patrick.net

zzyzzx says

If you lived in Minnesota would you be just as happy with your EV's?

Hells no. Everyone practically has some towable toy (boat, snowmobile, flatbed trailer, camper) in MN. I rarely see a Tesla where I live in IL outside of Chicago and the collar suburbs. Just came back from Miami and I saw flocks of Teslas everywhere. They simply make zero sense in 90% of America outside of warmer coastal areas and major cities.

And yes, that's most of America. You're going to have an impossible time convincing fly over country, beside Texas, that EV's are a good idea. They're an awful idea north of I-80 specifically besides the Pacific Northwest and that's just the coastal area.

I get they're popular in certain areas. They simply just don't work in most land areas of America if you're being practical and drive more than 100 miles. I'm not sitting at a charging station for damn near a half hour. I can pump 24 gallons in under 3 minutes. Might be two if it's a good gas station. I can then go 400 miles and not even think about where the next gas station is. We drive way more than you Coastal boys. 30-50k miles per year on each car. We'd live at charging stations and the EV's have no utility. That's the life in flyover country.

Blue says

You need those savings to buy your next battery.

I'm leasing as I get a car allowance for work and we can't keep cars beyond 3 years per company policy.

Meanwhile, I am driving the equivalent of a Porsche in terms of fun and performance for the cost of a Hyundai.

Also, with few exceptions - the Tesla batteries are holding up just fine with the older models (going on 10 years now) with minimal degradation and they expect over a million miles on average with the current models.

WookieMan says

They simply just don't work in most land areas of America if you're being practical and drive more than 100 miles. I'm not sitting at a charging station for damn near a half hour.

The average person in the US drives about 35 miles a day. Even in cold climates and towing something, that is less than 20% of the battery.

I just did a road trip from San Diego to Phoenix in my Tesla Model Y over the holidays and had to stop twice for about 12 minutes of charging each way. Just enough time to stretch my legs and take a piss. I could have chosen to stop only once and do a longer 25 minute charge - but we typically stop twice on this trip anyway.

If you can't charge at home or you are in the extreme minority that is road tripping across the country towing stuff all the time - than an EV is not practical. But for 90%+ of the US population, the Tesla's totally meet our driving needs without any hassle.

socal2 says

Also, with few exceptions - the Tesla batteries are holding up just fine with the older models (going on 10 years now) with minimal degradation and they expect over a million miles on average with the current models.

The batteries are fine. They will last 1M miles. 98% of Tesla drivers won't hit 100-150k miles though. It's an impossible feat to guarantee unlike diesel engines. Any semi batteries pulling a trailer will be from port/rail hub to warehouse within 50 miles. So don't bring that up. Cross country ain't happening.

There would be train engines already if it would work since the weight of the batteries could easily be handled with existing infrastructure. EV's cannot pull weigh efficiently. So sedans and small SUV's is all we'll likely see in our lifetime for full blown EV's. Ride a four person golf cart alone and then toss the other three people on. Then do the same with a gas golf cart. Don't need to be an engineer to figure it out.

Enjoy them for your short trips in a sedan that will get smashed in an accident. I'll take a truck or similar sized SUV with an ICE 10 out of 10 times. I don't need or want speed. I need utility. Not 1 non-hybrid EV provides that. I foresee Tesla sales dropping significantly in the coming years. They're reaching market saturation where no one needs/wants one. They'll likely have some trade in program to initiate future sales. I'd personally get out of any Tesla stock position soon, but I hate making predictions. Hybrids are where it's at. You still need gas in most parts of the country.

And I'm not trying to be aggressive. I just think people that are fans don't understand the reality of other people's lives and tout EV's as being the future. They're not and won't be.

socal2 says

extreme minority that is road tripping across the country towing stuff all the time

Not making fun. Some CA people are extremely naive about how the rest of the country lives. Not saying you specifically. Which EV can tow 9k lbs gross like my Armada can and still get 300 miles? For that reason EV's are a non-starter here in the midwest. We're nice people, but you'd be mocked out of your Tesla here in IL, WI, MN, etc.

We can also go significant times without power here. They simply don't make sense for most of the American land mass. Sincerely not trying to be a dick. EV's have their use, I like driving them. They're just not practical for most of the country as far as land mass goes if that makes sense. And I have no interest in living in or near a city. I like my camper. I need my trailer. And EV's are no where near checking those boxes.

WookieMan says

Not making fun. Some CA people are extremely naive about how the rest of the country lives. Not saying you specifically. Which EV can tow 9k lbs gross like my Armada can and still get 300 miles? For that reason EV's are a non-starter here in the midwest.

I was born and raised in the Midwest and our family never had to tow anything in our lives. We were far from poor, but never had toys like boats or campers to tow around. I'd wager that over 90% of the driving public in the US never tows anything.

Again - if your specific needs require frequent towing hundreds of miles, an EV is not for you at this stage. But the current Tesla line-up totally meets the needs of majority drivers.......other than the high price tag.

WookieMan says

Enjoy them for your short trips in a sedan that will get smashed in an accident.

Did you see the Tesla that was purposefully driven off the cliff on PCH last week where everyone survived? The Tesla is literally the safest rated car in human history. And since the vast majority of US drivers do nothing but short trips 99% of their time - good EV's like Tesla's totally fit the bill. It was a total joy to drive to Phoenix letting Autopilot handle 95% of the drive so I could enjoy the scenery and surf the web on the infotainment system.
https://www.notateslaapp.com/news/956/tesla-model-y-receives-top-safety-score-of-any-vehicle-ever-tested-video

socal2 says

I was born and raised in the Midwest and our family never had to tow anything in our lives.

Not rural. Or you didn't notice or are older than me by 20 years. Again, not knocking EV's. I walk 2-4 miles M-F around my town. I'm down basically every street. Not one Leaf, Tesla, etc. ~800 homes. There's easily 800 trailers, campers, etc. WI and MN it's even crazier.

I've driven Teslas. They're nice. It's hitting market saturation though without increased range for most of the country or the utility. That's fact.

And I'll completely disagree on safety. That is totally relative to the situation. My wife and kids would be dead when she got rear ended by a loaded box truck at 45mph and she was stopped. It totaled a Toyota Sequoia and she and kids didn't have an injury. That's not happening in any model Tesla. I was at the scene. No Tesla would have survived. 100%.

I'm not knocking Teslas but this isn't an argument. It's math and physics. Every Tesla in my scenario above would be toast.

EVs are the perfect globalist vehicle. Just enough range to get you back and forth from your job, not enough range or power to take you on vacation outside of your metro area. If you anger them, they can just cut you off from charging.

PeopleUnited says

My car was paid off in 2012. Gas is the least of your concerns when you are sitting on a depreciating asset. My gas guzzler will still be running in 20 years with minimal maintenance. Not sure I could say the same with an EV that is 40 years old. Plus, in cold climates the EV lose range and power faster than you can say carbon footprint.

Carbon footprint. 😂

socal2 says

But for 90%+ of the US population, the Tesla's totally meet our driving needs without any hassle.

Do 90% of the US population live in houses and not apartments (I actually do not know the stats)? An electric car is great if you have a home where you can install a Level 2 charger. If you live in an apartment with no Level 2 capability, you are limited to charging a Tesla soley at superchargers, which will greatly shorten the battery life. If you buy a Chevy Bolt (which I think is marketed toward apartment dwellers without home Level 2 access) it has circuitry to save the battery at L3 sites by limiting the charge power. That means 1.5 to 2 hours per stop to charge the Bolt on long trips. For around town, the Bolt would need 2 hours to charge for every 230 miles or so.

Blue says

socal2 says

I am saving about $200/month in gas over the last year. I only use the Super Chargers if on a road trip and have to pay for it. I charge at home 98% of the time and it costs me $8 to fill up.

You need those savings to buy your next battery.

Or trade it in every 8 years and don’t have to worry about it. That’s what I would do if I didn’t promise to give my S away once I pick up my Cybertruck

zzyzzx says

Eman says

Very well said DeficitHawk. It’s ironic the folks, who are negative about EV, don’t own an EV.

We have 2 EV’s and no gas car. Wife’s car charges about twice a week at home during off-peak. I get free charge for life and also charge about twice a week. Plug it in, go for a walk or jog, or shopping. Come back and 87-95% charged most of the time.

Most siblings also own 1-2 EV. It works for us. The experience has been great in the last 5+ years.

If you lived in Minnesota would you be just as happy with your EV's?

I wouldn’t know as I have never lived in a cold climate. However, I believe one the the cars would be a hybrid if I lived in a cold climate.

HeadSet says

Do 90% of the US population live in houses and not apartments (I actually do not know the stats)? An electric car is great if you have a home where you can install a Level 2 charger. If you live in an apartment with no Level 2 capability, you are limited to charging a Tesla soley at superchargers, which will greatly shorten the battery life. If you buy a Chevy Bolt (which I think is marketed toward apartment dwellers without home Level 2 access) it has circuitry to save the battery at L3 sites by limiting the charge power. That means 1.5 to 2 hours per stop to charge the Bolt on long trips. For around town, the Bolt would need 2 hours to charge for every 230 miles or so.

You are right - having a place to charge is definitely optimal if you want an EV. Not sure the percent of drivers that have access to home charging - maybe 60%?. I drive over a thousand miles a month and charge the Tesla about 2-3 times a week in my garage overnight.

I leased a Chevy Bolt for 3 years before I got my Tesla. The thing was a fun little hot hatch and perfect for my 50 mile roundtrip work commute, but terrible on road trips. Not only was the Bolt smaller, less comfortable with less storage than the Tesla, it took 3-4X as long to charge on unreliable non-Tesla super chargers. I took the family to Vegas in the Bolt once and it added about 90 minutes to our trip. Never again.

When we took the Tesla to Phoenix last month, we made it in the same amount of time it normally takes us in my wife's ICE car. But I was much more relaxed and rested in the Tesla letting autopilot do most of the driving with a smoother and more comfortable ride. We packed 4 roller bags, 4 backpacks, large cooler and a couple bags of groceries and Christmas presents and still had more room for storage and didn't use the frunk.

I don't know if all states have it, but here in IL we have MFT (motor fuel tax) as a percentage of gas pumped in your tank. They will come after EV's in the future. While they're not huge, they still cause wear and tear on infrastructure. This is an exaggeration, but say 20-30% of the population got EV's. That's a massive blow to that tax, yet there's more cars using the roads and not paying for it.

It's the wild west in that regards. They could easily do an extra EV tax as a line item on your electric bill to where the car is registered, milage tracking or even the creep GPS tracking method. Enjoy it now, but if you have those taxes for ICE vehicles, they're coming for EV's. If they do it as a percentage of electric bill, it could be more expensive to drive than gas as it would be based on whole home electric use. Or they make you install an EV charging meter.

I think EV's are fun to drive, but at some point on per mile basis the government will try to make EV's roughly the equivalent cost of a ICE "fuel" up. It actually could end up being more depending on how your state decides to tax it: https://www.pewtrusts.org/en/research-and-analysis/blogs/stateline/2022/10/10/as-electric-vehicles-shrink-gas-tax-revenue-more-states-may-tax-mileage

Fact is you cannot use the roads and basically pay little to nothing to use them. There is no bridge fairy, they have to be maintained. Roads don't repave themselves. All cars basically have GPS in them if bought in the last decade including all Teslas. I'd be getting a hybrid with an ICE if I needed to buy today and not full EV. My extra 2¢ novel on the topic. Greenies/Liberals will fight it, but the road building lobby is massively Conservative/Right leaning. We shall see, but methinks this prediction is coming soon to all states. EV's are going to be a case of liberal policies shooting themselves in the foot I think.

WookieMan says

Fact is you cannot use the roads and basically pay little to nothing to use them.

All roads outside of neighborhoods will become toll roads with all cars having a version of the automatic "EasyPass" to trip the charges.

I know the Hipsters will call me a Liar for saying so as they find some convoluted way to explain off their PG&E rate plan how their at home charging doesn't cost them.

Even if they don't have rooftop solar. Maybe even positive cash flow for them to charge their EV if they have rooftop solar, they'll argue. How the solar didn't cost them a thing to install (those are financed even if it's not called "financed"). They are soo smart, soo savvy, sooo Bay Area Silicon Valley Smug smarter and better than all the rest of us podunk folks.

Whatever.

My Prius prime gets 55 mpg in pure gasoline mode. I paid $3.799 this week for gasoline in San Jose. About 7 cents per mile.

According to the website, my Prius Prime will consume 0.25 kw-hr to travel one mile. Paid my PG&E bill last week, average cost was $0.40 per kwhr. This roughs out to 10 cents per mile, about 40% higher cost than gasoline.

And NO, I will not save $ with some kind of other "EV-charging-at-home" plan which sets punitively high rates for when not charging the EV. And this is for a small (sh*tbox) home with modest electricity use (no AC, no electric kitchen appliances, no electric heating, no using the clothes dryer except when it rains). And NO, I WILL NOT upload my PG&E bill to prove it. If you don't believe me, whatever.

We do get free charging at the workplace, which we use as often as we can get a charger (you gotta get up early in the morning to beat the others for that privilege!), but I don't think that factoid is an honest reply to your question.

I wonder about the 25 miles per 100 kw-hr benchmark. Is it true all the time, - like even in the cold weather?

Patrick says

the one on the bottom is cheaper, bigger profits. Seen this too many fucking times. And when you call them out on it, they spasm screaming "this is DIVERSITY you bigots".

B.A.C.A.H. says

My Prius prime gets 55 mpg in pure gasoline mode. I paid $3.799 this week for gasoline in San Jose. About 7 cents per mile.

Hybrids are the way to go. EV's are fun to drive for sure, but subsidies will stop and I don't know why anyone in their right might would pay $50k+ for a sedan or small SUV. Electric rates/charges will go up for EV cars registered to your house. Get a Honda or Toyota sedan and you're $25k in the green out the door. Over the life of an EV, you're not going to get that money back and you'll still need to charge it at your house for sure.

Even with high gas now, it's really not that bad. Both have tires and brakes. Wheel bearings. I've never heard of a modern ICE engine shitting out if you take care of it. Maybe cheap things like an alternator or starter, but it's not complicated with sealed transmission and most part easily making it 200k miles.

B.A.C.A.H. says

My Prius prime gets 55 mpg in pure gasoline mode. I paid $3.799 this week for gasoline in San Jose. About 7 cents per mile.
According to the website, my Prius Prime will consume 0.25 kw-hr to travel one mile. Paid my PG&E bill last week, average cost was $0.40 per kwhr. This roughs out to 10 cents per mile, about 40% higher cost than gasoline.
And NO, I will not save $ with some kind of other "EV-charging-at-home" plan which sets punitively high rates for when not charging the EV.

That was a pretty epic rant; hard to argue with anything you said. I'm afraid to look at my electric bill this month as I'm sure I'll be hitting that $.40 per kwhr (not a net positive solar producer during the winter). Pretty wild that EV-2A rate schedule is $.55 per kwHr PEAK (4-9pm). Yeah, no thanks. The California Dream is over (hello NEM-3 !). Irony is that folks with cheap electric rates ($.15 per kwhr) would do well (or at least better) with an EV.
That said, I'm California poor and may try to cash in on the $4k used EV federal tax credit. Just gotta find a dealer...

B.A.C.A.H. says

My Prius prime gets 55 mpg in pure gasoline mode. I paid $3.799 this week for gasoline in San Jose. About 7 cents per mile.

I don't have solar, but have the EV plan with SDG&E and pay $.14 kwh during super off-peak when I charge overnight. I get about 3.3 - 3.8 miles per kilowatt. So about 4 cents a mile.

Hybrids are great bridge vehicle to transition, but they are way more complex to build and maintain compared to a straight-up BEV. Obviously batteries are still massively expensive, but EV's have way less moving parts and components to wear out. No transmissions, oil changes, brake jobs etc....

Tesla continues to do amazing things driving down the price of batteries and getting more range. Imagine where we will be in another 10 years?

We don't need the government forcing this. EV adoption will happen on its own through market forces as EV's truly become superior in every way.

socal2 says

I don't have solar, but have the EV plan with SDG&E and pay $.14 kwh during super off-peak when I charge overnight. I get about 3.3 - 3.8 miles per kilowatt. So about 4 cents a mile.

Oh my! 81 cents per kwHr peak during the summer.


https://www.sdge.com/residential/pricing-plans/about-our-pricing-plans/electric-vehicle-plans

EBGuy says

Oh my! 81 cents per kwHr peak during the summer.

Thank God I don't have (or need) AC. I would be broke! As it is, I am always chasing after my kids turning off lights during On-Peak times. Ceiling fans running all night is not too bad.

We get the Super Off-Peak rate through 2:00PM on the weekends so we do all of our laundry on the weekends. We run the dishwasher at midnight too.

Since I went with this plan, my consumption went up over 20% but my bill went down a few bucks taking advantage of the lower rates at night.

EBGuy says

socal2 says

Oh my! 81 cents per kwHr peak during the summer.

May god bless you, if there is any ;)

socal2 says

Obviously batteries are still massively expensive, but EV's have way less moving parts and components to wear out. No transmissions, oil changes, brake jobs etc....

Engine and transmission can last 1/4 million miles and 20+ years, especially without government mpg regulation forcing manufacturers into small displacement turbos. No lithium battery can last 20+ years. Brake jobs are necessary on BEV's every year due to rust/sticking thanks to lack of use. "Less moving" is not a good thing when it comes to brakes. The heavy weight of massive battery wears out tires and suspension components faster, and especially wears out public roads fast, which requires asphalt and concrete to repave, both of which generate enormous amount of CO2 in production. What the heck are the refineries supposed to do with gasoline as byproduct in the production of asphalt, synthetic rubber and plastic? Making Molotov Cocktails?

Reality says

No lithium battery can last 20+ years.

We will see. The original Model S's on the road now are about 10 years old and I am not seeing a bunch of reports of major battery degradation yet.

True about the weight of the car and impact on infrastructure. That will get better over time with less batteries/weight as they improve drive train efficiency and energy density. Tesla already uses less batteries than most other EV's in the market and gets better range.

DeficitHawk says

I think people who own a home and have a garage where they can charge, and who also own more than one car for the family (so the other car can be a gas car) can make good use of electric cars.

This is spot on. I appreciate your thoughtful post. You are 100% correct that electric vehicles can make an excellent 2nd vehicle in a large number of households. They can make a great vehicle in a bunch of other circumstances, too.

Unfortunately, electric cars have become a yet another political hot topic. The over-eager government (and certain types of people) pushing electrics are actually creating stubborn resistance. Jumpstarting an industry to get above a point of sufficient quantity can be a useful strategy, but I don't think electric cars need so much push that a whole bunch of people have a bad experience.

About to become more expensive to charge the EV.

EV Charging Station SPACs go SPLAT!

https://wolfstreet.com/2023/11/17/the-collapse-of-ev-charger-spacs-chargepoint-ceo-sacked-cfo-out-revenues-plunge-losses-mount-shares-96-from-peak-evgo-not-far-behind/

PumpingRedheads says

About to become more expensive to charge the EV.

EV Charging Station SPACs go SPLAT!

https://wolfstreet.com/2023/11/17/the-collapse-of-ev-charger-spacs-chargepoint-ceo-sacked-cfo-out-revenues-plunge-losses-mount-shares-96-from-peak-evgo-not-far-behind/

Chargepoint is a fucking joke: their shitty chargers are just 6kW, which means it takes fucking hours to add any meaningful range.

Reality says

Brake jobs are necessary on BEV's every year due to rust/sticking thanks to lack of use.

I'm not sure about lack of use part: I once was at a stoplight next to a ModelX and noticed that the front brake rotor had a very pronounced ridge around the edge, meaning they were at least 1-2mm down from the original thickness. Now, this is not unusual for ICE cars and on average happens after 50-80K miles (depending on the pad compaund), but having this much wear doesn't really fit with the "EVs don't use brakes at all" narrative. Of course that ModelX could've had 400K miles on the clock - we'll never know.

Eric Holder says

Chargepoint is a fucking joke: their shitty chargers are just 6kW, which means it takes fucking hours to add any meaningfu

Most of them are. Especially public (government) bathrooms...er, chargers.

Happy Juneteenth EV Fluffers!

Demand Power Charges Are the Achilles Heel of a Nationwide EV Fast Charging Network

Factors that impact DCFC profitability include low utilization percentages (due to the high percentage of home charging and that EVs represent less than 1% of the total US vehicle fleet)….and also high operating costs from demand power charges. Demand power is typically the highest electricity usage during a 15 minute period in a billing cycle and utilities charge a premium for it. By measuring spikes in power demand and charging a higher fee to supply it, a utility is better prepared to deliver electricity under all power demand scenarios and be able to afford to invest in the infrastructure to do so. The cost of demand power at my office location is $3.41 per kW….which is 22 times more than the overall cost of electricity.

The challenges for achieving DCFC profitability might be one reason this country’s largest EV manufacturer fired their entire 500 member charging team. Perhaps it was discovered that this division was an important drain on profitability, and why Wall Street does not appear to recognize its robust charging system as an important source of future profitability.

The cost to construct, operate, and maintain a DCFC station is significantly higher than for a gasoline station. If DCFC stations cannot be operated profitably, what does it mean for the viability of the transition to an electric vehicle world that many are aspiring for.

https://www.realclearenergy.org/articles/2024/06/18/demand_power_chargesthe_achilles_heel_of_a_nationwide_ev_fast_charging_network_1038939.html

For reference: https://www.ampcontrol.io/post/the-ugly-truth-of-demand-charges-and-how-to-save-money

Most people charge at home at night when the car is not in use and the electricity rates are the lowest.

It costs me about $8.00 to fill up my battery each week charging at home. It costs my wife $70 a week filling up her Hyundai at Costco and we drive the same amount of miles.

@socal2 what’s your 1kwh price and battery capacity in kWh units, how many miles does it give per charge, what’s your ice mi/gal
Mine take 100h on regular wall socket which draws about 12A on s3 plaid. Mostly use charge point.

@Blue - I pay $0.13/kWh for Super Off Peak (midnight to 6AM) and (midnight to 2PM on weekends).

My battery is 81kWh and I plug into my existing dryer outlet in the garage which is 220V at 30 amps. So I get about 22 miles/hour hour charge. I typically charge 2 nights a week to stay in the super off peak times keeping the battery between 20 and 80% full.

@socal2, your $.13/KWh makes a big difference, good for you. Down here, pge charges $.42-48 depending on the tier. I have a feeling, can go up even more soon. In terms of the price EVs are not super economical down here. But this doesn’t stop super enthusiasts around who get free charging at work. Based on what I know most places offer 7kw (I read 6 on display, because of the load) for 4 hours max. One has to run around to pull in and out to avoid fines. At best it helps 10 to 20 miles per charge. One has to look for the next 4 hr slot. Most likely one ends up stick around 10 to 12 hr to get two charges. I guess, it’s good for the employer!

socal2 says

It costs my wife $70 a week filling up her Hyundai at Costco and we drive the same amount of miles.

And what was the price difference between the cars? Is it similar sized to your Tesla? $70/wk is kind of a lot for any Hyundai that I know of unless driving 800 miles a week which is unlikely in most scenarios.

I drive a V8 Armada, so shitty gas mileage and I don't even spend $70/wk living 20 miles from the nearest big stores or things I need to do/get. Wife drives a 4 Runner and goes to the gym every morning 20 miles each way and then drives her territories of IL and Wisconsin. I think she even struggles to get $70/wk and she drives a lot more than most.

I don't know if it's a CA thing with gas prices, but in IL ICE is substantially cheaper than an EV based on price alone. I can fuel up for 5 years here before any model of Tesla is a break even. Don't have to charge every night or at work. I can go a week and take 3 minutes to fuel up one time. I know there's a gas station near if running low. There are zero chargers where I'm at.

Not an EV hater as I've driven them before. The economics of them doesn't make sense. This is one of those CA centric things in my opinion and it looks like they're gonna tax you cats as I've been saying. You don't get to use the roads for free. You will be paying more per mile than an ICE vehicle on top of the higher purchase price soon.

I know the green push has nothing to do with your driving a Tesla. You like it. Which is fine. I need to tow 200-350 miles. No EV is remotely close to doing that and I'm talking 3-5k gross weight. Nothing extreme.

I am on a trip to Maryland, DC areas. I get gas for $3.25 at Costco! Still see EVs around. I’d suspect that they might have bought them for non economical reasons like fun, lifestyle etc.

Blue says

socal2, your $.13/KWh makes a big difference, good for you. Down here, pge charges $.42-48 depending on the tier. I have a feeling, can go up even more soon.

I would not recommend getting an EV if you can't charge at home. It's doable to rely on Tesla Superchargers, but it takes away one of the greatest conveniences of driving EV's. California just changed electric rates statewide that screws new solar homes, but locks in and even lowers my hourly rates. I have SDG&E and they have an "EV plan" where they charge higher rates during the day and give you lower rates at night.

I did the math 6 years ago when I got my first EV (Chevy Bolt) and the math worked for me in terms of gas and maintenance savings.

WookieMan says

And what was the price difference between the cars? Is it similar sized to your Tesla? $70/wk is kind of a lot for any Hyundai that I know of unless driving 800 miles a week which is unlikely in most scenarios.

A mid range Hyundai Santa Fe is $38K. Premium Santa Fe's run as high as $51K in SoCal. A new Model Y is $45K.......but there is also a $7,500 federal subsidy that brings the price down to $37,500.

Then I get over $200/month in gas/maintenance savings. The cheapest gas I can get at Costco is $4.55/gallon.

So even without the $7,500 Federal subsidy, the cost of owning/operating a Tesla is less than a mid-range Hyundai after 3 years.

I get it that you are constantly towing and an EV won't work for you, but the MAJORITY of drivers will never tow a thing in their entire lives.

socal2 says

Most people charge at home at night when the car is not in use and the electricity rates are the lowest.

Marie Antionette 'Let them eat cake'.

Most ppl in California are renters.

Of course, my post wasn't even about that. It was about DCFC profitability.

But as usual, socal2 engages in red herrings, whataboutisms and non-sequitors when he doesn't like where the subject is going.