patrick.net

I think there is a lot of evidence that one or two drinks a day actually lowers your risk of death:

https://publications.parliament.uk/pa/cm201012/cmselect/cmsctech/1536/1536vw08.htm




At 4 per day, men have probably negated the benefit. The problem is keeping the level down when it's tempting to have another.

I think the 'alcohol is good for you' lobby running 'research' and 'stats' have been advisors on the Covid crisis.

If you have a high profit addictive substance, they will generate any reassurance you want to keep you taking that first one, then the other, then the other.......

i think most people who drink believe they are drinking the exact, perfectly health enhancing amount, even if they are downing two bottles of wine at dinner.

My wife is hilarious, because she only drinks infrequently. Every couple of months, she will get one of those smaller bottle of wine and keep it in the refrigerator. She will pull it out for whatever reason, and drink it in front of TV. Reliably, she will get goofy and happy for a bit, then she will transition into being supercilious, obnoxious and combative, and then will pass out snoring. This is all within about 30 or 40 minutes. When she wakes up, she always says: "I have to stop doing this to myself" and is hung over the next day, all on about a glass and a half of wine. She makes me laugh until the next time a few months later.

Sure, I can believe that the effects are dependent on your sex and genetics to a large degree.

But I'm pretty certain that a small amount of alcohol daily reduces mortality from heart disease even if nothing else. There's just too much evidence from too many sources over too long a time period. The only question is the optimal number above zero.

You can find data that shows that esophageal cancer rates rise in exact proportion to the amount of alcohol consumed per day, and you can also find stats showing that there is a bigger decrease in deaths from heart disease with the first couple of drinks per day, and you can superimpose them to get approximately the overall observed effect.

This has been an issue for me lately, I believe due to severely limiting added sugar in my diet. I've always had a problem getting rid of headaches, all medication became ineffective over 10 years ago. And for some reason lately, even a single beer can cause a headache. Thinking about trying organic to see if that helps things, and I rarely have a problem with straight liquor(tequila, rum, etc). I love beer, can probably name more types than anyone on this sub, but I'm SO over the headaches. So lately it's been beer once a month, or whenever we go someplace that has one I like. Also, my wife has been staying away from alcohol due to temporary diet restrictions, otherwise I'd probably have wine at least once a month(her favorite).

You know what's never given me any problems? Cannabis. And that may be what I do from here on out.

LOL! Everybody gets in these circular discussions about alcohol People drink because it is mind altering and makes them feel good. If they feel good, even temporarily, they will easily believe it is also good for them and their health.

IT'S A WATER SOLUBLE METABOLIC POISON! I learned that at UC Berkeley as a a freshman when a couple of chemistry grad students threw a party and used the wrong alcohol. One died, and one was blind, and some were very ill. Ethyl alcohol is no different from what they drank, except that our bodies have metabolic pathways that will detoxify it.

NuttBoxer says

You know what's never given me any problems? Cannabis.

I tend to forget things more if I regularly have edibles. But aside from that, no problem.

Well, the alcohol debate could go on forever, but I'm pretty convinced that a small amount daily (1 or 2 drinks) is beneficial. I admit it's dangerous because people are so tempted to go beyond the small amount.

As far as Covid jabs go, too, because of the generalized inflammatory effects of alcohol (and especially the even more toxic intermediate aldehyde state) drinking might exacerbate the inflammatory conditioning of the vaccines.

Kinna makes me wonder if drinkers who are jabbees might be having extra trouble with their brews post jab.

I drink 2 beers or half of wine bottle on Saturday and Sunday evening when sitting out in yard with family and/or friends. This is more for social reasons than for getting a buzz. If I drink more, I have trouble sleeping and get headaches (may be related to what @Nuttboxer says - we also have cut out most carbs from diet). On hiking vacations, 2 beers or half wine nearly every evening after we get home from hiking - somehow after physical exertion (6-10 mile hiking in mountains) I have no issues whatsoever with that amount of consumption.

Ceffer says

IT'S A WATER SLUBLE METABOLIC POISON! I learned that at UC Berkeley asa a freshman when a couple of chemistry grad students threw a party and used the wrong alcohol. One died, and one was blind, and some were very ill. Ethyl alcohol is no different from what they drank, except that our bodies have metabolic pathways that will detoxify it.

Methanol, CH3OH, will make humans go blind or die. If I recall, one needs to drink less than 7 milliliters to go blind.

Ceffer says

IT'S A WATER SLUBLE METABOLIC POISON!

Alcohol is a waste product of fermentation microbes. That is, alcohol is yeast piss.

This is a pretty sober crowd.
When I drank I thought everybody drank, but it turns out 30% of the country are teetotal.
Up my way they seemingly all smoke weed though.

Alcohol on moderation is proven to enhance longevity, around 1-2 drinks per day for a woman and 1-4 for a man. Now if they are not spaced out it's closer to the lower number, if you space them out to the max it could even be higher. That being said, you don't do everything for health, sometimes it's fun to split a bottle of wine or two, esp. good wine or have a few beers in a German beergarden on a hot summer night. The problem is that the US population has a high number of addicts to all kinds of things, incl. alcohol. Especially womyn drink way too much. If you drink to a buzz you must be a "fun" drunk, nothing worse than those who change to combative/belligerent. I also agree with the comment that if you want to make it about a health challenge quite a few drinkers may lose to non drinkers but only because - as pointed out - they can't properly self-assess and often underestimate the amounts they drink.

I'm also surprised about the amount of abstinence here on patnet. While I slowed down I'll never give it up. Prost!

mell says

I'm also surprised about the amount of abstinence here on patnet.

There is a difference between abstinence and occasional imbibing. I gave the reason why I don't do it, but it's not abstinence. Just don't fit in with my other obligations. I can still indulge on rare occasions.

Rb6d says

Ceffer says

IT'S A WATER SLUBLE METABOLIC POISON! I learned that at UC Berkeley asa a freshman when a couple of chemistry grad students threw a party and used the wrong alcohol. One died, and one was blind, and some were very ill. Ethyl alcohol is no different from what they drank, except that our bodies have metabolic pathways that will detoxify it.

Methanol, CH3OH, will make humans go blind or die. If I recall, one needs to drink less than 7 milliliters to go blind.

Right, the difference to a human between ethanol and methanol is enormous. It doesn't make sense to compare them.

In fact, the treatment for methanol poisoning is to give a large quantity of ethanol immediately. Dilutes the methanol in some way.

Robert Sproul says

This is a pretty sober crowd.

Alcohol consumption per person is on an exponential curve. Maybe I can find the graph...



from https://www.researchgate.net/figure/Alcohol-consumption-distribution-in-grams-per-day-of-pure-alcohol-for-men-in-Germany_fig2_223971732

14 grams is one drink.

Most people don't drink much, but a few drink a lot. Not sure why it's so clearly exponential like that.

Patrick says

Most people don't drink much, but a few drink a lot. Not sure why it's so clearly exponential like that.

I think it's because it's a narcotic that can be addictive. Some people are behind the 8-ball with a genetic predisposition to the addiction.

Others can enjoy it occasionally without the addiction.

There is a statistical correlation between moderate alcohol consumption and longevity.
But, there may not be a causation, maybe red wine contains useful chemicals.
Ethanol pe se isn’t that good for you; it’s quickly converted to aldehyde in our body.
Aldehydes are toxic.
I’m not actually avoiding alcohol but just mentioning the aldehyde thing.
That’s why a hangover is bad.

In small amounts (less than one drink for a man) ethanol activates garbage collection in your brain and actually cleans it out.

It doesn't work if you drink more than that.

At least, so says a paper I skimmed a couple of years ago.

The same thing occurs during the Delta wave portion of your sleep cycle:

https://www.newscientist.com/article/2222016-a-type-of-brainwave-may-help-clean-your-brain-while-you-sleep/

My bass player is an alcoholic, and 80% of the time he's more interested in how many beers are still in the fridge.
We polish off at least a 12 pack, and sometimes have to go another one. As soon as the beer runs out, he notices how late it is, and leaves before his van turns back into a pumpkin.

I can go several weeks without having another beer before I see him again.

mell says

I'm also surprised about the amount of abstinence here on patnet. While I slowed down I'll never give it up. Prost!

Old comment, but I agree. I'm a technical alcoholic and have been slowing down consumption for sure as I age. I know my urges and issues. One vice for another, but weed has helped immensely. Mine is anxiety, if I keep that in check I consume little beer (only beer). All of my grandparents were alcoholics. My FIL and MIL were/are too, but that's not blood, just social motivation to drink. BIL died from it at 40 with two kids. So I do take it seriously. I feel great though, and not justifying my consumption, it's above average for sure, but I'm almost done needing it for anxiety (beer) for self medication.

I don't understand the people that still have stigma towards pot. It really is an amazing drug. It is 100% harmless if eaten via edibles. I'm the most calm I've been in 2 decades. Smoked a ton in high school and college and then stopped. Started here and there over time, but still had that paranoid feeling that everyone knew I was high. With it being legal here I'll legit just tell people I took a gummy. At a kids evening baseball game I'd guess 50-60% of people are high, drinking booze from a Yeti or coked out. At least here in rural IL where we don't give a shit about what you do but everyone is productive.

As far as airports, it's 100% anxiety. Mine is more about comfort. I know the plane won't crash and if it did I'd known I lived a good life. I can't stand the size of the seats as a tall guy. Sometimes some bad FA's can make a flight shit or other passengers/kids. If we don't have to drive at the destination, whether a kids trip our just the wife and I, we pound it pretty hard. Puerto Rico is my favorite lounge we visit. Pound it and sleep on the flight for 3-1/2 hours. We'll bring mimosas and drink them on the bus from the parking garage to terminal to save some $$$. $16 per small glass at MDW. Airports are a racket. Force you into one space and you can charge what you want.

From my limited but quite extensive research I believe alcohol in moderation promotes longevity, esp. red wine. But also beer, whiskey (ellagic acid) and pretty much anything else. I also think the total amount is less important than the lamestream media and "experts" make you believe, but rather how much you drink at once. I think 2 glasses for men and one for women each night are likely beneficial, and if you space them out you can have 1-2 more over lunch, esp. if you use cheap "table wine" for lunch to dilute with water such as Mediterranean countries do, even for kids wine diluted with enough with water is 100 x healthier than sodas or excessive amounts of fruit juices. Definitely much healthier than not drinking and taking the covid jab ;)

https://www.forbes.com/sites/elvaramirez/2021/06/01/study-no-amount-of-drinking-alcohol-is-safe-for-brain-health/?sh=6ec9a83e7eaa

Patrick says

I think there is a lot of evidence that one or two drinks a day actually lowers your risk of death:

https://publications.parliament.uk/pa/cm201012/cmselect/cmsctech/1536/1536vw08.htm




At 4 per day, men have probably negated the benefit. The problem is keeping the level down when it's tempting to have another.

mell says

even for kids wine diluted with enough with water is 100 x healthier than sodas or excessive amounts of fruit juices.

My wife is on board to introducing alcohol to the kids when they're teens. My parents stigmatized it so much that when I got old enough I felt like I had to drink because it was forbidden. Basically defying them by drinking and not enjoying it in moderation. It's a balancing act that no one really has an answer to. I get why my parents did it the way they did because of their parents, but it's hard when booze is advertised everywhere. Hell a grocery store dedicates 5-10% of their square footage to booze. It's this forbidden product, but all you do is see it everywhere.

And Waitup says

https://www.forbes.com/sites/elvaramirez/2021/06/01/study-no-amount-of-drinking-alcohol-is-safe-for-brain-health/?sh=6ec9a83e7eaa

Over time I develop more and more respect for old traditions, because they probably have value. There is a stereotype that "Jews don't drink", but then there is also a religious obligation for Jews to drink a glass of red wine each Friday evening, and another one Saturday evening. And four glasses on Passover, and to get completely blitzed on Purim. And I think they drink a bit on all their holidays actually.

That amount of drinking doesn't seem too harmful for their brain health. Not that this proves anything, just noticing correlations.

Airplane is the worst possilble place to drink alcohol: just sitting in that air-conditioned tube with recycled air dehydrates you, but adding alcohol to the mix only makes it worse.

I drink, just not on planes.

Ha. Love the bee. Time does not exist in airports. I've had a 5 am beer to take the edge off before a 6 am flight. Slept like a rock the entire way across the country.

Patrick says

And Waitup says

https://www.forbes.com/sites/elvaramirez/2021/06/01/study-no-amount-of-drinking-alcohol-is-safe-for-brain-health/?sh=6ec9a83e7eaa

Over time I develop more and more respect for old traditions, because they probably have value. There is a stereotype that "Jews don't drink", but then there is also a religious obligation for Jews to drink a glass of red wine each Friday evening, and another one Saturday evening. And four glasses on Passover, and to get completely blitzed on Purim. And I think they drink a bit on all their holidays actually.

That amount of drinking doesn't seem too harmful for their brain health. Not that this proves anything, just noticing correlations.

This article smells. Later on they advise to maybe drink less since "alcohol can suppress the immune system" when mixing with covid jabs. This is all you need to know where this "research" is coming from. If you play soccer (or any other sport with repetitive trauma to the head) or drink for some time in your life you will lose a certain amount of brain cells, but it's nothing significant if you don't binge, there are always exceptions. The changes they observed could be from anything, the average age was 54, by that time brains degrade for so many reasons (one simple explanation could be that those who decide not go out and drink spend more time exercising their brain at home).

Patrick says

That amount of drinking doesn't seem too harmful for their brain health. Not that this proves anything, just noticing correlations.

Trust me, you can drink copious amounts of alcohol and function. My SIL has 6 DUI's and would not be considered an alcoholic as crazy as that sounds. The way you handle alcohol is generally the way that ends with problems in your life that shortens it. At least that's my observation. My BIL is the only one I know where booze is what actually killed him. Anyone else was an accident, though due to alcohol likely.

People used to drink beer and alcohol because the water quality would make them more sick as their piss and shit was just flowing into water sources. None of us would probably be here without alcohol (not sex, water quality). The key is managing what you drink. I think 1-3 drinks daily, especially spread out is no biggie. Size/weight does matter too. I'm a 3-6 beer (light) guy. Daily. I'm 6'3"ish and 220lbs. Besides my sleep issues, I haven't been hungover or felt poorly the next morning since college. Some of my 5'6" 120lbs buddies ain't gonna do well on that dose. 1-2 for them.

Covid has honestly opened pandoras box with the medical field. Is alcohol bad in excess, duh, yes. I don't think it is all that bad though as it is difficult to stay employed if you drink too much. I fear big Pharma more than booze. Even OTC meds. They do worse damage to your liver. The one organ people ignore with alcohol is the pancreas. That's what usually gets most alcoholics regardless of what you hear about the liver. My dad lived 10 years with terminal liver cancer. This was after lung cancer. The liver is a resilient organ.

And no, not justifying any of my habits. I should drink less and I don't promote it. Go to a bar for a month daily. Let me know the demo you see there. 50-70 year olds drinking nightly. Our townie bar is probably 50-70% all geezers over 55-60. I prefer them to be honest when we go out. Better conversation and probably why I frequent Patnet to get some older insight. Time is education and they've seen more. Some are morons, but I'm not a douche so I get along with most people.

WookieMan says

Patrick says

That amount of drinking doesn't seem too harmful for their brain health. Not that this proves anything, just noticing correlations.

Trust me, you can drink copious amounts of alcohol and function. My SIL has 6 DUI's and would not be considered an alcoholic as crazy as that sounds. The way you handle alcohol is generally the way that ends with problems in your life that shortens it. At least that's my observation. My BIL is the only one I know where booze is what actually killed him. Anyone else was an accident, though due to alcohol likely.

People used to drink beer and alcohol because the water quality would make them more sick as their piss and shit was just flowing into water sources. None of us would probably be here without alcohol (not sex, water quality). The key is managing what you drink. I think 1-3 drinks daily, especially spread out is no biggie. Size/w...

Also this shit starts popping up whenever big pharma wants to sell more toxic shit and Americans suddenly fall behind in life expectancy and functioning to peer which drink AND SMOKE much more than their US counterparts. They need something other than their toxic jabs and meds to blame the decline on, so they pay "researchers" to release "studies". Just take drinking and smoking in France vs US and then compare life expectancy.

WookieMan says

Covid has honestly opened pandoras box with the medical field.

This is definitely true. I don't trust any medical mafia studies now that the CDC and FDA and NIH have proven themselves to be horribly and perhaps irredeemably corrupt. They will publish whatever makes the most money for the medical mafia, no matter who it kills.

If you even think about publishing something Pfauci doesn't like, well, then it's "Nice research career you have there, would be a shame if you never got NIH funding again..."

So we are all now forced into regarding the entirely medical field as untrustworthy. We have to go by our own experience, and reason, and knowing for a fact that the motive of medical researchers is to get more funding above all else.

Patrick says

WookieMan says

Covid has honestly opened pandoras box with the medical field.

This is definitely true. I don't trust any medical mafia studies now that the CDC and FDA and NIH have proven themselves to be horribly and perhaps irredeemably corrupt. They will publish whatever makes the most money for the medical mafia, no matter who it kills.

If you even think about publishing something Pfauci doesn't like, well, then it's "Nice research career you have there, would be a shame if you never got NIH funding again..."

So we are all now forced into regarding the entirely medical field as untrustworthy. We have to go by our own experience, and reason, and knowing for a fact that the motive of medical researchers is to get more funding above all else.

Btw. seems this "trend" or MO was tried first with great success on 'climate change' - they moved on to the medical field shortly after. These sciences are much easier to corrupt since they are not as exact as math, physics, or basic chemistry due to their complexity and still rapidly evolving nature.

I mean with a life expectancy plus of 5 years while double the percentage of smoking and double the amount of drinking for France you have to ask youself "cui bono?" from those "studies"

DooDahMan says

WookieMan says

My SIL has 6 DUI's

Does she still have a license to drive ?

Nope. Hence why we took my 10 year old nephew in with us. Frankly it's fucked up. I'm coping with having a 3rd kid, but it's a big change even though it's just one more. It doesn't matter in my world, but he's also black/mixed. Looks black though. Learning quite a few things. Nearing 2 years with him. Good kid though all things considered. Both our families have some fucked up shit going on and my wife and I are the "leaders" so to speak for both families. Both our dad's are dead. Two BIL's dead.

We are solid though. I started drinking too much when my dad was dying. Then the BIL's died (suicide and suicide by alcohol). Grandparents all dead. 2018-2019 I hit a pretty rough patch. Was in real estate with a shit boss. I'm substantially better now. Booze is a demon if you let it control you. I shouldn't drink, but I've been able to manage. No run ins with the law or anything. Not justifying, just giving TMI on an internet forum... lol. Alcohol is a major challenge for some. I've been through it. It's why I've been a dick to people here at times and even my own family.

I'm slowly opening up about it. Helps to vent. Sometimes you find out others have it worse off and makes you appreciate what you have. Don't take anything for granted or you're end up alone and miserable. My wife is the best. I wouldn't be typing this now without her, lets put it that way.

Guy staggers into emergency room with a bloody nose, a black eye, and a broken jaw, wobbles around, reeks of alcohol: "Sir, have you been drinking." Answer: "No, well, just two beers. Some dude snuck up from behind and hit me."
"Do you think you should drink so much?" "Just two beers, it's good for me." The 'just two beers' mantra is so common as to be a joke in itself.

I also have a brother in law and sister in law, heavy smokers, one early 60's and one late 50's, diagnosed with the lung cancer they never thought they'd get, both diagnosed within weeks of each other. SIL has bilateral adenoma cancer, BIL just had lung resection for squamous cell. SIL is receiving some kind of quasi experimental immune therapy, but likely has about a year to live.

Shit doesn't come home to roost usually until you are older and it's too late. Both my parents smoked, and I am glad I never started because I'd probably be smoking to this day.

Certainly, in days of yore, low alcohol beverages were preferable to non-potable water. Ale served as nutrition on long boat voyages, or during long, cold winters. So, who doesn't have access to potable water or nutrition that doesn't involve alcohol these days? It could be possible that the anti-coagulation effect of alcohol could be helpful with people suffering from vaccine coagulopathy, but I doubt that could be proven one way or another, especially with all the rampant medical fraud these days. However, the inflammatory effects of alcohol and aldehydes could exacerbate vaccine related pathology.

People drink for the short term sedation and mild, pleasurable hallucinosis, not because of the promoted 'health benefits'. It's also addicting to various degrees, in varying amounts, depending on susceptibility in individuals. That addiction, whether mild or severe, creates its own justifications.

Ceffer says

"Do you think you should drink so much?" "Just two beers, it's good for me." The 'just two beers' mantra is so common as to be a joke in itself.

Usually lying of course. Rarely are people honest about their consumption which I get is the joke. My rock bottom was 20 beers a day. Not a typo. Not a joke. Not proud of it, will always struggle with it, but I'm in a substantially better place.

For me it was anxiety and being an introvert. Always thought people were judging me. I've learned to give zero shits. Not gonna lie patnet has helped with that. I can say anything to you fuckers and not worry about it. Why not do that in real life? I do now. It's uplifting. Pretty much everyone is broken at some level mentally.

I don't really care if people drink or not, as long as I don't. I'm always around drinking people, and that's fine. I come from drinking people. Just don't try to convince me it is good for mental or physical health, it's just something that people do in spite of.

I hardly ever drink in recent years. Sometimes if I'm out and being social with others who drink I will too. I drank a ton from my early teens to 20s, but I have headache problems now and alcohol tends to make me feel like shit the next day, so I just don't drink often. Just no longer worth the good feeling, and I dont party much anymore. A beer or glass of wine is ok unless I immediately goto sleep, but if I drink a few I feel bad the next day.

My wife drinks, albeit somewhat comically and infrequently. I would never dream of telling her not to, but, then, she never says it is good for her. It's more like when she does it, she pays a price and that price is somewhat worth it to her once in a while.

I drank way more than I should from early college to about my early 30s. I was outgoing, played sports, looked for opportunities to meet new people, was a member of a fraternity at one of the big So Cal UCs.

That all dropped by 90%+ after having kids. I can’t be the dad I should be if I’m drinking enough to result in an irritable hangover. Of course, hangovers come a hell of a lot easier and more intense than they used to.

These days, I may have a couple drinks on a weekend, and not even every weekend.

Once in a while, at social functions like weddings or get together with old friends is the only time I have more than I should. That happens 2-3 times per year now.

Bottom line… there was a time when I wasn’t as busy, had less to lose, and also spent some of my energy pursuing women. I don’t do those things anymore and between work, kids, wife, and investments, I’m stretched and have no room for hangovers unless Im ready to compromise one more more of those things.

Another way to put it is that when I was younger, I was always trying to get into more things… travel, meet new friends, party, take on new hobbies, or spend time with old friends. These days I have WAY too many things to do and look for opportunities to do less because I’m stretched. Alcohol consumption only amplifies the problem when you already have too much on the plate.

Lastly, if I’m at a social function and hosts/friends are having drinks, I will partake. Let’s be honest, being that person that declines social drinks is a buzzkill.