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Electric Cars Are Starting To Make Sense


               
2021 Aug 25, 4:37am   1,572 views  89 comments

by ohomen171   follow (2)  

#electriccarchargingcosts I had a most informative phone conversation with a woman employee of Pacific Gas and Electric yesterday morning. I asked her to explain the current electricity billing plan that we have had since solar power was brought online. I got a most pleasant surprise.
From twelve midnight until 3:00 PM (15:00) we can charge electric cars, run the dishwasher, wash clothes, etc. We are charged 19 cents US per kilowatt-hour of electricity consumed.
I focused on the recent charging of our Tesla Model X that consumed roughly 100-kilowatt hours of electricity. We were able to charge the battery all the way up and give the vehicle a range of 355 miles for a cost of $19.00 US. I pointed out to Elena that if we had a large piston engine, the cost to fill the tank with gasoline (petrol) would have been over $50.00. We are saving $31.00 with each full charge to the Tesla batteries.
Elena has a rare talent for asking brilliant questions and finding holes in arguments. She argued that this electric vehicle was much more expensive than a similar gas-powered vehicle. She asked how long it would take to make up the cost difference.
I accepted her argument at first. I thought about it long and hard. The Tesla Model X started life with a price tag of $160,000 in the US. By the time we bought this car last December, the price had dropped to $75,000 US stripped. The model we bought came in at $100,000 US.
I am quite familiar with the high-end SUVs sold by Cadillac. They are the same size, passenger capacity, and cargo hauling capacity as the Model X. Their prices range from $87,000 US to $100,000 US. There is a piston engine car that is the analog of the Model X. It is far more expensive than the Model X to operate. Electric cars make sense. Please watch the passage of the bipartisan infrastructure bill. I am hearing serious talk of a $12,000 US tax credit when one buys a new electric vehicle.

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1   clambo   2021 Aug 25, 5:21am  

Why should taxpayers subsidize the decision to buy a battery powered car?
2   GreaterNYCDude   2021 Aug 25, 5:56am  

How often do you need to replace the battery? Are there any other maintained costs for an electric vehicle that you would not have for a gasoline powered one (or vice versa) to get a true comparison, look at the total cost of ownership. Purchase price, tax credits, depreciation, fuel (or electric costs), maintance costs, etc.
3   Tenpoundbass   2021 Aug 25, 8:22am  

Three years after the big Tesla boom here in South Florida now we hardly ever see one on the road, unless it's a brand spanking new one, and new Sucker driving it.
They end up in the driveway, and the owners take their other luxury car more than the Tesla.
Funny also how most all Tesla owners, all have a Luxury car besides their Tesla.

90% of all Tesla owners, bought it to keep up appearances, it's nothing more than a status symbol, and they all did mental masturbation gymnastics with the tax break and other subsidies to rationalized buying it.

I don't know one single Tesla owner, that has it as their only car.

I would drive my Kitchen Aide stand mixer if could. At least they come in hot colors.
4   Shaman   2021 Aug 25, 8:53am  

By my calculations…
…it’s time for Elena to get her third jab.
Don’t wanna be one of those dirty unvaxxed people! I know you said she had a really rough time with the second one, but feelings don’t matter. Only the jab matters! Please let us know if she survives this one or if your meal ticket evaporates.
5   FortWayneAsNancyPelosiHaircut   2021 Aug 25, 9:03am  

I think right now hybrids are the best bang for the buck. Electric car are like expensive toys, good way to get stranded on long trips, more of a status symbol.
6   Zak   2021 Aug 25, 9:05am  

I dunno about you guys, but i am 100% in on electric for my next vehicle. I'll keep my gas vehicle for long trips, but I will only use electric around town. I have a 2015 tacoma, and it is getting about 12-14 miles to the gallon when I drive it around. Its $75 to fill up, and 95% of me driving it is back and forth to work or home depot, or the beach. All that is within 25 miles. Plus, no oil changes, transmission worries, smog checks... there are supposedly 400 fewer parts overall.
7   RWSGFY   2021 Aug 25, 9:06am  

GreaterNYCDude says
How often do you need to replace the battery?


Depends. Teslas go well over 300K miles. Crap like Nissan Leaf or VW e-Golf are toast well below 100K. The difference is mainly in cooling: Tesla batteries are liquid-cooled whereas Nissan and VW are not.
8   RWSGFY   2021 Aug 25, 9:21am  

Why the fuck some geezer and his wife need a fucking 3-row minivan? This is what Model X essentially is - fucking minivan down to the kiddie doors (so the little buggers don't ding the shit out of other cars on the parking lot).

Jeebus! Live a little, buy a fucking 911 or a Jaaag. "But I'm saving $20 per fill in my $100K egg-shaped transportation pod".... Fucking shit, dude, people THAT concerned with saving money do not piss them away on $100K (+$10K in sales tax) appliances.
9   FortWayneAsNancyPelosiHaircut   2021 Aug 25, 9:25am  

FuckCCP89 says
eslas go well over 300K miles


How is this provable? I'm asking because I don't know anyone who has even 30k miles on their Tesla yet.
10   RWSGFY   2021 Aug 25, 9:28am  

FortWayneAsNancyPelosiHaircut says
How is this provable? I'm asking because I don't know anyone who has even 30k miles on their Tesla yet.


There is a shuttle service between LA and LV which uses only Teslas. Since 2015 they had racked up way over 300K miles on several cars in their fleet using only superchargers to fill up. The name of the company is Tesloop, iirc.
11   FortWayneAsNancyPelosiHaircut   2021 Aug 25, 9:30am  

FuckCCP89 says
FortWayneAsNancyPelosiHaircut says
How is this provable? I'm asking because I don't know anyone who has even 30k miles on their Tesla yet.


There is a shuttle service between LA and LV which uses only Teslas. Since 2015 they had racked up way over 300K miles on several cars in their fleet using only superchargers to fill up. The name of the company is Tesloop, iirc.


thanks!
12   WookieMan   2021 Aug 25, 9:43am  

FortWayneAsNancyPelosiHaircut says
FuckCCP89 says
eslas go well over 300K miles


How is this provable? I'm asking because I don't know anyone who has even 30k miles on their Tesla yet.

Probably not going to happen anytime soon to hit 300k. To drive that much you'd have to charge constantly. My wife puts on 40k miles a year on her car. Can't do that with a Tesla without losing money and time.

Until you can get a full charge in 5 min and 400 mile range, we're not touching full electric. We like our big cars that guzzle gas. We write it off after all and don't pay for any gas out of pocket ever. Most IC's and employees that travel do this as well. So ICE isn't going away ever probably unless they reform tax laws or destroy the entire oil industry.

Also, it's only about $28-32 to fill up my old Versa. That car cost $9k with 3k miles on it. Teslas still don't and won't make sense to buy until the price drops, range improves and charging times to 100% are substantially lower. Basic math.
13   WookieMan   2021 Aug 25, 10:02am  

FuckCCP89 says
FortWayneAsNancyPelosiHaircut says
How is this provable? I'm asking because I don't know anyone who has even 30k miles on their Tesla yet.


There is a shuttle service between LA and LV which uses only Teslas. Since 2015 they had racked up way over 300K miles on several cars in their fleet using only superchargers to fill up. The name of the company is Tesloop, iirc.

Missed this typing my comment. Likely subsidized by Tesla or they're getting a cut from the service. Or could be an extended warranty on battery. We'd never know. I do know car corps like Toyota will give dealers and partners free cars as a cost of doing business.

Everyone needs to remember that Tesla has priced in subsidies. That's what you do. They build the cars for way less than they claim.
14   rocketjoe79   2021 Aug 25, 10:03am  

Congress was lobbied by the Big 3 to gut the infrastructure bill to exclude Tesla. This will reduce the adoption of electric cars. Big 3 can't compete (Chevy Bolt recall will cost Billions to replace their shitty, fire-prone batteries.) Tesla was EXCLUDED from the Biden administration EV car day. When Psaki was asked why, she said: "We brought the largest UNION car makers in the USA together to promote EV's. Draw your own conclusions about why TESLA wasn't invited." Never mind that TESLA is completely USA-made, while most other "USA MADE" cars are produced in Canada and Mexico.

There are a ton of myths about electric cars that are plain wrong: Watch https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NhMIawaCImo for Real Data
15   Hircus   2021 Aug 25, 10:06am  

I recall when the prius and other hybrids first came out, many people bought them because they got better mileage, even though the upfront cost was higher. I was often critical of their decision because for many of these people, I didn't think the extra upfront cost would pay itself off in gas mileage. Often the more efficient car would cost $5-10k extra than a similar non-hybrid, and 5-10k buys a LOT of gasoline. If car A gets 30mpg, and car B gets 45mpg, it will take a long time before car B accumulates 5-10k in fuel savings. At 12,000 miles per year, car B saves about 135 gallons per year, which is $337 savings per yr at $2.5 per gallon gas (early to mid 2000s CA). That's a 15-30 year payoff on fuel alone, which is very poor.

I agree w/ GreaterNYCDude - you need to do a cost of ownership analysis, and calculate cost of owning and eventually selling the car to account for depreciation. I don't think comparing a Tesla model X to a Cadillac is a good comparison to extol the value of electric - this is an apples to oranges comparison, and its comparing expensive 2 luxury cars, which cloaks the gas vs electric economics. Its easier to compare econoboxes than compare nice cars, because nice cars have lots of additional utility in their looks and luxuries.

Anyway, I do think electric makes sense for certain people, and that number is growing quickly. But not always. For example, Edmunds says a 2021 gas corolla has a lower 5 yr cost of ownership than a 2021 leaf - by a whopping $8k. Plus, I'd much rather drive a corolla than a leaf. Maybe if you drive a ton of miles, and have low or no cost electric charging, the leaf might eek out ahead.
16   RWSGFY   2021 Aug 25, 10:11am  

HunterTits says
And are those cars using the same, original batteries? Where's the data on that?


Some of them, yes. Other did have their batteries replaced. Data? Self-reporting.
17   WookieMan   2021 Aug 25, 10:23am  

If you make good money, the fact is EV's are a waste of time. I can fuel up a Sequoia in 3 minutes and be back on the road. Similar price to certain models of Tesla. I can fit 6 people and tow an 8k payload for 300 miles or so. I get there are different profiles of people for EV's, but they make zero sense in my world. There's not even a discussion with my wife or I about it.

Won't touch EV's until kids are out of the house and that's still not likely. They really don't make sense unless you just drive 20 miles or less to work, and work all the time that you cannot travel.

Regionally I'm also interested to see how they work out long term. Salt in winter climates. Cold. Hot. Etc. The idea of EV's isn't bad, but I think it will still be some time. I am getting a electric golf cart for around town, so I'll get some working knowledge of batteries for vehicles.
18   RWSGFY   2021 Aug 25, 10:24am  

HunterTits says
FuckCCP89 says
Self-reporting.


Where? Show me the data.


Google Tesloop.

PS. IIRC batteries they had replaced failed relatively early in the car's life.
19   Hircus   2021 Aug 25, 10:34am  

Another thing I think about is how right now, they talk about how fragile our grid is, and susceptible to attack. Imagine how much sweeter of a target it will be if 75% of vehicles were electric, with most families only owning electric cars?

It's so easy to take down a power transmission line, or attack other key electric infra, decimating an areas ability to travel.
20   rocketjoe79   2021 Aug 25, 10:40am  

Hircus says
Another thing I think about is how right now, they talk about how fragile our grid is, and susceptible to attack. Imagine how much sweeter of a target it will be if 75% of vehicles were electric, with most families only owning electric cars?

It's so easy to take down a power transmission line, or attack other key electric infra, decimating an areas ability to travel.


If you add Solar and Batteries to most houses, the grid becomes much much more distributed and resilient. Problem solved.
21   WookieMan   2021 Aug 25, 10:53am  

rocketjoe79 says
If you add Solar and Batteries to most houses, the grid becomes much much more distributed and resilient. Problem solved.

Nat gas is better as a backup. Solar is hideous as someone that likes architecture. Hail storms here in the midwest will destroy your array and any insurance would negate the benefits of it. So I can't do solar. Batteries also fail over time, so they're not worth buying.

Just told some sales guys doing door to door to fuck off basically over the weekend. He said I could save $300/mo and I said I piss that hourly. I felt bad after the fact, but it was some 25 year old selling, probably his first job. We live modestly for our income house wise and he thought I would be a sucker probably looking at our home. Have to give him credit as he's the first salesman to breach our gate and pound on my door. Haven't had that happen in 8 years from our previous house.
22   Eric_Holder   2021 Aug 25, 10:56am  

WookieMan says
Just told some sales guys doing door to door to fuck off basically over the weekend. He said I could save $300/mo and I said I piss that hourly. I felt bad after the fact, but it was some 25 year old selling, probably his first job


Don't feel bad for him: some older dude on another forum said his 20-something son is making $20K per month pushing solar door-to-door and "intends to ride that shit until suckers stop coming".
23   RWSGFY   2021 Aug 25, 11:11am  

WookieMan says
If you make good money, the fact is EV's are a waste of time. I can fuel up a Sequoia in 3 minutes and be back on the road.


My BIL used to brag how he covers the distance from his house to ours in 6 hours (not really, more like 6.5). Now he does it in 8-9 and brags how he is drinking beer and watching Netflix while his Tesla is charging. =))
24   komputodo   2021 Aug 25, 11:16am  

WookieMan says
How is this provable? I'm asking because I don't know anyone who has even 30k miles on their Tesla yet.

They projected that mileage using current data......lololol...which will eventually be adjusted down.
25   WookieMan   2021 Aug 25, 11:17am  

FuckCCP89 says
WookieMan says
If you make good money, the fact is EV's are a waste of time. I can fuel up a Sequoia in 3 minutes and be back on the road.


My BIL used to brag how he covers the distance from his house to ours in 6 hours. Now he does it in 8-9 and brags how he is drinking beer and watching Netflix while his Tesla is charging. =))

Not gonna lie, as long as he's responsible, having a couple of beers sounds fun. 2 hours though is not worth a couple beers in my world and maybe, maybe saving 50% on "fuel" for an overpriced car. Time is money.

The math doesn't and hasn't added up on EV's. I want them to work, as I think performance and acceleration could/is amazing. I/we need distance and ease of refueling. If they don't fix recharge time and distances on a charge (both), I'm out.
26   Hircus   2021 Aug 25, 11:18am  

rocketjoe79 says


Hircus says
Another thing I think about is how right now, they talk about how fragile our grid is, and susceptible to attack. Imagine how much sweeter of a target it will be if 75% of vehicles were electric, with most families only owning electric cars?

It's so easy to take down a power transmission line, or attack other key electric infra, decimating an areas ability to travel.


If you add Solar and Batteries to most houses, the grid becomes much much more distributed and resilient. Problem solved.



Ya, batteries are the key. Without them, if most people had solar, they would still need to maintain base load power plants near today's capacity to deal with the occasional heat wave day with clouds, where power demand is high, but power generation suddenly drops off a cliff due to a cloud. My understanding is this is what causes some of the recent CA brownouts - clouds during heat waves. Batteries can buffer some of that power generation volatility for a while.

A home solar system w/ batts is much more expensive though. But, seems to me maybe one day they will just use the batts in everyone's cars.
27   zzyzzx   2021 Aug 25, 11:23am  

ohomen171 says
We are charged 19 cents US per kilowatt-hour of electricity consumed.


At that price I hope that you are generating all or almost all of your electricity.
28   RWSGFY   2021 Aug 25, 11:38am  

zzyzzx says
ohomen171 says
We are charged 19 cents US per kilowatt-hour of electricity consumed.


At that price I hope that you are generating all or almost all of your electricity.


Believe it or not, this is considered cheap in CA.
29   Hircus   2021 Aug 25, 11:46am  

WookieMan says
rocketjoe79 says
If you add Solar and Batteries to most houses, the grid becomes much much more distributed and resilient. Problem solved.

Nat gas is better as a backup.


Local weather permitting, I don't think anything can quite match the energy independence of home solar with batteries. Obviously clouds cut your production 80-90%, and so doesn't work well in some areas. I've heard they have panels that aren't destroyed even in large hail. I imagine polycarbonate sheet, like what they use for greenhouses, would work as a shield, and might be what they use from the factory.

A home w/ solar + batteries is 100% grid independent, long term. No matter what shit show is going on w/ local govt and utilities, you have nice silent energy independence that will not run out, and they cannot "turn you off". Nat gas has been very reliable in recent decades, but the sun is the ultimate. If there is ever a serious nat disaster, or a real pandemic where the gas utility workers refuse to go into work (or are dead), your solar system keeps you running w/ electricity.

I don't have solar yet, but will in the future. I do own a tri-fuel generator, that runs on gasoline, nat gas, and propane, and I stockpile propane. For short term, non-SHTF electricity backup, you cant beat the price and performance of a generator.
30   socal2   2021 Aug 25, 12:53pm  

GreaterNYCDude says
How often do you need to replace the battery? Are there any other maintained costs for an electric vehicle that you would not have for a gasoline powered one (or vice versa) to get a true comparison, look at the total cost of ownership. Purchase price, tax credits, depreciation, fuel (or electric costs), maintance costs, etc.


As others have pointed out, the Tesla battery will last longer than most of the components in the car. I believe Tesla is shooting for a million mile battery.

In terms of maintenance, the only thing to do is rotate tires and replace windshield wiper fluid. No oil changes, no transmission work, brakes last forever since EV's use regen most of the time to stop.
31   komputodo   2021 Aug 25, 12:57pm  

ohomen171 says
Electric Cars Are Starting To Make Sense

How to get the purchase of EVs cars to make sense?...subsidize the purchase cost and registration fees... raise purchase prices and fees on gas fueled cars...maybe create special lanes and parking spaces for EVs. Have social media promote them 24/7 so buyers can earn VS points.
32   Eric_Holder   2021 Aug 25, 12:59pm  

HunterTits says
rocketjoe79 says
If you add Solar and Batteries to most houses, the grid becomes much much more distributed and resilient. Problem solved.


No it doesn't. That extra juice you sell back to the utility? Just gets bled off as heat at the local substation. The grid was not designed at all for it to handle reverse distribution.


Yep, they have a huge problem with solar over-production already. Theoretically, you can size you batteries just right to not need the grid connection at all. There is some Oracle VP guy who did exactly that when faced with $20K bill from P&G for running a line to his house in the mountains off Skyline Blvd. He decided to go fully off-grid and paid ~$300K for a system to power his 2500 sq.f. house. The numbers might be slightly off but they are in the ballpark.

UPD. Found it: https://patrick.net/post/1338203/2021-02-20-what-it-really-takes-to-be-off-the-grid
33   BoomAndBustCycle   2021 Aug 25, 1:00pm  

HunterTits says
First, the high end Caddy is a straw man argument. Nobody HAS to purchase a $75k - $100,000 ICE vehicle. But if you want a Tesla, you do.


Model 3 costs about $40k before tax breaks… find me a car that goes 0-60 in 5 seconds and has 1/4 the tech a model 3 has for less? Seriously, name a similar ICE in that price range that has the capabilities of the Tesla? I’m shopping for a car in the next year so I would like to know!

Anything in the $30-40k range is inferior, if you don’t need a large SUV and have a normal to long commute. I was looking for a car for my wife in that range and Tesla kicks all their butts. Test drove the model 3 recently and it makes all other vehicles in that range feel like dinosaurs.

I honestly feel like they must be losing money on the lowest priced model 3. Or breaking even at best. They make their profit selling EV credits and the from the high end Tesla’s. That’s why a 3 year old Model 3 sells for the same as one that is new. That and you can’t get a model 3 until January now due to chip shortage.
34   Zak   2021 Aug 25, 1:01pm  

Hircus says
It's so easy to take down a power transmission line, or attack other key electric infra, decimating an areas ability to travel.


This is the other great thing.. I can use the solar on my roof to recharge the car while I'm swimming in the pool. Even if the power is out and gas stations can't pump gas!
35   Eric_Holder   2021 Aug 25, 1:02pm  

Zak says
Hircus says
It's so easy to take down a power transmission line, or attack other key electric infra, decimating an areas ability to travel.


This is the other great thing.. I can use the solar on my roof to recharge the car while I'm swimming in the pool. Even if the power is out and gas stations can't pump gas!


Not if CA regulator declares a "flex alert", lol. Tesla's software will shut off charging. And they will if some part of the grid is down, be sure of that.
36   socal2   2021 Aug 25, 1:03pm  

WookieMan says
Probably not going to happen anytime soon to hit 300k. To drive that much you'd have to charge constantly. My wife puts on 40k miles a year on her car. Can't do that with a Tesla without losing money and time.

Until you can get a full charge in 5 min and 400 mile range, we're not touching full electric.


There are already Tesla models with 400+ mile range. Believe you can get 80% charge in 20 minutes at a super charger.

The vast majority of drivers in the US drive less than 30 miles a day, so EV charging is not a problem at all provided you can charge at a home garage. If you have to rely on public charging, I agree that EV's can be inconvenient.

I've been driving an EV for nearly 3 years now and can't imagine ever going back to old fashioned internal combustion engines again. I can't stand driving my wife's new SUV. Even without the gas savings I've been getting by charging at home (@$200 a month for me) the acceleration and deacceleration performance is just night and day and so much more fun to drive compared to ICE cars IMO. I have never driving a car that is faster and more responsive - and I just have a crappy Chevy Bolt which is not nearly as fast as the base Tesla models.

I plan on getting a Model Y first of the year.
37   mell   2021 Aug 25, 1:12pm  

Never liked automatic transmissions. So only convertibles with manual transmission.
38   fdhfoiehfeoi   2021 Aug 25, 1:13pm  

ohomen171 says
There is a piston engine car that is the analog of the Model X. It is far more expensive than the Model X to operate. Electric cars make sense.


So your Tesla is an SUV? The gas mileage on those is pretty terrible, how many miles/kw are you getting? You should especially look at performance at higher mileage, as I've yet to hear of an electric car that's more efficient than a gasoline powered car at 55mph+. What are you repair/maintenance costs for that vehicle? We drive Honda's for the specific reason that we don't want to spend our lives paying for our cars. Lastly, what's the average lifespan of your vehicle? My current one is a 1998, about 160k miles, still running strong.

And I know you didn't mention the environment, but just a reminder that electricity is not produced by sucking up lightening bolts. It's comes from converting fossil fuels, which from a physics perspective means, you will never generate the same amount of energy for the same costs.

Lastly, was your Tesla battery made from blood-cadmium?
39   Eric_Holder   2021 Aug 25, 1:15pm  

BoomAndBustCycle says
find me a car that goes 0-60 in 5 seconds


Funny thing is: I never see anyone doing 0-60 in 5 seconds anywhere. Everybody drives like they have a fucking lawnmower engine in their 4,000 lbs car, taking forever to get up to a speed limit from a stop or traffic light. Same for taking fucking turns: you fucking German-engineered wonder can take that fucking off-ramp @50mph, why the fuck are you crawling it at 20?
40   socal2   2021 Aug 25, 1:55pm  

Eric Holder says
Funny thing is: I never see anyone doing 0-60 in 5 seconds anywhere.


I gun it at every chance I get. The torquey and smooth buttery acceleration NEVER gets old. No waiting for a turbo to wind up or dicking around with gears and transmissions.

No obnoxious engine noise or tire squealing and I can quickly slow down without using friction brakes recouping alot of that energy back into my battery with the electric motor regen.

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