patrick.net

just_passing_through says

It's also much better looking. Most Teslas to me just look like ugly grocery gitters.

Not a truck guy, but I'd take that over a cyber truck.

The problem with the argument of parts on an ICE vehicle is that there's already a system in place. Plenty of auto parts stores. Online ordering of cheap parts. You're almost 99% likely within 10 miles of a gas station outside of the southwest. The infrastructure is established for ICE vehicles and hybrids. Not just gas. Maintenance. People that have worked on your car for 20-40 years in whatever variation.

There are no skilled EV mechanics. That will take 20-30 years. I get being a front runner on new tech, but it's just not worth it. Hybrids are already about 20 years deep time wise. They're fun to drive, I won't dispute that. I just don't see it being the future.

just_passing_through says

With room left for a burger, fries and coke.

Calm down on that unless you're a workout freak. Went out to eat Thursday, not fast food. I'm legit done. I feel like shit after going out to eat. I quit smokes 6 years ago and I think I might quit going out to eat.

I like the fun/atmosphere at most places, but it's generally shit food. Local places, eh, decent BBQ place. I just like homemade fresh food. Hard when traveling, but we still try to cook our own food when we travel.

EV's are the chain restaurants and ICE cars are home cooking... lol.

Back-of-the-envelope relative costs for where I live (bay area):
If an EV goes 3 miles on 1 kWhr and the cost of a kWhr is 40¢ when charging off-peak, it's costing you 3 / 0.4 = 13¢/mile
If a car goes 30 miles on a gallon of gasoline that costs $4.75 (California pricing!), it's costing you 4.75 / 30 = 16¢/mile

Around town, the EV will go farther on a charge and be cheaper; at highway speeds, the ICE will probably pull ahead for cost and distance.

If you want to be cheap, then a Prius might be the winner:
50 miles on a gallon of gasoline that costs $4.75 is 4.75/50 = 9.5¢/mile

The Camry hybrid is probably 12¢/mile. Not bad for a descent-sized vehicle.

I've seen some public chargers around here that are charging 56¢/kWhr for charging. If you doing that for highway road trips where an ICE is most efficient, I'm guessing you fall way behind. If you're charging at 150 kWh rate (adding 225 miles with half an hour of waiting), it's much slower and your are hurting the battery. I'd say that for long road trips, the ICE is cheaper, way more convenient, and you're not hurting your $10,000 battery.

Another thing about road trips... if you're driving your EV at 70 MPH but stopping for 1/2 an hour every 3 hours, you're really only averaging 70x30 / (3 + 0.5) = 60 MPH. Drop the speeds to 60 and you'll gain some MPG in your ICE.

SunnyvaleCA says

If you're charging at 150 kWh rate (adding 225 miles with half an hour of waiting), it's much slower and your are hurting the battery.

The math is per hour in my opinion. 30 minutes at a charger costs me about $150 regardless of the electric even if it's free. Still haven't factored in the higher cost of the car. I'd lose massive amounts of money driving an EV. Talking $50-75k and then the interest on that if I were to invest it.

It's a fast car that makes people feel cool. I like money and time. Not getting that with an EV. It's only a $$$ suck. You EV cats will eventually get it.

WookieMan says

30 minutes at a charger costs me about $150 regardless of the electric even if it's free

Depending on your usage patterns, an electric car that you plug in at night in your garage might save you more time than taking your ICE car to the gas station. But yeah, 1/2 pit stops during road trips would be a drag. Could be longer if you have to wait for someone else to use the charger first.

SunnyvaleCA says

Depending on your usage patterns, an electric car that you plug in at night in your garage might save you more time than taking your ICE car to the gas station.

I get that, but it's not about usage patterns for me. I don't have a consistent driving schedule. I'm rural so we're putting 30k+ per year on cars. It's not practical in flyover country for non-city dwellers with kids. It's a big city car or California where there are a ton of chargers.

All full EV's are DINK car owners. They're not practical if you have kids that have activities. Basically it's people with dual incomes living in urban settings. Or empty nesters. Which is fine, pay more for a fun to drive car. I've yet to know anyone with kids that bought a Tesla or any EV.

If I were to drive west from my house, there's no charging for 60 miles that wouldn't cause a 20-30min detour and that's not accounting for the charge time if I have to go to it. It's why my kids go crazy when they see a Tesla. It's like seeing bigfoot. You don't see them where I'm at because there's not enough range if I have three 100lbs boys smashed in the back, the wife, and my 220lbs ass (tall not fat) driving to go very far.

Once I leave home even if I fully charged I'd have immediate range anxiety with the payload of people I could barely fit I'm hauling around and the distances. There's at least 30 gas stations within 20 miles from me. 2 in my own town. Only one has a charger it's out of the way of any direction I'd go usually. I have an electric golf cart. As simple as it is, I don't want to plug it in every night after using it. Last thing I want to do when I get home.

I'd rather have a beer, write a novel on patnet or go to bed and not have range anxiety for the next day and plug it in. No value or utility in EV's and I probably speak for 100M people nationwide the will never get one. Factor in kids and EV's are hitting market saturation. If they are good cars (longevity), sales will plummet in a big way.

Another thought. If EV's are the future and Dems want to be green, what car does Biden ride around in? Hell all of congress. Assuming this is accurate, basically no one. https://www.eenews.net/articles/here-are-the-lawmakers-who-drive-evs/

100 Senators and 435 House members. 13 supposedly drive them. Given the age of these people it's likely they don't have kids living at home. So why doesn't the Democrat side have at least 200 EV's? Only 12? One republican broke ranks.

They have the pay to afford one on a single salary and their insider trading. You'd think they'd all be driving EV's if they're so worried about CO2. Government can't push this shit and not back it up. Classic rules for thee not for me.

WookieMan says

There are no skilled EV mechanics. That will take 20-30 years.

There is little to no maintenance required other than body work for wrecks. No oil changes, transmission or brake work. Batteries on early model Teslas are lasting a long time and will be 100 recycled.

Will be a huge disrupter to alot of fields. No wonder there are so many people against it.

Need more nuke plants for sure if we are serious.

UkraineIsTotallyFucked says

socal2 says

Most of those 46% who want to switch aren't driving Teslas.

So fucking what?

1) This isn't the Tesla Fluffer Thread.
2) You have no proof of that. You just made it up.

Tesla has the industry's highest loyalty and retention rate.

Trust me, once you drive a Tesla - you are not going back to drive a primitive ICE cars let alone downgrading to an inferior EV brand.

https://cleantechnica.com/2024/04/11/tesla-leading-in-auto-brand-loyalty/#:~:text=Brand%20Retention%20Rates%3A%20Tesla%20Takes,Toyota%20lags%20behind%20at%2054%25.

SunnyvaleCA says

Back-of-the-envelope relative costs for where I live (bay area):
If an EV goes 3 miles on 1 kWhr and the cost of a kWhr is 40¢ when charging off-peak, it's costing you 3 / 0.4 = 13¢/mile
If a car goes 30 miles on a gallon of gasoline that costs $4.75 (California pricing!), it's costing you 4.75 / 30 = 16¢/mile

Man - you guys get raped on your electric rates! PG&E doesn't offer any kind of EV plan?

socal2 says

Man - you guys get raped on your electric rates! PG&E doesn't offer any kind of EV plan?

The earthquake happened dude. The Tsunami is coming. You will pay more for an EV car in the near future. I don't see repeat buyers. You're going to get taxed. As gas prices drop, no one will want an EV. Tesla and the likes will have to raise prices to cover the cost of production.

You're in the heyday of a failing endeavor. The math doesn't work without $500B in nuke investment at minimum. That raises everyone's rates and everyone doesn't want an EV as gas prices drop. I seriously want it to work. I just don't want another burden tossed at our feet. This has to be a massively slow roll out with responsibility.

EV is a roller coaster on its initial climb to start the ride. It should have been a slow train ride. We just don't have the tracks to make it work in the near term. It's math and infrastructure. You can't maintain roads without money. EV's WILL get even more expensive. Screen shot this post or whatever. Taxes are a coming.

Nuclear is now "green" so all is good... no worries.
Branding is everything.

socal2 says

Man - you guys get raped on your electric rates! PG&E doesn't offer any kind of EV plan?

PGE EV-B rates:
Total Energy Rates ($ per kWh) PEAK PART-PEAK OFF-PEAK
Summer Usage $0.73169 (I) $0.48758 (I) $0.37503 (I)
Winter Usage $0.54909 (I) $0.41708 (I) $0.34535 (I)

You know, PGE paid a lot to California wildfires. This rates should reflect those payments!

I am not against EV but there is another problem with EV (at least in my case) that for inconsistent driving needs (a lot or nothing), I always end up using charge point even though, I can get almost free ;) out of my excess generation from SP that otherwise goes to grid and get almost nothing in return.

socal2 says

I don't have to wait in a long Costco line to fill up every week either like I do with my wife's car

You are so silly. It's a false choice to have to choose between refueling at Costco versus charging an EV at home.

Today (June 23, 2024) I purchased gasoline for my plug in Prius at Platinum Gas on Tully Road in San Jose for $4.059 per gallon. And I didn't make a special trip to Platinum Gas. I was passing by on my way home from somewhere else. No line of cars, because it wasn't Costco. Could've charged it at home for $0.45 per kwhr. Got 57 mpg on that fillup at $4.059 per gallon. You do the math.

Silly Socal.

WookieMan says

Taxes are a coming.

I already pay high registration fees for my EV in California so those costs have already been baked in the cake. My power company (SDG&E) just locked in my new rates for the next half decade so I will continue to save over $200/month driving a comparable car.

B.A.C.A.H. says

Could've charged it at home for $0.45 per kwhr. Got 57 mpg on that fillup at $4.059 per gallon. You do the math.

Silly Socal.

I have done the math.

My charging costs are about 75% cheaper than yours. Gas is really expensive in San Diego County since we are so far from the refineries.

socal2 says

Trust me, once you drive a Tesla - you are not going back to drive a primitive ICE cars let alone downgrading to an inferior EV brand.

I disagree. I've driven a Tesla, but decided to buy different brands of EV, and I also keep an ICE car. I have a Leaf (OK car, not fancy, but super cheap to own and operate), and a Mustang EV (Very nice to drive car, with nicer fit/finish than a Tesla and a proper instrument cluster, but kinda expensive). I dont think Teslas are magic in any way, but I DO think Tesla as a company, and Elon Musk have done a lot of innovation in this field and should be credited with making the product class viable.

My PGE rates have been increased significantly, and now I pay 36 cents per kwh, which is reducing the fuel savings a lot. Still less than gas, but not enough less to write home about. Actually the PGE rates are really punishing to California EV owners now, and I expect this will reduce demand in CA. This is because of transmission line maintenance and fire settlements... it has little to do with electricity production costs, its just that PGE defrays these grid costs on a per kwh basis so those of us who drive EV pay a disproportionate share of grid upkeep. For people who don't have PGE super high rates, the savings will be much more compelling. But I do get the HOV stickers which are a valuable subsidy.

For those of us paying 36 cents per kwh and $5 per gallon gas, a Prius is probably similar operating cost to my Leaf and cheaper than my mustang EV. For people who have better (15 c/kwh) electric rates, an EVs will easily beat a Prius for operating cost.

DeficitHawk says

This is because of transmission line maintenance and fire settlements... it has little to do with electricity production costs

Not in Alameda County, which only uses PG&E for transmission. They buy their juice from Wind/Solar bullshit sources and the rates are soaring. LCOE is point blank financial fraud and should be prosecuted as such.

UkraineIsTotallyFucked says

Not in Alameda County, which only uses PG&E for transmission. They buy their juice from Wind/Solar bullshit sources and the rates are soaring

Im in alameda county, but I don't understand this comment. PGE publishes its wholesale energy acquisition costs, but those costs are typically 5 cents or less per kwh. The other 30 cents per kwh I have to pay are all transmission maintenance, fire damages, and institutional bloat I assume.

socal2 says

WookieMan says

Taxes are a coming.

I already pay high registration fees for my EV in California so those costs have already been baked in the cake.

They haven't yet. I'm talking motor fuel tax that all ICE cars pay. Your state is actively talking about charging EV's per mile driven, posted before https://www.nbcbayarea.com/news/local/california-gas-tax-drivers-charge-miles/3544491/#:~:text=of%20miles%20driven.-,Gas%20tax%20revenues%20are%20starting%20to%20dry%20up%20with%20the,about%203%20cents%20per%20mile.

This is just the tip of the iceberg. They cannot pass this on to ICE vehicles, that will never work as they already pay MFT. Depending on distances driven it's likely $6-12/wk. It's just a "test" but you know damn well it will become law in your state and many others.

We need roads regardless of how green a state wants to be. Not talking about drivers. The roads have to be paid for and you're getting a free ride right now and it will come to an end. I know this business and how government operates more than anyone on this forum. Your cost of ownership/charging WILL go up.

What once looked good not paying for gas is going to be more expensive factoring in the price of the car. If you enjoy driving it I won't shit on any EV owner. I'm just letting you know it's not cheaper and will be more expensive than an ICE vehicle shortly to operate. It's not an if, it's when.

DeficitHawk says

I disagree. I've driven a Tesla, but decided to buy different brands of EV, and I also keep an ICE car. I have a Leaf (OK car, not fancy, but super cheap to own and operate), and a Mustang EV (Very nice to drive car, with nicer fit/finish than a Tesla and a proper instrument cluster, but kinda expensive). I dont think Teslas are magic in any way, but I DO think Tesla as a company, and Elon Musk have done a lot of innovation in this field and should be credited with making the product class viable.

Fair enough - there are a couple decent EV's beside Tesla, but none of those companies are sustainable. Ford loses $100K on every Mustang EV they sell even after incentives.
https://www.motor1.com/news/719482/ford-losing-100000-per-ev/#:~:text=In%20fact%2C%20the%20Model%20e,three%20months%20of%20the%20year.

Rivian is losing over $30K for every truck they sell.
https://jalopnik.com/rivian-loses-33k-on-every-truck-it-sells-report-1850899055

Meanwhile, Tesla is making twice the industry average gross margin compared to companies that make cheaper ICE cars.

What Tesla has done in terms of scaling and efficiencies is remarkable.

socal2 says

Meanwhile, Tesla is making twice the industry average gross margin compared to companies that make cheaper ICE cars.

What Tesla has done in terms of scaling and efficiencies is remarkable.

While not wrong, a hybrid>EV. More utility. No range anxiety. I have no interest in either. I want a V8 that fits 7-8 people. I give no shits about gas prices. Not a knock on EV drivers, I'm just not a child anymore. Gas prices are inconsequential until they hit $10-15 for me. I'm not paying $10-50k more for a car that doesn't perform what I need it to. I'll pay $15-20k in gas before the EV is paid off in 5 years.

WookieMan says

While not wrong, a hybrid>EV. More utility. No range anxiety. I have no interest in either. I want a V8 that fits 7-8 people.

Different strokes for different folks. I have a few cars so I can have an EV for local use, and a gasser jeep for my far flung adventures. For trips within the EV range, I always prefer to drive the EV. I think they are more pleasant to drive, and I never have to stop for gas in it. Hybrids like the new Prius are likely a good option for some families (especially 1 car families).. but I don't have any use case where I'd choose a Prius instead of the pure EV or pure Gas cars I already have. For short range I will always choose the pure EV. for long range, I will always choose the big gasser. On average, I put more miles on EVs than Gas, but I drive whichever one I prefer for the task at hand. Some people insist that long distance by EV is fine, and its OK to stop at quick chargers, but I dont like to do this because it breaks up my drives at intervals that are not convenient for me. I'll only use public chargers in an emergency.

So for me, EVs are for local, Gas for distance. 2 car families can have a short range cheap EV for local errands, and a gasser (Truck/minivan/SUV) for anything the EV cant do. That's a great arrangement and lots of people will find the EV gets driven more miles than the gasser like we did.

WookieMan says

I give no shits about gas prices. Not a knock on EV drivers, I'm just not a child anymore. Gas prices are inconsequential until they hit $10-15 for me.

I will always live like an impoverished grad student. Its engrained in my behavior. Even if I can afford the gas, I just wont pass up savings opportunity if it exists :-) But, alas, in PGE territory, there isnt much savings opportunity anymore.socal2 says

Fair enough - there are a couple decent EV's beside Tesla, but none of those companies are sustainable. Ford loses $100K on every Mustang EV they sell even after incentives.

Yes, this is probably true. But so did tesla for years and years. Every company has to figure this out and will operate at a loss until they optimize production and scale up. Other companies will figure this out too but it will take time. Ford is still learning. No shame in taking a loss while learning how do do something new.

DeficitHawk says

I will always live like an impoverished grad student. Its engrained in my behavior. Even if I can afford the gas, I just wont pass up savings opportunity if it exists :-)

I don't disagree with this mentality. I max out everything I can savings wise. Between electric and the price of the car it takes usually 3-5 years to break even versus an ICE vehicle. I'd prefer to invest the money and pay for gas which is readily available with no wait time pretty much anywhere.

I literally have no chargers within 20 miles of me. So if I were to have low power I'd be screwed. All the Tesla owners I know have run out of juice multiple times because of the charging hassle. Might be their fault. I've only ran out of gas once as a dumb ass teenager. Walked across the road and a neighbor had gas they just gave me. I'd be fucked in an EV. Would need a tow.

DeficitHawk says

Yes, this is probably true. But so did tesla for years and years. Every company has to figure this out and will operate at a loss until they optimize production and scale up. Other companies will figure this out too but it will take time. Ford is still learning. No shame in taking a loss while learning how do do something new.

I dunno - the other OEM's trying to make EV's (especially Rivian) are burning through way more cash at a much higher rate than Tesla did at the early stage.



Plus - all the other OEM's are saddled with decades of debt, outdated factories and massive pension liabilities. Tesla has state of the art factories with little CAPEX debt and no massive legacy workforce pension liability.

socal2 says

I dunno - the other OEM's trying to make EV's (especially Rivian) are burning through way more cash at a much higher rate than Tesla did at the early stage.

They were kind of told to by the government is the problem. Tesla has done a solid job, not shitting on it. OEM's are trying to ramp up something they shouldn't be doing. Gas ain't going away. They should be hyper focused on hybrids. Daily commuter where you can get 50-60 miles and then rely on gas if needed.

I actually have no issue with EV's besides the cost and people saying it's cheaper and "green" which pissed me off the most. Fun car to drive. Just don't bull shit people. It's more expensive to drive for sure. No one EVER factors in the cost of the car the the years of gas you could get driving a Civic or Corolla. Basically the same car just not as zippy.

WookieMan says

I actually have no issue with EV's besides the cost and people saying it's cheaper and "green" which pissed me off the most.

You know I don't care about "Green" - but it's true for me and alot of Tesla drivers I know that we are saving money on fuel and maintenance.

Again, I am comparing my Tesla Model Y to an equivalent BMW or Mercedes and not basic trim Nissan or Hyundai sedan.

Tesla was simply the most powerful and luxurious car I could personally afford. I spend alot of time driving (not towing) and the enjoyment, ease and safety of driving a Tesla is worth every penny IMO.

socal2 says

WookieMan says

I actually have no issue with EV's besides the cost and people saying it's cheaper and "green" which pissed me off the most.

You know I don't care about "Green" - but it's true for me and alot of Tesla drivers I know that we are saving money on fuel and maintenance.

Again, I am comparing my Tesla Model Y to an equivalent BMW or Mercedes and not basic trim Nissan or Hyundai sedan.

Tesla was simply the most powerful and luxurious car I could personally afford. I spend alot of time driving (not towing) and the enjoyment, ease and safety of driving a Tesla is worth every penny IMO.

Insurance is a killer though. Easily 2x for similarly priced non-Tesla car. At least this is what I get when I run "what if" scenarios on my ins co website.

Eric Holder says

Insurance is a killer though. Easily 2x for similarly priced non-Tesla car. At least this is what I get when I run "what if" scenarios on my ins co website.

Insurance is more expensive for sure, but not enough to eclipse the savings I have on gas and maintenance. I typically save over $250/month on gas according to my Tesla app which uses my local electricity and fuel rates to calculate. That doesn't include the cost savings for 2-3 oil changes a year and brake work (we go through brake pads quickly as we have a big hill to get out of our neighborhood).

So I say I save about $200/month factoring in everything including more expensive insurance.

socal2 says

You know I don't care about "Green" - but it's true for me and alot of Tesla drivers I know that we are saving money on fuel and maintenance.

You aren't and won't has been my point. I get you don't want a Nissan or Hyundai. For the same size weight and cubic footage, the other models are exponentially cheaper. You're not factoring in the cost of a Tesla or other high end EV's. It's 5 years of gas dude. Not trying to be a dick, but this isn't rocket science.

If I pay even $10k more for a car that's on average 5 years worth of gas. You don't get any return for 5 years and likely are paying the electric for it. In 5 years I could turn $10k into $20k and so could others. It's a bad investment that is fun to drive.

WookieMan says

You aren't and won't has been my point.

You think I don't know how to manage my checkbook or I am just lying to you all?

Another factor I may have already mentioned is that I get a car allowance for work. So I have no incentive to own a car as my monthly auto allowance get taxed and/or reduced after 3 years or about 40,000 miles. I drive customers and senior management around and can't be driving a 5+ YO beater.

So I lease and keep my monthly payments to a bare minimum and my monthly car allowance covers my lease, insurance and charging costs.......with some money left over if I billed more than 500 miles a month for work travel.

socal2 says

You think I don't know how to manage my checkbook or I am just lying to you all?

Kind of just admitted you lied here dude. You don't pay for your car. Which is fine. My wife doesn't either.

And a 5+ year old beater is on the owner. Take care of it. For a 12 year old car you'd have no problem riding in mine. Driver seat is messed up, but everything else is pristine. Good on you for not having to pay for a car and telling people that do that yours is superior.

I take no issue with you dude. I'd buy a Tesla in a second. I'm just not a car guy. 40k miles in three years is child's play. Honestly you're lucky that you can do that. Enjoy it. EV's are not cheaper though is my point and always has been. You can't erase $10-40K. Let me know if someone offered you $10k in gas if you'd take it? You would. That easily 3-5 years depending on the size of car. That's the difference between EV's and ICE. It's math. People gonna get their money either way.

Back to the title of this thread though... Is it more expensive to buy gas or electricity for a car?

From my experience, 1 gallon of gas is about equivalent to 10kWh, on the basis of moving a similarly sized car a similar distance.

So the math is pretty simple. How much do you pay for electricity per kWh? multiply that 10 and compare to the price of a gallon of gas. Thats it. Thats the answer to the question in this thread. All the other analysis is rage bait and personal preference.

For me, a gallon of gas is $5.00, and 10 kWh from PG&E is $3.60. So that's the answer.

DeficitHawk says

Back to the title of this thread though... Is it more expensive to buy gas or electricity for a car?

From my experience, 1 gallon of gas is about equivalent to 10kWh, on the basis of moving a similarly sized car a similar distance.

So the math is pretty simple. How much do you pay for electricity per kWh? multiply that 10 and compare to the price of a gallon of gas. Thats it. Thats the answer to the question in this thread. All the other analysis is rage bait and personal preference.

For me, a gallon of gas is $5.00, and 10 kWh from PG&E is $3.60. So that's the answer.

For me, gas is around $4.15-4.30 per gallon now and PG&E is $.43-.46 per kWh. Throw in the higher registration fees and insurance cost and where are the savings? In not needing oil changes? That's $40 once a year and 20 minutes of easy work.

Eric Holder says

For me, gas is around $4.15-4.30 per gallon now and PG&E is $.43-.46 per kWh. Throw in the higher registration fees and insurance cost and where are the savings? In not needing oil changes? That's $40 once a year and 20 minutes of easy work.

It's a California car. Gas is $3.60 here currently. CA has super high gas prices notoriously. Probably works well in Florida too. You get into hilly areas and EV's are useless.

I couldn't get stranded here in IL when it hits 7ºF for a high and overnight low of -15ºF like happened to a ton of IL Tesla owners this past winter. I'm not buying a sedan and/or paying $10-20k more for a similar model hybrid. I give no shits about 0-60 times or a fucking iPad for controls.

Outside of an engine failure or transmission, ICE cars are easy and cheap to repair. EV's still need AC and heat components. Your battery actually dies and you're $10-20k deep instead of $120. I don't have to go to a Tesla mechanic, I can go anywhere. I really still don't understand the point outside of they're fun to drive. That's not how I view cars. EV's are not cheaper and I give no fucks about CO2. It's makes trees and green stuff grow. EV drivers are starving the trees.

Eric Holder says

For me, gas is around $4.15-4.30 per gallon now and PG&E is $.43-.46 per kWh. Throw in the higher registration fees and insurance cost and where are the savings? In not needing oil changes? That's $40 once a year and 20 minutes of easy work.

Again - you guys are getting raped on your electricity rates in NorCal. Even with high California gas rates, the math won't pencil out at $.46 kWh when just looking at pure energy savings. One of my coworkers in Oregon with a Model Y pays something like $.03/kWH at night when he charges.

Finally, what are you comparing a Tesla to in terms of overall costs comparison? At minimum, you should compare it to a mid-level trim BMW in terms of performance and quality. Right out of the gate, comparable BWM's cost more than mid-range Teslas (even before the Government incentive). And there is more to maintenance than just oil changes on ICE cars.

Teslas is the least expensive car to maintain over a 10 year period.
https://www.consumerreports.org/cars/car-maintenance/the-cost-of-car-ownership-a1854979198/

WookieMan says

You get into hilly areas and EV's are useless.

Huh? EV's are an absolute fucking blast when it comes to hills. It is probably the #1 reason I first got an EV (Chevy Bolt) in the first place wanting the extra power to get around my hilly area. I absolutely love seeing my battery add miles of charge coming down the big hill in my neighborhood instead of smoking my friction brakes.

So basically, like real estate, EV savings are local. It's nice to know some guy in OR pays $0.03 per kWh, but when it's $0.35-0.46 in your neck of the woods it is what it is.

socal2 says

Finally, what are you comparing a Tesla to in terms of overall costs comparison? At minimum, you should compare it to a mid-level trim BMW in terms of performance and quality. Right out of the gate, comparable BWM's cost more than mid-range Teslas (even before the Government incentive). And there is more to maintenance than just oil changes on ICE cars.

I've been in Teslas. Had one parked in my driveway a couple weeks back. It's not a luxury car. Also, apples and oranges. Model Y is NOT an SUV by any stretch either but I'll compare it with a real hybrid SUV.





I can get a bigger car. Be as efficient using gas. That $16,160 price difference is 7-10 years of gas on a hybrid. That's not factoring in the cost of charging a Tesla. ICE vehicles maybe are $500/yr to maintain. I'll pay for gas and invest the other money and come out on top 10 out of 10 times. This really shouldn't be a debate.

You're either doing it because you like to drive it or a greenie. It's 100% not cheaper than an ICE hybrid.

Side note. I wouldn't even qualify for the tax credit. So I'd pay full price for a Tesla.

Enjoy my tax money.... Enjoy your road paid for by ICE cars that you need to drive your free riding EV on. This is why people think EV drivers are pompous ass holes. Killing trees. Damaging the roads. Burdening the electric grid. Mining minerals unethically to drive around in an overpriced golf cart. Winning as Charlie Sheen would say.