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Regarding a UBI


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2021 Mar 5, 12:54pm   3,857 views  63 comments

by Zak   ➕follow (0)   💰tip   ignore  

"Some people will take the money and sit around and do nothing, but so what?"

I was thinking about this, and came up with the following. Tldr : eliminate income tax, and create a prosperity dividend instead of a UBI
--

For UBI, the money doesn't magically come from nowhere. You have to take it from someone to give it to someone else. If you "print" it, then you take it from everyone equally, but it then gets spent and redistributed into the hands of business owners who benefit from the spending. This therefore hurts people who are not in the capitalist class through inflation. You can see this is true, because of our current minimum/living wage fight. If increasing GDP over time with inflation is supposed to help everyone, then the minimum wage shouldn't continue to be an issue, as more economic output distributed equally would tend to create additional higher paying jobs. Instead what we see is a reversion to a low paying service economy with more and more people bouncing off the minimum wage floor. At the same time, the wealth disparity is increasing, and the richest 1% have gained substantially more than the 99% below them over the previous 40 years. This can't be blamed on republicans, or democrats, or taxes, as taxes only take further from incomes, and don't ADD to people's incomes. Additionally, the trend has been consistent over both republican and democrat led presidencies and congresses.

So again, currently with a UBI, you will get inflation, which hurts savers, and benefits the 1%, as they get the money. So the bottom 10% will be marginally better off, the middle 89% will be markedly WORSE off, and the 1% will consolidate further wealth (as always). So what's the answer?

In my very humble opinion, a start to the answer is to eliminate the w-2 income tax, and instead gather that tax from income and wages paid by corporations. With the middle class no longer worried that every tax proposed will fiscally damage them, they will be willing to vote for social programs that come from tax revenues instead of from inflation. The tax code will be more fair, as corporations with actual lobbying power will fight amongst themselves to equalize taxes paid. Corporations will be the first to rat each other out from these double irish sandwich tax loops if it means they can lower their own tax burden, instead of jus relying on income taxes to fuel the government, and weasleing their way out of their fair share.

Then, we can do a UBI, but instead of a fixed base income, it can be a prosperity dividend. If the country does well, and GDP goes up, you get a bigger payout. If we have a bad year, your payout won't be as big, but we won't create inflation to erode your savings. Additionally, we eliminate 90% of the IRS having to focus on individual tax returns, and they can focus on corporate compliance. This also saves billions of dollars in paperwork and tax return costs each year.

A side benefit, all the government conspiracy theorist/haters will have a massive reduction in anti-government sentiment, as they are no longer under the gun from the IRS. And instead of people being against corporations (big AND small), we will be cheering for them to earn massive profits, and earn us a higher prosperity dividend.

Additionally, I could see the rich actually lobbying for HIGHER capital gains taxes, and lower wage taxes, as wage taxes would need to be paid every year, but capital gains can occur much less frequently.

What do you guys think?

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27   PeopleUnited   2021 Mar 13, 6:23pm  

Zak says
against mandatory income taxes


Are taxes the problem or is the way they are spent the real issue? The government should not need to collect income taxes, this is true. In fact the government has no right to even know the assets of any person.

But what we really need is to stop spending other people’s money to pad the pockets of (fill in the blank) government should be small and local and accountable to the people. Not large and federal and oppressive to the people.
28   SunnyvaleCA   2021 Mar 13, 6:51pm  

HeadSet says
One reason for so many grammar errors in the print news is the offshoring of the writing to places where English is not the main language

Yeah, the United States!
29   SunnyvaleCA   2021 Mar 13, 6:55pm  

PeopleUnited says
[UBI] Sounds logical on the surface. But the devil is in the details.
We're now an open-borders non-country, so:
5. Cannot afford UBI for 1 billion or more extra people.
30   HeadSet   2021 Mar 13, 7:11pm  

SunnyvaleCA says
HeadSet says
One reason for so many grammar errors in the print news is the offshoring of the writing to places where English is not the main language

Yeah, the United States!

¿Que?
31   PeopleUnited   2021 Mar 13, 9:13pm  

SunnyvaleCA says
PeopleUnited says
[UBI] Sounds logical on the surface. But the devil is in the details.
We're now an open-borders non-country, so:
5. Cannot afford UBI for 1 billion or more extra people.


But it’s the birthright of all foreign born persons to suckle off the American teat!
32   Patrick   2021 Mar 13, 9:36pm  

HeadSet says
One reason for so many grammar errors in the print news is the offshoring of the writing to places where English is not the main language.



I've also become convinced that most of the articles written about stocks on Yahoo finance are not even written by humans at all. They are just AI generated tripe, no real content, no human reporter.

But at least they get the spelling right! :-)
33   WookieMan   2021 Mar 14, 12:02pm  

A family of four, married filing jointly, making under $150k is going to get $5,600. Just given to them. Read an article where 89% of the population will get full stimulus payments, while a small fraction of that 89% will get a reduced amount capping at $160k. This is so fucked. Because of the flu?

I'm astonished that 2 working adults cannot make more than $150k combined. Maybe I'm naive, but I really can't comprehend how if you're over 35-60, that you can't pull in $150k combined. Only 11% of the population does that? And yes I know some people own businesses and have lower income but can theoretically make more.

But for a family making $100k they're going to get 5.6% of their annual income just handed to them tax free. That's insane.
34   HeadSet   2021 Mar 14, 12:46pm  

WookieMan says
I'm astonished that 2 working adults cannot make more than $150k combined. Maybe I'm naive, but I really can't comprehend how if you're over 35-60, that you can't pull in $150k combined.


Many "married filing jointly" are single income earners. Especially with school age children.
35   mell   2021 Mar 15, 9:39am  

WookieMan says
A family of four, married filing jointly, making under $150k is going to get $5,600. Just given to them. Read an article where 89% of the population will get full stimulus payments, while a small fraction of that 89% will get a reduced amount capping at $160k. This is so fucked. Because of the flu?

I'm astonished that 2 working adults cannot make more than $150k combined. Maybe I'm naive, but I really can't comprehend how if you're over 35-60, that you can't pull in $150k combined. Only 11% of the population does that? And yes I know some people own businesses and have lower income but can theoretically make more.

But for a family making $100k they're going to get 5.6% of their annual income just handed to them tax free. That's insane.


Gender studies doesn't pay much. But at least you can go off on a crazed tangent once in a while and make someone's life miserable and sticking it to the white patriarchic heteronormative supremacists!
36   RC2006   2021 Mar 15, 9:48am  

Large percentage of new college grads never go beyond barista.
37   zzyzzx   2021 Mar 15, 10:01am  

WookieMan says
I'm astonished that 2 working adults cannot make more than $150k combined.


I agree. But I figure that's almost nobody on this board that isn't retired.
39   Ceffer   2024 Jan 1, 11:48pm  

Patrick says





Zoo animals take Captagon, too?
40   AD   2024 Jan 31, 11:21pm  

Mish Talk website posted about the House of Representatives passing child tax credits bill today which is essentially universal basic income (UBI).
41   DOGEWontAmountToShit   2024 Feb 1, 10:48am  

AD says

Mish Talk website posted about the House of Representatives passing child tax credits bill today which is essentially universal basic income (UBI).


Really? How come I don't get the credits then?

If it ain't universal then it ain't universal.
42   Misc   2024 Feb 3, 11:30am  

The government is trying to improve the domestic fertility rate. Raising kids is enormously expensive. The increase to the child tax credit is nowhere even close to the cost of raising a child, but it does add a little incentive for heterosexual couples to have children and marry.

Looks to me a step in the right direction.
43   HeadSet   2024 Feb 3, 2:49pm  

AD says

Mish Talk website posted about the House of Representatives passing child tax credits bill today which is essentially universal basic income (UBI).

No, that child tax credit is another form of welfare that is paid through the IRS system.
44   DOGEWontAmountToShit   2024 Feb 3, 4:48pm  

Misc says

The government is trying to improve the domestic fertility rate. Raising kids is enormously expensive. The increase to the child tax credit is nowhere even close to the cost of raising a child, but it does add a little incentive for heterosexual couples to have children and marry.

Looks to me a step in the right direction.


How about...oh, I dunno...doing something else like fixing the root cause of the problem instead?


45   HeadSet   2024 Feb 3, 6:01pm  



Yes, because:
That car was built in Detroit
That suite was made in New York
The home radio and record player were made in Illinois
The TV was made in Ohio
The family clothes were made in North Carolina
The washing machine was made in a midwest city
The house was built with American contractors using American labor and American make materials
Even the telephone was an American made Western Electric device
47   Patrick   2024 Jul 20, 4:00pm  

HeadSet says

Yes, because:
That car was built in Detroit
That suite was made in New York
The home radio and record player were made in Illinois
The TV was made in Ohio
The family clothes were made in North Carolina
The washing machine was made in a midwest city
The house was built with American contractors using American labor and American make materials
Even the telephone was an American made Western Electric device


Outsourcing to China and the mass import of criminal aliens are the root causes of American poverty from shifting wages away from workers and up to stockholders:

https://patrick.net/post/1381434/2024-06-01-grand-unified-theory-of-recent
51   WookieMan   2024 Oct 16, 8:54am  

UBI leads to nothing. Family formation drops because you're allocating the income to yourself. Why would you have a family if you don't have to work as much?

We were freaked out when we had our first kid. $70k per year combined (housing bust). Not god awful, but not good. Fast forward 15 years and you know what? It made us focus on making more to raise our kids.

Fast forward to this year and 3 kids, we'll make $500k this year. UBI makes you lazy. That's why it doesn't work. Lowers GDP as well as people need to be more thrifty if they don't want to work. That's why welfare and Section 8 are economy killers. If you don't have a job, you shouldn't be able to eat.

If you're disabled, fine I get it. But if you can read, write, walk and talk, you can get a job. Childcare welfare I'm okay with actually. Because you can get a job. They should dump the link card system as well. At some point people need the motivation to survive. If they don't then they die I guess. Sad, but that happens in the rest of the world.

There's opportunity galore in this country. There really is no excuse for a UBI.
52   DOGEWontAmountToShit   2024 Oct 16, 9:00am  

WookieMan says

made us focus on making more to raise our kids.


Exactly.



It's far, far worse in Korea.
53   DOGEWontAmountToShit   2024 Oct 16, 9:07am  

WookieMan says

Family formation drops because you're allocating the income to yourself. Why would you have a family if you don't have to work as much?


This is another interesting take on that:


54   zzyzzx   2024 Oct 16, 9:15am  

WookieMan says

UBI makes you lazy.


True, but I'm thinking more along the lines of it's lazy people that want UBI.
55   komputodo   2024 Oct 16, 9:58am  

zzyzzx says

True, but I'm thinking more along the lines of it's lazy people that want UBI.

true, and the UBI will make them even lazier
56   komputodo   2024 Oct 16, 10:00am  

DemocratsAreTotallyFucked says

It's far, far worse in Korea.

2 things....which Korea and far worse it what way?
57   komputodo   2024 Oct 16, 10:39am  

HeadSet says

I'm astonished that 2 working adults cannot make more than $150k combined. Maybe I'm naive, but I really can't comprehend how if you're over 35-60, that you can't pull in $150k combined.

yeah, a little bit...
58   RC2006   2024 Oct 16, 11:34am  

komputodo says

HeadSet says


I'm astonished that 2 working adults cannot make more than $150k combined. Maybe I'm naive, but I really can't comprehend how if you're over 35-60, that you can't pull in $150k combined.

yeah, a little bit...


I would agree but I've seen some pretty lowbal offers made to tech positions fresh out of college iin high cost of living areas, like they are getting an offer that is what I would have gotten 25 years ago seemed laughable . Not sure how wide spread it is but with inflation i feel gen Z is getting fucked over pretty bad.

I do agree over 40 with experience are commanding a decent wage but with kids and inflation they are getting wrecked 150k isn't what it use to be.
59   HeadSet   2024 Oct 16, 11:55am  

komputodo says

HeadSet says


I'm astonished that 2 working adults cannot make more than $150k combined. Maybe I'm naive, but I really can't comprehend how if you're over 35-60, that you can't pull in $150k combined.

yeah, a little bit...

I did not say that, Wookie did. I countered with "Many "married filing jointly" are single income earners. Especially with school age children."
60   WookieMan   2024 Oct 16, 12:53pm  

RC2006 says

I do agree over 40 with experience are commanding a decent wage but with kids and inflation they are getting wrecked 150k isn't what it use to be.

$150k is like $80k after taxes, fees and expenses to keep the lights on and move you around. If you're not above $250k there's no travel, no splurging, maybe a $400-600k house with good credit and no debt.

We just decided to make more and did. We'll enter house poor phase, but with sports and activities our house is our hotel at this point. Kids are getting larger, not fat, oldest is 14 and is 6' already. We'll pay it off by the time they move out or stay however that works out.

Our plan is a top 1-2% earner plan. In 20-30 years our house with inflation will be $1.4M at least and paid off with $5M minimum in the bank/retirement funds. As a couple with no kids, we could live off the annual interest on that forever. Pretty sure my wife will work until she's 60 or so as she's greedy. Might eventually get shares of ownership. So this might balloon to $15-20M above that given the ages of the 2 owners. It's a $50M company now and my wife was 90% of that growth.

I'm not bragging. Sometimes it helps to type/talk it out.

X factor. Death. Just had a friends mom die. Hit and run. Roughest news I've heard in a while. Like really rough. The grandma, mom of the mom dies 2 days later. I usually don't cry about death unless it's my family. This grown ass man has cried a couple times today. I'm also pissed at the piece of shit that hit someone with a car and just keeps going. It was a no outlet subdivision, so hopefully someone got them on a camera.

His dad recently passed away too. Death happens, but fuck, your mom gets killed in a rural subdivision. Pull the fuck over and own up. You likely won't get jail time. Now once caught probably looking at 10 years at least. This is why I don't touch a phone in the car or mess with the radio. Just drive. Usual tangent.... sorry.
61   stereotomy   2024 Oct 16, 4:44pm  

komputodo says


DemocratsAreTotallyFucked says


It's far, far worse in Korea.

2 things....which Korea and far worse it what way?


BOTH Koreas. In fact, South Korea is worse than NK, with a birthrate of around 0.5. That is fall off the cliff in the "Greatest Earthquake Ever Known" into The Land of Lost territory bad. I didn't even mention the Sleestack . . .
62   DOGEWontAmountToShit   2024 Oct 16, 5:27pm  

komputodo says


2 things....which Korea and far worse it what way?


South Korea

Gender Wars in their version of Gen Z. Far, far worse than here. There is open violence amongst the genders even. Mostly incel men attacking single women. Lot more rapes going on probablly, but unreported.

Birth rate is catastrophic as a result. 0.7 or so. Might as well be zero.

Last year, 230,000 babies were born...OUT 51 MILLION ppl. Average age of Korean women when they pop out their first kid: 36

Out of wedlock births are still taboo there. They may have to revisit that.

North Korea has other reasons...mostly because of past famine and heavy social population control similar to China. All that can be reversed. In a couple of decades, their standing army will go from 4 million to 2 million. But South Korea's will go to 500,000 unless they start drafting women.

Of course, the South's infrastructure will have collapsed along with the tax base long before that.

Norks just have to bide their time.

https://youtu.be/lmoZ_W4WjW0?si=pMdbpXODOk3AFhk0

https://youtu.be/7ry2IhtQvgY?si=ztOr465p5VgFRYh-
63   AmericanKulak   2024 Oct 16, 6:47pm  

stereotomy says

BOTH Koreas. In fact, South Korea is worse than NK, with a birthrate of around 0.5. That is fall off the cliff in the "Greatest Earthquake Ever Known" into The Land of Lost territory bad. I didn't even mention the Sleestack . . .

Feminism is worse than starving under a One-Party Totalitarian regime.

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