patrick.net

All this talk about electric cars is all bullshit. Congrats, your subsidized bad decision is cheaper to drive now that Biden has fucked it all up.

I’m going on vacation pulling a trailer for 400 miles. It’s going to cost me $200, which is $100 too much but your model X will take 2 days to cover it as it will only go 100 miles between charges.

Nevermind trucks hauling important shit like food.

Anyways, congratulations on your slave made car fueled by coal. Progress!

AmericanKulak says

In these days of suburbs, where it's not unusual for a couple to work in two completely different directions, or neighbors for that matter, carpooling is less of an answer.

The entirety of the US is built around suburbs and commuting.

I have only ever lived in suburbs. I carpooled for about ten years, from San Jose to different Silicon Valley workplaces (Mountain View, Sunnyvale, IBM in South San Jose, Milpitas). My spouse who also worked (and carpooled), and some of those ten years we were parents of kids who needed chauffeuring. It can be done.

Yes, it's true, I had to drive a little bit to our meeting point (carpool did not meet at my residence). I quit carpooling when I began night shift.

But! What I/we did not do, was arrange our life in a super-hyper-efficient way where every freaking thing has to dovetail perfectly in such a way that made carpooling impractical. Doing that would be kind of stupid, allowing no margin for error.

pudil says

All this talk about electric cars is all bullshit.

I got one of the early Priuses in 2001. I needed a car and was sort of fascinated with the concept. I did not purchase it out of environmentalism or as a status symbol. (Besides the early Priuses were butt-ugly).

As time went on the Prius became a Status Symbol (this is pre-Tesla days), and so many Bay Area Hipsters got one. They used to like to boast about how much they were saving on gasoline. But they never talked about the cost of a replacement battery.

Every time I took my Prius for service, I would have the service advisor re-give me an informal quote for a replacement battery. The answer was always the same: $4000.

In 2006, Toyota replaced the battery under warranty due to a defect. They did not extend the original warranty. I asked the service advisor what was the warranty period if I had to buy a replacement battery after my battery's warranty expired: two years. The $4000 replacement battery warranty would be two years.

I keep log sheets of my costs for all my cars.. For the Prius, I had an accrual for the replacement battery cost that I amortized over the warranty period. I reckoned, for the fuel savings compared to a Corolla (about the same size), I had "broken even" on battery vs fuel cost savings after about 100,000 miles, this was after about ten years driving.

Smugsters and Hipsters with EV's don't bring up the cost of the battery.

There is a dude that drives a Prius in my neighborhood that has a bumper sticker saying:

"Nice Prius!"
"Said no one....."

socal2 says

Save_Ukraine says

@socal2
Which model did you get?

I got a Model Y dual motor. Ordered it back in August and it arrived in January. The thing is a spaceship! The speed, acceleration, torque, regenerative breaking (especially the regen breaking!), infotainment/audio system, autopilot (didn't get FSD). Can't imagine the acceleration in the Performance model let alone the Plaid, it is already crazy fast for a mid-range model.

All American car made by a company with a non-woke CEO like Musk.

@socal, congrats! It’s a fun car to drive. Hope you got it before all the price increases.

If it weren’t for the tri-motor Cybertruck, I would have ordered the Plaid. Can’t take anything with us when we’re gone. Might as well enjoy life without breaking the bank. YOLO! 😂

socal2 says

There is a dude that drives a Prius in my neighborhood that has a bumper sticker saying:

"Nice Prius!"
"Said no one....."

I saw a license plate frame on a Prius “0-60 eventually”. The car owner has a good sense of humor.

Eman says

@socal, congrats! It’s a fun car to drive. Hope you got it before all the price increases.

If it weren’t for the tri-motor Cybertruck, I would have ordered the Plaid. Can’t take anything with us when we’re gone. Might as well enjoy life without breaking the bank. YOLO!

I ordered in August, so I got it about $4-5K cheaper than what it is now. Still the most expensive car I have ever owned/leased.

I can't drive it enough! I am volunteering for every errand and school pickup/drop-off. I am fortunate that I live in an area with really nice roads and hills where I can let it out and get some really good speed. It never gets old.

Can't wait to see some Cybertrucks on the road. I live in EV mecca and already saw a few Rivians driving around.

socal2 says

already saw a few Rivians driving around.

Same here in NorCal. Saw a few driving around. The pricing is not bad compared to the competitions.

I got mine in 2017 so free supercharging for life. It’s convenient to get free charge most of the time. Get a free charge while going for a 2-3 mile walk with my wife, or picking up stuff at Target or Home Depot while getting a free charge.

To me, it has been worth every penny. Also the most expensive car I’ve ever bought. I dreamed of owning it in 2012 and it happened in 2017. As Walt Disney said “All your dreams can come true if you have the courage to pursue them.” This has been so true for me in the last 20+ years. 🙏

B.A.C.A.H. says

I had an accrual for the replacement battery cost that I amortized over the warranty period. I reckoned, for the fuel savings compared to a Corolla (about the same size), I had "broken even" on battery vs fuel cost savings after about 100,000 miles, this was after about ten years driving.

Interesting. I know the folks who operate a taxi company in Arizona that has a fleet of 200 Prius. They told me they routinely get 250,000 to 300,000 miles out of the Prius, with no change in battery.

https://nitter.pussthecat.org/Not_the_Bee/status/1501716520472350721?source=patrick.net

President Biden recently said “it’s simply not true that my administration or policies are holding back domestic energy production.”

I figure the fact checkers likely won’t touch this one, so I did the homework.

Biden’s claim isn’t true. I explain.


Just two weeks ago, Biden froze new drilling permits and stopped leases on federal lands because a court ruled that they couldn’t use an elevated “social cost of carbon” to make it more difficult to drill.

Instead, they shut the whole process down: nytimes.com/2022/02/20/clima…

Biden Administration Halts New Drilling in Legal Fight Over Climate Costs
The Interior Department is pausing new federal oil and gas leases and permits after a judge blocked the government from weighing the cost of climate damage in decisions.

nytimes.com


This opposition to domestic energy production isn’t new. When Biden first took office, he moved to ban new oil and gas leases on federal land (a huge slice of US energy) via executive order.

The measure was eventually stopped by the courts. nytimes.com/2021/01/25/clima…

Biden Sets in Motion Plan to Ban New Oil and Gas Leases on Federal Land (Published 2021)
The president will announce a suite of executive actions on Wednesday to combat climate change, two people familiar with his plans said, and will ask federal agencies to determine the extent of a...

nytimes.com

Back before gas prices hit record highs, Biden’s allies were praising the Admin for taking bold steps to limit fossil fuel production.

One of their key points? We, supposedly, already had enough supply “to meet domestic needs.”

nrdc.org/experts/joshua-axel…

Biden’s Fossil Fuel Leasing Pause Is Bold Climate Action
The moratorium on fossil fuel leasing is a key step in addressing the climate crisis.

nrdc.org

Biden also proposed ending a wide range of tax benefits for drilling and exploration, something supporters said would hopefully “discourage additional oil and gas development.”

This makes the process more expensive, particularly when competing with heavily subsidized renewables.



And I’m sure that no one has forgotten that Biden shutdown the Keystone XL pipeline on his first day in office.

But what you may have forgotten was that this was part of a broader suite of efforts to “reverse ‘more than 100’ Trump-era policies.” foxbusiness.com/economy/bide…



Taken together, these early moves represent what climate activist Bill McKibben said “may well mark the official beginning of the end of the fossil-fuel era” arguing “they send a decisive signal about the end of one epoch and the beginning of another.” newyorker.com/news/daily-com…




In June of 2021, Biden suspended oil and gas leases that the Trump Admin had granted in Alaska, outraging local officials and ending one of the key actions Trump took to expand domestic energy production. apnews.com/article/alaska-ar…

Biden suspends oil leases in Alaska's Arctic refuge
WASHINGTON (AP) — The Biden administration on Tuesday suspended oil and gas leases in Alaska’s Arctic National Wildlife Refuge, reversing a drilling program approved by the Trump administration and...

apnews.com

All of these federal efforts came with a clear goal in mind: sending a signal that the days of fossil fuels would be ending soon.

Again, once upon a time, the corporate press was comfortable admitting this was the goal:

time.com/5934090/joe-biden-c…

Biden's Biggest Climate Move: Signaling that Fossil Fuels Are Not the Future
Biden’s remarks communicated a sea change in how the U.S. government will approach global warming

time.com

These signals matter.

Extractive industries like oil & gas rely heavily on tea-leaf-reading, because even seemingly small gov’t actions can have huge impacts for a heavily regulated industry. A quick, easy-to-follow breakdown of some of the reasons here: investopedia.com/ask/answers…

How do government regulations impact the oil and gas drilling sector?
Find out how government regulation of the oil and gas sectors is often positive for the large companies, but may be negative for smaller operations.

investopedia.com

And it wasn’t just Biden acting on his own.

As @SaysSimonson wrote about for @FreeBeacon, Dems in Congress have pushed to restrict domestic energy production even as prices have climbed:
freebeacon.com/politics/how-…

How Dems Helped Spike Gas Prices - Washington Free Beacon
Despite reassurances from the White House that it is doing nothing to discourage oil companies from opening new drill sites, President Joe Biden's allies in Congress just months ago pressured oil...

freebeacon.com

Congressional Dems have also taken steps to add tighter (and in some cases, just punitive) regulations that make it harder for domestic energy companies to do business, including regs on offshore oil & regarding methane.

Naturally, making a process harder increases the cost.



And there were numerous hearings where Democrats have demonized the oil and gas industry in colorful but seriously dubious ways, making the industry’s standing on that side of the aisle clear.


Plus, something that gets left out of the current discourse is that numerous states have banned or proposed banning fracking, an effective way to access hard-to-reach energy sources.

I’ll give you one guess which politically party was behind these efforts.




Now, to be clear, the impacts of some of these efforts have been overblown.

Despite trying to ban new drilling on federal lands, lots of plans have moved forward to do so - more than under President Trump’s first year (largely b/c of Obama-era rules), but fewer than last year.


And it isn’t reasonable to blame Biden - or any president - exclusively for the price of oil and gas. The world is just more complicated than that.

Here’s a good primer on some of that complexity: npr.org/2021/11/14/105506858…

Gasoline prices are surging. Can Biden actually do something about it?
Presidents don't set the gas price you pay at the pump, but they're often blamed for it. And right now, high energy prices are helping send inflation to an over 30-year high.

npr.org

But it’s intellectually disingenuous for President Biden to pretend that he and his party haven’t taken action to make domestic energy production more difficult and, as a result, have made energy more expensive.

They’ve done a lot with the explicit goal of doing just that.

The inconvenient truth is that Biden campaigned on ambitious climate goals. Those aren’t likely to get done organically, so he and his administration have tried to apply pressure to traditional energy sources.

Now that prices have jumped, they’re trying to pretend otherwise.

Increased costs have always been a good-faith concern about climate efforts among lots of people, left, right and center.

Biden and his team ignored those warnings and helped make the bed they find themselves laying.

Rather than admit that, now they’re trying to memoryhole it.

socal2 says

There is a dude that drives a Prius in my neighborhood that has a bumper sticker saying:

"Nice Prius!"
"Said no one....."

Lol. I have that one on my Prius. My teenage son got it for me. We make fun of the car all the time, but it's actually a nice/comfortable car.

I don't fill up often. Fuel gauge said 10 miles to go. So pretty much a max fill up. $107..... Our prices are sill under $5 because we have the BP refinery over in Gary, IN, so shipping is cheap. We get to write it off, but I know people in town with similar sized cars that aren't going to be able to afford prices like this much longer. Outside of a uHaul or RV rental I don't think I've ever dropped 3 figures on gas.

This is just stupid at this point considering damn near every white collar worker I know is working from home. We have shortages so that has to mean less truck movement of goods. I feel like demand per capita should be at one of its lowest levels in history. I've never spent $75 plus filling my car. Although I don't really care as we'd be fine even if it was $10/gal. Not that I want that... As Patrick mentioned this is basically a tax on the poor because we don't want to drill some holes by some mountain goats or some other animal. The poor, in general, not all, are stupid and don't see it this way. They should be screaming drill baby drill. Mobility is a huge factor in getting out of poverty.

WookieMan says

I don't fill up often. Fuel gauge said 10 miles to go

I used to operate like that.

I learned my lesson after the Loma Prieta Quake. The power in my neighborhood was restored within about three hours after the quake. We watched the aftermath unfolding on a local news channel. A news-camera-reporter van ran out of gas (or nearly did) in Woodside (on the peninsula). They could not get gas though because the electricity was not restored so the pumps did not operate. Another vehicle was stranded at the station, a Trans Am coasted in on fumes. The driver was Jose Canseco of the Oakland Athletics. His passenger was his super-hot babe of a wife Esther. Canseco was still in uniform, as the players evacuated from the ballpark World Series game that was cancelled. With nothing else to do the TV reporter interviewed Canseco and Esther using their giant antenna transmitter to send the signal to their station.

I learned my lesson from the camera crew and Jose Canseco. Some people died on the causeway across Lake Pontchartrain fleeing hurricane Katrina, because they ran out of gas. Some people died on the road out of Paradise, CA, in the recent wildfire because they ran out of gas. Burned to death in their cars or while fleeing on foot. These are the dramatic stuff that can happen. But a minor inconvenience can become a major one from running out of gas or not being able to buy more, at an inopportune time. After the quake I always try to keep a half tank.

https://nypost.com/2022/03/11/texans-driving-to-mexico-for-cheaper-gas/?source=patrick.net

I saw a Prius bumper sticker that say: "I may be slow, but I'm ahead of you!"

I had a rental Prius and actually kind of liked it... I generally hate automatic transmissions, but at least the Prius was reasonably predictable without any sudden unintended acceleration after a spurious downshift. I also liked the handling of the non-stick tires, with the wheels squealing and front-end plough giving the impression of fun and excitement without needing to go 2x the speed limit.

I always thought it was bizarre to have a big battery for 35 miles of all-electric driving on a car that already got 50+ MPG. If gas were back at $2/gallon each diligent nightly charge is saving you a maximum of $1.40.

What do people think about about the Plural for Prius:
Latin: Prii
Greek: Priora
'Merican: Priuses

There's little debate about the collective noun for a group of the things. It's called a "smug." As in: "A see a smug of Priuses waiting at the Über pickup location."

Diesel is over $6/gallon here in California — more than the so-called "high" octane gasoline (91 octane). I'm thinking this will be putting a squeeze on commercial ground transportation. I assume marine diesel and home heating oil is similarly high, too.

SunnyvaleCA says

I always thought it was bizarre to have a big battery for 35 miles of all-electric driving on a car that already got 50+ MPG. If gas were back at $2/gallon each diligent nightly charge is saving you a maximum of $1.40.

99% of my driving is less than a 35 miles a day total so I can run for months on a single tank of gas. When I have to take a trip and switch to hybrid mode, I'm still pulling 55+mpg.

I used to hate prius's, but ever since getting one, I have about it all the time. It's a brilliant car that's actually kinda fun to drive.

SunnyvaleCA says

Diesel is over $6/gallon here in California — more than the so-called "high" octane gasoline (91 octane). I'm thinking this will be putting a squeeze on commercial ground transportation. I assume marine diesel and home heating oil is similarly high, too.

Jet fuel too.

SunnyvaleCA says

There's little debate about the collective noun for a group of the things. It's called a "smug." As in: "A see a smug of Priuses waiting at the Über pickup location."

Agreed.

SunnyvaleCA says

I always thought it was bizarre to have a big battery for 35 miles of all-electric driving on a car that already got 50+ MPG.

I got my driver license during the Iranian Revolution. I remember reading at the time, the disruptions led to about 5% reduction in global supply of crude oil, causing three hour queues to get gasoline in San Jose, and a tripling of prices (because all pricing of everything is in the margins). My parents let me drive their car when they didn't need it, - they even paid for the gasoline. But in return, I had to buy their gas (with their money). In the three hour queues. Lots of people on edge in those lines.

So, when I finally got some marginal buying power as an adult in the 1990's I was interested in getting an alternative to a gasoline powered car, in case something like that were to happen again. Because of this little detail that I needed reliable transportation to my job. Especially since working night shift then carpooling and public transit were not options. I explored an EV. At the time, it was hobbyists who made their own EVs. (I think the GM EV1 was already off the market and besides too expensive). I attended a couple of meetings of the Silicon Valley Electric Vehicle Association to learn about this concept. What I learned was, this concept was not a practical solution for me. Those hobbyist EVs were for tinkerers who were obsessed with their hobby. Suitable for hobbyist tinkerers but not suitable for a paranoid commuter who wanted reliable transportation. This how I became fascinated by the early Prius when it was available in California in year 2000. Not a gasoline-free solution, but a step in that direction. When the Prius caught on in a big way a few years later, with a new design that was not as butt-ugly as the yr-2000 design, then Bay Area Hipster-Smugsters me-tooism smugged all over the Bay Area in their Priuses. And they became so Smug about their carpool lane stickers.

In recent years I got the plug in version. Not as a fashion statement or status symbol (Tesla replaced Prius for that), but as a somewhat practical alternative for gasoline, because of my paranoia. It is not a perfect solution. A pure EV is more efficient, and as pointed out by Sunnyvale, hauling around a heavy battery for 55 mpg is ridiculous. Maybe even being paranoid about something that happened in 1978 is ridiculous too. Whatever. Sticks and stones.

joshuatrio says

I used to hate prius's, but ever since getting one, I have about it all the time. It's a brilliant car that's actually kinda fun to drive.

My wife bought one new in 2005.

What a great car! Good (not great) acceleration and handling, awesome brakes, and very good gas mileage. It was also comfortable to sit in. Other than maintenance, it never went to the shop. In 200,000 miles we never did anything but change the oil. At 230,000 the catalytic converter went out (damn you CARB for making us pay double for parts just for your sticker) and the battery started to fail. $3,000+ repair bill. I put it on craigslist for $3,000 and had cash in hand a couple hours later.

Onvacation says

At 230,000...the battery started to fail

Interesting, 230,000 miles; how many years?

HeadSet says

SunnyvaleCA says

Diesel is over $6/gallon here in California — more than the so-called "high" octane gasoline (91 octane). I'm thinking this will be putting a squeeze on commercial ground transportation. I assume marine diesel and home heating oil is similarly high, too.

Jet fuel too.

This will cause a crisis for the airlines. Because, like restaurant (also in crisis) meals, air travel is a discretionary luxury that we can do fine without. The airlines don't have the pricing power to pass along their higher cost for the scale of marketplace they sized their industry for.

There are a few, like the guy in Chicago area who attacks me, calls me out, calls me names, thinks he's inside my mind that I cannot stand the fact he likes to fly (untrue, my observations are not all about him), who are wealthy enough to pay whatever the new cost will be to operate the flights. There are a few. But just a few. Not enough of them to sustain the scale of the industry.

1. inflation, totally expected from so much free money from the government, and mortgage and rent forgiveness.
2. gasoline prices rising since Biden started fucking with pipelines and etc.
3. oil and gas prices further rising because of Putin.
4. further inflation from #3.

Congress, Fauci, Biden deserve blame for 1&2, Putin for 3&4.

B.A.C.A.H. says

Interesting, 230,000 miles; how many years?

14

Onvacation says

B.A.C.A.H. says

Interesting, 230,000 miles; how many years?

14

Wow! 14 years and 230,000 miles. That's a superb value.

Gasoline prices may already be solving our truck, RV, and boat shortages.

Patrick says

Interestingly, the complainers are Ford Mach-E and Bolt owners, and 70% of them didn’t have a level 2 charger at home while Biden said F and GM are the leaders in EV’s. Uh huh….

https://www.businessinsider.com/electric-car-owners-switching-gas-charging-a-hassle-study-2021-4?source=patrick.net

AmericanKulak says

B.A.C.A.H. says

Cannot afford it? What's so wrong with carpooling ("ride sharing"?). I traveled once to a place where folks of modest means who were lucky enough to have a car would pick up strangers along the way in exchange for some small amount of money to defray their fuel cost. I even got a couple such rides myself.

In these days of suburbs, where it's not unusual for a couple to work in two completely different directions, or neighbors for that matter, carpooling is less of an answer.

The entirety of the US is built around suburbs and commuting.

What would really be great leadership is "If you are not physically required to be present, companies MUST let you work at home or themselves be ineligible for any tax breaks on gas/travel expenses."

This would also help with traffic. My work thankfully has moved to remote for most workers permanently. (It saves them on expensive commercial office space… and allows them to easily ask us to work after hours without complaint … I gladly will be “on call” during the week occasionally for the perk of being able to read a bedtime story to my kid and then come downstairs and finish up some work.

Eman says

Patrick says

Interestingly, the complainers are Ford Mach-E and Bolt owners, and 70% of them didn’t have a level 2 charger at home while Biden said F and GM are the leaders in EV’s. Uh huh….

https://www.businessinsider.com/electric-car-owners-switching-gas-charging-a-hassle-study-2021-4?source=patrick.net

Only someone without a garage would find charging inconvenient. Those people are probably complaining.

Patrick says

To be fair Biden hasn’t done much to cause inflation. If he had passed that Build Back Better bill than maybe. He hasn’t really done anything other than continue Trumps economic policy on forbearing student loans. Even extra kid money stopped this year.

Not defending him because I feel he should have pushed everything through with all his might and executive power. Should have forgiven as much loan money as he could under executive order… probably $10k for every borrower. But he’s really done nothing he promised. And is gonna get crushed for it in the midterms. Although I do see loans being deferred again until after midterms. He can blame Putin easily for that one. When it’s really to not piss of student debt voters.

BoomAndBustCycle says

Eman says

Patrick says

Interestingly, the complainers are Ford Mach-E and Bolt owners, and 70% of them didn’t have a level 2 charger at home while Biden said F and GM are the leaders in EV’s. Uh huh….

https://www.businessinsider.com/electric-car-owners-switching-gas-charging-a-hassle-study-2021-4?source=patrick.net

Only someone without a garage would find charging inconvenient. Those people are probably complaining.

Well, I didn’t see Tesla owners complained in the article. Also, F and GM have no supercharging infrastructure for long road trips like Tesla. Elon thought things through while F and GM CEOs are nothing more than overrated W2 employees, who are there to collect their Golden parachutes while not adding much value to the company. Sad!