patrick.net

I thought that all the pumps were only set for sales in single digits for the dollars and that there was going to be a huge Y2K collapse.

I guess we will see soon enough.

Misc says

I thought that all the pumps were only set for sales in single digits for the dollars and that there was going to be a huge Y2K collapse.

I guess we will see soon enough.

They will start selling gasoline by the quart so that they don't have to add a digit to the pump

DooDahMan says

How much influence does anyone here think that any Potus actually has on gas prices.

Lots. Keystone pipeline and denied drilling permits are having the 'desired effect' that Biden wants, which is high gas prices.

The Defense Production Act could be invoked to induce refineries to make the gas and diesel we needed and prevent it from being offshored. We did it for ventilators and masks, neither of which were needed or helped us.
If Biden wanted to fix this, he could easily do so. These high fuel prices are absolutely by design.

The answer is natural gas, too bad they didn’t establish places to fill up.
Instead they pushed “electric cars” which actually run on natural gas too in many places.
1000 cubic feet of natural gas is equivalent to 7.87 gallons of gasoline.
1000 cubic feet prices vary; in California it’s $18, in Colorado $9.94, $13 in New York, etc.
I guess 2x1000 cubic feet would be about a tank of gasoline equivalent.
Natural gas requires no refining.

Misc says

I thought that all the pumps were only set for sales in single digits for the dollars and that there was going to be a huge Y2K collapse.

I guess we will see soon enough.

I suspect no issue. These electronic pumps were likely even built to handle selling gas by the liter, since at the time the electronic pumps first came out there was talk of going metric. Even way back in the 70's with mechanical pumps that had only 2 rolling wheels and thus could display only up to 99.9 cents per gallon worked when the price exceeded a dollar per gallon. The gas station just stuck a "1" sticker in front of the rolling wheels and the internals were able to handle metering the above $1 per gallon price.

If price gets above $10 per gallon, I see them getting rid of the "$4.999" style of price that includes that 9 tenths of a penny, the "mills" column. That would free up display space for "$10.99" style pricing.

Booger says

They will start selling gasoline by the quart so that they don't have to add a digit to the pump

Or the liter, with the (face saving) excuse that since it's an international commodity, it should be sold in international units.

B.A.C.A.H. says

Or the liter, with the (face saving) excuse that since it's an international commodity, it should be sold in international units.

Yes, and when a gas station puts up the sign with the liter pricing, watch cars line up around the block since the drivers think they are getting gas at about 1/4 the price. May even bring Jerry cans to fill.

clambo says

The answer is natural gas

I had one of those for eleven years. It's not a slam-dunk.

While the time required to fill up is about the same as a gasoline-powered car (as opposed to EV), there are very few filling stations. Far fewer than fast-charging sites.

It has an issue analogous to the "battery replacement cost" issue of an EV. PG&E would not allow me to refuel at their sites if the tank is more than ten years old. The car insurance company would not insure the vehicle if the tank is more than ten years old. At the time, the DMV was not part of this enforcement mechanism, but I would not be surprised if we could not register a vehicle with an "expired" tank.

The tanks are filled to 3600 psi. They are like a bomb. The designers, insurers, regulatory outfits are paranoid about hairline cracks from normal metal fatigue.

The tank has some purpose-built components built into it. The quote from the Honda dealer for replacement was $8500.

In year nine, the State of California made an edict allowing an extra five years, up to 15.

In year 11, I traded in the car at a dealer for a gasoline car.

The gas storage tank seems to be the area where the technology could be improved.

I used scuba tanks with 3000 pressure all the time, the steel ones are a couple hundred bucks.

They could construct a bulletproof tank.

$4.80 - $5.05 in Central Maryland now.

clambo says

They could construct a bulletproof tank.

It's not a problem of installing a bulletproof tank.

It's a problem of compliance with all the folks I mentioned.

California is leading the way again! More than $6 for regular everywhere in the state with diesel nearing $7.
Filled my tank a week ago and spent $100. Just ... wow!

https://gasprices.aaa.com/
https://gasprices.aaa.com/?state=CA

SunnyvaleCA says

California is leading the way again! More than $6 for regular everywhere in the state with diesel nearing $7.
Filled my tank a week ago and spent $100. Just ... wow!

https://gasprices.aaa.com/
https://gasprices.aaa.com/?state=CA

Dude, your tank is ... small. :D

clambo says

The gas storage tank seems to be the area where the technology could be improved.

I used scuba tanks with 3000 pressure all the time, the steel ones are a couple hundred bucks.

They could construct a bulletproof tank.

Scuba tanks are regularly tested, certified (and also discarded after certain time, iirc).

RWSGFY says

Scuba tanks are regularly tested, certified (and also discarded after certain time, iirc).

That's great for scuba folks. Maybe some day it can be like that for CNG. Maybe it is already. I traded in the CNG car four years ago.

On a side note, soon after I traded in the CNG car, Honda quit selling them. It was the only off-the-shelf purpose built CNG car. What I read was that they attributed the low demand for the car to the rising demand for EVs.

There's still many CNG vehicles out there: Some of PG&E's fleet of service vehicles and other utility companies like ATT. UPS trucks. Public transit buses.

PG&E and UPS allowed us to fill up at their service yards.

DooDahMan says

How much influence does anyone here think that any Potus actually has on gas prices.

Does anyone really think that some extra oil from KSA is going to make a long term difference. You can not push a gallon of water into a quart container.

Lets remember that refineries were being shut down during 45's term and that was A-Ok but now that the oil companies got everyone where they want them - do you really think they care ?

These people are not up for re-election anywhere for anything - They do not mind one iota and you definitely do not matter because you need what they got and they know it.

Biden got elected to fuck gas prices, they did it intentionally. Shit was jist as bad with Carter. Biden puppet doing its job that its masters want.

B.A.C.A.H. says

RWSGFY says

Scuba tanks are regularly tested, certified (and also discarded after certain time, iirc).

That's great for scuba folks. Maybe some day it can be like that for CNG. Maybe it is already. I traded in the CNG car four years ago.

On a side note, soon after I traded in the CNG car, Honda quit selling them. It was the only off-the-shelf purpose built CNG car. What I read was that they attributed the low demand for the car to the rising demand for EVs.

There's still many CNG vehicles out there: Some of PG&E's fleet of service vehicles and other utility companies like ATT. UPS trucks. Public transit buses.

PG&E and UPS allowed us to fill up at their service yards.

The range on that Civic was something laughable too. Like 150 miles IIRC.

https://notthebee.com/article/gas-prices-have-officially-doubled-since-joe-biden-took-office

When Joe Biden was sworn in as President of the United States on January 20, 2021, gas prices were holding steady at — ready? — $2.38 per gallon.

Two dollars and thirty-eight cents!
Fast-forward to today and the average gas price across America has officially doubled since that day. Gas hit another all-time record high on Friday of — ready? — $4.76 per gallon.

From $2.38 a gallon to $4.76 a gallon. In 500 days. Less than a year and a half.
Nice work, Joe.

It's $5/gallon in central Maryland. It will probably be more than that when I fill up after work tonight.

DooDahMan says

And with growth and an economic recovery comes increased demand for fuel.

What growth? Nobody wants to work. Our townie pub will have 100 people there tonight drinking and buying food. They "might" have a bartender and two waitresses. That's not a joke, service sucks. Someone could easily pull in $300/nt serving or bartending. UE and stimulus has made people lazy.

My wife will make $300k this year. She's contemplated bartending or serving there part time. It's printing money at this point (cash too, no taxes), but people don't want to do the work. She could pick up $50k/yr there and still work her full time job and not be stressed out.

If massive inflation is growth because people have to charge higher prices because no one will work, that's not promising.

DooDahMan says

Let's not forget this, which everyone loves to forget and or ignore

No first-year president going back to Carter comes close to matching the current White House occupant’s No. 1 or No. 2 ranking in each of 10 key measures

It is easy to get good numbers when you are coming out of a full lockdown and the economy was basically halted.
That he is not #1 in all categories is frankly surprising...
And the article is quite old. Given the dynamic nature of the economy - with the recent stock market crash, housing slump on the horizon, etc... I doubt his rankings hold.
Oddly, Trump was still number 1 in disposable income - which is really probably the best indicator of overall health for the "masses."

RWSGFY says

The range on that Civic was something laughable too. Like 150 miles IIRC.

Not really.

There's not so many filling stations, even in Cool And Hip Silicon Valley. Moreover, the odds are fairly high that the single "pump" will be out of service. It happened often enough that a website supposedly tracked which ones were "offline". Therefore, always needed a backup, which won't be next door, but some miles away. For these reasons, the "practical range" for local in-town (ie, not city-to-city like SF Bay Area to Sacramento) is more like 110 miles. This worked easy enough for me as my commute was round trip about 20 miles, and included driving past a filling station. But this was a unique usage model that would not work for most folks.

I had to travel from SJ to Sacramento 1x - 2x per week for work. There's PG&E filling stations along the I-80 corridor, very close to freeway exits in Vacaville and Davis. Another about a mile off the freeway in Sacramento, and at a UPS filling station along 680 corridor in Tri-Valley. Those worked well for such a long distance trip. But that's the only long distance trip I felt comfortable doing.

One time I took it to Truckee, used the PG&E yard in Auburn. One time, a trip to Fresno. Used PG&E yards in Los Banos and Fresno. It was risky because it depended on both stations being on line when I needed them. Once to San Luis Obispo. Again, risky as it depended on the yard in Salinas, and the truck stop in San Luis Obispo being on line.

Simpler and less anxiety to take the gasoline powered vehicle on such trips.

It's these experiences with the CNG car that make me skeptical about EVs for such travel. That's to say nothing of how much time is required to recharge an EV. CNG car took about 1-2 minutes to fill.

I still have some reservations about Trump though, in particular his chumminess with the Saudis who attacked America on 9/11, and his pushing the dangerous and ineffective vaxx.

https://notthebee.com/article/remember-when-the-democratic-congressional-campaign-committee-thanked-biden-for-lowering-gas-prices-3-cents-good-times

Remember when the Democratic Congressional Campaign Committee thanked Biden for lowering gas prices 2 cents? Good times.

DooDahMan says

krc says

And the article is quite old

December of 2021 is not really an old article -basically a recap of the year.

You think Biden is doing a good job for the country? Yes or no?

And no explanations. Just say yes or no.

At least Costco sell lower than many places. I got it today for a little over $6 in Santa Clara. Heard over radio that Costco membership fees could increase soon (inflation!).
https://www.aei.org/profile/desmond-lachman/ came in today's Mo Ansari show https://kdow.biz/radioshow/market-wrap and claims the recession is inevitable that could control the inflation.

I've seen the comments but make it a rule not to moderate anything involving me. So I'll let Patrick or someone else handle it. If they are approved all I'll say is being purposely obtuse is not a good way to conversation. What my wife makes is pertinent because it's reliant on oil. WE do good with high oil prices.

I'm showing my bias in the conversation so when I say something people know I stand to benefit from high oil. High oil is awful for most of the population, so I'm sympathetic to the people it hurts the most. There are people here with more wealth than I have, so it's not a brag. I'd look like a dick if I was happy for high oil, so trying to be cordial to other users here that might be in a tight spot because of this BS. Basically being a nice guy... imagine that on the internet.

You've never said who you voted for and I don't care. But coming to the defense of this admin on multiple threads and comments is telling. Biden has executive power to influence the oil industry. That's indisputable. Consumption is lower with WFH. More electric cars. Supply chain shortages so less shipping via truck/train. Idle ships outside of ports. China has shut down massive cities for days and weeks because of covid. Supply and demand. Oil prices are just being made up right now so you know.

You have a few major oil producers and with a weak admin, we're stuck with fucking insane oil prices. OPEC does what it wants, so now our domestic production figures it can do what it wants because we have a senile leader. That's the crux of this. Backroom deals and no leadership to squash it. Europe is helpless to it. China needs it, but they have Russian relations. We have the domestic capabilities, but Biden SHUT them down when he came into office. So don't say he can't do anything. He did. 1-2' of a pipeline is a barrel of oil that's pressurized and can be moved 100's or 1,000s of miles quickly.

Biden is destroying the country as we type these comments. And trust me, I equally dislike both sides. We wouldn't have issues if Trump just axed Fauci, let Covid run rampant as a minor cold and not shut everything down. It's a cold and we have a large senior demographic. It's okay to be independent. I am.

WookieMan says

You think Biden is doing a good job for the country? Yes or no?

This was the question. You didn't answer.

I asked a question and you didn't answer. Not sure how/why you're trying to make me a bad guy and coming at me with attitude. You know you didn't answer a basic question or didn't want to. That's not on me. I'm not losing sleep over it.

DooDahMan says

It does not matter what political party or who is sitting in the White House - there is extremely little they can do to get the gas prices back down.

Totally false. What changed in two years besides less oil consumption? So oil companies raised prices because demand was through the roof? Hell no. They're raising prices because we have incompetent leadership. Biden and his family are shit and likely getting kickbacks. I'll take Obama for another 2 terms. I wasn't born, but we've seen this story before with weak leadership and Carter. I worry it's worse this time. I don't think WWIII is out of the realm of possibility at this point. The White House is doing dick for this country and Congress is working to get reelected and not caring about a damn thing.

However Biden is performing, things will be worse under Kamala.

Because enemies of the US will test her at every opportunity.

Like Khrushchev tested Kennedy.

DooDahMan says

or they could

Nationalize the Oil Companies

and make them into post office-like entities.

B.A.C.A.H. says

However Biden is performing, things will be worse under Kamala.

Because enemies of the US will test her at every opportunity.

Like Khrushchev tested Kennedy.

This is true. Worse under Pelosi if it got to that level. We're the weakest as a country that I can recall in my short lifetime. Covid didn't help, but I think there's a reason for that....

https://boriquagato.substack.com/p/price-of-gasoline-too-high-buy-an

assessing the claim that EV's will save working people money or save the environment...

even leaving aside their limited availability, limited range, and the fact that of 10% of us bought one, it would completely, utterly crash the entire american power grid, the question of whether this is economically attractive does not appear to pencil out in the manner described. ...

as can be readily seen, the EV buyer is starting each month roughly $650 in the hole vs a honda buyer. this is not ground that can be made up in any sort of reasonable driving pattern.

Patrick says

https://boriquagato.substack.com/p/price-of-gasoline-too-high-buy-an

assessing the claim that EV's will save working people money or save the environment...

even leaving aside their limited availability, limited range, and the fact that of 10% of us bought one, it would completely, utterly crash the entire american power grid, the question of whether this is economically attractive does not appear to pencil out in the manner described. ...

as can be readily seen, the EV buyer is starting each month roughly $650 in the hole vs a honda buyer. this is not ground that can be made up in any sort of reasonable driving pattern.

EV's are not the future. Hybrid with an all electric range 90-100 miles and then switch over to the ICE. So electric would cover your standard commuting range, but you can still do a quick fuel stop and not have to wait for chargers on a longer trip or the act of charging.

My mom got the RAV-4 hybrid and is loving it. She estimates maybe 4 fill ups a year now and she lives 45 miles from myself and sister one way. Also has more room than her old Prius and gets better mileage for her use than the Prius she had.

My biggest beef is no one can make a large hybrid SUV that I've seen that's worth it. Like a Sequoia, Armada, Tahoe, etc. With 3 kids and needing to tow, we have to have the SUV and hell will freeze over before I buy a minivan as a straight male. Fortunately I don't drive that much. A busy week is one fill up. Sometimes I can go two weeks when there's a break in kids activities. Prices would have to get to $12-15/gallon for it to start to hurt the pocket book and we cut back on stuff or I get a smaller car.

WookieMan says

EV's are not the future. Hybrid with an all electric range 90-100 miles and then switch over to the ICE. So electric would cover your standard commuting range, but you can still do a quick fuel stop and not have to wait for chargers on a longer trip or the act of charging.

Yes.

Many households have more than one vehicle.

This is the sensible approach that haters on both sides ignore, hating on all-or-nothing arguments.

Overall the huge amount of miles driven and energy used are for the local trips. Providing the electric grid infrastructure can support charging many more cars overnight in peoples' garages/driveways, the sort of approach you suggest will go a long way towards addressing some problems.

I also heard that Teslas are atrociously expensive to insure. True? False?

WookieMan says

My biggest beef is no one can make a large hybrid SUV that I've seen that's worth it. Like a Sequoia, Armada, Tahoe, etc

Tahoes have been available in hybrid form for many years now. Sequoia is hybrid-only starting 2023 MY.

I just read it’s 2 pounds per liter in England, that’s $9.46 per US gallon.