of - keeping it around for a while longer.

The "won't allow" trope is 5 year old FUD! Where the fuck have you been?!

FJB says

FJB says

@richwicks in essence what you said would be equivalent to saying TCP/IP has no real value. It just moves packets around, you can't make money off of it, it's a scam - back in the day.

Don't strawman me. You know you are engaging in a logical fallacy, but you do it anyhow.

The problem with a distributed database is that you need to have all machines on at all times, you need to have timely connections to them, and you have to have fast indexing to access them.

Even with bit-torrent, it takes 30 seconds or so before the connection(s) are made. Once it gets going, provided with enough peers, you hit saturation of bandwidth. These are minimal transactions, so it's 30 seconds just to ESTABLISH a connection, and then you're on a priority list.

Distributed databases are great for maximum bandwidth at the cost of enormous latency. For the tokens, you want minimal bandwidth and low latency.

The current patches are centralization - the EXACT OPPOSITE of what these crypto currencies were meant to do away with.

Let me explain how this works - say you're looking for a 4K block of text of a file that has this md5sum:

0af8e52a6941bf0035eb6b54f8b56449

There are 150 peers that have the main file that has this md5sum:

97751050ca4fd56a3cc437523bcd47ef

Your computer will connect to all 150 peers in parallel to find that 4K block you're looking for.

Now scale that up to 250 million instead of 150 peers. That's why it's slow. I can see this happen now. A new file is published, EVERYBODY wants to get it AT THAT MOMENT, and your computer is stuck trying to find new parts. So even though the entire file is available on the network, your computer is not able to find it. After 8 hours, sure, you have the file, and have seeded it out 20 times, but you've used 1/2 the bandwidth just checking "do YOU have this piece yet?"

It's an interesting problem. Anyhow that's the problem all cryptos (currently in my knowledge) have. You're trying to find a tiny thing, in a sea of machines. I have some ideas of how this can mitigated, but they all involve centralization.

READ!

THE!

FUCKING!

PAPER!

Or go watch a youtube video sheesh.

richwicks says

Don't strawman me. You know you are engaging in a logical fallacy, but you do it anyhow.

strawman my ass!

(he's not going to read the paper; I rest my case)

Bitcoin is not new and it is one of the most widely held financial assets in the world. Between Coinbase and E-Toro (just 2 firms) they have over 90 million clients. There are a plethora of other firms trading crypto currencies all over the world probably with hundreds of millions of other clients. There's over 19k different crypto currencies.

These clients tend to be active traders with about $50 billion in value of Bitcoin traded per day. With a capitalization rate of about $670 billion for Bitcoin, that's over 8% of the entire Bitcoin universe traded every day.

The money made by these exchanges is enormous.

The people investing in Bitcoin are generally not sophisticated investors, with most accounts being only a few hundred dollars.

It is an item for shear speculation.

FJB says

richwicks says

I don't know about all cryptos, but with Bitcoin in particular, it's unworkable as a way to pay for goods and services.

This shows me you don't know anything about ALL cryptos including bitcorn.

Are you saying crypto IS good for paying for goods and services?

FJB says

people who spout ignorant nonsense about bitcorn don't know shit about shit.

OH, you're talking about poop! If you chew the corn more thoroughly the bits won't be recognizable.

FJB says

strawman my ass!

Is that where the bitcorn comes from?

Onvacation says

Are you saying crypto IS good for paying for goods and services?

Indeed ol' chap!

Onvacation says

OH, you're talking about poop! If you chew the corn more thoroughly the bits won't be recognizable.

Then I lose the tracer effect.

FJB says

Onvacation says

Are you saying crypto IS good for paying for goods and services?

Indeed ol' chap!

So, you sell some crypto for fiat and then you can make a purchase. How is that better than just using fiat?

Why is crypto valued in fiat?

FJB says

READ!

THE!

FUCKING!

PAPER!

Or go watch a youtube video sheesh.

Oh man. There's nothing wrong with that analysis. It's not even mine.

It's just another classic Ponzi scheme promising to be a new monetary system that has never been shown the ability to actually work.

So sick of people pumping this.

Misc says

Bitcoin is not new and it is one of the most widely held financial assets in the world. Between Coinbase and E-Toro (just 2 firms) they have over 90 million clients. There are a plethora of other firms trading crypto currencies all over the world probably with hundreds of millions of other clients. There's over 19k different crypto currencies.

Bitcoin is essentially like an extreme version of a tech stock. Its somewhat tamed by wall street and big investor money nowadays.

The cycle keeps repeating itself over and over again:

Masses/Media proclaim Bitcoin dead > Big money buys in and pumps it up over time > the masses/media flood back in and hype it up > Big Money sells into the hype and dumps the big bags (blow off top) > the masses run for the hills and sell > Capitulation > cycle starts over.

Keep in mind you can long or short crypto on high leverage which just makes the run ups and downs more extreme.

BTW., Capitulation events are THE best buying opportunity.

FJB says

Bullshit. Congress criters are buying in. The ones running for office (both left and right) are behind it. Pension funds, hedge funds and banks are buying in. The loudmouth anti-bitcoin names of the past like Ray Dalio and buying in AND were doing so while spreading FUD.

There are countless companies being spun up to address this new market. Silicon Valley can't hold onto their engineers for these new job roles. One country made it a currency last year (El Salvador) and I'm going to bet at least 2 more do it this year.

Some countries are allowing spot market ETFs already (we allowed a futures ETF last year and spot will happen b/c we aren't N. Korea).

100% true. Bitcoin is unstoppable.
But it has been declared dead for over 5000 times within the last decade. You just got to understand how the game works.....buy more when the fear is everywhere and the faith has been lost. Sell when the media covers the all time highs and people who have no idea about crypto start buying it.

You can kind of see in what stage of the cycle we are in by reading Patnet.
The Bitcoin haters on this website always come out and cheer when Bitcoin is correcting hard. That's your buy signal.
The Bitcoin haters on this website are silent during all time highs when the media hypes it up. Sell signal.

If have seen it many times now :)

Onvacation says

So, you sell some crypto for fiat and then you can make a purchase. How is that better than just using fiat?

Why is crypto valued in fiat?

Well sure but it's mostly about paying taxes. The US is what, 6% of the population? People in other countries may use it more like a currency (see: El Salvador) but I doubt that happens here.

In the US is defined as a asset like gold or real estate so cyrptoCURRENCY is sort of a misnomer it should be called cyrptoASSET. The alt coins are more like a currency though and not assets. They are essentially securities.

It's better than fiat because it's deflationary vs. the dollar over its existence. In fact, the price could halve from here again it it would still be the best performing asset over the past decade hands down.

richwicks says

It's just another classic Ponzi scheme promising to be a new monetary system that has never been shown the ability to actually work.

So sick of people pumping this.

I'm sick of ignorant people making BS statements about shit they don't understand. In particular people like you who claim to have no problem about being wrong because you learn something. Reality is you just weave and dodge. I showed you the lightning network white paper which proves you're wrong about the speed and utility of bitcoin and you never addressed it.

You might say you THINK it's a ponzi and that would be okay. You'd still be wrong but that's just an opinion. OR, you could make a statement like @misc did above. I wouldn't argue with anything they said in particular about it being a highly speculative asset used primarily by unsophisticated investors.

FJB says

richwicks says

It's just another classic Ponzi scheme promising to be a new monetary system that has never been shown the ability to actually work.

So sick of people pumping this.

I'm sick of ignorant people making BS statements about shit they don't understand.

You're just pumping this thing.

It's a 10% fee currently to move from one wallet to another, if you want to do it under and hour.

My neighbor uses it to transfer money to a gambling account.

You're free to say whatever you like, but man, it's not ever going to be a fucking currency. Transaction and maintenance costs are tremendous and it can go to 50% in a week, as we just saw - some currency.

Hope you do well in your investment, but it's just another damned Tulip and I get sick of people arguing about this stupidity.

FJB says

I'm sick of ignorant people making BS statements about shit they don't understand.

In layman's terms, how do you think the open source blockchain works?

Just as a mathematician wouldn't play the lotto, except for fun, a software engineer wouldn't dabble in crypto, except maybe to unscrupulously dupe some HODLer.

It's a Ponzi scheme that requires new money for old money to cash out. Not only that, like any Ponzi scheme it requires new money just to sustain it. Somebody has to pay for the miner's electricity, hardware, rent, utilities, food, hookers and blow.

I meant "miners".

Bitcoin Mine.

OB(itcoin)J
NFL’s Odell Beckham Jr. took his $750,000 salary in bitcoin — how much did that end up costing him?
Based on Monday’s bitcoin prices, and assuming that Beckham did convert a lump sum of $750,000 into bitcoin when the deal was made in November, that salary would now be worth about $401,500, and, despite the drop in value, he would still have to pay taxes on income as provided to him at its $750,000 value.
In addition to federal income tax, Beckham would have to pay state income tax in California, where the Rams play and which has one of the highest state income-tax rates in the country. State income-tax brackets indicate the upper reaches of his income qualify for a 12.3% tax rate, which kicks in at $625,370. (His overall compensation, including a signing bonus and incentives, was reported to be worth as much as $4.25 million.)
Because it is not known whether Beckham moved the $750,000 sum all at once into bitcoin or spread it over multiple conversions, it’s difficult to pinpoint an exact dollar figure for Beckham’s losses. If the deposit was made on Nov. 12, that investment is now worth around $35,000 after federal and state taxes, according to Darren Rovell of the Action Network and formerly of ESPN and CNBC.
Go long Odell...

richwicks says

You're just pumping this thing.

Bullshit.

richwicks says

It's a 10% fee currently to move from one wallet to another, if you want to do it under and hour.

Moar bullshit. That isn't even true outside of the lightning network. Dig the whole deeper! C'mon, keep going!

richwicks says

it's not ever going to be a fucking currency.

I never said anything about currency you did.

richwicks says

Transaction and maintenance costs are tremendous and it can go to 50% in a week, as we just saw - some currency.

You're mixing alt-coins with bitcorn. Showing your ignorance. This thread is about bitcorn. Bitcorn is distinct from all other crypto coins. I betcha don't know why!

Onvacation says

In layman's terms, how do you think the open source blockchain works?

Bit too complicated to describe on patnet but you can find youtube videos that work at a layman level if you want to.

Onvacation says

Just as a mathematician wouldn't play the lotto, except for fun, a software engineer wouldn't dabble in crypto, except maybe to unscrupulously dupe some HODLer.

I'm a software engineer. Also a scientist. I'm not duping anyone, just looking for a long term profitable investment for a small portion of my fiat. I don't like sucking globohomo central banker cock. I also don't think the legacy financial system has a bright future.

Onvacation says

It's a Ponzi scheme that requires new money for old money to cash out. Not only that, like any Ponzi scheme it requires new money just to sustain it. Somebody has to pay for the miner's electricity, hardware, rent, utilities, food, hookers and blow.

You could say the same with just about any other asset. My rental houses cost me money. It's not a ponzi:

A Ponzi scheme (/ˈpɒnzi/, Italian: [ˈpontsi]) is a form of fraud that lures investors and pays profits to earlier investors with funds from more recent investors.[1] The scheme leads victims to believe that profits are coming from legitimate business activity (e.g., product sales or successful investments), and they remain unaware that other investors are the source of funds. A Ponzi scheme can maintain the illusion of a sustainable business as long as new investors contribute new funds, and as long as most of the investors do not demand full repayment and still believe in the non-existent assets they are purported to own.

This is not bitcoin. If you don't understand why it's simply because you don't understand bitcoin. That is understandable. It's commonly stated that it takes ~100hrs of study to truly understand it. Not to mention fintech, defi, the way too many other alt-coins, most of which ARE in fact scams as far as I'm concerned.

FJB says

This is not bitcoin. If you don't understand why it's simply because you don't understand bitcoin. That is understandable. It's commonly stated that it takes ~100hrs of study to truly understand it. Not to mention fintech, defi, the way too many other alt-coins, most of which ARE in fact scams as far as I'm concerned.

FJB says

I also don't think the legacy financial system has a bright future.

Agreed and True on all accounts regarding anything crypto. FJB
The problem with the haters here they grabbed the easy way out and decided w/o any 'real working knowledge of crypto" because that takes effort, decided they
don't like crypto no matter what. So now all that toxic pride is in print and none have the balls or humility to look into the facts and recant their obvious ignorance.

The advice I have for them is to get a clue or be ready to eat the biggest shit sandwich they have ever seen ;)

Cash says

The advice I have for them is to get a clue or be ready to eat the biggest shit sandwich they have ever seen ;)

Where did I get it wrong?

Bitcoin has no assets. All incoming money is consumed by the miners. The only way to get money out is finding a bigger fool.

Can any of you crypto pushers point out the errors in my statement above?

Not expecting any cogent answers.

Guys, dont engage with Richwicks and onvacation.

You will never get anywhere with them. R. believes that 911 was an inside job and that the US governments kills thousands of americans by purpose. When I asked him how come nobody ever involved spoke out about this? To pull such an inside job you need massive amounts of manpower. He said, the people who planted the explosives in the towers didnt know what they were doing, they were just following orders.
Do you think you can possibly have a normal conversation with a guy that makes those statements?

And OV, he invests thousands of dollars in collecting silver coins and matchbox cars. Do you honestly think he would understand blockchain and crypto?

Dont waste your time with them.....buy the dip and hodl :)

Another BIG reason the haters come out when Bitcoin swoons is the Vortex effect.

Bitcoin becomes uneconomic to the miners at a certain price thresh hold. It costs more in electricity than they receive mining Bitcoin. Bitcoin miners are not altruistic and do not operate as charities. When they start to lose money, they will shut down. Different miners have a different cost basis.

I guess someone with the stats has said that with the latest downturn about 23% of the Bitcoin mining operations are unprofitable. Unlike gold and silver, when those mines shut down, the metal they have mined is still in existence. Bitcoin as a whole could simply go out of existence.

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2022-01-25/bitcoin-s-price-tumble-tests-resilience-of-crypto-miners?srnd=premium&source=patrick.net

This is the absolute truth about crypto haters on Patnet.com.

Cash says

The problem with the haters here they grabbed the easy way out and decided w/o any 'real working knowledge of crypto" because that takes effort, decided they
don't like crypto no matter what. So now all that toxic pride is in print and none have the balls or humility to look into the facts and recant their obvious ignorance.

The advice I have for them is to get a clue or be ready to eat the biggest shit sandwich they have ever seen ;)

They totally remind me of the liberals that have no critical thinking ability no matter how much you spoon feed them the facts they will never get it... Even while they
are dining on the big fat shit sandwich being shoved down their throats. Bon appetit shit wolfs ;)

Why coinbase charges so much for transactions 2-3%
Are these coat same at other trading places

Onvacation says

Not expecting any cogent answers.

And not getting any.

Why coinbase charges so much for transactions 2-3%
Are these coat same at other trading places

richwicks says

How long did it take, and what was the cost, and what year?

that is a very specific question and it would be good for @FJB to answer it. We would see how long does a REAL transaction takes place

I am neither for or against Bitcoin. My take is that it is probably better to trust a number in a Russian hacker's computer aka Bitcoin than a number in Federal reserve computer aka USD

I regret not hanging onto my matchbook cars, I had a few since the early 60s.
I thought they were just toys.
My favorite was a Land Rover, I think they’re cool, I see one once in awhile.

KgK one says

Why coinbase charges so much for transactions 2-3%
Are these coat same at other trading places

I think the early crypto exchanges charged really high fees because they were the only game in town and could do it. Then competition came and the fees came down a lot. I noticed both coinbase and gemini have introduced new "platforms" that have greatly reduced fees. I think the 2 separate platforms are just a way to keep the ignorant paying the high fees, while also capturing the business of those who know about the lower fees via a slightly different url for the new platform.

See coinbase pro and gemini has a pro version or something too - thats where the low fees are found.

Bitcoin says

Guys, dont engage with Richwicks and onvacation.

I like onvacation and think his matchbox car is a super cool investment. I don't dislike Richwicks.

Onvacation says

Where did I get it wrong?

Bitcoin has no assets. All incoming money is consumed by the miners. The only way to get money out is finding a bigger fool.

Can any of you crypto pushers point out the errors in my statement above?

Not expecting any cogent answers

Bitcoin has UTILITY; much more so than the legacy financial system that's (a small part) of where it's value comes from. You just need to study up on it. If you hate it that's okay, if I were 75 or older I'd probably hate it too.

Misc says

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2022-01-25/bitcoin-s-price-tumble-tests-resilience-of-crypto-miners?srnd=premium&source=patrick.net

So this is the sort of article that pisses me off / cost me a lot of money if I hadn't fallen for this sort of FUD in the past. Read to the end though and it'll say no big deal basically. Articles have been softening over the past 1.5 years because the owners have started taking positions.

The reason it's a bullshit article is that bitcorn adapts. Yes, it's smart. When the hash rate goes down the mining difficulty decreases. That's what they left out. We saw the hash rate get cut in half last year when the miners were kicked out of China. No fucking big deal.