patrick.net

ohomen171 says

Over the ten years working on the book, I came to admire, respect, and even love the men and women who work at this intelligence agency. They do not have big budgets like the US, Russia, China, etc. This agency is still "flat out" the best intelligence agency on planet earth!!!

Ask your Mossad agent about the attack on the USS Liberty.

Nobody that is respectable, works in an intelligence agency - without exception. They are the scum of the earth, they are the mafia for governments, nothing more.

Jeffrey Epstein most likely worked for Mossad with his connections to Les Wexner, and Robert Maxwell - a known Mossad agent, and suspected triple agent of the CIA and KGB. Epstein, whose handler was Ghislaine Maxwell, ran a child rape ring to blackmail politicians and people of influence. A child rape ring. That's who you are gushing over as heroes. People who ran a child rape ring.

Please spare us of your vomit over this human shit. You absolutely disgust me. Collaborator.

> richwicks
But tell us how you really feel.
I never saw you expressing same emotions over, say, Russian agencies as you do here, or as you do towards US agencies. Curious: did I just not see it, or is it primarily a US/Israel thing for you?

I think it’s a spy thing for him. He considers spying immoral and problematic and extrajudicial actions wrong. It’s hard to say that he’s wrong for feeling that way when our own intelligence agencies have been trying so hard to subvert democracy in the USA.

Shaman says

It’s hard to say that he’s wrong for feeling that way when our own intelligence agencies have been trying so hard to subvert democracy in the USA.

If our 2020 elections would have been in Iran, Russia, Poland, or nearly anywhere else, they would have been declared "biased", "fraudulent" and so on by international observers, including ones from US of A

I'm very glad Ayatollah Iran doesn't have nukes.

Ben Rhodes and Brennan can't wait for them to have them.

BTW, this was a big fish politically, not just a science guy. Obama must be crying right now over his lost lover.

Iran: paving the way for full (albeit short lived) employment for nuclear scientists.

mostly reader says

I never saw you expressing same emotions over, say, Russian agencies as you do here, or as you do towards US agencies. Curious: did I just not see it, or is it primarily a US/Israel thing for you?

How long of an explanation do you want?

I know the West best, because it directly affects me.

When's the last time Russia ACTUALLY had an effect on the United States? The bullshit lie over "Russian Collusion" that never happened?

Ceffer says

Iran: paving the way for full (albeit short lived) employment for nuclear scientists.

Oh poppycock. I can build a nuclear bomb if I wanted to. The difficulty is in doing purification of isotopes. We did it the stupid way through gas diffusion, it's done by electrolysis today. Any decently competent high school science student could build a nuclear bomb today.

Should Iran want to have a nuclear bomb, they'll get one guaranteed. They could just get one from their friend Russia. This doesn't allow them to actually USE a bomb of course, because it's mutually assured destruction. However, if they are destroyed, they can retaliate.

We wouldn't even have a problem with that country, if our CIA fucks didn't overthrow their democracy in 1953 with Operation Ajax, then setup a brutal repressive dictatorship with the traitor Mohammad Reza Pahlavi who was overthrown in 1979. Will our stupid fucking moron "intelligence" agencies ever learn their lesson from the past? Fuck no. Ever since he was (justifiably overthrown) the US has been claiming that Iran was "just about to get a nuclear bomb".

https://www.upi.com/Archives/1984/04/24/Ayatollah-bomb-in-production-for-Iran/4490451630800/

That was 1984. I was 13 then.

BTW - WRT a nuclear bomb, did you know Fat Man, was a plutonium bomb? Trinity was also plutonium. Little Boy was uranium. The first nuclear detonation was done with an entirely artificial element. Plutonium is only created, it doesn't exist in nature.

richwicks says

This doesn't allow them to actually USE a bomb of course, because it's mutually assured destruction. However, if they are destroyed, they can retaliate.

Umm, no: the only country we have MAD with is Russia. Nobody else can retaliate in any meaningful way, not even fucking Chy-Na, because most of their rockets are intermediate-range. So even if Iran makes couple or dozen nukes they will be as far from MAD with the USA as if they had none at all.

Shaman says

I think it’s a spy thing for him. He considers spying immoral

No, I consider running a child rape ring immoral. I consider blowing up the King David Hotel immoral. I consider the Lavan Affair immoral. I consider the attack on the USS Liberty immoral, and the coverup of what actually happened immoral.

A great deal of propaganda exists to protect these, immoral, garbage institutions. It's why you might have once thought Iraq had a weapons of mass destruction program, or why you may have thought Qaddafi was "about to cause a humanitarian crisis". It's why you might believe "Assad is gassing his own people". They are just blatantly dishonest.

You can lead by example, which we once did or you can rule by subterfuge - that's how it's done now.

Our intelligence agencies setup false flags too, all the time. Remeber this one?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1993_World_Trade_Center_bombing#FBI_involvement

That was a false flag attack, and you know how we know this with 100% certainty?

https://www.nytimes.com/1993/10/28/nyregion/tapes-depict-proposal-to-thwart-bomb-used-in-trade-center-blast.html

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emad_Salem

Emad A. Salem recorded his work with the FIB to protect himself. Good thing he did, otherwise, he'd be dying in prison somewhere. That's your FUCKING intelligence agencies. The only reason people have ANY respect for these worms, is they have great PR OR you're talking to a genuine sociopath that knows precisely what they are like.

richwicks says

mostly reader says

I never saw you expressing same emotions over, say, Russian agencies as you do here, or as you do towards US agencies. Curious: did I just not see it, or is it primarily a US/Israel thing for you?

How long of an explanation do you want?

I know the West best, because it directly affects me.

When's the last time Russia ACTUALLY had an effect on the United States? The bullshit lie over "Russian Collusion" that never happened?

First it was about moral aspect ("child rape", "vomit", "human shit"), which is why I brought up Russia as an example of a country with long traditions in spying and killings without borders, which was the topic. However, Russia apparently gets a pass and it now became about what affects you.

I'm not buying it because Israel is not your backyard either, and it doesn't affect you either (unless you subscribe to batshit-crazy, way batshit-crazier than "Russian Collusion"). Yet you seem to have strong feelings towards Israel, unlike towards Russia.

So strong that you'd rather have Iran move on with their nuclear program. Your comment implies as much.

mostly reader says

However, Russia apparently gets a pass and it now became about what affects you.

Yeah, Duh. Obviously. I'm supposed to worry about another country's scumbag intelligence agencies? Why? I can't do anything about it, and it doesn't affect me. That's a problem for Russian citizens.

mostly reader says

I'm not buying it because Israel is not your backyard either, and it doesn't affect you either

Oh but it does. Remember the Niger yellowcake documents? That was a forgery was created by Israel. You know PART of the reason the US is bombing Syria? Israel wants the Golan Heights - but also the oil there, the US wants that. AIPAC practically dictates our foreign policy, and has for 3 decades.

mostly reader says

Yet you seem to have strong feelings towards Israel, unlike towards Russia.

OK, when was the last time the Russia got us involved with some stupid fucking war? What? MAYBE Afghanistan? That was the USSR. We went to war in Syria, partially, in Israel's behalf.

mostly reader says

So strong that you'd rather have Iran move on with their nuclear program. Your comment implies as much.

As I said, I can PERSONALLY build a nuclear weapon. I'd use U238 even though it's less stable but it's easy to refine. Iran is in compliance with the NNPT and is regularly inspected by the IAEA. Israel isn't a signatory to the NNPT, and they don't get their Dimona facilities inspected by the IAEA. Guess you must not be aware of who Mordechai Vanunu was.

I can go on and on at length about this stuff. Will it do any good? No. Somehow "Russia is a problem" has been planted in your mind. What the US ought to do is ally themselves with Russia - let Europe collapse for all we care get Canada to join and if they won't F them, go get S. America to join up. Clean up the corruption, ensure everybody makes a lot of money, and isolate India and China. That's IF our government actually gave a fuck about development. They're just pigs as eating as a trough. They don't want to upset the order.

The real, and main reason, the US is at conflict with Russia is because the US is competing against Russia to supply energy to Europe. That's the main reason. They don't want competition - and for that, we may risk another goddamn fun and wonderful cold war.

richwicks says

Yeah, Duh. Obviously. I'm supposed to worry about another country's scumbag intelligence agencies? Why? I can't do anything about it, and it doesn't affect me. That's a problem for Russian citizens.

It's a problem for every country in which Russia executes whoever it decides to execute, including on US soil (remember Lesin?)
So, it's does affect you.

richwicks says

Oh but it does. Remember the Niger yellowcake documents? That was a forgery was created by Israel. You know PART of the reason the US is bombing Syria? Israel wants the Golan Heights - but also the oil there, the US wants that. AIPAC practically dictates our foreign policy, and has for 3 decades.

This. This, right here. Whoever told you that, find them, and beat them with a stick until they cry.
Every single source that I saw making this claim boils down to the same pattern: "It was in Israel's interest to drag US into the war which is why it was Israel". But whatever they lack in quality of the argument they make up in passion.

Israel is a country with it's own interests in mind. It's also a strategic ally. US plays Israel just like Israel plays US, and neither party does another any extra favors. The only recent president who was perceived as "non-establishment", "anti-cabal" president of our times - Trump - is also the strongest supporter of Israel, as far as US presidents go. Whereas his pro-establishment counterparts - Harris/Biden - seem like a really bad news for the same Israel. This simple fact shouldn't sit well with your "pro-Israel globalist establishment" picture of the world.

richwicks says

Somehow "Russia is a problem" has been planted in your mind.

I made no such statement here yet. However: if there is such thought, it would be planted by Russia itself. No need to look further.

You should know that Russia is a country with a super-strong anti-US sentiment. I'm not talking "making fun of stupid Americans folksy humor" sentiment (a very popular topic over there). I'm talking anti-US propaganda which goes from the top to such degree that it's acceptable for a high-ranking politicians to publicly appeal to Putin for destruction of US.

Furthermore. Past performance is not an indicator of the future performance. Bluntly looking backwards doesn't help to predict future, you have to also observe current situation and sentiment. Putin illustrating the hypersonic missile capacity using map of Florida, and specifically addressing US, should tell you everything that you need to know about the sentiment.

Yet if you absolutely, positively insist on looking backwards, and backwards only, there's news for you there too. Do you really think that North Korea developed nuclear weapons on their own, or do you know the extent to which Russia helped them? This is not "they had no right" or "they had every right" question. This is a very concrete contradiction to your position that Russia has no effect on your life.

My point was that you give Russia pass but you don't do the same for others. So far your explanations suffers from insufficient information on one hand, and from a poorly thought-out, full of loose ends theory on the other. Building worldview on niche theories in addition to unambiguous facts may be ok if you can make it work, but building worldview on niche theories in lieu of unambiguous facts should be a non-starter.

richwicks says

Golan Heights - but also the oil there, the US wants that.

Huh? US is fucking swimming in our own fucking oil. We don't want any mysterios "Golan Heights oil" when we have so much domestic oil and gas in search of export markets.

PS. I'm no geologyst, but is it even possible to have oil in "heights"?

FuckCCP89 says

Huh? US is fucking swimming in our own fucking oil. We don't want any mysterios "Golan Heights oil"

This is Genie Energy announcing the agreement to mine the oil resources of the Golan Heights in late 2013.

https://genie.com/media/press-releases/#b2iLibScrollTo1

Here's Obama announcing to the world that "If Assad used chemical weapons, the US is going to bomb Syria"

www.youtube.com/embed/wWNJLXy9Z3Q

That was setting up the propaganda even before the agreement was finalized.

And why would the US bomb a country for a company? This is their "strategic advisory board":

https://governamerica.com/documents/genie-energy/

Recognize any names?

Michael Steinhardt (SAB Chairman)
Noted Wall Street investor and Principal Manager, Steinhardt Management LLC. Founder Steinhardt, Fine, Berkowitz & Co., and noted philanthropist.

Richard Cheney
46th Vice President of the United States. Vice President Cheney also served as President and CEO of Halliburton Company and U.S. Secretary of Defense from 1989 to 1993.

Marry Landrieu
United States Senator from Louisiana from 1996 to 2014. Senator Landrieu served as chair of the Senate Committee on Energy and Natural Resources. In her capacity as chair, she sponsored and passed the U.S.-Israel Energy Cooperation Bill. The bill fosters partnerships focused on developing resources such as natural gas and alternative fuels, on the academic, business and governmental levels.

Rupert Murdoch
Founder and Executive Chairman of News Corporation, one of the world’s largest diversified media companies. News Corporation’s holdings include Fox Entertainment, Dow Jones and Company, the New York Post, HarperCollins and significant media assets on six continents.

Bill Richardson
Governor of New Mexico from 2003 to 2011. Mr. Richardson has served asU.S. Ambassador to the United Nations (1997-1998), Energy Secretary in the Clinton administration (1998-2001), Chairman of the 2004 Democratic National Convention, and as Chairman of the Democratic Governors Association.

Jacob Rothschild, OM, GBE
Chairman of the J. Rothschild group of companies and of RIT Capital Partners plc. Chairman of Five Arrows Limited. Lord Rothschold is a noted philanthropist and Chairman of the Rothschild Foundation.

Dr. Lawrence Summers
Charles W. Eliot University Professor and President Emeritus at Harvard University. Dr. Summers served as the 71st Secretary of the Treasury under President Clinton and as Director of the National Economic Council for President Obama.

R. James Woolsey
Director of Central Intelligence from 1993 to 1995 and as Under Secretary of the Navy from 1977 to 1979. Mr. Woolsey is co-founder of the United States Energy Security Council and is Chairman of the Foundation for Defense of Democracies.

I swear to god, if it's not on teeeveee nobody will believe it. It's all on Genie's website, it's EASY to verify it. The United States federal government is just a mafia. The US isn't mining oil from Syria because WE need the oil, it's because a bunch of bastards wants to sell it to Europe and weaken Russia's economy by restricting their ability to sell energy.

richwicks says

I'd use U238 even though it's less stable but it's easy to refine.

good luck making nuke with U238

richwicks says

The US isn't mining oil from Syria because WE need the oil, it's because a bunch of bastards wants to sell it to Europe and weaken Russia's economy by restricting their ability to sell energy.

If Obama wanted to "weaken Russia by selling oil to Europe" why the fuck was he blocking pipelines which were being built to bring American and Canadian oil to the Gulf ports which would increase our oil exports? Makes no sense whatsoever.

PS. Obama was the guy who said to Medvedev "tell Vladimir (Putin) that I'm going to be more flexible wrt Russia in my 2nd term". Obama was the guy who was as against fracking as Putin himself. Obama was the guy who pretended he didn't know that Russia has been violating INF treaty since 2008. The guy who approved "Reset" right after Putin invaded Georgia. Obama has fucking invited fucking Putin to fucking Syria. Some enemy of Russua he was. With enemies like that who needs friends?

FuckCCP89 says

If Obama wanted to "weaken Russia by selling oil to Europe" why the fuck was he blocking pipelines which were being built to bring American and Canadian oil to the Gulf ports which would increase our oil exports?

Obama didn't do anything. We don't need more oil. The US is in the Middle East to control the resources. If the US controls energy resources, they dictate how the resources are sold and what currency they are sold in.

FuckCCP89 says

PS. Obama was the guy who said to Medvedev "tell Vladimir (Putin) that I'm going to be more flexible wrt Russia in my 2nd term".

It doesn't matter what Obama says. He was just a puppet. His job is to placate other world leaders and placate the population.

FuckCCP89 says

Obama has fucking invited fucking Putin to fucking Syria.

The US doesn't go to war for a SINGLE reason, that would be too wasteful. The reality is multiple groups conspire to exploit any situation. The US isn't in Syria JUST for Genie Energy. Israel wants to expand. Russia is there because Syria has their ONLY middle eastern base, so that's a bonus for the MIC if they can take that out. That's also PART of the reason the UK had a coup in Ukraine (and remember that happened under Obama) - Crimea is Russia's only warm water port. That part of the coup failed, obviously.

FuckCCP89 says

The guy who approved "Reset" right after Putin invaded Georgia.

Georgia attacked S. Ossetia. S. Ossetia requested help from Russia and got it. Within 1 DAY the conflict was ended. That's how quick that was.

Mikheil Saakashvili was the president of Georgia at the time. He's a CIA asset that was educated at Columbia University. He's the one that began that conflict by invading S. Ossetia. He lost very badly and quickly. He's now a wanted war criminal in Georgia. He is now in Ukraine having been appointed mayor. I think the plan originally was to make him president, like it was with Ahmed Chalabi of Iraq - but people in tumultuous countries tend to recognize traitors more easily than in stable nations.

Russia wanted to make S. Ossetia and Georgia part of the Russian federation, they could do it. The country is enormous though, it's got 11 time zones. They aren't interested in taking over some 2d world nation. It's cheaper to just make deals. They don't own the word's reserve currency.

You're just misinformed as to what happened. That's all. There's so much goddamned propaganda you can't avoid it unless you make a concerted effort to do it. You have to TALK to people in other countries. Very few people to. That was the main reason I went into networking development. Figured by 2002 when Bush was able to lie us into a war that people were too stupid to make use of it. Now we have censorship, now we have deplatforming. Guess I wasted my life on that career.

Dbr6 says

richwicks says

I'd use U238 even though it's less stable but it's easy to refine.

good luck making nuke with U238

Oh did I get the wrong one?

Yes, U-235 - that's what Little Boy was. I was very surprised when I found out plutonium was at Trinity.

mostly reader says

Yet if you absolutely, positively insist on looking backwards, and backwards only, there's news for you there too. Do you really think that North Korea developed nuclear weapons on their own, or do you know the extent to which Russia helped them?

Who CARES?

Israel has 200 nuclear weapons. Think they developed them on their own?

mostly reader says

My point was that you give Russia pass but you don't do the same for others. So far your explanations suffers from insufficient information on one hand, and from a poorly thought-out, full of loose ends theory on the other. Building worldview on niche theories in addition to unambiguous facts may be ok if you can make it work, but building worldview on niche theories in lieu of unambiguous facts should be a non-starter.

Russia is a nuclear super power, just as we are. We can't go to war with them.

Now how aggressive is Russia actually

The United States has bombed Pakistan, Afghanistan, Syria, Libya, Iraq, Yemen and Somalia. For what? Why? I can tell you why the US didn't bomb those, not to prevent a humanitarian crisis, not to prevent chemical weapons from being used, not to end a weapons of mass destruction program. It's power.

Have you ever seen the bases the US has across the planet?



Who is threatening whom here? It's MY nation that is out of control and run by nutcases, not Russia. We're the 4th Reich. It's our nation that is run by lunatics.

richwicks says

Who CARES?

Apparently Hawaii cares. That missile alert in 2018 scared bejesus out of them.
May be it's just Hawaii. May be if the alert was issued to California, those tough Californians would've just shaken it off like it's nothing.
Thing is - that alert was taken seriously. The "who cares" question is invalidated right there. Whereas news about missiles coming from Israel to US would've been met with laughter. That's the difference between the two.

As for the role of Russia, there was no role of Russia in that North Korean situation. It has nothing to do with it and therefore no fear of retaliation in case that alert is not fake. Win-win, only possible in a proxy war!

Proxy wars are Russia's signature move. You mentioned S. Ossetia, but offered an incomplete picture. Ask yourself: why would Saakashvili start a war with such an obvious end result? It was clear that the war would be against Russia, and it was clear that Georgians couldn't match Russian army. He was probably hoping for help from the West (which never arrived), but why start a war with such long odds in the first place? Was he completely out of his mind? Answer: because it wasn't a start of the war. For a while, S. Ossetia was under Russian zone of influence. For a while, there were attacks and provocation from S. Ossetia towards Georgia. For a while, there were local conflicts that were just a bit shy of being classified as "war". Now, here's a kicker: every Georgian with whom I spoke about it, told me the same thing: that it was common knowledge that in those local conflicts they weren't fighting Ossetians, they were fighting Russian army. Plenty of ways to tell, from equipment to the way it's organized and then to language. All that was going on for years prior to the attack on Ckhinval, and got to the point that Georgia had to take chances to put a stop to this.
To be clear: I'm not judging who's in the right and who's in the wrong there. I'm pointing out that the situation in S. Ossetia was very far from the trivialized version that you offer (Saakhashvili was bad, Ossetia asked for help, Russia was good and helped and won the war in 1 day) and that there was a Russia-led hybrid war going on for years prior to that.

Before S. Ossetia there was Transnistria War (between Moldova and Russian proxy, the self-proclaimed Dnestr Republic).

Then there was Ukraine, still is.

At least US has the decency to mark it's bases as such.

mostly reader says

richwicks says

Who CARES?

Apparently Hawaii cares. That missile alert in 2018 scared bejesus out of them.
May be it's just Hawaii. May be if the alert was issued to California, those tough Californians would've just shaken it off like it's nothing.

Oh yes, the "mistake".

If I got such a warning, I'd assume it was simply a "mistake". Not much you can do about it even if it isn't. What would I do anyhow? Shelter in place?

I find it's just mentally taxing to believe my government at this point. They have just spent 4 fucking years lying about Russian Collusion and instigating mobs against US citizens.

mostly reader says

Thing is - that alert was taken seriously. The "who cares" question is invalidated right there. Whereas news about missiles coming from Israel to US would've been met with laughter. That's the difference between the two.

https://www.voltairenet.org/article164432.html

Perhaps not.

mostly reader says

As for the role of Russia, there was no role of Russia in that North Korean situation. It has nothing to do with it and therefore no fear of retaliation in case that alert is not fake. Win-win, only possible in a proxy war!

Look, it's the US that specializes in proxy wars. The US went to Vietnam because France refused to join NATO if the US kept up their agreement with Ho Chi Minh and supported independence for Vietnam. It ended up bankrupting our nation, we left the gold standard in 1971 and were forced to move to the petro-dollar to stabilize the currency.

To add insult to injury it was Charles deGaulle that demanded gold repatriation and send warships to New York to pick it up in early August 1971 - they got their gold back. Nixon Shock was August 15, 1971. All that to expand NATO. To be certain the USSR was a legitimate threat, and they were truly expansionist. I'd even say the government was evil.

We destroyed the USSR basically by ramping up the cold war, exhausting their supplies and making the USSR fight a proxy war in Afghanistan. The Soviets were fools to take the bait, but that's central planning for ya.

mostly reader says

Proxy wars are Russia's signature move. You mentioned S. Ossetia, but offered an incomplete picture. Ask yourself: why would Saakashvili start a war with such an obvious end result? It was clear that the war would be against Russia, and it was clear that Georgians couldn't match Russian army. He was probably hoping for help from the West (which never arrived), but why start a war with such long odds in the first place? Was he completely out of his mind? Answer: because it wasn't a start of the war. For a while, S. Ossetia was under Russian zone of influence. For a while, there were attacks and provocation from S. Ossetia towards Georgia. For a while, there were local conflicts that were just a bit shy of being classified as "war". Now, here's a kicker: every Georgian with whom I spoke about it, told me the same thing: that it was common knowledge that in those local conflicts they weren't fighting Ossetians, they were fighting Russian army. Plenty of ways to tell, from equipment to the way it's organized and then to language. All that was going on for years prior to the attack on Ckhinval, and got to the point that Georgia had to take chances to put a stop to this.

Because Saakashvili was a US asset, and we ordered him to. We did this during the Athens Olympics to embarrass Putin. The US did everything they could to humiliate Russia during the Sochi games as well and the world world cup.

Here's a question if Russia wants to take over S. Ossetia and Georgia - who cares? Let it happen.

mostly reader says

To be clear: I'm not judging who's in the right and who's in the wrong there. I'm pointing out that the situation in S. Ossetia was very far from the trivialized version that you offer (Saakhashvili was bad, Ossetia asked for help, Russia was good and helped and won the war in 1 day) and that there was a Russia-led hybrid war going on for years prior to that.

The US should not concern itself with some old satellite republic on the other side of the planet. Not our fight. It's simply damaging our nation.

mostly reader says

Before S. Ossetia there was Transnistria War (between Moldova and Russian proxy, the self-proclaimed Dnestr Republic).

S. Ossetia and Georgia have been in conflict for decades. What is OUR interest in being involved?

mostly reader says

Then there was Ukraine, still is.

Remember Victoria Nuland's famous "Fuck the EU"? This came up in a discussion of who should be the next leader of Ukraine. She said this in early February of 2014. The "Maidan Revolution" (our propagandists are trying to rebrand it "The Revolution of Dignity") didn't finish until February 22, 2014.

How did she know there was going to be a "revolution"? It was a US coup.

This is because Viktor Yanukovych wouldn't join the EU. The US wanted that to place more NATO bases in Ukraine, and to cut off the Nordstream II. The EU wanted it because it was a massive deal for the ECB as Ukraine needed money. Russia had a better offer for Ukraine for money, Viktor Yanukovych took it. He acted properly and in the best interests of his nation. Probably plenty of other reasons for the coup, but those are two main ones.

Ukraine now well on it's way to becoming a failed state. I don't even pay attention to what is happening there now.

mostly reader says

At least US has the decency to mark it's bases as such.

My point is, what good are these bases?

It doesn't benefit American citizens, it actually destabilizes the world, and it's going to drive this nation into poverty.

We have a national debt that doubles every 8 years. It's 27 or so trillion now. In 8 years, 50 trillion, 8 years from that 100 trillion.

WE are the next USSR. We even have Antifa communist thugs being allowed to engage in mob rule. Defund the police! Sure - but will you reduce taxation? No.

You see, we really don't need to worry about foreign enemies. Our enemies we have to worry about, they're domestic. We just had a coup after all, and we're all in lockdown to protect us from a disease which 99.97% of the population survives.

You might not be as paranoid and suspicious as I am, but wait a year, you will be.

Do you think your government would be lying, constantly, if it was acting in good faith and in your interest? I've never known a government to tell white lies for years for the benefit of the citizens.

mostly reader says

richwicks says

Oh but it does. Remember the Niger yellowcake documents? That was a forgery was created by Israel. You know PART of the reason the US is bombing Syria? Israel wants the Golan Heights - but also the oil there, the US wants that. AIPAC practically dictates our foreign policy, and has for 3 decades.

This. This, right here. Whoever told you that, find them, and beat them with a stick until they cry.
Every single source that I saw making this claim boils down to the same pattern: "It was in Israel's interest to drag US into the war which is why it was Israel". But whatever they lack in quality of the argument they make up in passion.

Fine - what the Lavon Affair faked?
Was the USS Liberty attacked by Israel or not?
Where were Israelis that filmed the 9/11 attacks, celebrated, got the cops called on them, and they were deported without charge?
* Are the videos and photographs they took public or classified?
Was Epstein likely Mossad Intelligence? His handler appeared to be Ghislaine Maxwell, she's the daughter of a famous spy.
Was Epstein actually a financial genius, or was he simply financed by Les Wexner, and perhaps others?
Did Epstein commit suicide in prison?

Now tell me about all the shitty stuff the KGB did. But they don't exist, so really, I'd be interested in the FSB.

I know lots of crap the Stasi pulled, but they were East Germany. They were messed up.

I'm hearing rumors that Moshen Fakhrizadeh was not actually assassinated, but defected from Iran to the US. This is why Brennan is freaking out about it. This guy can rat out both him and Obama.

The Iranian news is a cover-up.

porkchopexpress says

I'm hearing rumors that Moshen Fakhrizadeh was not actually assassinated, but defected from Iran to the US. This is why Brennan is freaking out about it. This guy can rat out both him and Obama.

The Iranian news is a cover-up.

Interesting theory, but why would he defect and leave behind a nice life and any family? Because he fears the mullahs getting a nuke?

He didn't leave his family behind. They were rushed out of the country as well.

The last thing that went through his mind.


"Oh no, my Butt Lover John Brennan will never get to pound me in the ass again."

richwicks says

Have you ever seen the bases the US has across the planet?

Have you seen the unprecedented peace and prosperity the vast majority of our generation has enjoyed since Pax Americana?

After 2 disastrous World Wars in Europe and another 100 million humans killed by Communists who meddled far outside their borders creating Marxist misery around the planet, I'm not too bothered by the US keeping a lid on things........at relatively low cost to our blood and treasure.

> richwicks
It's not always obvious how your response relates to the question. Example: richwicks says

https://www.voltairenet.org/article164432.html

Perhaps not.

My point was that N.K. and Israel are completely different in terms of threat recognition from within US. To which you respond with an opinion of this Israeli professor and how he thinks that for it's own survival, Israel has no choice other than to transfer Arabs to outside the border. An opinion which is not Israeli official position and which no one takes seriously because it's not practical or even possible, knowing how Israel treats it's citizens - Jews, Arabs, and others. Your response doesn't seem to relate to my point, even remotely.

richwicks says

Because Saakashvili was a US asset, and we ordered him to. We did this during the Athens Olympics to embarrass Putin. The US did everything they could to humiliate Russia during the Sochi games as well and the world world cup.

This theory goes against everything that actually happened as a result of this action. You do realize this, don't you? Putin was NOT embarrassed as a result, and it did NOT look like US was prepared for this at all. If this was pushed by US, it was obviously a huge screw-up. Did heads roll? How many people in US got fired?
Look. I may enjoy a good conspiracy theory just like the next guy, but when you develop a worldview which is based on unprovable, at the very least it should be internally consistent.

richwicks says

Look, it's the US that specializes in proxy wars. The US went to Vietnam because France refused to join NATO if the US kept up their agreement with Ho Chi Minh and supported independence for Vietnam

"Proxy war" doesn't mean what you imply it means. In Vietnam, US had it's boots on the ground, which is something other than "proxy". Afghanistan is a better example, although: 1) US was open about it and 2) in Afghanistan US was fighting USSR who were the invaders there. Russia in Ukraine would be a much better example of a proxy war: whatever Russian military is there is arranged through contracting companies and Putin denies the involvement, despite all the evidence. Which most think is part of the reason why Russia fights tooth and nail the MH-17 situation, despite all the evidence yet again - you simply can't continue denying if you admit the presence of BUK and it's operators. So was S. Ossetia, and so was Transnistria, the proxy wars.

Ukraine, failing or prospering, wasn't my focus. Russia was, with it's attempts to influence the world through proxy wars among other things.

As for "Russian Collusion", Russia was, and still is, actively involved in social online experiments in US, just in a different capacity. Their goal is to sow discord, and there's little doubt that they were/are quite active at it. Reference to a foreign power with state-sponsored anti-US online troll factory shouldn't even be used in the same sentence as "ally".

On your questions about Mossad: I'm not having a conversation which is built on conspiracy theories if it ignores the obvious and provable.

Why do you bring up USS Liberty? It's a known fact, classified as a mistake (friendly fire), Israel was apologetic ever since, and paid around $70mil in today dollars in retributions. What now? Shit happens. This shit happened over 50 years ago.

Why do you bring up 9/11? Entire world knows how Israel reacted to it, and how Arab world reacted to it. Or do you suggest that Israel was behind the attack? I'm going to stop here, this may be good.

mostly reader says

> richwicks
It's not always obvious how your response relates to the question. Example: richwicks says

https://www.voltairenet.org/article164432.html

Perhaps not.

My point was that N.K. and Israel are completely different in terms of threat recognition from within US. To which you respond with an opinion of this Israeli professor and how he thinks that for it's own survival, Israel has no choice other than to transfer Arabs to outside the border.

That's not what I was referring to:

In his view, the continued struggle of the Palestinians will inexhorably lead to the collapse of the State of Israel. Which is why Tel-Aviv has no choice but to "transfer" the Israeli Arabs and the stateless Palestinians beyond safe borders (that is, not only outside the 1948 borders but also from the 1976 occupied territories and, ideally, from the West Bank and the Gaza Strip). In the event the Europeans opposed such a transfer, in order to survive Tel Aviv will be forced to destroy the European capitals with nuclear weapons, it being understood that the Europeans will be unable to retaliate without annihilating their Palestinian friends.

If you recall you said that the idea that Israel might fire nuclear weapons of it's "friends" is a laughable idea but North Korea might be a credible attacker. That's my counter example. This is the same country that murdered Count Bernadotte, and also have a memorial park named after him for all his work in the Red Cross and getting concentration camp victims out of concentration camps.

These are the same people that considered the Samson Option. They are prepared to commit genocide and they probably will at some point. The end game was always the complete removal of the Palestinians.

They are an interesting crazy country. Did you know perhaps all the dead sea scrolls were ALL probably faked? It's to establish that there's a "deep connection to the land" for a "land without a people" for a "people without a land". The propaganda of that place, it is astounding. You question it though, and no, you're anti-Semitic! Question ANYTHING Israel has done, ever, and you are branded that.

The Palestinians are probably the ancient Jews of the Bible. Those Mulsims were pretty forceful about conversion at one point. Of course, the Romans were too. I don't really care any more. You can't have a logical discussion about it, and morality doesn't matter. West Bank and Gaza will be Israel at some future date, probably expansion into Syria first, then I have no idea - some say they want to take over the entire Middle East over the course of centuries, I won't live to see it.

mostly reader says

As for "Russian Collusion", Russia was, and still is, actively involved in social online experiments in US, just in a different capacity. Their goal is to sow discord, and there's little doubt that they were/are quite active at it.

Why would Russia do this? They're ridiculously ineffective at it.

Here, want to destabilize this nation? OK, try to normalize pedophilia like making some "good foreign films about it", call all people "white nationalists", "racists" and other slanders if they refuse to go along with radical agendas of what are basically children, have the nation's "news" lie to them about why they went to war in EVERY case, and basically gaslight the entire population or just have the "news" just lie, about every fucking thing. For example "mostly peaceful protestors".

But, Russia isn't doing this, my own intelligence agencies are doing this. This is Operation Mockingbird, it is real, it came out in the Church Committee. What is destabilizing this nation isn't Russia - it's the CIA. Russia doesn't have to do anything other than sit back and watch this nation's intelligence agencies destroy this nation. We just had a coup - the CIA did it.

mostly reader says

On your questions about Mossad: I'm not having a conversation which is built on conspiracy theories if it ignores the obvious and provable.

I don't actually really want to talk about it but it was direct experience with GIYUS and Hasbera that made me aware of how pervasive propaganda is.

You can't get a government contract now in 1/2 the states if you criticize the Israeli government, regardless of what they do. Did you know that? I can be fired for what I'm writing right. Great to have a 1st amendment isn't it? Constitution had it's final death throws November 4th, 2020.

mostly reader says

Why do you bring up USS Liberty? It's a known fact, classified as a mistake (friendly fire), Israel was apologetic ever since, and paid around $70mil in today dollars in retributions. What now? Shit happens. This shit happened over 50 years ago.

It wasn't a mistake. It was a false flag to provide an excuse that Lyndon B. Johnson needed to go to war with Egypt. The plan was to sink the ship, kill everybody on board, and then say Egypt did it.

Same sort of crap of the Lavon Affair.

All the men of the USS Liberty wanted was a congressional hearing. They never got it. I used to listen to the odd survivor on radio shows in August. Nearly everybody I used to listen to I think is dead, or just too disheartened to do an interview. The youngest has to be 70, and they didn't have any seniority.

mostly reader says

Why do you bring up 9/11? Entire world knows how Israel reacted to it, and how Arab world reacted to it.

Yeah, our "news" media showed archival footage of a bunch of Palestinians at a wedding, and claimed it was Palestinians at the time celebrating the destruction of the world trade centers. Remember when ABC "news" showed footage of a Kentucky gun show and claimed it was Turks attacking Kurds? They have been doing this shit for decades. They used to always get away with it, because there wasn't enough people on the Internet to call it out. Now there are, so there's censorship.

Of course Israel was involved with 9/11, as were our own intelligence agencies. Do you really think that 30 minutes after it was painfully obvious planes were being used as weapons, that Flight 77 could fly into the most highly guarded airspace and hit the building that has the headquarters for the department of defense? People had to know it was hijacked - all they had to do is see the flight plath. I'm sure aircraft controllers all over the country were checking in all flights.

Meanwhile you have a bunch of illegal immigrant Israelis who have come to NYC of all places. to work as "movers". And 5 of them record themselves in front of the WTC, get arrested, and all their photographs and videos are classified as top secret, and they are quietly deported. Uraban Moving Systems (the front they worked for) then immediately packs up, and goes away.

People just aren't cynical enough.

Probably the US makes use of Israel because criticism of Israel is forbidden and can be easily dismissed as antisemitism. Israel is sacrosanct.

ISRAHELL!!! They had multiple elections to settle on a government these past 3 years with vicious infighting between Gantz and Bibi and the third parties with only a very weak compromise that's barely holding after several elections. Not a surprise if you've ever seen Jews discuss any topic from Quantum Physics to the Which Chinese Takeout to Order From... 2 Jews = 4 Opinions... but they are in perfect secretive lockstep, unified, and absolutely implacable on Der Zionische Plotten to Taken Overzee Vorld.

I have the guy on ignore, but let me say, Winston Churchill lit a cigar, did a jig, and said "We're saved!" on December 7th, 1941.

Also the Liberty was 100s of miles off course, did not receive messages (the 6th Fleet completely revamped their comms in the following months), and was a "Liberty Ship", a mass produced WW2 Cargo Vessel produced in the hundreds, of which Egypt had several, including in their Navy as converted auxillary military support vessels. Israel paid within weeks damages, and then paid out tens of millions more in the next year or so. The US Embassy Liason for Military Affairs did not know it was there, and the IDF trained for air superiority and ground support, they had next to no naval training. The NSA actually has the transcript, you can literally read Israeli pilots talking about it's lack of markings and debating which Egyptian ship it was, I've posted them here before but a 5 sec search will find them.

NoCoupForYou says

DA JOOS!!! They can't settle on a government these past 3 years with vicious infighting between Gantz and Bibi and the third parties, but they are lockstep, secretive, and absolutely implacable on Der Zionische Plotten to Taken Overzee Vorld.

Like I said "You can't have a logical discussion about it". If you attempt it, INVARIABLY, somebody comes up and creates a strawman attack. Every fucking time.

Did I say anything about "Der Zionische Plotten to Taken Overzee Vorld"? I'm pointing out that Israel's plan it to expel the Palestinians in time and expand. This will probably take another 50 years. It has to be done slowly.

But again, what's the point of trying to discuss it? You spend all your time explaining strawmen, with a true bigot, who knows they are misquoting you, and don't want to discuss the actual situation but more importantly - they don't want YOU discussing the actual situation. People aren't allowed, at all, ever, to talk about the Israeli/Palestinian conflict.

It is obvious that it's headed for a one state solution with the Palestinians gone. That's the only reason Israel can't declare their borders and never will. Palestinians can't be integrated at this point into a one state solution, not enough land is left to make a "Palestinian" state. It doesn't matter, it's inevitable.

NoCoupForYou says

Also the Liberty was 100s of miles off course, did not receive messages (the 6th Fleet completely revamped their comms in the following months), and was a "Liberty Ship", a mass produced WW2 Cargo Vessel produced in the hundreds

"100's of miles off course"? It was north of the Sinai in the Mediterranean.

https://goo.gl/maps/WCunb88qTtBpmpN88

You tell me where it was supposed to be, and where it was. Pay attention to scale there. Was it supposed to be West?

This is the same nonsense I'd get in the 1990s when somebody would tell me that the survivors already got their Congressional hearing although they couldn't name a date, when it happened or any details - because it didn't.

People aren't allowed to discuss this.

Just about everything about the USS Liberty was classified after the incident. The only information you get about it is disinformation and some bits from the survivors who are shouted down and denounced as anti-Semitic simply because they had questions that were never answered.

Don't worry, the last one will be dead in 10 years.

But good one "100's of miles off course". Good one. Haven't heard that one before.

richwicks says

That's not what I was referring to

So what? Again: it's a professor who doesn't represent Israel just like pro-Palestinian Israeli academics, or "Minds of Piece", or the Israelis who tried to break the sea blockade, don't represent Israel. You are cherry-picking data points to fit the worldview.

richwicks says

Why would Russia do this? They're ridiculously ineffective at it.

I'm not a mind reader to answer the "why" question, but Troll Factory is a fact. Titled "Internet Research Agency", located in a suburb of St. Petersburg (Olgino) in the past, not sure of it's whereabouts and status today. I'd say that they were quite effective.

richwicks says

Meanwhile you have a bunch of illegal immigrant Israelis who have come to NYC of all places. to work as "movers".

So what? What's wrong with NYC and why is "movers" quoted? to make it look sinister? I actually used a Israeli-run moving company, in Bay Area, the year was 2003. Apparently it was a popular thing to do among Israelis. Connecting the dots in the way that you are connecting them requires lots of fantasy.

richwicks says

It wasn't a mistake. It was a false flag to provide an excuse that Lyndon B. Johnson needed to go to war with Egypt. The plan was to sink the ship, kill everybody on board, and then say Egypt did it.

I kinda expected the 9/11 conspiracy theory, and expected it to be good in a bizarre kind of way (it is). I didn't see it coming that USS Liberty would be such a close competitor.

You do understand that such a plan would hinge on leaving no survivors, right? Do you know the likelihood of leaving no survivors in such an attack with the number of people onboard in those conditions? Not sure how close to 0 it is, but certainly too low to be a part of an operation. All the while the failure would mean a disaster which would be remembered in ages, which was in fact the aftermath of the incident.

Only a complete imbecile would sign up for such a plan. That's how your theory paints both LBJ and Israelis.

Your really need to develop some healthy criticism for conspiracy theories, no matter how well they fit your worldview. Or else you have "tail wagging the dog" situation.

Like I said, the NSA Transcripts are publicly available and declassified.

Israel was fighting for it's existence and was busy with multiple Syrian and Egyptian Armored Divisions.

The only superpower intervention was the USSR threatening to nuke Israel unless it signed an immediate cease-fire once their client states got their asses kicked.

Israel-bashers 'conveniently' forget the 1000s of MiG-21s, -19s, Su-17s, 130mm Arty, Sa-2s, ZSU-23s, T-55 and T-64 tanks the Soviets gave to Egypt and Syria.

mostly reader says

You do understand that such a plan would hinge on leaving no survivors, right? Do you know the likelihood of leaving no survivors in such an attack with the number of people onboard in those conditions? Not sure how close to 0 it is, but certainly too low to be a part of an operation. All the while the failure would mean a disaster which would be remembered in ages, which was in fact the aftermath of the incident.

You'd also have to believe that :

A) The Israelis knew it was a US Intel Ship even though US ELINT intercepts from aircraft in the Eastern Med captured all the conversations between the IDF jets and their base.
B) The Israelis would sink an INTEL ship, designed to CAPTURE ELINT, before it could get a message out

https://www.nsa.gov/news-features/declassified-documents/uss-liberty/recordings/

For context: An Israel Mobile Force near Al-Arish reported being shelled, and they suspected it was coming from a ship offshore. That is how it began.

The pilots and PT boats had no idea who the boat belonged to, other than it was so close to the warzone is was mere miles off the Sinai Penninsula. The instructions to the Patrol Boats was to immediately ascertain the nationality of the crew. So much for (((THEY KNEW!!!)))

mostly reader says

I'm not a mind reader to answer the "why" question, but Troll Factory is a fact. Titled "Internet Research Agency", located in a suburb of St. Petersburg (Olgino) in the past, not sure of it's whereabouts and status today. I'd say that they were quite effective.

Oh give me an example?

Concorde Management Systems showed up in DC and asked Mueller to proceed with the case. The result is he dropped it, because he just lied about the evidence. The DOJ knew he did as well, they just like he, didn't expect Concorde to show up.

mostly reader says

So what? What's wrong with NYC and why is "movers" quoted?

Oh please, the people working for Urban Moving Systems were intelligence assets - they weren't movers. "Hey, let's become illegals in NYC and work for a company that moves stuff!" - All of their employees were illegal Israeli immigrants. Once their cover was blown, they all moved back to Israel.

mostly reader says

I kinda expected the 9/11 conspiracy theory, and expected it to be good in a bizarre kind of way (it is). I didn't see it coming that USS Liberty would be such a close competitor.

Look, I'm not going to spend time trying to convince you that your government lies to you and does false flags on the population, and produces propaganda. If you don't know all that to be true, I think you're very naive. I don't care to convince you of a particular event being a false flag. I have the UAF simulation of WTC7 collapsing. It's runs on Abacus and SAP 2000 - I'm convinced it was a controlled demolition from that alone. NIST won't release their finite element simulation and their simulation isn't close to observation.

mostly reader says

You do understand that such a plan would hinge on leaving no survivors, right? Do you know the likelihood of leaving no survivors in such an attack with the number of people onboard in those conditions? Not sure how close to 0 it is, but certainly too low to be a part of an operation. All the while the failure would mean a disaster which would be remembered in ages, which was in fact the aftermath of the incident.

The planes were unmarked. Liberty was able to contact the 6th fleet for help, but they were denied assistance. Ideally everybody would have been killed, but it wasn't required.

The US government lies to its soldiers all the time. Find that weapons of mass destruction program in Iraq yet? Henry Kissinger once said that military men are just dumb, stupid animals to be used as pawns in foreign policy.

mostly reader says

Only a complete imbecile would sign up for such a plan. That's how your theory paints both LBJ and Israelis.

Are you kidding? The most blatant obvious false flags take place, and it's IMPOSSIBLE to convince people.

Remember Stephen Paddock the guy that supposedly shot a bunch of people from a hotel? You know what his "profession" was - he was a professional video game poker player. The job doesn't exist, video poker machines know every card you hold, and they can change the deck at will. They are programmed to make a certain amount of payout over time. So one man witnesses him, supposedly, ends up on a SINGLE INTERVIEW on Ellen DeGeneres, then he disappears.

You don't have to figure out what the ULTIMATE reason or plan was, or why you've been lied to - all you need to do is figure out you've been lied to.

So, "debunkers" are like "well, how did WTC1 and 2 fall - how were they wired up" etc - I don't fucking know. I just know WTC7 didn't come down because a building on the other side of the STREET hit it. I know that it's odd Larry Silverstein doubled his insurance and just recently purchased the lease. I know it's very strange that he wasn't in the buildings at the time, as he NORMALLY was. I find it odd that each airline used Israeli security to get the man on the planes. I find it odd that the "5 dancing Israeli" story first disappeared, then was denied to exist, and now the evidence is classified. How odd the Bush family was involved with the security of those buildings. I find it odd that Rumsfeld had changed policy 6 months before so only he could order a shootdown of a rogue plane, and he couldn't be found on 9/11. I remember the shorts on airline stocks, which were never cashed in - I actually checked the trading volumes back then - they were there I guess.

You get a ton of circumstantial evidence, you only need to know that you were lied to, you find out MUCH later why you were.

mostly reader says

Your really need to develop some healthy criticism for conspiracy theories, no matter how well they fit your worldview.

And this is where you're entirely wrong.

Do you know what difference it makes to me that 9/11 was done by our own intelligence agencies?

It doesn't. It's merely interesting. I don't get angry about it, I don't get upset about it, I don't do "truth videos", I just merely find it interesting.

Here's my world view, if you want to know - all governments are criminal syndicates. With that knowledge alone and I understand their motivation. Syria - remove Russian base, get in oil pipeline, better relations with Israel because Israel has wanted the Golan forever. Libya, prevent gold Dinar, Sarkozy was covering up corruption s ell, . Ukraine, oil, prevent nordstream II pipeline - new base, Europe wants ECC in there, US can give them loans as well. It's not really important WHY the US attacked these countries, what is important is that none of them were attacked for the stated reasons. This indicates US public support wouldn't exist if they revealed the true reasons for these interventions and wars.

You see, I am at the age where I simply don't care if somebody calls me a nut. I'm fucking tired of lying in polite company. I'm fucking tired of pretending my government is any different than any other government. I wonder if you realize the US just had a coup - that took a conspiracy to do. Well conspiracies happen ALL the time. People don't believe that the rich and powerful conspire for their own interests, like they don't believe mafia bosses would get together to screw some people over. They're just naive, and I'm tired of pretending to be this naive. Governments are neither good nor evil, they are sociopathic.

richwicks says

Oh give me an example?

Give you an example of what? I gave you the name (Internet Research Agency), city (Olgino), and agenda (to sow discord) Have your search produced nothing, or have you not done any?

richwicks says

Are you kidding? The most blatant obvious false flags take place, and it's IMPOSSIBLE to convince people.

That's because your explanation is anything but convincing. There's faith but there's no evidence. What's usually cited as evidence - accounts of survivors - is meaningless because those on the receiving end of the attack are in no better position to know it's true motives than a casual observer.

Also, you refuse to see gaps in that reasoning. If USS Liberty were a false flag operation (it wasn't), it would've been a very poorly thought out one.

I'll try to make a dent, possibly for the last time before I give up. If it were false flag, why did it not work out? Number of casualties seems consistent with the type of strike, so it should've been part of the plan for anyone who's not a complete moron. What went wrong for LBJ, and what were the odds of it going wrong?

Didn't LBJ mostly continue JFKs policies? What were the main differences?

mostly reader says

richwicks says

Oh give me an example?

Give you an example of what? I gave you the name (Internet Research Agency), city (Olgino), and agenda (to sow discord) Have your search produced nothing, or have you not done any?

Give me an example of how the "Internet Research Agency" has "sowed discord" in American society? What did they do? Did they encourage Burn Loot and Murder to burn down cities and call the people that protested this "white supremacists"? Did they inject unrelenting propaganda in our our "news"?

Our enemy is domestic. How many ways can you list that our GOVERNMENT has "sowed discord"? That's what identity politics is all about. Diversity is strength - for the government.

mostly reader says

richwicks says

Are you kidding? The most blatant obvious false flags take place, and it's IMPOSSIBLE to convince people.

That's because your explanation is anything but convincing. There's faith but there's no evidence.

It's pretty simple, if there's an accident or we are genuinely attacked, all information about it is provided to the public as much as possible to demonize the enemy.

mostly reader says

What's usually cited as evidence - accounts of survivors - is meaningless because those on the receiving end of the attack are in no better position to know it's true motives than a casual observer.

And this is why the survivors of the USS Liberty just want a hearing in front of Congress to find out what happened but they are denied it. That's all they want. Why is it denied?

mostly reader says

Also, you refuse to see gaps in that reasoning. If USS Liberty were a false flag operation (it wasn't), it would've been a very poorly thought out one.

Was the Gulf of Tonkin Incident a well thought out false flag? Didn't have to be, but it did keep the US in Vietnam for a bunch of years.

They think the public is stupid, and they're almost right. The the public isn't stupid, they are gullible and lazy. A false flag attack is like The Big Lie - "Our government wouldn't lie about such a thing to start a war!! Our government always says they do everything they can to avoid war, and war is just a last resort. They wouldn't be so brazen as to deceive me like that".

Yes they would and thousands of people who know the truth will stay silent for "national security reasons".

Anyhow that attempts to explain how this works, or give examples of it in the past, even concrete ones, is demonized and derided. It doesn't really matter what you believe in the end, but if everybody is gullible and naive, it gives the government even more room to be more evil and more destructive.