patrick.net

I think the ultimate value of the US dollar is that Saudi Arabia demands dollars for their oil.

That's what I think of as the "petrodollar".

cisTits says

Patrick says

All the petrodollar is is any US money banked overseas and used overseas for transactions that occur via bookkeeping methods. Not limited to.mideast or oil money anymore. In fact, the majority isn't.

It's just a continuing scam at this point in my opinion. I don't know why China and India still participate in it. Russia quit it which is probably the true conflict the US has with Russia, and we are showing ourselves to be a paper tiger. Time will tell. I think Russia is legitimately afraid of us, but at the same time, I can see how weak our military really is. Sure, we can kick the shit out of a 3rd world country (sometimes..), Russia is not a 3rd world nation.

Or as I like to describe the US Dollar, it's still the best game in town, irregardless what happens to the price of Oil, or what other Countries gripe about.
My unwanted useless Petro Dollar repository is still open, I opened it in 2007 but nobody on Patnet has never sent me their junk dollars.

Tenpoundbass says

My unwanted useless Petro Dollar repository is still open, I opened it in 2007 but nobody on Patnet has never sent me their junk dollars.

I'll trade it for gold, after all, isn't the dollar the best game in town? Give me your worthless metal for my worthless dollars.

cisTits says

richwicks says

Why would they want to export so much?

Uh, is that a serious question?

For him - yes. =))

richwicks says

Tenpoundbass says

My unwanted useless Petro Dollar repository is still open, I opened it in 2007 but nobody on Patnet has never sent me their junk dollars.

I'll trade it for gold, after all, isn't the dollar the best game in town? Give me your worthless metal for my worthless dollars.

Wait! Are you trading Ass for your Gold? How are you getting the gold you get?

I have been hearing about petrodollar demise and dollar collapse for last 15 years. ZH is full of articles such as “Zimbabwe bought oil from Sudan and paid in Mongolian tugriks which signals end of dollar hegemony”. I am still waiting for that.

BTW logical arguments will not work on the petrodollar religion adherents more than scientific arguments worked on mask religion adherents

Tenpoundbass says

Or as I like to describe the US Dollar, it's still the best game in town,

And the sad part of that is that even after devaluating about 95%, its still the best FIAT in play.

komputodo says

Tenpoundbass says

Or as I like to describe the US Dollar, it's still the best game in town,

And the sad part of that is that even after devaluating about 95%, its still the best FIAT in play.

.... and no non-fiat plays exist. Guaddafi was our last hope until Bernanke ordered him killed...

Economic Lemmings: "Fiat money is no good buy Bit Coins and Gold!"
Also Economic Lemmings: "I lost half of my money on Bit Coin! So I bought more Gold when it went over $1600 an oz. "

I'm still waiting on the "For Sale" sign that says "2 oz. of Gold" as the price. .

cisTits says

Consider this: in a world where all global trade were to simply cease, everyone’s quality of life would go down.

But on an relative basis, America would be even more ahead economically.

That is true, as you stated we do not have an export driven economy.

We are somewhat self sufficient as far as agriculture, healthcare, energy, higher education, and technology development.

However we do rely on some imports for our supply chain as look at how many products from China, Taiwan, etc are needed for manufacturing in the USA such as automobiles.

For example, how many parts from China go into Whirlpool's refrigerators that are manufactured / assembled in the USA ?

Look at how Japan was cut off before start of World War 2 in regards to oil, which it had to extensively import.

.

We only rely on China because the geniuses purposely exported our industrial capacity to them.

cisTits says

richwicks says

Why would they want to export so much?

Uh, is that a serious question?

@cisTits?

Yes, it is. Why haven't you answered it?

What, precisely, does Russia need from anybody else? None of you chuckleheads can answer that. There's this BULLSHIT from the retards in our government that thinks "money" is something Russia needs. For what?

RWSGFY says

For him - yes. =))

@RWSGFY - answer the question.

You're one of the dumbest, snidest people I've ever run across on the Internet, and I've been on it before web browsers were invented.

Instead of appling derision, which is nothing more than a stupid ad-hominem attack, explain just what Russia needs "money" for? What are they, the Russians, using money to trade for?

Can you guys answer this? Show you have the capacity to be less stupid and fucking retarded than our own fucking dumb shit totally moronic Neocons. They are either the stupidest mother fuckers to EVER gain power in the United States, or they are a 5th column in the United States whose purpose is to destroy this country. Show that you are smarter than they are.

What precisely does Russia need from anybody else?

cisTits says

richwicks says

It's an entirely serious question.

No. It isn't.

Just an expression of ignorance.

Here it is in a simple, "See Spot Run" format. Exporting Nations for Dummies, basically:

https://youtu.be/l0CQsifJrMc?t=199

Noo, @cisTits - answer the question. Don't point to a fucking haystack and say the needle is in there.

What does Russia need US or European currency for? To trade for what?

You are acting as if this has an stupefyingly easy answer, yet you can't answer it. All of you people are like "PFFT! You don't KNOW that answer?!? HARDE HAR HAR!!! You dumb!"

I do know the answer, I'm demonstrating to other people you don't. Russia doesn't need ANYTHING from the United States or Europe, Nothing at all. There's some luxury goods they don't mind having, but they need NOTHING from the US or Europe.

Europe on the other hand DOES need VITAL resources from Russia - energy. This is not a luxury for them, this is absolutely necessary to keep functioning.

US Bank Trouble Heralds The End Of Dollar Reserve System

Bank crisis not a credit quality problem but stems instead from now-impossible task of financing America’s ever-expanding foreign debt...

Read it here:
https://www.zerohedge.com/geopolitical/us-bank-trouble-heralds-end-dollar-reserve-system

richwicks says

What precisely does Russia need from anybody else?

True, as Russia could probably sustain itself depending on the demands of its average standard of living.

Does it need to import vital medical supplies like antibiotics ?

How much of its public transportation's operation and maintenance are dependent on foreign goods and services (i.e., technical representatives from other countries assist with complex repairs, parts from China to replace worn brake parts, etc.).

A standard of living that is more complex increases likelihood for more imports in a global economy.
.

ad says

Does it need to import vital medical supplies like antibiotics ?

Possibly, but India produces this. Given our fucking pharmaceutical system, they would probably be healthier without buying any of our poisons.

ad says

How much of its public transportation's operation and maintenance are dependent on foreign goods and services (i.e., technical representatives from other countries assist with complex repairs, parts from China to replace worn brake parts, etc.).

All that, will be replaced. Russia has been trying to do trade of goods and services with Europe for 30 years, the US keeps interfering with them, finally Russia is at the "fuck you moment". They will no longer pursue any trade with Europe or the United States. Their manufacturing is shit, I know that, I think that's finally about to change. Reliance on ANYTHING from Europe or the US is bad for them, they have 5 years to get their asses straight on manufacturing or so before they run out of parts, but they are doing well with China and they export significant amounts of energy to China.

ad says

A standard of living that is more complex increases likelihood for more imports in a global economy.

I don't see why. Has trade with China increased the standard of living in the United States? We've been doing it for 30 years. Has this helped the United States?

If Russia (and it's a big IF) can get rid of their systemic corruption and incentivize creation and and business development within their own country, they will have a good future ahead. The West is just too fucking corrupt to bother with.

richwicks says

I don't see why. Has trade with China increased the standard of living in the United States? We've been doing it for 30 years. Has this helped the United States?

First thought is cheap computers like the $200 Chromebook (Acer, 15 inch screen) I am using now. Cheap computers can be a powerful tool that offers many productivity advantages. Look also at how valuable free services like Google Drive and Open Office.

Cheap cameras like from Wyze can be used to keep an eye on elderly and young children in a home. Look at medical pendants or necklaces that can be worn and can detect a fall.

I can see there are a lot of western robber barons like Soros who get protection by wrapping themselves with the globalist and Woke flags. I think there is still an active arrest warrant in Thailand for Soros.

My degrees are mechanical engineering and industrial engineering (IE). I use an IE mindset to look at how to merge free or cheap, readily available (commercial off the shelf) products to make life easier.

But I can see Russia easily being able to sustain itself by just relying on India, China and Africa. Russia is an innovative country with hardy people; they can figure things out a lot on their own. I would say some of the USA is like that, especially Rednecks (i.e. my people) and homesteaders in Idaho, Montana, Alaska, etc.

.

ad says

First thought is cheap computers like the $200 Chromebook (Acer, 15 inch screen) I am using now. Cheap computers can be a powerful tool that offers many productivity advantages. Look also at how valuable free services like Google Drive and Open Office.

That's from China. Not from the West. Russia has (officially) moved to Linux as well. People dumb enough to continue to use Windows, do it to their own detriment.

All the stuff you listed aren't anywhere close to strictly necessary either.

Europe needs energy, period. They need energy to LIVE.

Russia at this point, after being stabbed in the back, over and over and over again, should just be like "fuck you Europe". Let them freeze, let their factories close, fuck them. They have been patient and generous for a LONG time. Fuck Europe. Russia doesn't need Europe, Europe needs Russia, and Russia should just let Europe fucking fail.

The Neocunts want another fucking Cold War? Fine, do it. Russia will win this time. Can't you see the West's weakness? We need to have constant propaganda, and constant censorship, in order to even stay afloat at this point. WE are the USSR this time around. I don't see why people don't understand this.

Can't you see how much stupid propaganda is needed to keep this all going? "Russia blew up the Nordstream pipeline" - I remember when we used to make FUN of the USSR for propaganda as stupid as that and pointing out what a bunch of losers they were because they needed censorship to keep the government in power.

For 20 years, all I have seen in the US is failure after failure after failure after failure, as MORONS that keep making "mistakes" keep falling up. The people in power in this nation are destroying this nation, and people just continue to ignore it. People have been warning about this for 2 decades, and nobody will listen, nobody will do anything to stop it, they just go along to get along, so fine, fuck it. If you all want to allow a dictatorship tyranny to take root in the US, go ahead.

richwicks says

The people in power in this nation are destroying this nation, and people just continue to ignore it.

As long as they have a basic standard of living (a roof over head, cheap food in kitchen, medicaid, large screen LCD with Pluto TV, Tubi, etc.) with help from the government, then they won't complain. That is what is being leveraged as far as government having control over the masses.

Also the government uses Woke and virtue signaling as the proverbial thumb over the masses especially keeping anyone of the masses from rebelling or being dissidents.

.

ad says

My degrees are mechanical engineering and industrial engineering (IE). I use an IE mindset to look at how to merge free or cheap, readily available (commercial off the shelf) products to make life easier.

It's been my experience that companies that abandon their proprietary IP process, to shoe horn it into readily available free or cheap open source options. They end up with a whole suite of non-utilized or over utilized options that doesn't really service their core needs, and does very little to distinguish them from their competitors.
They then end up having to keep a separate set of records that does the brainwork and calculations for their business model, to which they then have to plug the sums and totals of in their readily cheap available options.

It's a crime what people are doing to companies, driving them into the ground to make their resume make them seem like they are the new thing migration king.

cisTits says

richwicks says

Why would they want to export so much?

Learn economics.

<sarcasm>What a surprise, you can't explain it. What a shock!</sarcasm>

I get sick of people being full of shit, stop being full of shit. Delusion is one of the worst problems that I have to deal with. If people could actually THINK, see things as they ACTUALLY are, we'd be in a much better world. But, apparently, some people just want to be fucking full of shit, because it's dangerous to call out the fucking incompetence and backward policies that fucks over our entire nation.

Russia isn't the real focus of this proxy war in my opinion, it's us, the US population, and the European population. We can spend 100 billion dollars on bullshit in Ukraine, but we can't spend a fucking dime on Palestine Ohio. Our government doesn't give a FUCK about the population of the United States, and neither do you.

cisTits says

richwicks says

Noo, cisTits - answer the question. Don't point to a fucking haystack and say the needle is in there.

What does Russia need US or European currency for? To trade for what?

Now you are goal post moving.

No - I keep fucking asking you, what does Russia need "money" for? They don't need to trade at ALL with Europe or the United States. In fact, they should stop entirely.

It's Europe that needs Russia, and it's the United States that is the predator on top of Europe and the Middle East. Russia doesn't need any fucking money from either the fuckers of the EU or the fuckers of the United States.

Answer the fucking question. Don't be "duh, learn economics" - you fucking explain it. I understand geopolitics and economics to some extent, the stupid Neocunts don't or they are purpose sabotaging THIS nation and Europe. Who is inviting in all these refugees into Europe? That's destroying the continent, is Russia doing that? Who is inviting in all these illegal immigrants to the United States? Russian doing that?

You mother fuckers are SO EASILY FOOLED, and impossible to teach, that we're stuck with domestic traitors fucking you and ME over. People like me, try to talk to IDIOTS like you, you won't listen, and you outnumber of 10 to 1. Thanks for being a willing dupe.

cisTits says

richwicks says

Don't be "duh, learn economics" - you fucking explain it.

Already did. But Not my prob you're messed up in understanding it.

Pretending he doesn't understand even the simplest of concepts if they go against the line he's toeing is his usual shtick, lol.

If he is trolling I really admire his skills, it is level 9000+. If not, then…

Eric Holder says

cisTits says

richwicks says

Don't be "duh, learn economics" - you fucking explain it.

Already did. But Not my prob you're messed up in understanding it.

Pretending he doesn't understand even the simplest of concepts if they go against the line he's toeing is his usual shtick, lol.

Give me a break. Currency is used for trade of goods and service. EU notes are used to trade for good and services from Europe. What goods and services does Russia need from Europe? Not WANT, NEED.

No answer.

What goods and services does Russia need from the United States? Not WANT, NEED.

@"Eric Holder", @cisTits, @Bd6r - you're all full of shit. This is why you resort to ad - hominem attack when people point out "you are full of shit, and I'm calling you out on being full of shit".

Russia doesn't NEED anything from Europe or the United States. I bet they have some dependency on China, not certain they have any real dependency on India, but they are neighbors.

This pathological insanity of Americans thinking the rest of the world depends on them. Depends on the United States for WHAT? You guys have no fucking clue. It's not technology either. Do you know China has their own internal chipset for their last supercomputer?

https://en.wikipedia.org//wiki/Supercomputing_in_China

And it's not using an American chipset. We don't really (anymore) know who has the FASTEST computer, that may be inaccurate, but China doesn't use our chips at all now. What (we think) they are using is the Sunway SW26010 - they do NOT export these.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sunway_SW26010

We don't know the instruction set, they developed their own compilers and their own optimizer for them. Meanwhile, the US has finally fucking realize maybe we shouldn't be exporting all of our technology to China. Finally.

Of course because STEM has been infected with this wokeness bullshit, we are highly dependent on foreign workers at this point. Graduate from Stanford or Harvard? Well, only hire them if they are Asian, or white - all other races are getting social promotion. Flipping a coin with that.

You know what the FINAL bitch of this is? Because it's BLATANTLY obvious that intelligence agencies have infiltrated US high tech, nobody wants US high tech now. Buying a router? It's infiltrated, I guarantee it. Backdoors are built into x86 processors, ALL of them. China might very well be doing the same thing, but if people haven't found it, they can't exploit it. What the NSA can do with these backdoors, any hacker can do, even if they are Russian or Chinese.

You guys simply have no clue. Our intelligence agencies have FUCKED US hard.

cisTits says

richwicks says

What, precisely, does Russia need from anybody else?

No. I won't. Because it has nothing to do with what I was talking about.

Russia doesn't need EU currency or US currency. That's the "money" that stupid assholes like Condoleezza Rice are talking about.


original link

I cannot believe how fucking stupid these people are and/or how naive they are - but to see people blindly repeat this stuff without even fucking thinking about it blows my mind.

Russia doesn't need ANYTHING from the US or EU, and that includes "money" from the US or EU because the ONLY function of "money" from the US or EU is to trade for EU and US goods and services, which they don't need.

Condi Rice is one of the stupidest people EVER to be in our government, and I know Kamala Harris is there now. You're listening to her. You're repeating HER bullshit.

You don't even understand what "money" represents. If Russia isn't going to trade with the US or Europe (which they can't, and haven't in any meaningful way for over a decade), what is Russia supposed to do with what what Condi Rice describes as "money" anyhow?

Only the incompetent and the corrupt rise to the top of the US at this point. That's why we're fucked and you clapping seals can't see it, because you think "well, Condi Rice wouldn't be in that position if she didn't know what she was talking about", even though she clearly doesn't know what she's talking about, and neither do you. Use your brain, don't just repeat stupid propaganda.

Hey, want some Confederate money? How about some Lincoln greenbacks! I mean, you wouldn't want to run out of them!! Right? Condi?

cisTits says

richwicks says

Noo, cisTits - answer the question. Don't point to a fucking haystack and say the needle is in there.

What does Russia need US or European currency for? To trade for what?

HAS nothing to do with what I was talking about OR it covers your answer...depending on WHATEVER THE FUCK PLANET YOU ARE ON.

https://patrick.net/post/1344246&0#comment-1828713

Learn to fucking read.

OK, fine.

What do the BRICS (Brazil, Russia, India, China, and South Africa) need US dollars for?

Congratulate the Neocons for joining Russia, India and China at the hip. South Africa is a major gold producer which is why they are included.

You know why?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BRICS#History

The summit's focus was on improving the global economic situation and reforming financial institutions, and discussed how the four countries could better co-operate in the future. There was further discussion of ways that developing countries, such as 3/4 of the BRIC members, could become more involved in global affairs.

So.... Why exactly do they need US toiler paper?

I remember hearing about the BRICS over 10 years ago. It was THEN heralded as the end of the petrodollar.

The problem with the current "reserve" currency is that the US just keeps making more of it. They don't do any work to make it. It's astounding that the world hasn't abandoned it yet. It seems like the only reason that the rest of world keeps to it, is that they are either bribed, blackmailed, threatened, or murdered to stay in it.

About 20% of Russia's GDP was imported goods and services as of 2017.

When you are talking that percentage of an entire economy it is a lot of everything. Russia was and still is connected to the international economy.

https://www.cia.gov/the-world-factbook/countries/russia/#economy

Misc says

About 20% of Russia's GDP was imported goods and services as of 2017.

When you are talking that percentage of an entire economy it is a lot of everything. Russia was and still is connected to the international economy.

https://www.cia.gov/the-world-factbook/countries/russia/#economy

I'm looking at the Imports - commodities:

cars and vehicle parts, packaged medicines, broadcasting equipment, aircraft, computers (2019)

They import some electricity. 1.377 billion kWh, but export 12.116.

They do import some refined petroleum products. and natural gas. I don't know from where and if it's from Europe.

My point, is they don't have heavy external dependence, and even their dependence might be entirely luxury goods. The only think I see in there is computers, and I think (well almost know) they can source from China directly for that. Cars and car parts may become a problem in the long term. I know there is a "not" BMW plant or two in Russia - they don't technically import, but they build the cars in Russia, and it's BMW but I don't think its labelled that way. This is to get around sanctions. I doubt that's labelled as an import though.

My point is I think Europe is FAR more dependent on Russia than the other way around. Another thing is, I'm not certain this conflict between Russia and the US is really a war against Russia - it may be the US has gone to war with the EU and is using this war to wage it.

When imports are 20% of your entire economy its more than just luxury goods

In the US it is about 10% of GDP and you see how much bitching there is on reliance on China imports.

cisTits says

To trade with other countries in dollars because that is the world's reserve currency.

OR you can just do currency swaps. Russia is a net exporter, all they need to do is request the nation purchasing their energy (which is mostly what they export), to pay in Rubles to do it, or Renminbi, or gold, or whatever.cisTits says

China and Russia even had a deal to swap yuan but the Chinese backed out, leaving Russia with a load of yuan that not even the Chinese wanted.

I doubt it. Nothing prevents Russia from going into China and spending the Renminbi.

cisTits says

Yes, the dollar is shit. But RELATIVELY against other currencies, it is the best game in town. Gold is probably an exception. The Russians have proved this.

Russia isn't going to stop trading with China, and India CANNOT stop trading with Russia. They are highly dependent on Russian energy. Even if they wanted to go along with US sanctions, they can't, they'd end up with likely food shortages then revolution.

cisTits says

BTW, in the last 30+ years, which countries have seriously tried to set up gold standard currencies OR considered just conducting international trade in gold?

Yugoslavia, Iraq, and Libya.

Didn't know about Yugoslavia.

Russia isn't Iraq or Libya either and India is highly dependent on Russia. If Russia really breaks up, India might be next, after a massive famine.

You forgot the wonderful example of Venezuela. Largest oil deposits in the world, all their reserves in gold.

AND no toilet paper, or pretty much anything people needed.

Misc says

You forgot the wonderful example of Venezuela. Largest oil deposits in the world, all their reserves in gold.

Yeah, they were stupid. Wasn't a very large portion of their gold at the Bank of England which they can't get back because Juan Guaido is "really" their president?

Misc says

AND no toilet paper, or pretty much anything people needed.

I don't know anything about their internal economy, and I know I cannot trust US news reports about that nation since they were made "an enemy".

Nope, they pulled their gold from the US Fed and we let them do it even though we knew they were gonna default on their bonds.

Misc says

Nope, they pulled their gold from the US Fed and we let them do it even though we knew they were gonna default on their bonds.

Mmm, I don't remember honestly, and I'm not going to look it up.

Don't know enough about the situation in Venezuela, I have a tendency to find out what is going on when my nation is fucking with it, and the fuckery hasn't reached that level. If they do a coup or a war, I'll have to do due diligence then.

The fundamental problem with government central planning is what Ludwig von Mises called the Socialist Calculation Problem. That's what imperial governments usually have. Both Russians and Chinese have long histories of imperial governments and central-planning. They need external trade to mollify the Calculation Problem and Corruption. Usually through using external price signals so their economies can know what to produce (and use what input factors). When asked how would his socialist paradise set prices on everything, Trotsky infamously said they would just copy down all the prices the night before socialist revolution. Of course that wouldn't work in the long run: technologies and available input factors change.

Historically, a sea-borne civilization had better price discovery process as various islands and ports could communicate with each other via open sea lanes whenever an existing port pseudo-monoply intermediary charges too much . . . whereas land-based trade routes tend to collapse into wars due to those trade routes are serial so the owner of one fortress along the only path has an incentive to raise taxes at the expense of the transit points both before and after his own thereby giving rise to land-based empires monopolizing a land trade route, leading to bureaucratic inefficiency, civil strife and collapse.

Ironically, the US has been witnessing the same Calculation Problem this century thanks to fiat money central banking progressing to its late stages . . . just look at the widespread "unicorn" frauds in the tech sector and the bubbles and busts (all essentially ponzi scams) in the financial sector.

I have a hard time believing Chinese can do any government-sponsored technology programs like cutting edge chip development any better than Theranos was (i.e. fraud). Whatever outfit doing it not going bankrupt would only suck even more blood from the economy upon which the sponsoring government is feeding off. After seeing how easily the American Empire was prone to be captured by Communists/Fascists in recent years (visibly in the streets of 2020-2021), the world's elite investors might be thinking of transitioning to a "multi-polar" world with physical border separations to prevent systematic capture, similar to the Biblical story about God breaking up the tower building crowd into numerous countries speaking different languages. That's why they have paid agents deliberately waging losing wars in Europe, as a way of breaking up the American Empire while harvesting the bank accounts of European vassal states' citizens.