patrick.net

Like I said, the NSA Transcripts are publicly available and declassified.

Israel was fighting for it's existence and was busy with multiple Syrian and Egyptian Armored Divisions.

The only superpower intervention was the USSR threatening to nuke Israel unless it signed an immediate cease-fire once their client states got their asses kicked.

Israel-bashers 'conveniently' forget the 1000s of MiG-21s, -19s, Su-17s, 130mm Arty, Sa-2s, ZSU-23s, T-55 and T-64 tanks the Soviets gave to Egypt and Syria.

mostly reader says

You do understand that such a plan would hinge on leaving no survivors, right? Do you know the likelihood of leaving no survivors in such an attack with the number of people onboard in those conditions? Not sure how close to 0 it is, but certainly too low to be a part of an operation. All the while the failure would mean a disaster which would be remembered in ages, which was in fact the aftermath of the incident.

You'd also have to believe that :

A) The Israelis knew it was a US Intel Ship even though US ELINT intercepts from aircraft in the Eastern Med captured all the conversations between the IDF jets and their base.
B) The Israelis would sink an INTEL ship, designed to CAPTURE ELINT, before it could get a message out

https://www.nsa.gov/news-features/declassified-documents/uss-liberty/recordings/

For context: An Israel Mobile Force near Al-Arish reported being shelled, and they suspected it was coming from a ship offshore. That is how it began.

The pilots and PT boats had no idea who the boat belonged to, other than it was so close to the warzone is was mere miles off the Sinai Penninsula. The instructions to the Patrol Boats was to immediately ascertain the nationality of the crew. So much for (((THEY KNEW!!!)))

mostly reader says

I'm not a mind reader to answer the "why" question, but Troll Factory is a fact. Titled "Internet Research Agency", located in a suburb of St. Petersburg (Olgino) in the past, not sure of it's whereabouts and status today. I'd say that they were quite effective.

Oh give me an example?

Concorde Management Systems showed up in DC and asked Mueller to proceed with the case. The result is he dropped it, because he just lied about the evidence. The DOJ knew he did as well, they just like he, didn't expect Concorde to show up.

mostly reader says

So what? What's wrong with NYC and why is "movers" quoted?

Oh please, the people working for Urban Moving Systems were intelligence assets - they weren't movers. "Hey, let's become illegals in NYC and work for a company that moves stuff!" - All of their employees were illegal Israeli immigrants. Once their cover was blown, they all moved back to Israel.

mostly reader says

I kinda expected the 9/11 conspiracy theory, and expected it to be good in a bizarre kind of way (it is). I didn't see it coming that USS Liberty would be such a close competitor.

Look, I'm not going to spend time trying to convince you that your government lies to you and does false flags on the population, and produces propaganda. If you don't know all that to be true, I think you're very naive. I don't care to convince you of a particular event being a false flag. I have the UAF simulation of WTC7 collapsing. It's runs on Abacus and SAP 2000 - I'm convinced it was a controlled demolition from that alone. NIST won't release their finite element simulation and their simulation isn't close to observation.

mostly reader says

You do understand that such a plan would hinge on leaving no survivors, right? Do you know the likelihood of leaving no survivors in such an attack with the number of people onboard in those conditions? Not sure how close to 0 it is, but certainly too low to be a part of an operation. All the while the failure would mean a disaster which would be remembered in ages, which was in fact the aftermath of the incident.

The planes were unmarked. Liberty was able to contact the 6th fleet for help, but they were denied assistance. Ideally everybody would have been killed, but it wasn't required.

The US government lies to its soldiers all the time. Find that weapons of mass destruction program in Iraq yet? Henry Kissinger once said that military men are just dumb, stupid animals to be used as pawns in foreign policy.

mostly reader says

Only a complete imbecile would sign up for such a plan. That's how your theory paints both LBJ and Israelis.

Are you kidding? The most blatant obvious false flags take place, and it's IMPOSSIBLE to convince people.

Remember Stephen Paddock the guy that supposedly shot a bunch of people from a hotel? You know what his "profession" was - he was a professional video game poker player. The job doesn't exist, video poker machines know every card you hold, and they can change the deck at will. They are programmed to make a certain amount of payout over time. So one man witnesses him, supposedly, ends up on a SINGLE INTERVIEW on Ellen DeGeneres, then he disappears.

You don't have to figure out what the ULTIMATE reason or plan was, or why you've been lied to - all you need to do is figure out you've been lied to.

So, "debunkers" are like "well, how did WTC1 and 2 fall - how were they wired up" etc - I don't fucking know. I just know WTC7 didn't come down because a building on the other side of the STREET hit it. I know that it's odd Larry Silverstein doubled his insurance and just recently purchased the lease. I know it's very strange that he wasn't in the buildings at the time, as he NORMALLY was. I find it odd that each airline used Israeli security to get the man on the planes. I find it odd that the "5 dancing Israeli" story first disappeared, then was denied to exist, and now the evidence is classified. How odd the Bush family was involved with the security of those buildings. I find it odd that Rumsfeld had changed policy 6 months before so only he could order a shootdown of a rogue plane, and he couldn't be found on 9/11. I remember the shorts on airline stocks, which were never cashed in - I actually checked the trading volumes back then - they were there I guess.

You get a ton of circumstantial evidence, you only need to know that you were lied to, you find out MUCH later why you were.

mostly reader says

Your really need to develop some healthy criticism for conspiracy theories, no matter how well they fit your worldview.

And this is where you're entirely wrong.

Do you know what difference it makes to me that 9/11 was done by our own intelligence agencies?

It doesn't. It's merely interesting. I don't get angry about it, I don't get upset about it, I don't do "truth videos", I just merely find it interesting.

Here's my world view, if you want to know - all governments are criminal syndicates. With that knowledge alone and I understand their motivation. Syria - remove Russian base, get in oil pipeline, better relations with Israel because Israel has wanted the Golan forever. Libya, prevent gold Dinar, Sarkozy was covering up corruption s ell, . Ukraine, oil, prevent nordstream II pipeline - new base, Europe wants ECC in there, US can give them loans as well. It's not really important WHY the US attacked these countries, what is important is that none of them were attacked for the stated reasons. This indicates US public support wouldn't exist if they revealed the true reasons for these interventions and wars.

You see, I am at the age where I simply don't care if somebody calls me a nut. I'm fucking tired of lying in polite company. I'm fucking tired of pretending my government is any different than any other government. I wonder if you realize the US just had a coup - that took a conspiracy to do. Well conspiracies happen ALL the time. People don't believe that the rich and powerful conspire for their own interests, like they don't believe mafia bosses would get together to screw some people over. They're just naive, and I'm tired of pretending to be this naive. Governments are neither good nor evil, they are sociopathic.

richwicks says

Oh give me an example?

Give you an example of what? I gave you the name (Internet Research Agency), city (Olgino), and agenda (to sow discord) Have your search produced nothing, or have you not done any?

richwicks says

Are you kidding? The most blatant obvious false flags take place, and it's IMPOSSIBLE to convince people.

That's because your explanation is anything but convincing. There's faith but there's no evidence. What's usually cited as evidence - accounts of survivors - is meaningless because those on the receiving end of the attack are in no better position to know it's true motives than a casual observer.

Also, you refuse to see gaps in that reasoning. If USS Liberty were a false flag operation (it wasn't), it would've been a very poorly thought out one.

I'll try to make a dent, possibly for the last time before I give up. If it were false flag, why did it not work out? Number of casualties seems consistent with the type of strike, so it should've been part of the plan for anyone who's not a complete moron. What went wrong for LBJ, and what were the odds of it going wrong?

Didn't LBJ mostly continue JFKs policies? What were the main differences?

mostly reader says

richwicks says

Oh give me an example?

Give you an example of what? I gave you the name (Internet Research Agency), city (Olgino), and agenda (to sow discord) Have your search produced nothing, or have you not done any?

Give me an example of how the "Internet Research Agency" has "sowed discord" in American society? What did they do? Did they encourage Burn Loot and Murder to burn down cities and call the people that protested this "white supremacists"? Did they inject unrelenting propaganda in our our "news"?

Our enemy is domestic. How many ways can you list that our GOVERNMENT has "sowed discord"? That's what identity politics is all about. Diversity is strength - for the government.

mostly reader says

richwicks says

Are you kidding? The most blatant obvious false flags take place, and it's IMPOSSIBLE to convince people.

That's because your explanation is anything but convincing. There's faith but there's no evidence.

It's pretty simple, if there's an accident or we are genuinely attacked, all information about it is provided to the public as much as possible to demonize the enemy.

mostly reader says

What's usually cited as evidence - accounts of survivors - is meaningless because those on the receiving end of the attack are in no better position to know it's true motives than a casual observer.

And this is why the survivors of the USS Liberty just want a hearing in front of Congress to find out what happened but they are denied it. That's all they want. Why is it denied?

mostly reader says

Also, you refuse to see gaps in that reasoning. If USS Liberty were a false flag operation (it wasn't), it would've been a very poorly thought out one.

Was the Gulf of Tonkin Incident a well thought out false flag? Didn't have to be, but it did keep the US in Vietnam for a bunch of years.

They think the public is stupid, and they're almost right. The the public isn't stupid, they are gullible and lazy. A false flag attack is like The Big Lie - "Our government wouldn't lie about such a thing to start a war!! Our government always says they do everything they can to avoid war, and war is just a last resort. They wouldn't be so brazen as to deceive me like that".

Yes they would and thousands of people who know the truth will stay silent for "national security reasons".

Anyhow that attempts to explain how this works, or give examples of it in the past, even concrete ones, is demonized and derided. It doesn't really matter what you believe in the end, but if everybody is gullible and naive, it gives the government even more room to be more evil and more destructive.

NoCoupForYou says

The pilots and PT boats had no idea who the boat belonged to, other than it was so close to the warzone is was mere miles off the Sinai Penninsula. The instructions to the Patrol Boats was to immediately ascertain the nationality of the crew. So much for (((THEY KNEW!!!)))

What makes you think everybody involved with a conspiracy has to know they are part of a conspiracy?

Hey, if you were to be making a television that was capable of spying on the purchaser, would you alert the entire engineering team this was a feature? If you wanted to make a machine capable of ballot fraud, would the entire company be alerted to this as a feature on the machine?

I literally slapped my head when I read what you wrote. This are military men, they follow orders, and if they don't, there are severe repercussions. I don't give a FUCK what some redacted report 60 years later says. Why should I? This is just the cleanup operation.

The question remains, why aren't the people who were involved able to talk openly in a congressional session? It really doesn't matter now, all the people that would have been involved with this incident if it was a false flag are gone. They will never know for certain, but that's the point of congressional testimony. Congressman have access to classified information and direct access to intelligence officers. They're all dead or retired now.

They just wanted to be heard, and even THAT won't be fucking allowed. Can't embarrass Israel.

richwicks says

Give me an example of how the "Internet Research Agency" has "sowed discord" in American society? What did they do? Did they encourage Burn Loot and Murder to burn down cities and call the people that protested this "white supremacists"? Did they inject unrelenting propaganda in our our "news"?

Their typical "casual" strategy was to take radical points of view, often opposing, and stir shit in online space. Sometimes there would be a specific task at hand and it would shift away from that "casual" MO. For example, the MH-17 incident required immediate online domination in order to steer away public opinion, which was attempted by throwing a lot of shitty versions on the fan and an army of trolls demanding that each one is considered. "Air controller Carlos", "They targeted Putin", "There was a bomb aboard", "It was shot down by Ukrainian fighter", "The pilot confessed", "They filled the plane with dead bodies", etc, etc, etc. Human attention span is not that great, it can only consume that much, which is why "domination by presence" works even if the presence is full of shit.
But, again, the "casual" strategy was to take radical points of view and stir shit. Pro BLM, pro white supremacists, pro antifa, pro whoever. Then swap the position to the opposite and continue triggering, basically contribute to breaking down the society. No idea if Russia played a part in recent unrests, but I wouldn't be surprised if it was out there in some capacity (most likely there are multiple players involved, possibly both external and internal)

If you think that "false flag" is the only reason to not have Congressional hearing, your imagination is quite unbalanced. It's wild on one end, and poor on the other. I can think of multiple embarrassing issues that such hearing would've uncovered (in communication protocols, in authority overreach, in defense mechanisms) which is why it may have been avoided. You know what it most likely would not have uncovered? A false flag, if there were such, because uncovering that would almost require voluntary confession (yeah, right)

You didn't answer my one key question about USS Liberty: If it were false flag, why did it not work out as such? (that there were survivors is not a reasonable answer because survivors should've be expected in planning of the operation)

mostly reader says

Give me an example of how the "Internet Research Agency" has "sowed discord" in American society? What did they do? Did they encourage Burn Loot and Murder to burn down cities and call the people that protested this "white supremacists"? Did they inject unrelenting propaganda in our our "news"?

Their typical "casual" strategy was to take radical points of view, often opposing, and stir shit in online space. Sometimes there would be a specific task at hand and it would shift away from that "casual" MO. For example, the MH-17 incident required immediate online domination in order to stir away public opinion, which was attempted by throwing a lot of shitty versions on the fan and an army of trolls demanding that each one is considered. "Air controller Carlos", "They targeted Putin", "There was a bomb aboard", "It was shot down by Ukrainian fighter", "The pilot confessed", "They filled the plane with dead bodies", etc, etc, etc. Human attention span is not that g...

But you can't show me any concrete examples of this.

Remember this story?

https://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/2014/07/18/malaysia-airlines-flight-mh17-audio-proves-rebels-shot-boeing_n_5598469.html?guccounter=1&guce_referrer=aHR0cHM6Ly9kdWNrZHVja2dvLmNvbS8&guce_referrer_sig=AQAAABb7g12_rd1_x3olGps9V9J49oC6h49MTWVHxfF8pJOOkAEIecwVARE1eIbpptE57_QfrTdaCSpcB6N5GXKR0K5uhREBhspgOHl4d1bm5-BuaJxIeJCeh8xHIBP6qa44OP-R2kApOdNeEETTuHPBg_4rrO1lLqXDkE7eMom7GHQF

Well the audio they released was analyzed by some jerks on the net, and I downloaded it as well. It's spliced together of two audio clips, one is mono, the other is stereo.

And that's when I ignored it.

Given that I know, for an absolute fact, that the United States overthrew Ukraine, I don't trust anything from my fucking lying government anymore.

Or the UK one. The Skipral story is hilarious. There were 3 victims of that "Novichock" attack - all their pets died - they were sealed in the house for 3 weeks. The cat survived it, but was euthanized in the end. The two gerbils died of lack of food and water. How's that for a nerve agent that a tiny amount can kill a city block? If I wanted to kill them, I'd put Hydrogen Florine on the door knob. That would kill them slowly of mercury poisoning and it wouldn't be traceable, but it would have been certainly noticed as an intentional murder. Super dangerous to handle that stuff. I could put a drop on your hand, and you're dead 3 months later. Organic mercury is scary.

Anyhow, our government really really wants to restart the Cold War because HOLY FUCK that was lucrative for the "defense" industry. The MIC hated that the USSR collapsed and we were about to have a "peace dividend" after 40 years of that bullshit. Good thing the "war on terror" showed up conveniently. It's all just about fucking money and power.

mostly reader says

If you think that "false flag" is the only reason to not have Congressional hearing, your imagination is quite unbalanced. It's wild on one end, and poor on the other.

Oh my god, I just don't give a goddamned what your opinion is.

mostly reader says

You didn't answer my one key question about USS Liberty: If it were false flag, why did it not work out as such?

Same reason the Lavon affair didn't work - they got caught. Duh.

richwicks says

But you can't show me any concrete examples of this.

What kind of concrete example do you expect? A post from account which has been deleted a long time ago? Accumulation of posts from different accounts, you want me to track them down? Those in which people "forget" their prior identities, and first post as a male and then as a female?

I personally have seen enough to confirm what I wrote above with high confidence. This is a lot more than what you offer in support of your theories.

richwicks says

Same reason the Lavon affair didn't work - they got caught. Duh.

Ok, now it looks like you are trolling. Note that you are doing it to a person who patiently works with you through your conspiracy theory, while others just call you a nut.
How did they get caught? by not sinking the ship, by leaving survivors, by doing or not doing what?

mostly reader says

mostly reader says

Same reason the Lavon affair didn't work - they got caught. Duh.

Ok, now it looks like you are trolling. Note that you are doing it to a person who patiently works with you through your conspiracy theory,

The people who were there, bombed, and survived, THEY believe it was a false flag attack. Who am I to disagree? You can argue it with them.

I've listed multiple conspiracies that were called "conspiracy theories". Operation PBSuccess, Operation Ajax, Project MKUltra, The Tuskegee Trails, Operation Northwoods (aborted), Gulf of Tonkin Incident, the Lavon Affair ALL of these happened and then the USS Liberty. These are done by the intelligence agencies more often than not.

I have to spend post after post after post after post after post explaining why the USS Liberty, in particular, was a false flag. Do you think I give a shit about a PARTICULAR false flag or a PARTICULAR conspiracy that is considered a "conspiracy theory"?

No, I don't. I don't care.

Say I'm wrong on this - so what?

We just had a coup, and what's difficult is getting people to understand conspiracies happen. They are so naive and gullible that even when a conspiracy happens RIGHT IN FRONT OF THEM, they don't have the fucking balls to not believe the media. They are slaves to authority, have no ability to think for themselves, and they are the REAL ones giving up this nation. It's not a couple of people that sold this nation into 70 years of slavery which may begin in 2 months, it's people like you.

You are hung up on this very specific, who gives a shit, issue while a coup of the United States is taking place.

Good for the Mossad though murdering more Iranian nuclear scientists while they have a clandestine "secret" nuclear weapons program that unlike Iran, doesn't have IAEA inspections, and Israel won't sign the NNPT like nearly ever fucking other country in the world does - including the United States. Just disgusted with their hypocrisy.

richwicks says

The people who were there, bombed, and survived, THEY believe it was a false flag attack. Who am I to disagree? You can argue it with them.

Those people are in better position than others to give details of the attack. They are NOT in better position than casual observer to offer motivation for the attack, and it's the motivation that we discuss. On the contrary. Getting bombed sucks, especially by an ally, and may lead to all kinds of biases.

richwicks says

Say I'm wrong on this - so what?

richwicks says

You are hung up on this very specific, who gives a shit

I can only discuss one item at a time, and time is sparse. I did the one which you used to start this enlightening conversation. I'm not going to check your entire laundry list, quantity is not quality.

It doesn't mean I disagree with everything that you post, but I would suggest that you are more critical of your data.

Dixi.

mostly reader says

It doesn't mean I disagree with everything that you post, but I would suggest that you are more critical of your data.

The USS Liberty is not vitally important. It is important to know governments engage in conspiracies. I listed the USS Liberty as just one example. If you want PROVEN examples, there's the Lavon Affair, there's the fact Lehi murdered Count Bernadotte then their leader (they were a triumvirate) Yitzhak Shamir became PM, or the bombing of the King David Hotel, bombed by Irgun where one of it's leader Menachem Begin ordered the attack.

See? The British don't care if Israelis murder their men - do they? They had no problem with two terrorists becoming PM of Israel even when their own military were attacked. Think the US does?

Kissinger said military men are just dumb, stupid animals to be used as pawns in foreign policy - and he wasn't kidding. That's not how just Kissinger thinks of military men, that's how the entire government thinks of us and military men. We're all cannon fodder.