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Which is more expensive: charging an electric vehicle or fueling a car with gas?


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2021 Oct 23, 11:41am   25,696 views  211 comments

by RWSGFY   ➕follow (4)   💰tip   ignore  


Last year, Patrick Anderson went electric: He got a Porsche Taycan EV in dark blue.
Anderson, who is CEO of East Lansing-based economic consulting firm Anderson Economic Group, loves the zippy acceleration and "exciting" features the car offers. He also gets satisfaction in knowing that driving an EV benefits the environment, he said. 

But Anderson's joy comes with a dark side.
"They are a wonderful driving experience. But at the same time, they're an enormous burden in time and in energy in finding chargers and getting them charged," Anderson said. "And you’re not really saving much in terms of charging costs ... you may be paying more.”

Costs to drive an EV compared with a gasoline car are detailed in a report Anderson Economic released Thursday called "Comparison: Real World Cost of Fueling EVs and ICE Vehicles."
The study has four major findings:
There are four additional costs to powering EVs beyond electricity: cost of a home charger, commercial charging, the EV tax and "deadhead" miles.
For now, EVs cost more to power than gasoline costs to fuel an internal combustion car that gets reasonable gas mileage. 
Charging costs vary more widely than gasoline prices. 
There are significant time costs to finding reliable public chargers – even then a charger could take 30 minutes to go from 20% to an 80% charge.

Anderson has worked with the auto industry for 20 years and given the industry's transition to EVs, the group decided to do the studies to assess the likelihood consumer will adopt the cars.

...

"Part of the strength of the analysis is we’re showing the real-world costs that EV drivers face," Anderson said. "You typically have to go to a commercial charger and commercial charger rates are two, three or four times that of residential charger rates."

Then, there are the "deadhead miles" car owners spend driving around trying to find a commercial charger. Even charging at home on a Level 1 or Level 2 charger is time consuming and expensive. 

...

Anderson's report considers four costs beyond the cost of residential electricity when calculating how much it costs to drive an EV: 

- Cost of the residential charger
- Cost of commercial electricity
- An annual EV tax
- Deadhead miles to get to a fast charger

Given all of that, the conclusion is EVs cost more to "fuel" than gasoline cars that get reasonable gas mileage, Anderson said. It all depends on how the car is used and how much commercial charging is involved. 

A mid-priced internal combustion car that gets 33 miles per gallon would cost $8.58 in overall costs to drive 100 miles at $2.81 a gallon, the study found. But a mid-priced EV, such as Chevrolet Bolt, Nissan Leaf or a Tesla Model 3, would cost $12.95 to drive 100 miles in terms of costs that include recharging the vehicle using mostly a commercial charger.
On a yearly basis, assuming the mid-priced cars traveled 12,000 miles, it would cost  $1,030 to drive an internal combustion car and $1,554 to drive an EV. 
For luxury cars that get 26 miles per gallon and use premium gas at $3.25 a gallon, the cost to drive an internal combustion car 100 miles is $12.60. The cost to drive a luxury EV, such as a Taycan, Tesla Model S or X or Jaguar I-Pace, is $15.52 to travel 100 miles. That is using mostly commercial chargers. 
“That’s apples to apples and includes the extra EV taxes, the commercial charging and the home charging and the allowance of driving to a gas station, which, for most Americans, is very short compared to driving to a commercial charger for an EV owner," Anderson said.

The study differs from some reports that show it's cheaper to drive an EV than a conventional car. For example, a 2018 study from the University of Michigan's Transportation Research Institute found the average cost to operate an EV in the U.S. was $485 per year compared with a gasoline-powered vehicle at $1,117. Anderson said most studies include only the cost of residential electricity and don't factor in the four other costs that this study does.

...

Charging costs vary much more for EVs than gasoline prices, too, by 100% or more from month-to-month or week-to-week, Anderson said. 
"Even if you drive to the most expensive gas station, your varying price won’t be as great as that," he said.

“That’s going to be a big surprise to a lot of drivers," Anderson said, adding that many commercial chargers will also require the EV driver to enroll and sometimes pay a $20 fee, but that might be reimbursed with charging.
Also, don't plan on ever having a 100% charge on your EV, he said. 
"It’s very difficult to charge it up to 100%," Anderson said. "The chargers slow down and the manufacturers warn you not to do it because there is additional burden on the battery system when you get your vehicle above a 90% charge.”

That means if the vehicle advertises a range of 240 miles on a full charge, a driver in reality will get considerably less on, say, an 80% charge, he said.
For new EV drivers these costs, time constraints and other considerations are often a surprise, Anderson said.
“Unlike their reliable gas cars that have 300 or 400 miles of range that can be filled up at a number of gas stations in our country, you have to think about what available chargers you have and plan it out," Anderson said. "It’s more than range anxiety, it’s a burden of constantly monitoring the charging status.”
The Anderson report lists about two dozen sources in its research, which relied on consumer experiences and costs for drivers that go beyond government data on fuel economy and electricity prices. Anderson said it did stopwatch measurements of the time required to refuel gasoline cars and EVs, recorded customer experiences on reliability of chargers, charging time and costs. It used consumer reports from actual EV drivers, including those posted on forums for Taycan and Tesla drivers, Reddit and applications serving EV drivers such as PlugShare and ChargePoint.


https://apple.news/AAlPx0L7ZRPikqoXmgfQntg

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122   SoTex   2024 Jun 21, 8:55am  

I've been looking at the Ford F150 powerboost. It's a V6 twin turbo with an electric motor in between the engine and the 10 speed transmission. It's also basically a rolling generator with a 3.6 (upgradeable to 7.2) KW inverter. You can crank the AC in a large 3rd wheel for a 3 day weekend and burn 1/3 to 2/3 a tank of gas and it's quiet. It's also way more efficient than the tri-fuel generator I bought last year and only ever so slightly less efficient than a good diesel generator.

Over 600 mile range. 430HP, aluminum body and over 500ft/lbs of torque.

I'm only waiting to hear about the 2025 models before I buy. Rumor is it'll come with a 50KW battery (instead of the small one it has now) that will give it an electric only range of 30 miles in best case conditions.

I can easily putter back and forth to my aging parents house on electric only to check in on them. The build I'm considering is a wee bit over $85K MSRP but I know a place that will sell it to me for 4% below invoice. I think it might qualify for the Federal subsidy (with the larger battery) and they do allow incentive stacking without any BS. This place basically doesn't even have a service center, their business model is to move trucks as fast as possible with the lowest overhead possible.

I think PHEV is the near future vs. fully electric. I think Teslas are numero uno with respect to electric but aren't built very well.

Speaking of shitty builds RAM is out with a PHEV with over 600HP but it's an all electric drive train and they have a jeep V6 onboard as a generator. Again, with a range over 600 miles. But I would never buy a Stellantis vehicle. Rumor is they are fucking up builds on purpose to have an excuse to move production out of the US entirely. Either way they are pieces of shits. Much like my 90s jeep was.
123   socal2   2024 Jun 21, 9:26am  

UkraineIsTotallyFucked says

Of course, my post wasn't even about that. It was about DCFC profitability.


Don't believe anyone is arguing that you can save money on fuel/electricity if you have to rely exclusively on DCFC. The Tesla Supercharging prices in California are about the same as a gallon of gas. I only use them for pure convenience or on a long road trip. Over 98% of my charging is done at home.
124   socal2   2024 Jun 21, 9:29am  

just_passing_through says

I think PHEV is the near future vs. fully electric.


PHEV's are twice as complex and super expensive. Why bother with a hybrid when you still have to do all the maintenance on a gas engine, oil changes, transmissions and brakes?

The other OEM's simply did not invest in batteries like Tesla has and are stuck with the worst of both worlds.
125   DemocratsAreTotallyFucked   2024 Jun 21, 10:26am  

socal2 says

money on fuel/electricity if you have to rely exclusively on DCFC. The Tesla Supercharging prices in California are about the same as a gallon of gas. I only use them for pure convenience or on a long road trip. Over 98% of my charging is done at home.


AGAIN...you can't keep on subject.

That has nothing to do with the profitability of DCFC charging stations. Nothing.


126   socal2   2024 Jun 21, 11:21am  

UkraineIsTotallyFucked says

AGAIN...you can't keep on subject.

That has nothing to do with the profitability of DCFC charging stations. Nothing.


WTF are you talking about?

The thread subject is: *Which is more expensive: charging an electric vehicle or fueling a car with gas?*

I am sharing 6 years of personal experience where I am saving over $200 month on fuel driving an EV and charging at home.
127   DemocratsAreTotallyFucked   2024 Jun 21, 11:23am  

socal2 says


WTF are you talking about?

The thread subject is: *Which is more expensive: charging an electric vehicle or fueling a car with gas?*

I am sharing 6 years of personal experience where I am saving over $200 month on fuel driving an EV and charging at home.


Amazing.
128   socal2   2024 Jun 21, 11:32am  

UkraineIsTotallyFucked says

socal2 says



WTF are you talking about?

The thread subject is: *Which is more expensive: charging an electric vehicle or fueling a car with gas?*

I am sharing 6 years of personal experience where I am saving over $200 month on fuel driving an EV and charging at home.


Amazing.


It HAS been amazing driving my Tesla these past years.

So much power, enjoyment and cost savings!
129   DemocratsAreTotallyFucked   2024 Jun 21, 11:36am  

socal2 says


HAS been amazing driving my Tesla these past years.

So much power, enjoyment and cost savings!


So fucking what, Marie Antionette? Totally off topic. Again.
131   socal2   2024 Jun 21, 1:19pm  

The_Deplorable says






Yeah - that is absurd.

Should have just given the money to Tesla to continue to build out the Supercharger network.

Just like the government should have given Elon Musk money to increase Starlink for rural internet access instead of spending Billions on Fiber Optic.
https://twitter.com/JesseBWatters/status/1803583502174028210
132   DemocratsAreTotallyFucked   2024 Jun 21, 3:16pm  

socal2 says

Should have just given the money to Tesla to continue to build out the Supercharger network.


With what team? (Then again, why do I bother. You didn't read this the first time)

UkraineIsTotallyFucked says

The challenges for achieving DCFC profitability might be one reason this country’s largest EV manufacturer fired their entire 500 member charging team. Perhaps it was discovered that this division was an important drain on profitability, and why Wall Street does not appear to recognize its robust charging system as an important source of future profitability.
133   DemocratsAreTotallyFucked   2024 Jun 21, 3:18pm  

socal2 says

Just like the government should have given Elon Musk money to increase Starlink for rural internet access instead of spending Billions on Fiber Optic.


What fiber optic? They built out some. A fraction of what is needed.
134   FortwayeAsFuckJoeBiden   2024 Jun 21, 3:27pm  

socal2 says

The_Deplorable says







Yeah - that is absurd.

Should have just given the money to Tesla to continue to build out the Supercharger network.

Just like the government should have given Elon Musk money to increase Starlink for rural internet access instead of spending Billions on Fiber Optic.
https://twitter.com/JesseBWatters/status/1803583502174028210


you think they are incompetent? no, they are intentionally stealing your tax dollars my man. those billions made someone’s business partner very rich.
135   socal2   2024 Jun 21, 4:16pm  

UkraineIsTotallyFucked says

The challenges for achieving DCFC profitability might be one reason this country’s largest EV manufacturer fired their entire 500 member charging team. Perhaps it was discovered that this division was an important drain on profitability, and why Wall Street does not appear to recognize its robust charging system as an important source of future profitability.


Those 500 got fired with the big 10% cut they did across the board a few weeks ago. They are not abandoning Superchargers, they hired some of the key people back already.

Tesla has never played-up charging revenue from their Supercharger network as anything major in their P&L. It was always understood that it was the price to pay if they were going to mainstream Tesla's and allow for long roadtrips during the early adoption phase.

Since Tesla has DOUBLE the gross margin compared to the rest of the auto industry, Tesla could afford to provide this awesome service as part of the luxury and convenience of driving a Tesla.

As Tesla scales more batteries for onsite storage at Supercharger stations, they can bring their cost of energy down by filling up the batteries at night and selling during peak times. Tesla chargers have also become the standard for Ford, GM, Honda, Mercedes, Volvo, BMW, Hyundai.......where they will be charged a premium to access the Supercharger network which will help with utilization and peak costs.

I've never had to wait on a charge for a Supercharger site. The navigation on the screen tells you the number of stalls open in real time. They have plenty of capacity as more EV's (of all brands) hit the road.
137   DemocratsAreTotallyFucked   2024 Jun 21, 5:07pm  

socal2 says

Tesla has never played-up charging revenue from their Supercharger network as anything major in their P&L


Yes. That is why the article I posted said:

Perhaps it was discovered that this division was an important drain on profitability, and why Wall Street does not appear to recognize its robust charging system as an important source of future profitability.

socal2 says

I've never had to wait on a charge for a Supercharger site


SOO WHAT? Has nothing to do with the profitability of them, which is the topic. Just more Tesla Fluffing on your part.
138   komputodo   2024 Jun 22, 8:09am  

RWSGFY says

Which is more expensive: charging an electric vehicle or fueling a car with gas?

Why does it even matter. The inconvenience of the short range and having to looks for charging stations and all the other problems associated with EVs cancels out the gasoline savings if there really is any.
139   komputodo   2024 Jun 22, 8:10am  

socal2 says

I've never had to wait on a charge for a Supercharger site.

Me neither because I drive an ICE car
140   socal2   2024 Jun 22, 9:59am  

komputodo says

I've never had to wait on a charge for a Supercharger site.

Me neither because I drive an ICE car


I don't have to wait in a long Costco line to fill up every week either like I do with my wife's car. I just plug it when I pull into the garage.

Couldn't be easier or more convenient.
141   socal2   2024 Jun 22, 10:00am  

Most of those 46% who want to switch aren't driving Teslas.

Other than maybe Rivian, all the other EV's suck.
142   DemocratsAreTotallyFucked   2024 Jun 22, 10:07am  

socal2 says

Most of those 46% who want to switch aren't driving Teslas.


So fucking what?

1) This isn't the Tesla Fluffer Thread.
2) You have no proof of that. You just made it up.
143   WookieMan   2024 Jun 22, 10:53am  

socal2 says

I've never had to wait on a charge for a Supercharger site. The navigation on the screen tells you the number of stalls open in real time. They have plenty of capacity as more EV's (of all brands) hit the road.

In CA sure. Not the case in most states. Argonne National Laboratories in IL had charging for employees (free) and took their system out due to costs. I personally know an employee there. She's since had her Tesla die on her multiple times and now had to have the electrician come out and install home charging wiring. The car has become a hassle for her.

It's tougher in different states and climate with electric. As I've mention I have a lithium battery golf cart. My charger for that alone was $200. Cheaper Chinese battery was $1,300. I've looked at Tesla chargers for home and quality stuff is over $500. This isn't a dig, but most Tesla owners don't know anything about properly wiring to the panel. 6 gauge wire and 50amp breaker is another $500 easy. If you have to put it in pipe/conduit and the labor thats $1-2k. Assuming financed you're 6 months in the hole just to charge at home. That's not including electric or the cost of the car being higher.

It works in CA. Temperate climate so you're not running the AC every time you drive losing milage. It doesn't work well in at least half the country. The CT deliveries and hype will keep them afloat. But Tesla could go under in 3-5 years with market saturation. I hate predictions, but I'm just not seeing it. Anyone that bought any non-CT model will keep it for a long time. There's a majority of the population that has no interest in charging a car for 30 minutes on a road trip. That's undeniable. The business plan is to dump and run. Hence why Elon is asking for his $56B or whatever it is (agreed to). He knows the ship is sinking and so do the shareholders.

Space X will be his legacy. Tesla will go under. Someone will likely come in and buy up the debt/stocks and keep it going. This is what Musk does. I actually like him, but until you understand his business model people don't get it. Your Tesla will likely be bricked in the next 5 years to generate revenue. Some software update. This is the future. He's following Apple, just with cars.
144   SoTex   2024 Jun 22, 11:07am  

socal2 says


PHEV's are twice as complex and super expensive. Why bother with a hybrid when you still have to do all the maintenance on a gas engine, oil changes, transmissions and brakes?


Because it's a much better built vehicle not to mention a land yacht that is a rolling generator. It's almost as fast as most teslas. That twin turbo v6 engine is in it's 3rd generation and very reliable. I can do a long road trip and won't have to stop and charge ever.

And I don't have to charge! Although I would if they made it a PHEV and those generally take ~11hrs from a 120 so no problem overnight.

Teslas need a lot of repairs and there aren't a lot of places that can work on them. What are you going to do with that expensive battery in 10 years? My guess it won't just be the cost of replacement and labor but soon pricey disposal fees.

You need to add that into the cost of owning it.

It's also much better looking. Most Teslas to me just look like ugly grocery gitters.


145   WookieMan   2024 Jun 22, 11:15am  

UkraineIsTotallyFucked says

socal2 says

Most of those 46% who want to switch aren't driving Teslas.

So fucking what?

1) This isn't the Tesla Fluffer Thread.
2) You have no proof of that. You just made it up.

Say those 46% got any EV. You get brown outs and power outages across the country. We don't have the capacity for EV's remotely either way. The greentards want solar and wind. We need nukes if this will ever work. I bitch about EV's for multiple reasons, but this is #1. #2 is price. #3 is getting the materials for batteries. #4 is charging locations outside of CA.

We need a massive infrastructure build out of electric production. It's not happening. Nukes take 5 years to build. We need probably 20 more nuke sites. Hydro is problematic because of environmental "stuff." Solar and wind need storage when they're not producing which is massively expensive.

I don't see a future for EV's without massive nuke build out. Otherwise it's coal and that defeats the point of going EV if you give a shit about CO2 (I don't) which grows plants and produces oxygen. I kind of like breathing.
146   SoTex   2024 Jun 22, 11:16am  

WookieMan says

Temperate climate so you're not running the AC every time you drive losing milage.


One of the many nice things I haven't mentioned about that truck is the AC is run from the battery. So you can sit parked with the engine off and run it. When the battery gets low the engine kicks on for a minute or two to recharge it.

Also, the interior isn't ugly with an ugly rotated computer screen like a Tesla it's very functional. The gear shift folds down automatically and you can unfold the padded armrest into a work surface. I can sit in a parking lot with the AC on with the engine turned off and read patnet memes from my laptop on basically a table.

With room left for a burger, fries and coke.
147   WookieMan   2024 Jun 22, 11:29am  

just_passing_through says

It's also much better looking. Most Teslas to me just look like ugly grocery gitters.

Not a truck guy, but I'd take that over a cyber truck.

The problem with the argument of parts on an ICE vehicle is that there's already a system in place. Plenty of auto parts stores. Online ordering of cheap parts. You're almost 99% likely within 10 miles of a gas station outside of the southwest. The infrastructure is established for ICE vehicles and hybrids. Not just gas. Maintenance. People that have worked on your car for 20-40 years in whatever variation.

There are no skilled EV mechanics. That will take 20-30 years. I get being a front runner on new tech, but it's just not worth it. Hybrids are already about 20 years deep time wise. They're fun to drive, I won't dispute that. I just don't see it being the future.
148   WookieMan   2024 Jun 22, 11:38am  

just_passing_through says

With room left for a burger, fries and coke.

Calm down on that unless you're a workout freak. Went out to eat Thursday, not fast food. I'm legit done. I feel like shit after going out to eat. I quit smokes 6 years ago and I think I might quit going out to eat.

I like the fun/atmosphere at most places, but it's generally shit food. Local places, eh, decent BBQ place. I just like homemade fresh food. Hard when traveling, but we still try to cook our own food when we travel.

EV's are the chain restaurants and ICE cars are home cooking... lol.
149   SunnyvaleCA   2024 Jun 22, 12:30pm  

Back-of-the-envelope relative costs for where I live (bay area):
If an EV goes 3 miles on 1 kWhr and the cost of a kWhr is 40¢ when charging off-peak, it's costing you 3 / 0.4 = 13¢/mile
If a car goes 30 miles on a gallon of gasoline that costs $4.75 (California pricing!), it's costing you 4.75 / 30 = 16¢/mile

Around town, the EV will go farther on a charge and be cheaper; at highway speeds, the ICE will probably pull ahead for cost and distance.

If you want to be cheap, then a Prius might be the winner:
50 miles on a gallon of gasoline that costs $4.75 is 4.75/50 = 9.5¢/mile

The Camry hybrid is probably 12¢/mile. Not bad for a descent-sized vehicle.

I've seen some public chargers around here that are charging 56¢/kWhr for charging. If you doing that for highway road trips where an ICE is most efficient, I'm guessing you fall way behind. If you're charging at 150 kWh rate (adding 225 miles with half an hour of waiting), it's much slower and your are hurting the battery. I'd say that for long road trips, the ICE is cheaper, way more convenient, and you're not hurting your $10,000 battery.

Another thing about road trips... if you're driving your EV at 70 MPH but stopping for 1/2 an hour every 3 hours, you're really only averaging 70x30 / (3 + 0.5) = 60 MPH. Drop the speeds to 60 and you'll gain some MPG in your ICE.
150   WookieMan   2024 Jun 22, 9:11pm  

SunnyvaleCA says

If you're charging at 150 kWh rate (adding 225 miles with half an hour of waiting), it's much slower and your are hurting the battery.

The math is per hour in my opinion. 30 minutes at a charger costs me about $150 regardless of the electric even if it's free. Still haven't factored in the higher cost of the car. I'd lose massive amounts of money driving an EV. Talking $50-75k and then the interest on that if I were to invest it.

It's a fast car that makes people feel cool. I like money and time. Not getting that with an EV. It's only a $$$ suck. You EV cats will eventually get it.
151   SunnyvaleCA   2024 Jun 23, 12:37am  

WookieMan says

30 minutes at a charger costs me about $150 regardless of the electric even if it's free

Depending on your usage patterns, an electric car that you plug in at night in your garage might save you more time than taking your ICE car to the gas station. But yeah, 1/2 pit stops during road trips would be a drag. Could be longer if you have to wait for someone else to use the charger first.
152   WookieMan   2024 Jun 23, 5:34am  

SunnyvaleCA says

Depending on your usage patterns, an electric car that you plug in at night in your garage might save you more time than taking your ICE car to the gas station.

I get that, but it's not about usage patterns for me. I don't have a consistent driving schedule. I'm rural so we're putting 30k+ per year on cars. It's not practical in flyover country for non-city dwellers with kids. It's a big city car or California where there are a ton of chargers.

All full EV's are DINK car owners. They're not practical if you have kids that have activities. Basically it's people with dual incomes living in urban settings. Or empty nesters. Which is fine, pay more for a fun to drive car. I've yet to know anyone with kids that bought a Tesla or any EV.

If I were to drive west from my house, there's no charging for 60 miles that wouldn't cause a 20-30min detour and that's not accounting for the charge time if I have to go to it. It's why my kids go crazy when they see a Tesla. It's like seeing bigfoot. You don't see them where I'm at because there's not enough range if I have three 100lbs boys smashed in the back, the wife, and my 220lbs ass (tall not fat) driving to go very far.

Once I leave home even if I fully charged I'd have immediate range anxiety with the payload of people I could barely fit I'm hauling around and the distances. There's at least 30 gas stations within 20 miles from me. 2 in my own town. Only one has a charger it's out of the way of any direction I'd go usually. I have an electric golf cart. As simple as it is, I don't want to plug it in every night after using it. Last thing I want to do when I get home.

I'd rather have a beer, write a novel on patnet or go to bed and not have range anxiety for the next day and plug it in. No value or utility in EV's and I probably speak for 100M people nationwide the will never get one. Factor in kids and EV's are hitting market saturation. If they are good cars (longevity), sales will plummet in a big way.
153   WookieMan   2024 Jun 23, 5:52am  

Another thought. If EV's are the future and Dems want to be green, what car does Biden ride around in? Hell all of congress. Assuming this is accurate, basically no one. https://www.eenews.net/articles/here-are-the-lawmakers-who-drive-evs/

100 Senators and 435 House members. 13 supposedly drive them. Given the age of these people it's likely they don't have kids living at home. So why doesn't the Democrat side have at least 200 EV's? Only 12? One republican broke ranks.

They have the pay to afford one on a single salary and their insider trading. You'd think they'd all be driving EV's if they're so worried about CO2. Government can't push this shit and not back it up. Classic rules for thee not for me.
154   socal2   2024 Jun 23, 9:56am  

WookieMan says

There are no skilled EV mechanics. That will take 20-30 years.


There is little to no maintenance required other than body work for wrecks. No oil changes, transmission or brake work. Batteries on early model Teslas are lasting a long time and will be 100 recycled.

Will be a huge disrupter to alot of fields. No wonder there are so many people against it.

Need more nuke plants for sure if we are serious.
155   socal2   2024 Jun 23, 10:00am  

UkraineIsTotallyFucked says

socal2 says


Most of those 46% who want to switch aren't driving Teslas.


So fucking what?

1) This isn't the Tesla Fluffer Thread.
2) You have no proof of that. You just made it up.


Tesla has the industry's highest loyalty and retention rate.

Trust me, once you drive a Tesla - you are not going back to drive a primitive ICE cars let alone downgrading to an inferior EV brand.

https://cleantechnica.com/2024/04/11/tesla-leading-in-auto-brand-loyalty/#:~:text=Brand%20Retention%20Rates%3A%20Tesla%20Takes,Toyota%20lags%20behind%20at%2054%25.
156   socal2   2024 Jun 23, 10:03am  

SunnyvaleCA says

Back-of-the-envelope relative costs for where I live (bay area):
If an EV goes 3 miles on 1 kWhr and the cost of a kWhr is 40¢ when charging off-peak, it's costing you 3 / 0.4 = 13¢/mile
If a car goes 30 miles on a gallon of gasoline that costs $4.75 (California pricing!), it's costing you 4.75 / 30 = 16¢/mile


Man - you guys get raped on your electric rates! PG&E doesn't offer any kind of EV plan?
157   WookieMan   2024 Jun 23, 12:43pm  

socal2 says

Man - you guys get raped on your electric rates! PG&E doesn't offer any kind of EV plan?

The earthquake happened dude. The Tsunami is coming. You will pay more for an EV car in the near future. I don't see repeat buyers. You're going to get taxed. As gas prices drop, no one will want an EV. Tesla and the likes will have to raise prices to cover the cost of production.

You're in the heyday of a failing endeavor. The math doesn't work without $500B in nuke investment at minimum. That raises everyone's rates and everyone doesn't want an EV as gas prices drop. I seriously want it to work. I just don't want another burden tossed at our feet. This has to be a massively slow roll out with responsibility.

EV is a roller coaster on its initial climb to start the ride. It should have been a slow train ride. We just don't have the tracks to make it work in the near term. It's math and infrastructure. You can't maintain roads without money. EV's WILL get even more expensive. Screen shot this post or whatever. Taxes are a coming.
158   krc   2024 Jun 23, 2:53pm  

Nuclear is now "green" so all is good... no worries.
Branding is everything.
159   Blue   2024 Jun 23, 4:40pm  

socal2 says


Man - you guys get raped on your electric rates! PG&E doesn't offer any kind of EV plan?


PGE EV-B rates:
Total Energy Rates ($ per kWh) PEAK PART-PEAK OFF-PEAK
Summer Usage $0.73169 (I) $0.48758 (I) $0.37503 (I)
Winter Usage $0.54909 (I) $0.41708 (I) $0.34535 (I)

You know, PGE paid a lot to California wildfires. This rates should reflect those payments!

I am not against EV but there is another problem with EV (at least in my case) that for inconsistent driving needs (a lot or nothing), I always end up using charge point even though, I can get almost free ;) out of my excess generation from SP that otherwise goes to grid and get almost nothing in return.
160   B.A.C.A.H.   2024 Jun 23, 4:53pm  

socal2 says

I don't have to wait in a long Costco line to fill up every week either like I do with my wife's car

You are so silly. It's a false choice to have to choose between refueling at Costco versus charging an EV at home.

Today (June 23, 2024) I purchased gasoline for my plug in Prius at Platinum Gas on Tully Road in San Jose for $4.059 per gallon. And I didn't make a special trip to Platinum Gas. I was passing by on my way home from somewhere else. No line of cars, because it wasn't Costco. Could've charged it at home for $0.45 per kwhr. Got 57 mpg on that fillup at $4.059 per gallon. You do the math.

Silly Socal.
161   socal2   2024 Jun 24, 9:08am  

WookieMan says

Taxes are a coming.


I already pay high registration fees for my EV in California so those costs have already been baked in the cake. My power company (SDG&E) just locked in my new rates for the next half decade so I will continue to save over $200/month driving a comparable car.

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